Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

hutch · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 22:46:34 pm

Thank you so much Birder!

Question: is the Baroda stamp just a revenue stamp or did it do postal service?

PS., I have sent you something in the mail! Hope it arrives unscathed!!!

Anne

birder · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:08:12 pm

A similar stamp from Madhya Bharat.

2 Anna Non- Judicial. I think the date of use is 1-2-51.

birder · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:10:02 pm

A much larger stamp from Madhya Bharat

Two Rupees "Court Fee".

birder · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:12:16 pm

Another large stamp from Madhya Bharat -- the Eight Anna.

The legend on this one is "Nyaay Shulk" which would translate into "Justice Fee".

This was probably used as a court fee stamp too.

birder · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:16:45 pm

hutch wrote:

Question: is the Baroda stamp just a revenue stamp or did it do postal service?

I can see some scribblings near the top perfs. These would indicate revenue usage.

birder · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:16:47 pm

Hutch,

Tony could not recognise the Baroda stamp !!! That is not possible at all....Our Tony can probably write a book on these stamps. Are you sure he was not under the influence..?

hutch · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:22:04 pm

Thank you again Birder. The three lion heads are obviously a distinctive Madhya Bharat emblem!

Have you any idea of what years they may have been used?

Also, with the Baroda stamps, would you like me to post up a couple of the used ones to see if you can work out a date on those?

Ah, thank you, I never even noticed those marks at the top of the Baroda stamp!!!

Thank you for your help!

Anne

birder · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 23:34:02 pm

hutch wrote:

Thank you again Birder. The three lion heads are obviously a distinctive Madhya Bharat emblem!

Have you any idea of what years they may have been used?

Also, with the Baroda stamps, would you like me to post up a couple of the used ones to see if you can work out a date on those?

Ah, thank you, I never even noticed those marks at the top of the Baroda stamp!!!

Thank you for your help!

Anne

1. The three lion heads (Ashoka Pillar, Sarnath) are an emblem of the republic of India and are found on coins, notes and official stationery. The numberplate of all cars in the Fleet of the President of India are blank but for a Brass "Three Lions" State Emblem. Since Madhya Bharat was a stop gap arrangement while all the Princely states were being merged into India, the stamps etc were probably based on designs supplied by the Government of India.

2. Madhya Bharat stamps were used mainly in 1950-57.

3. If you want to read an interesting court case regarding fiscal stamps of MadhyaBharat-- refer to http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/6364/

4. Yes. Please do post scans of your Baroda stamps.

Thanks and regards

hutch · **Posted:** Thu May 24, 2012 18:55:50 pm

Thanks Birder! Oh, and in reply to your previous comment :lol:

no, I'm sure he wasn't under the influence! Probably just as excited as I was to be taking stamps with someone who is actually interested!! :lol:

Ok, here's the other Baroda stamps

Now, this next one is interesting as it has writting on it which says 'revenue' but it also has a date stamp. Was this very common?

and the last one,

Thanks for your help Birder.

By the way, glad you like the book!

Anne

tonymacg · **Posted:** Thu May 24, 2012 21:29:14 pm

birder wrote:

Hutch,

Tony could not recognise the Baroda stamp !!! That is not possible at all....Our Tony can probably write a book on these stamps. Are you sure he was not under the influence..?

Birder, I may have had a small beer over lunch, but I was entirely compos mentis :lol:

Now, if it had been a postage stamp from the stamp issuing States ...

tonymacg · **Posted:** Thu May 24, 2012 21:32:14 pm

Anne, you do find Revenue stamps cancelled with postage type cancellations. This payroll document from Barwani is an example:

hutch · **Posted:** Thu May 24, 2012 23:36:04 pm

Thank you Tony for that! I suspected that, that wasn't an unusual occurence.

I would prefer to be getting postage stamps, and will as I go along, but in the mean time I am happy to get the revenue stamps and the postcards. the stamps are pretty cool (as they say nowadays!) and as I learn about them, I am starting to pick up the differences and can eliminate some of the issues myself :shock:

which is a big feat for me!!!

As much as you might hate it Tony, I actually do like all the different Revenue stamps! Some of them are pretty Cool! And the postcards, especially the Market ones are really nice!

In the end, it's all a learning curve and what I learn today will serve me well tomorrow!

Thanks to everyone for their help!

Anne

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 01:02:58 am

Anne, I don't really hate Revenues ... dislike them, yes, but not hate :lol:

But seriously, I do have a few Revenues in my collection. I've been studying these 1 Anna red revenues

from, of all places, Barwani for a while. And this fiscally used 3 Rupee Bundi Sacred Cow

might theoretically have been available for postal use, but I'll bet it never was.

birder · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 02:04:17 am

These are great Tony. Thanks for sharing.

birder · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 13:20:56 pm

And just what could this be? A magazine or periodical?

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 15:18:36 pm

I haven't heard of this, but you'd think there would have been plenty of juicy gossip about the doings of the rulers to fill such a publication

hutch · **Posted:** Sat Jun 09, 2012 19:38:04 pm

OK Tony, here is the stamp I got from you and the back! As you can see, it is 'typed?'. I agree that it is 1/4A. because of the 'dot' but what does the DJ mean?

It also appears to have hand written (on the hinge the numbers 36? or 38? as well as a -pound symbol!

Can I safely soak the hinge etc off or is it better to leave it alone with this other printing on it?

Anne

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sat Jun 09, 2012 20:02:24 pm

Anne, I have absolutely no idea what the inscriptions on the back mean, apart from the obvious that the '¼ A.' ought to mean 'Quarter Anna'. I was wondering if it might be connected with the Father Simons affair (http://www.kashmirstamps.ca/Simons.html), but I can't see it.

However, you can safely soak the hinge off. The inks used for the Officials were colour-fast. I just hope that you don't lose the mysterious handstamp on the back as well

hutch · **Posted:** Sat Jun 09, 2012 20:09:13 pm

Thanks Tony. I might just leave it! It's not such a big deal and maybe one day I might be able to work out what the hand written 'stuff' is. I certainly wouldn't want to loose the typed info!

Anne

birder · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 04:37:37 am

hutch wrote:

The A. D J would, in my guess, represent "Quarter Anna District Jammu". But then, I might not be correct..

birder · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 00:11:08 am

I wonder if anyone would recognise the red cancel on this nice Court fee stamp from Nepal.

The legend in the boxes on the left and right is identical. "Naalish Dastur" means "litigation" and "customary offering"... the entire phrase therefore meaning something similar to "Court Fee".

birder · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 00:12:20 am

Different cancels on Sirmoor stamps also appear to require some explanation.

birder · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 00:18:21 am

This Wadhwan also appears to be postally used ...

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 00:34:50 am

birder wrote:

Different cancels on Sirmoor stamps also appear to require some explanation.

Birder, the squared circle Nahan cancellation is certainly postal. (Nahan was the capital of Sirmoor State.) I've seen the other cancellation on what look like remainders or CTOs of the 1892 stamps, and rarely on the 1885-96 stamps. I'd suspect it of indicating CTO, like the squared circle crossed swords cancellations of Charkhari:

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 00:46:16 am

birder wrote:

This Wadhwan also appears to be postally used ...

This cancellation looks genuine to me. If it's on an SG 5, though, I wonder how postal it is. SG 5 used is rather too common for comfort, I think. Could it have been CTOed?

maptrekker · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 14:32:06 pm

Quote:

I wonder if anyone would recognise the red cancel on this nice Court fee stamp from Nepal.

The legend in the boxes on the left and right is identical. "Naalish Dastur" means "litigation" and "customary offering"... the entire phrase therefore meaning something similar to "Court Fee".

I have seen the red 6-pointed star on many court fee stamps of Nepal. It is the satkon which is composed of two overlapping triangles symbolizing the union of Shiva (represented by one triangle) and Shakti (represented by the other triangle).

The court fee stamps seem to be "cancelled" with punch holes, oval and rectangular seals, and pen and ink -- mostly all at the same time.

I wonder if the red 6-pointed star might not have a special meaning other than being a cancel.

The top inscription is "Shri Pashu Pati Nath" or Lord of the Animals as Lord Shiva said he was to be called since he had once lived by the Bagmati River in the form of a deer. The image on the stamp is Shiva Mahadheva seated among the Himalayas with trident in one hand and a deer in another. The image is similar to the Pashupati stamps of Nepal.

Timbres · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 15:16:33 pm

maptrekker wrote:

Quote:

I wonder if anyone would recognise the red cancel on this nice Court fee stamp from Nepal.
The legend in the boxes on the left and right is identical. "Naalish Dastur" means "litigation" and "customary offering"... the entire phrase therefore meaning something similar to "Court Fee".

I have seen the red 6-pointed star on many court fee stamps of Nepal. The court fee stamps seem to be "cancelled" with punch holes, oval and rectangular seals, and pen and ink -- mostly all at the same time.
I wonder if the red 6-pointed star might not have a special meaning other than being a cancel.

To my understanding, the red star may very likely be the Star of Goloka and one basic meaning is that it is a sign of knowledge (comforting in court). Here is an image taken in Katmandu, Nepal (not mine) that shows the six-pointed star:

Swami BG Narasingha provides a detailed dialog in this blog if you wish to pursue it further: http://gosai.com/writings/satkona-star- ... -of-goloka

birder · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 15:21:09 pm

Most informative. Thanks.

ikanek · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 16:11:31 pm

This star may be also an authorization mark.

hutch · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 20:51:25 pm

Hi everyone, I have got 8 Hudis Promisory notes and was wondering about the sideways arms for Bikaner State. I was told they are unrecorded but I don't feel comfortable with that as I'm sure there are more of them and I don't really know anything about them!

on the description it says "1920 Promisory notes (hundis) 4as, 6as, 12as & IR8as (KM #304-305, 309, 313). Also unrecorded 6as, 9as, 15as & 9R with arms sideways". I like them just the same!!

I've only posted two of them but if anyone wants scans of the others just let me know!

Anne

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 21:11:50 pm

Since the amounts have been paid and these Hundis are all used up (the amount in figures has been punched out as you can see)-- they are Khokha Hundis (Khokha means empty shell). Wikipedia refers to khokha hundis as Khaka Hundis and Khoka Hundis.

Nice images. Thanks for sharing.

ikanek · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 00:51:47 am

I would only add that both your shown Hundis are written in Modi script.
In the KM update I am currently working on, this variety will be surely listed - as well as several hundred additional from Bikaner.

hutch · **Posted:** Sun Jun 24, 2012 19:39:11 pm

Thanks Ikanek. Is it worth having that book? Where do you get it from? A silly question I know but what is KM? What areas does it cover? Sorry, lots of questions!!!

On another note, I really need some help with this stamp. It came in a lot of 10 supposedly Faridkot stamps that ended up having 3 Jind stamps...and this!!

I can not find it in the catalogue. I'm actually starting to think it's from an Arab country...but have no idea which one and believe me I've been through most of my catalogues

. If it isn't a State Stamp and nobody here knows where it's from, I'll post it on the board. Somebody must know!

Thanks in advance. Anne

By the way, I'll post up the others in this lot when I finish sorting them out!

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sun Jun 24, 2012 20:27:17 pm

Anne, this is another Faridkot item. It's one of the tidied up versions of the earlier handstamped types, that were produced after the Faridkot State Post Office was absorbed into the Postal Convention.

The handstamped original version was intended to be a ½ Anna stamp, but it wasn't issued during the life of the Faridkot PO. So this is the prettied-up version of an unissued stamp

peterh · **Posted:** Sun Jun 24, 2012 20:46:06 pm

Anne, KM is/are the following:

Adolph Koeppel and Raymond D. Manners. The Court Fee and Revenue Stamps of the Princely States of India: An Encyclopedia and Reference Manual, Volume I, The Adhesive Stamps, Fiscal Philatelic Foundation, New York, 1983. ISBN 0-9613773-0-5.

Adolph Koeppel and Raymond D. Manners. The Court Fee and Revenue Stamps of the Princely States of India: An Encyclopedia and Reference Manual, Volume I, The Adhesive Stamps, Supplement), Fiscal Philatelic Foundation, New York, 1986. ISBN 0-9613773-1-3.

Adolph Koeppel and Raymond D. Manners. The Court Fee and Revenue Stamps of the Princely States of India (The Stamped Paper Including Second Adhesive Stamp Supplement Volume II), Fiscal Philatelic Foundation, New York, 1989. ISBN 0-9613773-2-1.

Although these remain flawed, particularly in pricing and completeness, they are indispensable for the serious collector of the Princely States fiscals and stamped papers.

Unfortunately, they are all out-of-print and becoming quite sought after. Adolph Koeppel sadly passed away in 2009, so it's good to hear that the baton has been picked up by ikanek!

ikanek · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2012 07:37:58 am

hutch wrote:

Thanks Ikanek. Is it worth having that book? Where do you get it from? A silly question I know but what is KM? What areas does it cover? Sorry, lots of questions!!!

Peter is right about the reference.

Anne, it depends on you.

If you want to become more serious about the Indian revenues and/or stamped papers, then it is a must to have this reference.

As Peter wrote, work on the update of this reference is ongoing project which will take some time (I guess about 5 years).

ikanek · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2012 07:44:09 am

peterh wrote:

Although these remain flawed, particularly in pricing and completeness, they are indispensable for the serious collector of the Princely States fiscals and stamped papers.

Unfortunately, they are all out-of-print and becoming quite sought after. Adolph Koeppel sadly passed away in 2009, so it's good to hear that the baton has been picked up by ikanek!

Not only by me, Peter. The author team comprises four collectors, I am only one of them. Of course, we are co-operating with many other more or less specialized collectors.

In the update, most of the "flaws" and prices should be corrected. Many states will be completely rewritten and their listings much expanded.

hutch · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2012 20:25:52 pm

Wow! What can I say?

First, Tony, thank you for that information! I was really going nuts trying to ID that stamp!
Is that a date at the top of it? Trying to work it out just using the figures, I get 1923. But that is obviously not correct!? Any idea what it means?

Second, thank you very much to peterh and Ikanek for that great information. I can't say that I'll ever be a 'serious' collector, but I enjoy them enough to have wondered in the past if some of the items I have looked at on ebay and elsewhere are what they say they are.

I have avoided some things as I didn't know enough about them! With a book like that, I could make a much more informed decision! Well, except for the items I just 'like' and buy anyway! :oops:

Hey, sometimes you can just have a win!! And of course, if you 'like it' it's a win/win situation anyway!

That must be a phenomenal amount of work involved Ikanek! You deserve some congratulations, not only for you but all the others involved as well! Hope we can see a new volume out in print...sooner than 5 years...but if that what it takes? so be it! Well done!

Thanks again everyone Anne

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2012 23:54:42 pm

Anne, I make the date to be '1934'. This is most likely a Samvat year: to convert to CE years, subtract 57, which gives 1877. 1877 may have been the year the original seal/design was cut, but in any case, it was never put into use.

hutch · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2012 01:29:29 am

Ok, Tony!!! I concede...the last number is a Hyderbad Arabic 4. The second last number, I didn't spot the little extra point on the top until I had scanned it larger! So simple when you do it right from the start! Thanks for your help!

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:16:57 pm

A nice cover from Jaipur

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:17:29 pm

Another

Jaipur cover

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:19:27 pm

A cover with five stamps. Notice the funny cancels. Compare it with the image in the previous cover. These stamps have been taken from elsewhere and then stuck on this cover... Not all dealers have scruples.

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:22:33 pm

An uprated postcard from Saurashtra

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:24:04 pm

Nawab himself on cover

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:25:52 pm

Indore SERVICE stamp on Holkar card

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:26:47 pm

KGV stamp uprating Holkar cover. British stamps for paying postage in British areas.

birder · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:28:29 pm

..and the best..2Rupee stamp uprating postcard. Why !!!

hutch · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 21:54:51 pm

It certainly pays to look for things like those odd looking cancellations, doesn't it Birder! You really have to keep the thinking cap on all the time. I would initially just looked at the over all picture...shows how wrong you can be.

Here's one of my lastest purchases from Jind. Hope I have got the ID correct.

Color is a bit bright really, the actual stamp is a bit dulled to this. I have put it down to an 1882-85 thin wove paper 8A red. Catalogue no. J25. But I am a bit concerned about the extra mark below and to the right of the R in the centre. Is this normal? The catalogue picture shows a pretty clear field in this area!

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 22:25:01 pm

Anne, each of the 50 stamps in the sheet was drawn by hand onto the lithographic stone. I don't have a sheet of the 8 Anna (one might exist - anyway, it's on my to-do list), but it wouldn't surprise to learn that that position had a stray mark there.

If your stamp isn't on quite thick paper, or on laid paper, then you're right: it's a J25. A nice one, too, with those margins, enabling plating to Row 1 stamp 10


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Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

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