Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Well that is the charm of the uglies ain't it? You get to have things few people are aware of. All my collecting fields are rather obscure; I have things in my closet that cataloguers don't know even exist! Except for my love for airmails of course

It is indeed their charm. Over there in the Australian George V Heads thread, they're discussing piddling little plate flaws - and half of them have already been identified in the standard references anyway. Here amongst the Uglies, we have whole 'countries' whose status is uncertain (like Baraundha) or isn't recognized by Gibbons (like Kotah and Tonk).

This is real Philately. The rest is just stamp collecting

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I am adding one document bearing Akalkot revenue stamp.
It is a promisory note (as can be read in Hindi at top) for 100 rupees. The correct rate is one anna.

Nice...but i am still stuck with your Bonai project! 5 frames of Bonai...wow. can't wait to see it. Which exhibition are u planning to display Bonai?

I will try to exhibit it as soon as possible, but it will take some time. It was not accepted to London 2010, so I should wait maybe till 2011. Either India 2011 or Philanippon 2011.
I will ask if I could be accepted to Johannesburg, as Czech republic is not part of FIAP, but as a member of ISC I may be accepted.

By the way, today I started to write article to India Post which will have several parts.

Excellent! I'm looking forward to it.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Well my experience tells me that you need to convince the foreign Federation if you want to participate outside your continent. Try contacting PCI and they might be able to help. I tried to participate through APS at Washington 2006, but the APS declined and suggested I try contacting the India, Nepal or Pakistan federation.
Good luck on your article. I am planning something similar for Kishangarh, but the rates still baffle me...but I'll get by with little help from my friends
Please let me know if how far you can help me.

Zarif, I will try to find information about the rates on your documents, but please give me some time. I think it will be useful to send all scans in higher resolution to my email.

I also like many types of seals which are often found on documents. Some of them are eye-appealing. I have beautiful document from Bamra - small but with court seal in the shape of shield.

I think that in Kishangarh were good number of various courts.
The complete list should be included in any Administrative report of Kishangarh. I have similar copy for Bonai state - and in this state several courts and magistrates existed. So, I guess that about 20 courts may exist in Kishangarh. I think that many of them could be deduced from documents and seals on them.

Jiri, is it possible to have the title page of your bonai exhibit? I have all the copies of your exhibit posted in japhila.cz Do you have others that are not posted? I think exhibits are a great learning tool and the japhila site is excellent. I only wish it had more Indian exhibits...maybe Bangladesh too.

Zarif, write me email and I will send it to you. It is not in the final form (as sent with application form). I could also send you Synopsis. I think I will slightly revise them when I will exhibit them already.
I have upgraded my exhibit "India state revenues" but I had no time to scan it.

I will strongly invite if Tony could place on Exponet his Barwani exhibit.

Regards Bangladesh, in Czech republic is one one-frame exhibit on provisional Bangladesh overprints on Pakistan stamps. But the guy is nearly every time outside (Bulgaria or USA).

Jiri, my Barwani isn't mounted and written up. It's all scattered about through four stockbooks. The trouble is that I keep on finding new things to follow up - so I can never feel that the collection is finished enough to show. Still, some day I will get organized and set it out properly, and then I'll be happy to display it!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I enjoy exhibiting immensely. The foremost reason...it let's you know of the gaps in your collection. The old-school 'traditional' collecting no longer exist. One must now try to encompass all aspects of philately into consideration in order to make a good collection, and yes an exhibit.
I for one perfectly understand if someone wishes to just plate the 1d Red of great britain and his complete reluctance to include postmarks into his collection. But I will say this, that he is missing out a lot of fun that is philately.
I have an exhibit of Kishangarh that did fairly well at China 99. And it pointed out gaps in my study of the subject...rating just to name one. (Jiri will probably be kind to my pursuance for rating the documents ).
People say, exhibiting rules puts borders in your collection. Well, I say yes it does. But it takes a maverick to shatter down the borders and be innovative. If you are up to some constructive criticism, and some 'rude' remarks as well, may be in your day you will have the final laugh.
I love collecting. But what I love most is the look of envy on another collector's face. Priceless. Only exhibiting can do that...maybe writing and also giving displays in societies. But that is something equally amazing in the first place.

Zarif, you make some excellent points in favour of exhibiting. I should say I'm not implacably opposed to the idea - rather that the desire to show (off) what I have is constantly at war with a deep-seated laziness. So far, laziness is winning.

However, recently GJ50 kindly encouraged me to apply to and helped me get accepted by the Royal Philatelic Society of Victoria. If I can ever get away from work long enough to attend, I will have to make the effort to assemble my collection into a presentable presentation form. When that terrible day dawns, I'll post some of the results here, and perhaps offer them to japhila.cz, in case they're interested.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

This arrived today



It appears to be (most of) the receipts for pay to the Barwani Military Band for September 1925. Interesting for a couple of reasons:
- It actually has a date. It's so hard to find dates for these 1 Anna red Revenues.
- These are clean-cut perf 11, but apparently on wove paper. The perforation is the same as was being used for the contemporary postage stamps, SG 19 (the 1925 ¼ Anna blue on laid paper). I've long had questions about the perforations of Barwani stamps. Why did Barwani before and after 1925 use the dreadful old 7 gauge perforator, and only in 1925 use this nice, clean cutting gauge 11 machine? It doesn't seem to make sense.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Nice piece, I think I don't have much documents from Barwani if any. This usage is typical for many India Princely States. Therefore, it is quite difficult to find them in multiples.

For Court Fees and revenues perforation gauge about 11 was used for several types and from about 1925 till 1940. Most probably one printing of postage stamps were perforated by machines used primarily for revenues. This may be in error or some perforation trial. But the truth may be totally different.

Jiri, I just can't understand why the Barwani printers in 1925 were producing nicely perforated stamps (even if the print quality wasn't too good ) and then in 1927 they were producing perforations like this



(SG 20)

It seems very strange!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

First part of article about Bonai state revenues were sent to Sandeep Jaiswal - editor of India Post. So, it should be published in next issue of India Post.

Tony, maybe they focused rather on the Court Fee and Non-judicial Stamps as they could bear more income than postage stamps. So, the clean-cut perforation 11 on one issue of postage stamps may be some trial.
But also for various issues Barwani used different perforation gauges, some of them were not likely used for postage stamps.

Maybe the reason could be that this perforator broke down and another (old) one was used.

Another state is Alwar. Alwar is much known as it issued and used postage stamps. Alwar had an area of 3,158 square miles and nowadays lies in Rajasthan Union state.

Alwar issued several series of adhesives and stamped papers.

The first issue is Type 5:



Several printings are known, they distinguish by shade of color (pale green, green, grey-green). This Type was in use between 1910-1925.

In 1914-1918 there was shortage of some values and provisionals were made applying crude circular handstamp with new denomination:



1 anna on 4 annas value.

Second series is Type 10 (about 1920-1925):



Different perforations are known, even e.g. 14 x 14 x 11 x 14.

Third series (Type 15) replaced Second series, bearing updated Coat-of-Arms:



Fourth series (Type 16) was issued then, redrawn with smaller crown in Coat-of-Arms:

KM Types 5 to 16 were issued perforated only, the next two series are known only imperforate.

Type 17:



Type 18:



with Rajasthan State overprint.

The difference between these two types is the position of crown in Coat-of-Arms. Both series were valid between 1940-1949. Please note that many examples from Types 16-18 bear overprint Rajasthan in use after Independence.

In my collection is also eye-catching pre-printing fold from Type 17:

Then, 5 series of smaller Revenues for general purposes (or Non-judicials) are known (mostly differences are in Coat-of-Arms series, type of printing and perforations).

Type 30 - about 1910:



Type 31 - change of Coat-of-Arms:



Proof of Type 31 imperforate in carmine-red color.

Type 32: I don´t have now some reasonable scan.

Type 33:



Type 34:

Nice!

Jiri, do have any notes regarding plating of these issues, if at all possible?

I think it will be quite hard to plate these issues. They were generally printed in England in good quality and therefore plating will not be easy.
I tried with one Bharatpur type which is very similar to Alwar type 5, and I was not successful.

Plating of revenues poses a challenge as opposed to postage stamps of the uglies. Multiples are hard to find in case of most states- Mewar and Kishangarh are two obvious exceptions If you remember, we tried plating some Mewar documents some considerable time ago. Have you progressed any further?
Plating Kishangarh would be quite a challenge. I am looking for a head start on it...but most of the earlier types were printed from single dies!
I wish Rajgarh could be plated...one of my favourite states...
Any luck with Bonai?

Plating is generally quite difficult especially in the cases of high quality prints. But this is not case of India Princely States stamps or revenues. India states used very primitive printing methods and many small faults and flaws in designs could be found. Due to primitive printing methods many settings of various issues are known and this makes plating more difficult. And now more specifically to the above-mentioned states:

Mewar - many plates and plate compositions exist. The most difficult for plating will be the bicolored type 40. I found that for each shade of them, most probably different arrangement of plate were used. I didn´t progress now as I focused on some other states.

Kishangarh - plating except prints from single dies should be quite easy as no more than 20 stamps were in the sheets.

Rajgarh - basic series bearing portrait - I did not try them now, overprints have many flaws and this could be easy if some large blocks of them could be found.

Bonai - my favorite state:
1) Overprints on British India - most likely not possible to plate - no errors in overprints and no blocks are available now. My largest is block of 4 and this is the only seen block of overprints yet.
2) Portrait type - have not seen any multiples. I could generally found 2 varieties of each value and each color. But there are some deviations. More details will be discussed in Part 2 of article I would write for India Post.
3) Handstamped or machine stamped issues - most likely stamped from single dies.
4) Small issues for Non-judicial use - I have 11 varieties of handdrawn dies, but some other should exist. I have only single items, violet and red issues were printed from the same printing plate.

By the way, I plate successfully Bharatpur Type 23 (issued in sheets of 28 - 7x4), Banswara Type 7 and found 10 varieties for Karauli Type 20.

I do not have any Rajgarh materials with me but I have seen some large collections of the state offered at fabulous prices! But none showed any plating study. It is relatively easy to attribute flaws that may or may not be constant. However, pinning them to an exact location in the composition of the sheet is next to impossible, unless you have plenty of blocks to study. And as far as my knowledge goes, and I may be wrong, large multiples do not exist except for a few states!

I am currently focused on Kishangarh, but Mewar is definitely my next project once I attain a certain level with Kishangarh and it may take years.

Regarding the composition of Kishangarh issues-

1. Type 10. Abdul Mollah shows a partial sheet of 11+1. But this does not seem like a complete sheet to me. i have been informed by Somani that the actual sheet was of 20.

2. Type 11. No clue what so ever. If type 10 was indeed a composition of 20, chances are type 11 was something of a similar order.

3. type 20. 1 anna. Stanley Gibbons list the composition of Sg 1/2 as 4x2. Peter Rover showed a block of Sg 1 Green which was indeed a sheet of 8. He however, postulates that Sg 2 or 1 anna blue was printed in multiples of 8- 8/16/24. I think he has it right based on the material that I have. However, although I have strips of 4 vertical as well as horizontal, the largest block that I have is of 4.

type 20. other denominations- Mollah shows a sheet of 20 (5 Rs chocolate)

4. type 21. These were most certainly sheets of 144 (12x12). Many mint sheets albeit of postal colours exist.

5. type 25. 4x5. I have complete sheets in my collection and then there are postal mints.

6. Type 27. Sheets of 20. individual stamps can be pinned to their exact location based on constant flaws, comparing to mint sheets available.

7. Type 29. Sheets of 10/20. The unsurfaced wove paper issues were printed in sheets of 10 (5x2) only.

8. Type 31. perkins bacon issue. No idea regarding composition.

This is as far as my knowledge goes. I would appreciate if you or anyone can correct or add to the information provided.

Regarding plating, I am more of postal person. I prefer the same approach to revenues. Documents appeal more to me than individual stamps. However, one reason why I chose Indian states revenues is because of plating opportunities at nominal price. I am however, still a novice when it comes to the real deal.

Zarif, I think you are right about plate compositions in Kishangarh state revenues.

Through my Christmas vacations I looked more carefully to Bonai portrait type and I found I was probably wrong. Now, it seems to me that this type was printed either from single die or multiplication of single dies. However, this is complicated by the several different printings but with the same printing process.

I have found 2 or 3 varieties for each denomination and each variety could be positively matched with color. For example, 1 anna (unrecorded and rare value) black or grey-black was issued in 1939 and later in 1941, these two printings could be distinguished according to the style of value letters (English and Oriya, both).

Only 12 annas denomination is an exception. I found the same value letters and style for 2 completely different shades. I think this value was the most used and more printings were required.

I am not sure but I think it could be possible that several plates might be used for printing of revenue stamps.

So, I continue with showing of some usage of Alwar court fee stamps.

The first example is use of provisional 1 anna on 4 annas:



This document is dated 1914, so it seems to be an early usage of these provisionals. As it is 1 anna rate, most likely this is some petition.

The second document with 1 rupee of Type 16 is dated 1942:



This could be among others, Power of Attorney or Affidavit.

The third document bears 1 rupee of Type 18:



Document is dated 1948.

The fourth and last example is a combination usage of court fees of Alwar and Jaipur, both with circular Rajasthan overprint (applied by hand only):



Document is dated 1951, bears a pair of 2 annas, Alwar Type 18 and Jaipur Type 18, 8 annas. This is a True Copy with total rate 12 annas which is correct as per back of document:



The most interesting are calculations of various payments above handstamped table and of course the table. The rate 12 annas is shown in Table as III) in 6th column.

Jiri,
Excellent. It would most wonderful if you could share parts of your research as you go along the states alphabetically.
I will try to post my Kishangarh materials as soon as possible. Btw, you never sent the Bonai title page. Please do when you have time.

I mentioned on several places that additional varieties exist. Also, some unlisted types are shown and will be shown in later additions. The most important research from A states will be in Athmallik state.


Email sent, sorry for delay. Please let me know if arrived safely.

Alwar issued also several stamped paper series for several specific usages.
The first is for Hundis.
Three types are listed in KM. Here, 2 annas of Type 10:



All these Hundis are very scarce.

Second issue is provisional issue, where Court Fee issue was converted to Non-judicial by overprint:



Only 3 values are known from this Type.

The third group is Mohar Stamp:



These papers are most likely the first issued. They are known used around 1885. They are not so much scarce as hundi papers.

Another early stamped paper type is Type 20:



This type is much scarcer than Type 18 (Mohar stamp). Two dates are known - 1883 and 1893.

Much later, around 1935 Alwar issued several design, all with coat-of-arms in central part.

Type 22:


Type 25 - not listed yet:

And finally several series, all of them look very similarly, they differ mostly in the printer inscription at right bottom:

Type 34: GOVT PRESS, ALWAR



Type 36: WATERLOW & SONS



Other series exist either with no imprint (Type 32) or STATE PRESS, ALWAR (Type 30) or THOMAS DE LA RUE (Type 40)-with changed coat-of-arms.

Here is photo of beautiful watermark (taken through light source) which bear most of the above-mentioned paper series:

Stamped paper of 20 rupees uprated with 2x 2 rupees and 2x4 annas court fees, totally paying rate of 24 rupees 8 annas:



Stamped paper of 10 rupees uprated with irregular block of 6 of 1 rupee, 8 annas and 4 annas court fees, totally paying rate of 16 rupees 12 annas:

Jiri, nice scans. I was always interested in Rajasthan states and especially the Rajasthan overprints on princely state stamps.
Looking forward to more posts.
Btw, do you have any information on the rating of hundis? Was it the same as India proper of did each state tax at different rates?

Thanks, Zarif.
It is hard to say if all states have the same rates as in British India. But I think it could be the same. I have not yet studied this as I don´t have many hundis.

Can anyone identify this item? I assume it is a revenue. Thanks.

It is a revenue stamped paper of Kuchaman. Kuchaman was a district of larger and much more known state of Jodhpur.
The deep violet handstamp reads "Pai Pepar Kuchaman" = one pies paper of Kuchaman. This Type is listed in Koeppel-Manners handbook as Type 30. I have several shades of violet, purple and blue in my collection. Its current value is low - around 2-3 USD.

I have several folded documents with different hand stamps which I thought were just seals. After looking at various StampBoards posts, I now think they may be stamped revenues. Thank you for identifying this one.

Can you please identify the origin of this revenue? Thank you.

This is a receipt of payment from Princely State of Karauli. Unfortunately, the identity of state is in the central control handstamp and it is not written on document.

Control handstamp? Then am I correct in thinking that this is therefore not a revenue?