Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

World's No#1 place to discuss STAMP COLLECTING and PHILATELY!
 

ZERO cost to ANYONE  -  NO annoying ads everywhere!

It is currently Wed May 22, 2013 18:05:38 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 01:32:15 am 
Online
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 10:09:30 am
Posts: 917
Location: United Kingdom
Image

Another one from the loft - three and a half months since I had it re-insulated and cleared absolutely everything out of it. :mrgreen:

There were quite a lot of British official envelopes from the period of late 1981 through to mid-1983. These had all been put in a box, but are quite interesting 30 years later.

The Official Paid service was abolished in 1983 according to everything I have found by searching Google etc (or late 1982 according to just one source I also found on Google). The envelopes (and a very few postal cards and labels) therefore cover the end of the period.

The Official Paid 'stamp' is at first used as it comes, with or without an extra "1" at the side for First Class use. The stamps later get obliterated with black squares or crosses and a variety of paid marks - or definitive adhesives in some places - are used to show that postage, now payable to the Post Office, has indeed been paid.

Some branches of officialdom seem to have been less official than others. They are using stamps etc with no "Official Paid" indicium before the changeover - long before from examples I have from other sources. These others seem to be more "fringe" than large administrative offices of Ministries or Departments of State.

Some establishments which according to the National Archives are at the same level of the hierarchy use Official Paid envelopes with an indicium while others use envelopes with just "On Her Majesty's Service" but no indicium.

The Ministry of Defence is a good example of this with Official Paid indicia, adhesive stamps, circular Official Paid marks, Forces Post Office marks and meter franks all being used from different offices.

AND... Postage Paid Impressions (PPI) which is what is on the envelope in the picture. But it is not from the Ministry of Defence, as the MOD number is "PHQ 334".

PPIs in this format were first used in 1968 when First and Second Class postage was introduced, according to http://www.goring1941.freeserve.co.uk/postmark.html:

Quote:
In 1968 the two-tier letter post system was introduced and PPIs were quickly revised to incorporate a large '1' or '2' for First and Second Class or 'R' for 2nd Class rebated mail. Soon 'P' for Parcel post was added and a few dual-purpose PPIs with 'R2' (Rebated or standard 2nd) or '2P' (2nd class letter or parcel) also appeared.


Most PPIs that are still around are printed directly onto the envelope or card. The ones that were used on OHMS envelopes were printed onto the envelopes after the changeover in 1983. But envelopes still in stock usually either had them hand stamped directly onto the original envelope either next to the obliterated original Official Paid indicium or in the blank space at the top right. Some are printed on next to an obliterated indicium but this seems to be not very common.

The one illustrated here seems to be unusual - but maybe it's because I've got a stock of only about 200 examples. It is a second class PPI printed onto a label with the obligatory large "2" and "POSTAGE PAID".

The license number is "PHQ 410". Postage sent from one town has a serial from that town, so the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre in Swansea (now the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) first used an Official Paid indicium then changed it to a second class PPI like the one shown, but with "SWANSEA / SERIAL No. 7". My latest tax disc arrived in March 2012 with "2 ROYAL MAIL / POSTAGE PAID GB / SWANSEA 7" on it, so some things change very little. Like death and taxes...

Organisations (including governmental ones) which sent stuff from more than one town were, however, given a PHQ (Post HeadQuarters) number.

The envelope above therefore is from an organisation sending stuff from more than one place. It is a governmental organisation - the envelope has an OHMS heading.

It is not one of the government departments that uses its own stationery for everything, such as the Department of Health and Social Security or various bits of the Inland Revenue. The envelope is a "Code No. 26-121" type (serial number at the bottom left) which was used by various bits of the Home Civil Service, mostly the MOD, the Ministry of Defence, which also used its own MOD envelopes and in at least one case envelopes specially printed for a particular office.

But it is not from the MOD as the MOD PPI number is "PHQ 334" for all offices.

It is not the DVLC, which has "SWANSEA / SERIAL No. 7".

It is not the Department of Education and Science Darlington Office, which has "DARLINGTON 22".

It is not the Home Office, which has "PHQ 392".

It is not the Scottish Office, which has "PHQ 330".

It is not the Boundary Commission for England, which has "LONDON WC 96".

It is not the Inland Revenue, which has "PHQ 145".

It is not HM Customs and Excise, which has "PHQ SERIAL No. 412".

It is not HM Stationery Office, which has "PHQ SERIAL NO 340" (Large "O" in "NO", it's not a typo).

It is not the British Library Lending Division, which has "LEEDS SERIAL No. 36".

It is not the Office of the Paymaster General, which has "CRAWLEY Serial 1" (with Serial in mixed case unlike the other ones with "SERIAL ".

So where is it from?

I found some stuff on Stampboards about Australian PPIs and a few mentions of other British PPIs and something about South African PPIs. But nothing which helps here.

I have Googled etc away and can't find ANY list of PPIs identified by number anywhere. Other than one source which listed everything from the Channel Islands, but not mainland Britain and Northern Ireland. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Does anyone please know of a source which might give a clue to this envelope's origin?

_________________
You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 02:28:39 am 
Offline
GOLD Shooting Star Stampboards LEGEND!
GOLD Shooting Star Stampboards LEGEND!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 01:17:37 am
Posts: 8448
Location: Fragrant Harbour, Hong Kong
Mod Note: Title edited to include the country concerned.

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 03:44:59 am 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 21:51:46 pm
Posts: 10081
Location: Norfolk, England
locakart wrote:
So where is it from?

I know where it is to - in case you don't, it is the British Library Lending Division.

""Code No. 26-121" type (serial number at the bottom left) which was used by various bits of the Home Civil Service," - it is a stock envelope available to all departments from HMSO. Any department could use it but some had customised stationery.

If you haven't already looked at the British Postmark Society website, try this, and 'email Keith'. I'm a member but don't have my journals organised - and they don't go back that far.

_________________
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 05:15:32 am 
Online
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 10:09:30 am
Posts: 917
Location: United Kingdom
norvic wrote:
locakart wrote:
So where is it from?

I know where it is to - in case you don't, it is the British Library Lending Division.

""Code No. 26-121" type (serial number at the bottom left) which was used by various bits of the Home Civil Service," - it is a stock envelope available to all departments from HMSO. Any department could use it but some had customised stationery.

If you haven't already looked at the British Postmark Society website, try this, and 'email Keith'. I'm a member but don't have my journals organised - and they don't go back that far.


An interim thanks. As an former librarian, I knew about the British Library Lending Division, later the British Library Document Supply Centre. The initial post got a bit long, so I edited the bit out which mentioned where it was going. :)

The large pile of OHMS envelopes I am working through has 265 different examples after 'de-duplication'. Within the 265 there are no less than 192 :!: different serials plus some examples with no serial.

There are several "Code No. 26-121" examples among them. There are also long format "Code No. 26-127" envelopes, a smaller "Code No. 26-133" and "Code No. 26-152" and a "Code No. 26-161" which is a window version of the "Code No. 26-121".

Then there are several "Code No. 27-NNN" envelopes. These are also envelopes which could be used by any department.

Maybe it's the sample I had in my loft, but most of these "any department envelopes" were in fact used by establishments which came under the Ministry of Defence. There are 16 different identifiable MOD establishments in the sample, mostly identifiable by address cachets. The two exceptions are the House of Lords and HM Customs and Excise.

The MOD also had its own envelope series with the serial "MOD Form NNN" with at least 9 different numbers in the NNN bit. Nearly all in use in the same short time period of late 1981 to mid 1983. A plethora of choice for whoever did the stationery ordering.

The only other government department with such a range of stationery seems to be HM Inspector of Taxes, but that's because they were using envelopes with printed return addresses on them for each local office.

Thanks for the pointer towards the British Postmark Society website. I will have a look there.

_________________
You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 08:34:03 am 
Online
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 10:09:30 am
Posts: 917
Location: United Kingdom
On checking official envelopes from outside the 1981-1983 period, I have a couple used in the early 1970s by Electoral Registration Officers. Both are small window envelopes with the serial "RP 51".

"RP" seems to stand for "Representation of the People (Act)" from the Electoral Registration postal cards, which have long serials starting with "H.O. R.P.F.8" and finishing with what is obviously a printer's imprint rather than a serial to be used for ordering items. The "H.O." stands for Home Office.

The "RP 51" envelopes (but not the cards) have a return address on them for the local registration office. I have two with pre-printed addresses, one for a Rural District Council, one for an Urban District Council. RDCs and UDCs were abolished in the 1974 local government reorganisation.

There were 472 RDCs and 807 UDCs in England and Wales in the period 1965-1974. So if they all used the same envelope, but with a different return address, then I would only have 1277 to go if I aimed for a complete set. :!:

_________________
You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:25:14 am 
Offline
Blue Star less than 5 posts NEWBIE!
Blue Star less than 5 posts NEWBIE!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 01:45:17 am
Posts: 2
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
This is a very late reply but I've only just seen the post.

"An Introduction to UK 1st and 2nd Class Official Mail" (Jack A Gunn and Alastair J Gunn, 2007) notes on p27 that PHQ 410 was used by the Department of the Environment. If memory serves me right, the Department of Transport also used 410 when the two Departments were co-located on Marsham Street; I have a vague recollection of seeing envelopes with a "T" for "Transport" written on them, presumably so the shared postroom would know to which Department to charge the postage.

The Gunns' example had an adhesive label like yours but was from 1986.

The 26- and 27- series of envelopes were indeed a standard range of envelopes sold to Government departments by Her Majesty's Stationery Office in the 1970s-1990s. When HMSO was privatised the codes changed: for example a DL non-window OHMS envelope which was previously 26-127 is now 901-0002. (For a time, the colour of the printing changed to blue which was the corporate colour for the privatised Stationery Office's new "Banner" range, though in due course it changed back to black.)

I think the following is a reasonably complete catalogue of codes for the OHMS range available in the 1970s-1990s. 26- series envelopes were "banker" format, ie they opened on the long side; 27-series were "pocket" format.

26-152 - 3.5" x 6"
26-121 - C6
26-161 - "Service C6" window *
26-127 - DL
26-162 - DL window
27-11 - 9" x 4", the old foolscap OHMS envelope, which (perhaps remarkably) Banner Business Supplies still carried until recently
27-39 - 9.25" x 4.75", often used to enclose a DL envelope which carried a security marking
27-21 - C5
27-22 - 10" x 7", though I also have a 1970 example coded 27-51
27-23 - 10" x 8" (I think - this was rarely seen and my example of it got lost in a clear-out)
27-24 - 15" x 6", for legal documents
27-28 - 12" x 5", for legal documents
27-44 - 10 5/8" x 8 1/2"
27-46 - 12" x 10"
27-74 - C4
27-31 - 14" x 9"
27-32 - 15" x 10"
27-33 - 16" x 12"

* The Civil Service adopted a window envelope slightly smaller than the ISO C6, the reason being that a standard C6 allowed the letter enclosed too much movement and was liable to mean that the address and window didn't line up as it got knocked about through the post.

I have an interesting example of a 26-140 which is a DL non-window OHMS envelope but with a House of Commons crest on the back.

There were also envelopes without gum which were sealed with a gummed label on which the address was written or typed, and were designed to be reused, mainly for internal mail. I have a 26-131 in C6 size, 26-141 in DL. But by the time I arrived in the Service in the late 1980s they were very rarely seen; in fact I remember seeing only one example.

Pre-1970s other 26- series envelopes were available reflecting a wider range of Imperial sizes, and the fact that many letters seem to have been typed on quite small pieces of paper. I am building my collection of these but haven't dealt with them as it would make an excruciatingly boring post even worse.

There were three envelopes printed ON HER BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S SERVICE generally available, for mail going abroad or mail from diplomatic stations:

23-75 - 10" x 7"
23-82 - 14" x 9"
[can't find an example to hand] - 15" x 10"

There were also plain envelopes (ie not marked "On Her Majesty's Service") available in the same ranges; for example a DL window plain envelope was codemarked 26-165.

Some offices used DL and C6 envelopes without the OHMS but with the Royal Arms printed on the reverse: 26-133 in C6 (though I have an example codemarked 26-125, which may have been a printing error) and 26-138 in DL. Airmail envelopes (which, unusually, were white) with crests were also available; I have a C6 example code 23-140 and will be looking to find a DL one.

Cream and azure blue envelopes printed or die-stamped with the Royal Arms were also available in the standard range. They were used with the die-stamped stationery supplied to senior officers at Assistant Secretary level and above.

I know more about this than can possibly be healthy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 03:50:13 am 
Online
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 10:09:30 am
Posts: 917
Location: United Kingdom
gwjohnston wrote:
I know more about this than can possibly be healthy.


I've just about finished sorting out my heap of OHMS envelopes, cards, labels, aerogrammes, etc - 417 different types and/or usages at last count. :D

I have done this now because I am not very healthy at the moment - I am recovering from an eye operation and so cannot use the computer for any length of time without it causing problems. :cry:

As there is hardly anything above the most simplistic level about these on the web, then it's been old-fashioned table top stuff sorting things into ever smaller piles.

But you know much more than me. Thank you very much for the information. :!:

_________________
You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 09:58:00 am 
Offline
Senior Member Advanced Stamp Board Guru
Senior Member Advanced Stamp Board Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 06:49:21 am
Posts: 149
Location: Eastleigh England
A small correction is needed in the Subject Title. PPIs are not pre-paid.

The procedure for PPIs is that the sender is invoiced for each days posting. Payment is then collected by direct debit two/three weeks after the letters were posted.

_________________
Jan Kosniowski - always seeking newspaper wrappers
http://www.stampdomain.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 19:04:57 pm 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 21:51:46 pm
Posts: 10081
Location: Norfolk, England
Spencer wrote:
A small correction is needed in the Subject Title. PPIs are not pre-paid.

The procedure for PPIs is that the sender is invoiced for each days posting. Payment is then collected by direct debit two/three weeks after the letters were posted.

Yes, it should read "postage-paid" but I doubt if there are enough characters available in the title.

_________________
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 22:28:27 pm 
Online
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 10:09:30 am
Posts: 917
Location: United Kingdom
gwjohnston wrote:
This is a very late reply but I've only just seen the post.

"An Introduction to UK 1st and 2nd Class Official Mail" (Jack A Gunn and Alastair J Gunn, 2007) notes on p27 that PHQ 410 was used by the Department of the Environment. If memory serves me right, the Department of Transport also used 410 when the two Departments were co-located on Marsham Street; I have a vague recollection of seeing envelopes with a "T" for "Transport" written on them, presumably so the shared postroom would know to which Department to charge the postage.



I had a good look round the web and found a copy of An Introduction to U.K. 1st and 2nd Class Official Mail for sale.

So I bought it :!:

A great source of information - thanks for pointing me towards it.

_________________
You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


A powerful Google Custom Search Engine for JUST This Site

 

 

Loading
 
          

Click For Our Newest Issues

Click for our Current Auction

Internet Auctions-Buy & Sell Stamps

Melbourne 2013 - May 10-15

        

 
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.209s | 16 Queries | GZIP : On ]