Old Schwaneberger Albums - I need 2 in the set

John_K · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 23:42:52 pm

Hi All,

In my first post in the "introduce youself thread" I alluded to a set of albums that I will be inheriting in the future. The albums are from circa 1910-1913. As far as we can tell there were 6 albums in total. Sadly two of the albums were lost/sold/not quite sure what happened during WW2,

A good 15 years ago the albums and their contents were evaluated and it was advised that the albums themselves are worth more than the collections they hold. I've decided that my quest from now until they day I pop my clogs is to search and find these albums so the whole set can be together again.

I've done a quick Google but unfortunately not much information is forthcoming (mainly Ebay auctions etc).

I was wondering whether anyone here has ever seen this make and age of album anywhere, and whether someone has more information about the publishers etc? All I've got to go on for the moment is the name. Hopefully sometime this week I can get some pics of the albums posted up for all to see. I'm interested in the hows and whys and of course if anyone has ever seen 2 albums missing 4 of their partner volumes

Thanks in advance!

John

The Pom · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 00:07:30 am

Schwaneberger Verlag GmbH are better known throughout Europe as their brand name "Michel" and the stamp catalogue of the same name.

http://www.ifsda.org/i/dealer.php?mid=912

http://www.michel.de/

What sections do the albums you're missing cover?

Cheers
Chris

John_K · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 00:20:25 am

If memory serves volumes 2 and 5 however don't quote me, I'll need to double check later when home. I think one of them included the letter "s" for Europe (The albums I think were per continent?) Anecdotal evidence (from my old man) says he thinks one of the countries missing is Sweden (apparently there were some valuable-ish stamps in it.) When I get a chance to get a proper look at the albums (this weekend) I'll be able to confirm for sure.

I just thought on the off chance maybe some one knew?

Thanks for those links I'll have to weave my way thru the German site (I don't speak it but I can sort of make out some of it)

Thanks for the reply!

John_K · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 09:07:31 am

If no one minds, I thought it might be an idea (good or bad) to post my progress of chasing after these missing albums here. Basically to document every step/move taken to find these albums. I do realise the progress will be slow, and this post will most definitely slump to the bottom of the thread pile most of the time. It would only get "bumped" every time I document any progress. If no one has any objections is this ok?

I'm new to the board and don't want to be stepping on any toes?

fromdownunder · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 09:50:12 am

John, I think yours is a wonderful idea. One of the key purposes of this forum revolves around research into all things philatelic, so go for it.

I am sure that looking at your research methods and progress will be equally as interesting as any results you finally get.

Norm

John_K · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 17:45:03 pm

Thanks Norm,

I'm under no illusions at all, it's going to be very, very difficult to achieve the goal, however it's always better to have tried and failed rather than not tried at all

My first port of call is to get hold of Michel as posted by The Pom

Cheers
J

John_K · **Posted:** Sat Oct 10, 2009 06:30:22 am

After a mission and a half I finally have some images of the album to help me on my quest. Apologies for the poor quality pictures, I wasn't too keen on taking scans of the albums. They've been through quite a bit in their lifetime

Missing albums are no. 2 and 4 sadly I think it includes Oz, I was hoping to post a picture of Oz stamps since the vast majority of members here seem to be Oz people. So I did the next best thing and took a picture of the Cape stamps. Earliest stamp I saw was fro 1869 at a quick glance.

Also... there's a penny black with a red cross thing on it, and 3 other stamps that look exactly the same just different colours, 2 are I think chocolate and one is blue.... not sure how rare thy are maybe someone can help?

norvic · **Posted:** Sat Oct 10, 2009 06:47:10 am

John_K wrote:

Also... there's a penny black with a red cross thing on it, and 3 other stamps that look exactly the same just different colours, 2 are I think chocolate and one is blue.... not sure how rare thy are maybe someone can help?

Don't get caught by the "it's old, it must be valuable" bug.

Penny Blacks were sold in their millions; take a look on eBay and you will see them (in poor condition) at less than £20. Almost any stamp that paid the basic inland postcard and letter rate will not be worth much; but it is the others that could be useful. The joy and entertainment will come from investigating and learning about all the stamps you have, whatever their value.

John_K · **Posted:** Sat Oct 10, 2009 07:04:59 am

norvic wrote:

John_K wrote:

Also... there's a penny black with a red cross thing on it, and 3 other stamps that look exactly the same just different colours, 2 are I think chocolate and one is blue.... not sure how rare thy are maybe someone can help?

Don't get caught by the "it's old, it must be valuable" bug.

Penny Blacks were sold in their millions; take a look on eBay and you will see them (in poor condition) at less than £20. Almost any stamp that paid the basic inland postcard and letter rate will not be worth much; but it is the others that could be useful. The joy and entertainment will come from investigating and learning about all the stamps you have, whatever their value.

Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't start collecting to make millions in fact any money at all :lol:

There's a lot of history behind all the stamps in those albums and after having a quick browse through them I'm convinced the stamps are not worth much. The albums have been through 2 world wars/concentration camps, a boat journey from Indonesia to South Africa, sat in an antique tea chest till 15 years ago. The albums have hardly been looked after very well. They wouldn't be sold ever.

Just wondering at the rarity of them. I'm sure the guys at SG will say the same as I think when I take them in to be looked at.

John_K · **Posted:** Sat Oct 10, 2009 07:44:31 am

Two more images.... apologies for the second post PhotoBucket seemed to be going nuts for a while earlier.

John_K · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2009 04:44:00 am

A quick update on this quest of mine. I'm currently at my folks place busy readying the albums for our visit to SG next week. While going through the albums I found approximately 150 stamps hidden in the album, it looks like my great great grandfather put his duplicates and mint stamps right inside the page. I found 2 penny reds and a whole load of other very interesting stamps, namely some Deutse Reich stamps, a lot of U.S. stamps and stamps of some countries/territories I've never heard of :lol:

Some of the stamps are in rather dire condition, which is understandable as the albums have been through two world wars one of which was in a concentration camp in Semerang (Indonesia I think). It's also survived a sea trip from Indonesia to Holland and then back down to South Africa.

Rather frustratingly the scanner here is not working so for now I'll just give a written summary of the interesting ones to me.

U.S. Stamps
There is an interesting blue stamp not post marked that on the top says For President, middle has a portrait of someone and at the bottom of the stamp says W.J. Bryan (I'm assuming it's not actually a postage stamp. And I'm also assuming the portrait is of W.J. Bryan.

There is a stamp that looks in mind condition on the front, of what seems like Abe Lincoln with a scroll underneath his portrait that says "1809 Feb 12 1909. Stamp is red and face value is two cents.

Another stamp is in landscape position, greenish, with a picture of a ship. A scroll above the ship says United States Inter Revenue. Under the ship in small writing it says series of 1898 and then in bigger letters the word "Documentary" appears. Face value of stamp is 1 cent. There is also what you guys called "socked on the nose postmark that says" R.J.S., Oct 4 1898". There is also a blue stamp very similar, face value is five eighths cents and instead of Documentary it has Proprietary otherwise all other text is the same.

Panama
I think this is a revenue stamp but I'm sure after I manage to get it scanned etc someone can correct me. It's green and white oblong shaped with a big R on the left hand side. Top of stamp "Republika de Panama 3de Novembre de 1903. Under it say Correos and under that is a spce I think for a serial number (nothing there looks unused). Value of stamp is 10 Diez Centavos.

Deutse Reich
Tons of these stamps in the albums, especially from Prussia and Baden. Two unused stamps from Braunschweig. Stamp backgrounds are white one with a red oval, one with a brown oval. On both stamps there is a crown and horse (In white) Values of stamps are 1 and 3 Groschen.

Egypt

Looks like a complete series of stamps of differing colours and values picture on stamps is of a pyramid and the Sphinx. One of the stamps is unused.

And breathe... I'm wishing the damned scanner worked :lol:

Madagascar
Some unused stamps very pretty with purple and red borders with pictures of some locals carrying some bloke on a stretcher/throne (my eyes are bad at the mo).

Dahomey (Yeah me neither)
Was apparently a French Colony. Stamp has face value of 5 whatevers (very scientific) Arique Occidentale Francaise. Colour is green.

Portuguese Colonies
There are two, pictures on both stamps are very similar. The stamp from Inhamebane (over print) is red and worth 25 (also over print), the picture is of a king or someone similar, Stamp says Portuguese something or another (covered by post mark). The other stamp is silver grey face value 50 (over print) from Funchal (overprint)

U.K
The penny reds, one is postmarked 466 with letter is the corner either E or L and F and the other one is postmarked ?12 letters are T and J. There is an unused green stamp face value halfpenny with a king of some description (My royal knowledge sucks).

I've gone through all the albums taken all the loose stamps out and poot them in stock sheets. A very interesting day indeed. There were one hang of a lot of Uglies (Sorry mate I can't remember your name, I know you love them). I'll get those scanned in after the SG adventure.

I also found lots of sheets of paper, with my great great grandfathers handwriting, it looks like he was keeping some sort of tally for the albums, not sure if it was number of stamps or the value. I'll scan those in sometime too.

In the middle of one of the albums I also found a re-ordering sheet for more volumes of the albums. Rather exciting I think. It's been nice today because not only have I been looking at old/interesting stamps I've also found some hand written documents fro an ancestor.

I've also managed to bore you all with this long drawn out post which would have been easier if there was a bleedin scanner. A picture is worth a 1000 words, :lol:

Brummie · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2009 09:12:40 am

Not bored at all John in fact I can't wait for the next episode :wink:

It's exciting isn't it to find things that were hidden or forgotten about and it gives them a new life. Your turn to marvel at them now. Enjoy your search.

John_K · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2009 09:51:01 am

Glad it's not that boring, and sincere apologies for the non technical terms. I'm only going to be able to scan these loose stamps in late tomorrow night. Interestingly, it's been quite a genealogical and philatelic weekend for me. Our designated family historian (who strangely is Dutch/Australian) has traced back my ancestors to Holland back to the 1760's anything before then is a mystery so far.

John_K · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:47:19 am

Here's a sample of a Dahomey stamp: It's the same as the one I found today but in much better condition and is not post marked like mine is.

John_K · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:51:34 am

Herewith the American stamps and Panama Revenue I spoke about a few posts up. If any one can furnish any information it would be appreciated!

Thanks
John

John_K · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 19:06:37 pm

When I get in from work tonight I'll post all the other loopse stamps I found

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 00:28:39 am

One of the more interesting stamps in the above pictures is the 4th stamp 2nd row, concerning a WJ Bryan and his quest to be president. I've slacked off a bit at work today to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jennings_Bryan

Quote:

William Jennings Bryan (March 19, 1860 - July 26, 1925) was the Democratic Party nominee for President of the United States in 1896, 1900 and 1908, a lawyer, and the 41st United States Secretary of State under President Woodrow Wilson. One of the most popular speakers in American history, he was noted for a deep, commanding voice. Bryan was a devout Presbyterian, a supporter of popular democracy, a critic of banks and railroads, a leader of the silverite movement in the 1890s, a leading figure in the Democratic Party, a peace advocate, a prohibitionist, an opponent of Darwinism, and one of the most prominent leaders of populism in the late 19th - and early 20th century. Because of his faith in the goodness and rightness of the common people, he was called "The Great Commoner."

In the intensely fought 1896 and 1900 elections, he was defeated by William McKinley but retained control of the Democratic Party. For presidential candidates, Bryan invented the national stumping tour. In his three presidential bids, he promoted Free Silver in 1896, anti-imperialism in 1900, and trust-busting in 1908, calling on Democrats, in cases where corporations are protected, to abandon states' rights, to fight the trusts and big banks, and embrace populist ideas. President Woodrow Wilson appointed him Secretary of State in 1913, but Wilson's handling of the Lusitania crisis in 1915 caused Bryan to resign in protest.

He was a strong supporter of Prohibition in the 1920s, and energetically attacked Darwinism and evolution, most famously at the Scopes Trial in 1925. Five days after winning the case but getting bad press, he died in his sleep.

Part of the mystery of one stamp solved woohoo! :lol:

The next mystery which I'm sure will remain unsolved is how and why my great-great grandfather got his hands on a unused version. Whether this is an actual postage stamp remains to be seen. My guess is that this Mr Bryan just stuck it on his letters to promote himself.

The fact it doesn't have a face value to me confirms this :lol:

maptrekker · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 01:01:00 am

That is not a Panama revenue. It is a registration stamp issued by the Republic of Panama in 1904 shortly after its separation from Colombia. The date of 3 November 1903 refers to its declaration of independence from Colombia.

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 01:12:56 am

Thanks maptrekker, that will be useful when I investigate further

Cheers
J

Edit: A quick check of e-bay... and I found the exact same thing

http://cgi.ebay.ph/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0468959628

jugoslavija_post · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 01:18:07 am

John, those revenues at the bottom of the page are very nice.

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 02:19:33 am

I'll scan them in later tonight so you get a better look Erik...

Philatelius · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 03:51:13 am

John, I don't see anything among the U.S. postage stamps that's exceptionally valuable. That depends in part on what varieties of those stamps you have, but most likely they're the most common varieties. You do, however, have stamps there from as far back as the 1860s.

Can you provide a bigger scan of the 3¢ George Washington stamp in the second row (second from right), preferably the back of the stamp? It looks as though it might be one of the grilled varieties. Chances are it's the most common--and therefore not worth much in that condition--but it doesn't hurt to check.

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 06:06:42 am

Erik as promised here's the Revenues

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 06:13:30 am

Philatelius, thanks for the info, here's front and back, a rather sad excuse for a stamp :lol:

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 07:48:03 am

Also in the same box the albums came in was this, not sure what was in it originally, however I was going to take the stamps off of it as I was not sure if it would qualify as a cover, or if it did whether it was worth anything as a cover. Opinions would be gratefully accepted.

Postmarked 1982 and is addressed to my grandfather and grandmother, Holland to South Africa. The back stampsof which there are 3 are Linden 1982-08-6. All in all it's a rather untidy bit of post

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 08:34:39 am

Let's call this one scan one. Again if anyone can help out I'd appreciate it.

Let's call this scan 2, and as above.

As you can see a few of the stamps look to be pretty worthless in the condition they're in.

Philatelius · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 08:56:14 am

John, re: the grilled Washington stamp...it looks like Scott No. 88 ("E" grill) to me, not the commonest but as you say little value in that condition. Thanks for providing the larger scan!

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 09:21:02 am

My pleasure! I think the album holds a few rarish stamps but I think their condition leaves a lot to be desired

And without further ado...
Let's call this scan 3:

And scan 4:

John_K · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 00:41:26 am

I've spent a fair bit of time scanning really, really ugly stamps today (Sorry Tony :lol:

)

So I had a quick browse through the albums and happened upon German Reich Stamps which look way better so far my favourite of these pages is below. They look to be unused official stamps. Not sure if they would have been hand stamped if they were used.

John_K · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 04:03:15 am

I was thinking about it. Would anyone have any idea how expensive it would be to fill the 4 gaps in the above scan?

Cheers
J

gavin-h · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 04:43:39 am

John_K wrote:

I was thinking about it. Would anyone have any idea how expensive it would be to fill the 4 gaps in the above scan?

Cheers
J

John,

You just knew they'd be the expensive ones, didn't you?

Total Michel catalogue value in 2002 was about 130 Euro for mounted (=hinged) mint. Most of the value is in the 2pfg and 25pfg; the 3pfg and 5pfg are <15 Euro for the two.

John_K · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 05:10:46 am

I had an inkling they wouldn't be cheap :lol:

Thanks Gavin, if I remember correctly you collect Germany don't you? There was 8 or 9 full pages of German Reich stamps and then countless others of what I can only think were states of Germany, like Baden etc... Either way it certainly looks like my relative enjoyed collecting German stuff. One day I'll actually scan all the albums in one bash, it's just I'd need to bring them to mine to scan them... And they're not exactly light :lol:

gavin-h · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 07:47:20 am

John_K wrote:

Thanks Gavin, if I remember correctly you collect Germany don't you?

John, yes that's right - if there're any in your albums you have any questions about, feel free to ask away and I'll do what I can.

Have to warn you, though, that my knowledge of German States is pretty basic - but my Michel Catalogue may be able to help...

John_K · **Posted:** Mon Nov 16, 2009 23:04:59 pm

Thanks Gavin, will do. I think my best bet is to do a country at a time. There's far too many pages (For me anyways :lol:

) and I'll get lost big time :-)

flip138 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 04:32:11 am

John

Do you mean "Schwaneberger" or just "Schwanberger" albums? There are plenty of Google hits for Schwanberger.

Phil

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 06:13:28 am

It's spelled Schwaneberger on the albums.

The Pom · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 06:15:42 am

I'm puzzled by flip138's post. My response to John (second post in the thread) shows it's quite clearly Schwaneberger, and if you stick it into Google, you get loads of hits to do with stamps and albums.

There may well be plenty of Google hits for Schwanberger, but none of them seem to be about stamps.

What makes you think John may have got it wrong?

Cheers
Chris

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 07:17:06 am

Just to confirm

The Pom · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 07:40:50 am

Anyone get the feeling Phil hasn't read the whole thread? :wink:

flip138 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 18:19:14 pm

No, I have been reading the thread. What triggered my question was this:

http://stampauctionnetwork.com/

Richard Allan Stamp Sales - November 2009 Auction - November 27, 2009 Welcome to our Auction 283, Closing Friday 27th November 2009 at 12 noon UK time (7:00 AM EST). This sale contains 750 All World A to Z lots with starting prices from £10. to £800.Philately would have been in its infancy when a stamp collector purchased a brand new SCHWANBERGER printed album dated 1893 and started to put stamps into it.Think about it;a "Stamps of the World" catalogue would have been a single slim volume in those days listing perhaps a few thousand stamps unlike the massive 5 volume monster of today. Having aquired just such a Schwanberger album, we have extracted from it some gems including classic German States, Hong Kong inc. a QVic 6c bearing a GB 1 Franc 80c accountancy mark & a Norway Oscar 3sk strip of five on piece.

Capitalisation added by me. Yes, it could be a typo from the stamp firm, but I was wondering if the company used two different spellings, or if there were two different companies with similar names.

Phil

The Pom · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 18:45:07 pm

A google search for "Schwanberger album" gives 33 hits.

A google search for "Schwaneberger album" gives 8870 hits.

It's a typo, affecting about 0.37% of cases.

flip138 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 19:52:50 pm

Perhaps more to the point, the album may be available for sale (unfortunately after the good stamps have been removed).

Phil

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 21:16:59 pm

Hi Phil,

Yes unfortunately I think you are correct in that assumption, if the albums exist at all any longer. They've been separated from the set since at least the second world war. Family rumour has it that there was a few rare Swedish stamps in the album. I'm inclined to think they may have been rare but in a really bad state. Most of the European countries are missing from these albums. I have one or two but that's it really.

I've done a Google once a week to look for auctions/sales where old Schwaneberger albums are for sale. No luck yet though.

Cheers
J

Brummie · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 22:09:26 pm

John how will you know they are your albums?

John_K · **Posted:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 22:17:58 pm

The albums have volume numbers on the spines. I'll look for Schwaneberger albums for sale with those specific numbers :-)

Long shot but worth a try. Very longshot actually since the pages are easily taken out as the books have a weird (to me anyway) spring sort of spine that opens and closes to allow you to add or take out pages.

I'm guessing the pages will have been taken out and sold separately.

John_K · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 00:21:22 am

An additional approach to search for the albums. I've searched on Facebook for people with the same surname as me, (there aren't that many) and I'm getting them interested in the family history/genealogy and then will mention stamps :lol:

John_K · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 01:22:09 am

Find below two scans of what I'm assuming is the re-order form for new albums and pages. Hopefully some kind soul will take the time to translate sometime (I have a much larger copy of the scan which I could mail to someone). I need to ask for advice though. The page is very, very brittle (It is after all alomost 100 years old) and I'm wanting to know how to preserve it. Has anyone got any ideas?

gavin-h · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 04:56:49 am

John,

The first sheet looks to be about ordering supplements for the Albums. These sort of albums can be updated each year, as the publishers print pages for the new stamps issued that year. It appears that the pages were available in various types of paper, and for springback albums (like yours) or for "permanent" (presumably what we now sometimes call "screw-post") albums.

There are also blank pages on offer, and there are then some suggested questions to ask yourself to ensure you're ordering the correct items.

The second sheet describes the format and layout of the album - for instance it mentions that official stamps and postage due stamps are clearly identified on the page.

I'll leave a word-for-word translation to someone with a better knowledge of German, but that hopefully gives you a flavour of it :idea:

John_K · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 05:56:42 am

Thanks Gavin! My last scan of the day...

Each one of the albums had these hand written pages in them, they're roughly A5 size. From what I can make out looks like an inventory of sorts per country. I havent scanned each one just the front page for album number 1. Dated in 1916. Look how neat the handwriting was! Certainly infinitely better than mine anyway :lol:

There's two or three pages per album, I think he had his own system of sorts. Again if anyone has any ideas on how to preserves these I'd appreciate it. The next thing I'm going to post is a list of stamps for a few countries with their Michel numbers. Anyone have any idea whether Michel numbers have changed drastically since the early 1900's?

gavin-h · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 06:24:10 am

John_K wrote:

The next thing I'm going to post is a list of stamps for a few countries with their Michel numbers. Anyone have any idea whether Michel numbers have changed drastically since the early 1900's?

I've got a Michel Whole World 1940 which might give a few pointers if you need to cross-check any numbers. :idea:


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Old Schwaneberger Albums - I need 2 in the set

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