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When in Western society one arm of Politics always sceams loudly , no the Rich should not pay more tax, the reason is their backers are the Rich.

That in itself is not a real problem balance is good , but you must realise the Rich always minimise their Taxes by creative Accounting methods in any case , so they actually pay no where near what is already designated they should pay.

The working class can only claw back a minor bit of Tax by lying, most wont, so where is the fairness, especially USA, where the only ones who have the ability to pay wont, they need a new Yacht or similar this year perhaps, saving America is not on their agenda.

Here are a few charts to add to the discussion, they are weekly charts from 2003 to date.



GBPUSD



EURUSD



EURAUD



AUDUSD



Don't worry about the indicators, they are just my trading signals.

dukeprince. I don't understand the first part of your post, so I'm going to take a guess. You're saying the rich, because the're rich. Should pay more tax? Assuming that is what you are saying.

Do you think it fair to penalise those that became 'rich' by making use of a talent or a profession. Or recognized an opening in an area which they could exploit to the betterment of themselves?

Business, any business is always a gamble and you might be suprised at how few succeed. Many of those that fail, do so as they wait for the world to come to them. Equally, many of those that suceed come from what you discribe as working class, and you won't hear much of them. The're are to busy working!

What you do hear and see a lot off is a profession the media calls celebrities. Again you might be suprised at how many of them you believe are rich, but in fact have never been able to afford to pay tax.

If you want a fair distributation of tax, and if you want to pull any country out of the mire. Then start by putting standard on the trash that keeps getting elected to govern, and then ensure they put standard on bankers and such!!

One more point. Quite a large percentage of what you call working class don't want to work. If they put the time they spend avoiding work, into actual work. Few would have any cause for complaint, and jobs would have a better chance of staying in country. Thereby providing employment.

In times of trouble you can only go to those who have the capacity to help, to go to those who have no capacity to help is a waste of time.

In normal times its different The wealthy can live free and happy and be left alone without calling on their help, ask yourself are these normal times or not for USA.

'Glen, given what is happening in Europe, I expect the US$ to strengthen somewhat over the coming months. There simply isn't an alternative currency to be in,'

I'd go for the Chinese yuan, which is basically the same as the Australian dollar...

We Australians hope / trust the Chinese boom will continue.

A huge portion of our exports depend on the Chinese economy.

The following link which was part of an business review program shows China is creating new cities to stimulate their economy, however they are not being occupied as the shopkeepers cannot afford to rent shop space, and the apartments are empty because the inflated sales prices are beyond the financial means of the population. This has resulted in brand new "ghost cities" without activity over the past two - five years.
China now cannot stop building further new cities or their own economy will seriously slow, so they compound the already serious oversupply. Not that there aren't people who need housing, etc, just that they will never earn enough to buy one.

http://tinyhacker.com/hacks/chinas-ghos ... ic-bubble/

Please watch the video & post your comments on this blog - if only to reassure me that this isn't headed for a world shattering crash.

I made mention on another thread that we are living through an adjustment in the power and wealth of the world. China is an example of that adjustment. In fact at the moment China is the perfect example. It would seem to be in the process of taking control of the wealth of the world, and I would think it is not far from making a bid for control of the power as well!

If that happens in the next couple of years, then your shattering crash is likely to happen, but in what form? I think that video was more a case of a TV crew looking for a story, rather than a credible news item. If you changed the features of those interviewed, it could be any City in Australasia, Europe, or the Americias. All with the same complaints.

I don't know a great deal about how China is governed, but I would think that a Goverment that can order a million plus people out of their homes to make way for a series of Dams. Would not hesitate to order malls and housing projects filled if it was in their interest to do so.

The video makes mention of the potential for social unrest. Thats like saying it will rain during the monsoon. Of course there will be unrest, there is in every country. It is the level of the social unrest, and the measures used to control or combat it, that will be another factor in any 'crash', and could even delay their bid for power.


A problem with letting TV crews look round the world for stories is. They never bother to mention the culture difference. What is acceptable in other cultures may not be acceptable to you. I can't imagine a rugby playing chinese proping his elbow on a bar and asking for. "A beer mate!".

Except that Chinese Yuan is not a traded currency. The Chinese Government has it pegged to the US$ and rarely revalues it. So, if the US$ goes down, so does the official value of the Yuan.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

If this is so, wouldn't it just be part of the natural order? History informs us that various economic powers have emerged and faded in the past; it seems logical to suppose the trend will continue.

My readings have led me to believe that America took up the economic baton when England began to fail during the 1800s.

Regarding the 'control of power' idea, I don't think China's really that interested. They could have pulled that stunt any time they wanted in the last few hundred years.

_________________
FORESTS OLD, PASTURES NEW
(An expert is one who knows more and more, about less and less, until they know absolutely everything about nothing at all)

mcgooley, this is getting way of the original question. That was to gather information to help me get some fresh opinions in order to assist in planning my comfortable travel arrangements. However, here we go.

I'm don't have much faith in the natural order. I'm inclined to believe that for a Country, or a business or even an individual to emerge as a power. It takes a lot more than just waiting your turn in the natural order of things. Leadership, drive and motivation comes to mind. I could also add ruthlessness and a willingness to use and exploit others. All of these are needed and used to take a country forward, your history will give you many examples of that.

To say that the US took up the 'economic baton' from a failing England in the 19th century is incorrect. Firstly, it was not England that had the economic power. It was Britian. There is a great old saying about the rise of Britian. 'It was the Irish that conqured it, The Scot that managed it, and the English that lost it!

Secondly, there were other contenders for this power. The US may have started its economy on the road in the 19th century, but it took a destructive war to eliminate the other contenders and to weaken the power holder sufficiently for the US to assume the leadership. Even that did not happen until mid way throught the 40's.

I think if you look into Chinese history over the last one hundred years or so. You might find it has never been in a position to, 'pull that stunt?'. At the beginning of the 20th century, the Dowager Empress had power and she wanted nothing to do with the world. When she died, revolution brought forth Sun-Yet-Sen. In turn his death brought forward Chiang Kai Shek.

He in turn was eventually replaced with Mao Tse Tung.[I use the name I was taught.] All at one time or another fought for control of China. It has never been a case of.'China not really interested.' It has been a case that China has never been in a position, either economically or military, until now. To be interested!

You can too and fro as much as you like , you can theorise as much as you like, the major factor will be is the US going to survive as a Wealthy World Power , if the answer is no, life in the Western World as we know it is going back big time , maybe further than we can envisage.

Europe is not going to do more than cause a drop we could live with, its the big guy Uncle Sam we need worry about.

China is ready to take advantage , I think in a non threatening way , Why make War when you can buy it cheaper, War cost money mate, but they will take advantage all the same, they are the elite bussinessmen in this period we live in, they have no constraints of trying to make Old Politicians with Axes to grind vote for it , they will just dictate it in one day , yes one day is all it takes to legislate in China.

Democracy is wonderfull for the people, I love it and admire it , and cherish it , but slow as hell to implement neccesarry changes for the survival of our way of life , too many Politicians owe sombody something , they are not free to vote for good, they have to vote to protect their Backers.

Who are the backers well I wont use the term Rich , I will use the term Powerfull , using Rich was critiscised last time I used that term, but one thing is as sure as hell, it aint the workers or the poor !

dukeprince, I intended no criticism of your post. I was merely stating it is unfair to penalise the rich in order to help the poor. It makes no sense for the rich to become poor so that the poor can become rich?? I hope that little bit of wisdom negates any criticism you may have felt.

As to the question; 'Is the US going to survive as a wealthy world power?' Frankly I don't care who is or who becomes a World power. My only concern is a happy and comfortable retirement, and to leave behind sufficient assets to allow my children and grandchildren the same.

As to what Europe does? Well it's a nice place to travel in and out off, but I would not want to live there. China..answered above. Democracy....until something better comes along. Politicians....legal but contemptible crooks! War...like the weather, unpredictable. The powerful...humble. Especially media ones.

One last pearl of wisdom. It is highly unlikely the world will go backwards. That would play havoc with my fishing, I would never be sure which is the right bank!!

Dollaryen. Do you not have a chart for the NZ$ against the GBP and the US$? If you have one, I would like to see it.

Huanga.

I think people remain confused. The Euro may go down, but that does not mean all European economies will. Germany is powering ahead, for example. Equally the EU may get greater control of monetary union and the Euro may power ahead and this may be seen as a minor blip.

The dollar will go down; with x trillions in debt (basically held by China) it can no longer bluff the world that its way is correct. It will last for a bit longer as it continues to spend money on war beyond that which it can afford. Alternative currency? Already the IMF is talking of an artificial currency 'held' by percentages of the strongest economies in the world. If not the Yuan or equivalent from Qatar, the UAE etc looks good...

China's extraordinary growth comes from the fact it is the 21st century's "workshop to the world", as Great Britain was when they gave birth to the Industrial Revolution.

The problem is that so much of China's manufacturing is exports. If the economies of Europe and the USA decline, people aren't going to be buying, so sales by Chinese factories will decline. Everyone will be worse off.

China's central bank sits on colossal foreign currency reserves. In the first quarter of 2011 they increased by as much as a country like Malaysia's entire reserves. Staff at the central bank have the unenviable task of trying to find something to 'do' with all that money. Buy currencies, buy bonds? Given the scale of their investment in the USD, they won't just sit back and watch it slide.

A common trick when investing in stock or currency is to buy more when the price declines, not panic-sell. Then your average price per unit will be lower, and you won't have to wait as long for the price to rise again to reach 'break-even' point if you really want to get out. China might step in then and play a role in keeping the USD afloat, so their ship doesn't sink.

Will people really hedge their money in the USD if there's an economic crisis, given that everyone knows the USA is sitting on a mountain of debt, has government spending worse than a shopaholic, and the printing presses for their currency seem to be jammed in overdrive? Currencies to keep your money in, should you wish to be in cash rather than gold/silver/commodities, should be ones from countries that have resources to back up their economies--Australia, Canada.

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Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

Problem is , is Germany like a housefull of people with only 1 wage earner , he has to feed the others .

Been here before. Germany then owns the others' possessions. Different ball game.

Greece spends, has assets. When the credit card comes in has to sell assets to his brother. Germany(and Euro) remains rich. Greece poor. Its just who owns the assets which move. Euro still wins.

I suppose because we are so used to hearing and seeing our news in the English language, we are inclined to believe most of what we hear. In recent months what we hear is, the economies are in danger and the World is in crisis.

In reality what is actually happening is that a couple of over inflated curriencies, that have had a reasonable reputation in years gone by, have or are on the point of imploding. So the world is not ending, and the world in not is crisis. The countries that have tied themselves into these over inflated curriecies are in crisis. Their economies are in danger.

In general the posts on this thread could be said to agree?? The US$ and the Euro are finished as the currencies at the center of the world, and while the US$ may not collapse. It will never again be held with the same confidence that it has in the past.

It is unlikely the same can be said for the Euro. That may hang on for a few more months. then we could well see a splintering of the EU, and a return to national currencies. I would agree with those that believe Greece with be abandoned, and perhaps one or two other countries will come close to it. However, there are certainly enough safe haven countries around for my wants. Norway being my favourite.


Huanga

Huanga, I think we fundamentally disagree! The US$ is weaker when the risk appetite is higher. However, if there is any problem (real or perceived) that unsettles the markets then the immediate reaction (on a global scale) is to rush to the safe haven of US$. In particular, everybody then wants US Treasuries and all other currencies decline (relative to the US$).

Take just last night (our time). Risk appetite was back and teh A$ rose nearly a full cent against the greenback. The NZ$ is at 30 year highs against the US$. Even the Euro went up a couple of cents and gold fell. Safe havens? Who needs safe havens, the Europeans are going to save the EURO! Yay!!

Tonight, there might be some bad news and the enthusiasm for risk will abate, the US$ will strengthen and so will gold.

This all happens for one reason only, the US economy (for all it's troubles) is still the powerhouse of the global economy and the US$ is the worlds reserve currency and it's safe haven when things go bad. There is no other currency that can match it, not the EURO, not the YUAN, not the YEN and certainly no Middle Eastern currency!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter. We do fundamentally disagree on this, but this is not just a weakness in the US$. This is a complete lack of confidence. Perhaps the only thing that is saving it is, there is no viable alternative in sight.

Jacks Qatar or UAE is a non-starter. That would have to be one of the most volatile regions on the planet. To the west there is a civil war, to the north is a kingdom biting its nails, and to the north east is a country under the Mullahs with a nutter that wants to launch missiles!

As to the Euro? I still thing the UE will splinter and there will be a return to the nationals again. After this fiasco with Greece, who would risk investing in Euros again? Aside from anyone wanting to buy Europe.

Huanga.

Not sure how many out there know the story of the little Dutch boy who put his finger in the hole in the dyke and saved everybody. Well the "Euro" politicians have just done that, but within a month or so another larger hole will develop and then another even larger hole. The Euro is a totally political construct and this is a political fix. Getting into the Euro was easy. Getting out is very difficult. Actually managing a change by reverting to your old currency in Greece or Ireland is nigh impossible. Everybody will attempt to turn their bank accounts into Euro notes causing a run on the banks. Indeed holdings in bank accounts in both countries is already declining. To introduce a Euromark in some countries and leave the old Euro in others will result in people taking suitcases of old Euros to the Euromark zone to presumably swop them on changeover day for the same rate that the Germans get.

The Euro politicians are between a rock and a hard place. Federalism is a possibility but selling that to joe public will not be easy.

Perhaps we should have a parliamentary sub-committee here in the U.K. where all the idiots who tried to get us to join the Euro can publically apologise one after the other before being put in the stocks and pelted with rotten tomatoes.

Mallard. If you were to put them all in the stocks in front of your parliment, and even if you got there early. The crowd would be so great you would have to throw from somewhere near bedford.

Huanga.

I am sorry, but you are just plain wrong. Whenever there is a loss of confidence in the economic situation in Europe, the flight is to the US$. When the GFC occurred (remember that?) the US$ was all anybody wanted. Global stock markets were in free fall, especially on Wall Street where it all began.

The A$, which was approaching parity, sank like a stone. This wasn't due to any real issue of fundamental weakness in the Australian economy. In fact, Australia didn't even go into recession. Rather it was the flight to quality, to US Treasuries that sent all currencies into freefall against the US$.

The A$ has rallied since, surpassing previous highs. But thye last few weeks saw just how tentative that stregnth could be. The A$ dropped 2 cents overnight at one stage during the Greek fiasco. If there was a serious default in Europe, the US$ would soar again, not because of any fundamentals in Australia going bad (Australian banks have almost no exposure to European sovereign debt). It would, once again, be the flight to quality (even if we agree it is irrational).

Always remember, it is sentiment that drives markets, not necessarily logic or fact! There is no lack of confidence in the US$, just a greater appetite (read sentiment) for risk right now. Take away the sentiment towards risk and the US$ is where the money will go.

You don't have to like it, you just don't have a choice. You, and Jack, can rail against the Great Satan all you like. It might make you feel better but it 'aint gonna make one iota of difference in the real world, where there isn't any true black and white, just shades of greay and the ever present 'certainty' of the global financial system.

Sentiment, not logic. The real world, not utopia.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Way back in these posts we found out fiat money is only a promisary note no more no less.

It is backed by nothing but fresh air, and thimble and pea trickery.

Now who would you rather have a promisary note from US or China, before you answer , who actually of those two can actually pay out on every note right now , today.

You may say neither , but then which one will come closest , that also is of importance in your decision is it not.

I have left out euros as they can not get their house in order till all the chickens come home to roost , I have left out au$ and similar as they are bit players, I will look at the big two as I see it as that is the World powerhouse changeover right now as we watch.

It doesn't matter which Fiat currency will be favoured! They are ALL fiat, therefore we are discussing which pile of crap stinks the worst.

Fiat currency was introduced in the 70's by Richard Nixons administration, but their reasons for introducing Fiat currency was based on changing the system from being resource based to being based on DEBT and DEBT only! It was an experiment that in every economists eyes has failed.

Humans and society have been trading surplus resources/labour since the beginning of civilization, but our obsession with credit, debt and fiat currency is only 40-50 years old, and it's been pretty much downhill since those cards were maxed out!

Ben Bernanke was asked this week whether we have reached a paradigm concerning fiat currencies, with gold going through the roof. He replied that although in the past, nations flocked to gold in times of instability...this time would be different. He has been derided and ridiculed in the markets for saying this... his ties to the American Government, IMF and World Banks mean that HIS future depends on the Dollar staying strong, which it cant,and it wont.

Euro is a basket case, Germany might end up with all the Greek baubles..but the Geman people can't eat the Parnathon or Mount Olympus. If Merkel and Sarkoszy take onboard most of the Greek Debt, then what? They can't pay!!! They have no money!!! And add Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland... the whole thing will is a mess.

EVERY single previous civilization on this planet, bar none has fallen. Financial problems and poor resource management has cost most of them their positions, its just we don't really learn from the past. The American Dollar Credit Empire is falling, it isn't the end of the world..but it will be the start of a new system.

My contacts in the investment risk market tell me that in the near future most trading in futures, hedges, high risk-quick reward, package stocks etc, will all be illegal, banned or obsolete..for they are all Ponzi schemes or pyramid systems of one type or another with little or no real regulation.

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Looking for South Korea up to 1884-1951,North Korea 1st issue 1946-1957,China 1898-1912 and P.R.C 1963- 1980,Thailand 1883- 1918, Commonwealth QV Issues.

Peter, it does not really matter if we agree or disagree. As you say, its not going to change anything. My original post was to ask the question as above. That has been answered to my satisfaction.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I regard the US as the great satan?? I think thats a ridiculous statement to make, and can only conclude that you are annoyed because our opinions differ.

Huanga.

Euro is fine now; looks like greater economic integration to one federal state. Seems good to me. Better than all the US debt at least!

Let's go back to the original question.

If the dollar and the Euro collapse, every economy in the world (including China) will suffer, since their banks hold many assets denominated in dollars and Euros.

China cannot and will not divest itself of its U.S. dollar assets of various kinds. Who would they sell them to? They might slow down their acquisition of such assets, but that creates an unintended consequence, in that it punishes Chinese exporters.

All you folks who pooh-pooh gold better get on board, the train's leaving shortly. Gold is the only MONEY they can't print MORE of.

Also, I agree that Australia and New Zealand are in an excellent long-term situation, less the inconvenience of exchange rates. You would be smart to boost food production without subsidy, especially commodities that can be stockpiled for a few years.

Your biggest risk, several decades from now, is invasion by some desperately HUNGRY Asian country.

I also think the U.S. and Canada should merge, and allow Quebec to become an independent country if that's what its citizens want, by plebiscite.

Such a "Fortress North America" would have nothing to fear except continuing fiscal mismanagement. If global warming proceeds, Canada will enjoy a huge boost in food production, far beyond grains.

The biggest threat to the world has nothing to do with money -- it's overpopulation.

When I was born it had taken the world three plus million years to get the population to round about two billion. The media tell me we are now about to have a world population of seven billion, and its not all my fault!!

Huanga.

If it helps, I can remember the nuns telling my cousin she was superfluous to requirements during the early '70s: ZPG was all the rage then, and my cousin was the third child.....in a Catholic family. You can imagine how a 6 y.o. felt

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FORESTS OLD, PASTURES NEW
(An expert is one who knows more and more, about less and less, until they know absolutely everything about nothing at all)

'I also think the U.S. and Canada should merge, and allow Quebec to become an independent country if that's what its citizens want, by plebiscite.'


No; 'Democratic' USA to merge with Canada to make a sensible modern country , Quebec to hive off, leaving the Republicans to go it alone living in 19th century redneck land....

From the Senators office....Shocking news just in, on a Sunday too! bit long winded but worth it....links at base of article.

The first ever GAO(Government Accountability Office) audit of the Federal Reserve was carried out in the past few months due to the Ron Paul, Alan Grayson Amendment to the Dodd-Frank bill, which passed last year. Jim DeMint, a Republican Senator, and Bernie Sanders, an independent Senator, led the charge for a Federal Reserve audit in the Senate, but watered down the original language of the house bill(HR1207), so that a complete audit would not be carried out. Ben Bernanke(pictured to the left), Alan Greenspan, and various other bankers vehemently opposed the audit and lied to Congress about the effects an audit would have on markets. Nevertheless, the results of the first audit in the Federal Reserve's nearly 100 year history were posted on Senator Sander's webpage earlier this morning.

What was revealed in the audit was startling: $16,000,000,000,000.00 had been secretly given out to US banks and corporations and foreign banks everywhere from France to Scotland. From the period between December 2007 and June 2010, the Federal Reserve had secretly bailed out many of the world's banks, corporations, and governments. The Federal Reserve likes to refer to these secret bailouts as an all-inclusive loan program, but virtually none of the money has been returned and it was loaned out at 0% interest. Why the Federal Reserve had never been public about this or even informed the United States Congress about the $16 trillion dollar bailout is obvious — the American public would have been outraged to find out that the Federal Reserve bailed out foreign banks while Americans were struggling to find jobs.

To place $16 trillion into perspective, remember that GDP of the United States is only $14.12 trillion. The entire national debt of the United States government spanning its 200+ year history is "only" $14.5 trillion. The budget that is being debated so heavily in Congress and the Senate is "only" $3.5 trillion. Take all of the outrage and debate over the $1.5 trillion deficit into consideration, and swallow this Red pill: There was no debate about whether $16,000,000,000,000 would be given to failing banks and failing corporations around the world.

In late 2008, the TARP Bailout bill was passed and loans of $800 billion were given to failing banks and companies. That was a blatant lie considering the fact that Goldman Sachs alone received 814 billion dollars. As is turns out, the Federal Reserve donated $2.5 trillion to Citigroup, while Morgan Stanley received $2.04 trillion. The Royal Bank of Scotland and Deutsche Bank, a German bank, split about a trillion and numerous other banks received hefty chunks of the $16 trillion.

"This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else." - Bernie Sanders(I-VT)
When you have conservative Republican stalwarts like Jim DeMint(R-SC) and Ron Paul(R-TX) as well as self identified Democratic socialists like Bernie Sanders all fighting against the Federal Reserve, you know that it is no longer an issue of Right versus Left. When you have every single member of the Republican Party in Congress and progressive Congressmen like Dennis Kucinich sponsoring a bill to audit the Federal Reserve, you realize that the Federal Reserve is an entity onto itself, which has no oversight and no accountability.

Americans should be swelled with anger and outrage at the abysmal state of affairs when an unelected group of bankers can create money out of thin air and give it out to megabanks and supercorporations like Halloween candy. If the Federal Reserve and the bankers who control it believe that they can continue to devalue the savings of Americans and continue to destroy the US economy, they will have to face the realization that their trillion dollar printing presses can be stopped with five dollars worth of bullets.

The list of institutions that received the most money from the Federal Reserve can be found on page 131 of the GAO Audit and are as follows..
Citigroup: $2.5 trillion ($2,500,000,000,000)
Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000)
Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000)
Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000)
Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion ($868,000,000,000)
Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000)
Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000)
Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000)
JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000)
Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000)
UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000)
Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000)
Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000)
Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000)
BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000)
and many many more including banks in Belgium of all places
View the 266-page GAO audit of the Federal Reserve(July 21st, 2011): http://www.scribd.com/doc/60553686/GAO- ... estigation
Source: http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-696
FULL PDF on GAO server: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11696.pdf
Senator Sander's Article: http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news ... 060dcbb3c3
http://www.unelected.org/audit-of-the-f ... t-bailouts
July 21, 2011

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Looking for South Korea up to 1884-1951,North Korea 1st issue 1946-1957,China 1898-1912 and P.R.C 1963- 1980,Thailand 1883- 1918, Commonwealth QV Issues.

GOOD POST, sukhothai!

Big banks and Wall Street are the ENEMY of every American. Now middle-class Europeans are going to be robbed too, to pay for the PIIGS' seductive, stealthy spending binges.

I'm surprised about Ireland and Italy; the others, not a bit surprised. In 5 years, the Euro will not exist. Maybe the dollar (as we know it) won't either.

If I were a stamp dealer with a big inventory of mint stamps denominated in Euros, regardless of the country, I would start sliding them out the door, today.

Repeat after me, Gold is Money. It is the ONLY money they can't print more of...

Sukhothai. Its shocking, but to me and perhaps thousands of others, figures of this size are meaningless. Its just to large to even think off in normal terms of finance. Not only that, even if the figures were understandable. there is nothing that can be done to get them returned. There are gone! History!

I know what I would like to do with bankers and politicians, and it would not be pleasent. However, both groups well know they are safe. They have the law there to protect them, and a 'herd' of lawyers ready to fend off any move against them.

When it all settles down, and the splintered population are bought off with the promises of future tax cuts. it will soon be forgotten. We have already gone through it here. We bailed out the BNZ, Air New Zealand, and even I can no longer remember how many more.

So apart from the Fox new channel getting its self all worked up again, and a few of the plastic bimbos that flit in and out putting on another layer of plastic on their faces. Nothing will happen. The bankers and the policitians will all be having tea as usual.

Huanga.

I think people are in for a real suprise.

We have never been through something like this before, every depression before had gold and silver backed currencies and separate markets to fall back on.

These conditions with Fiat currency are so different that they shouldn't be looked at in the same context, there is NO fallback option this time. Fiat is done for, ALL of them. A 50 year experiment that has failed.

If you are looking for any currency to put your faith into, pick countries that have small reserves of Dollars and large reserves of natural resources, for when the dollar falls it will be a global event on a huge scale.

Then we will all get a chance to change up their worthless Dollars for a significantly less worthless Amero.

Scary times ahead, I feel for the workers in America...

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Looking for South Korea up to 1884-1951,North Korea 1st issue 1946-1957,China 1898-1912 and P.R.C 1963- 1980,Thailand 1883- 1918, Commonwealth QV Issues.

'5 years, the Euro will not exist.'

Rubbish; Euro will exist with a strong federal EU state in the making.

There will never be a strong federal EU in our lifetime. It's a failed experiment that has done little except create mountains of debt and put the weaker Members at the mercy of the stronger Members.

Greece will default, despite the €109 billion bailout created out of thin air, which is simply more ballast to sink the IMF and the BIS. Portugal will go next. The only thing holding this house of cards together is pride. Many European banks will fail, and a good many of ours too.

If EU Members were anywhere near equals, the experiment might have worked.

Personally, I do not like to see the European countries homogenized; they are the diverse cradles of Western civilization, the nominal heritage of billions, including most Americans, tracking back ten generations. The way to strengthen the "union," so to speak, is to do away with the niggling red tape and protectionism in commerce, finance, enterprise, and licensing so dear to the Euro-bureaucrats' hearts. Fat chance of that, I guess.

I hate to see what is happening to the UK, my own ancestral home.

The strong are VERY tired of bailing out the weak, and Greece's putative success is not lost upon the greedy politicians of the rest of the weaklings.

Nail on the head Doug! Spot on.

Printing trillions of bucks and throwing them at the world banks to save them from collapse, then wondering why the dollars is falling and their reserves are losing value?

Stick with your Aussie and NZ Dollars, you both have natural resources and plentiful fishing grounds. Europe and America will be tougher places to be in the very near future.

One thing is clear since this morning, the system has ALREADY failed, and without the secret bailout many insolvent banks would've folded, and now they don't know how to stop it. Raise the ceiling or default? Your choice.

The STRONGEST banking system in the last quarter was the Icelandic banks because they were the only country to let the insolvent banks crumble and the investors who took the high risks lost most of their money.

They didnt force the people to pay for their banks failings!

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Looking for South Korea up to 1884-1951,North Korea 1st issue 1946-1957,China 1898-1912 and P.R.C 1963- 1980,Thailand 1883- 1918, Commonwealth QV Issues.

Thanks for the kind words.

Long ago, I stated in several SB posts that Australia and New Zealand had some great things going for them, some due to climate, some due to geography, some due to modest population, some due to a strong and tough work ethic, etc., etc., and I begged the citizens to stay ALERT and well-informed and not let these strategic benefits dissipate or weaken for short-term political or financial gain.

I'd like to see some Aussie start a website, linked to SB perhaps, describing the coming decades' Australian civilization, written out as an evolutionary, chronological process: Said Aussie to remain FIRMLY in charge of the content, posting only what others contribute that agrees with his well-reasoned worldview.

Over time, it should grow highly detailed and ever-better organized and accessible, a blueprint, so to speak, for one man's or woman's view of a better country. All will profit from such an enterprise, and the more controversy and discussion it raises, the better. In my opinion, it should not link to any particular political party -- just a sound worldview of alternative strategies looking ahead to 2050 and beyond.

As an aside, and not necessarily part of an ambitious worldview, one small specific - I think Australia should move full speed ahead to perfect and reduce the cost of desalinization. Water is King.

I can visualize fleets of Australian ships docked in many world harbors, producing fresh water from a secret shipboard system, pumped to the mainland, all for a fat fee.

I do get tired with conspiracy theories / tabloid press / republican USA paranoia.

The Oz dollar is doing well as it is tied to the Chinese Yuan (and before that USD. West German Mark etc). Dont pretend otherwise.

The EU is fine; at a time of global and regional crime / terrorism / green issues / unions / capitalism it is quite logical to have a regional group such as the EU (gosh, we give up an inch of nationalism, so what? Worth noting that since the EU there has been no wars including its members against each other-nice change. And many other positives exist. Yes, the EU is as nutty as any other political set up- and as good.)

Those who live in the past repeat the past.

Facts are starting to come out in these posts that show the world is acting exactly as verge of bankrupt bussinesses do .

They are in denial and are moving money and assets about to look solvent on their yearly report, when the stuff hits the fan as it eventually must , we will all say ooh, ahh, and wonder why someone did not say , " but the Emporer has no clothes on."

Lies, damned lies and statistics. I suppose teh good Senator (and many here) neglected to read the actual wording of the report. This is what was said in the report just before the table.

Table 8 aggregates total dollar
transaction amounts by adding the total dollar amount of all loans but
does not adjust these amounts to reflect differences across programs in
the term over which loans were outstanding. For example, an overnight
PDCF loan of $10 billion that was renewed daily at the same level for 30
business days would result in an aggregate amount borrowed of $300
billion although the institution, in effect, borrowed only $10 billion over 30
days. In contrast, a TAF loan of $10 billion extended over a 1-month
period would appear as $10 billion. As a result, the total transaction
amounts shown in table 8 for PDCF are not directly comparable to the
total transaction amounts shown for TAF and other programs that made
loans for periods longer than overnight.

I strongly suggest you go one more page into the document, to table 9. The preamble is;

To account for differences in the terms for loans that were outstanding,
we multiplied each loan amount by the number of days the loan was
outstanding and divided this amount by the number of days in a year
(365). Table 9 shows the top 20 borrowing institutions in terms of termadjusted
total transaction amount for emergency programs and other
assistance provided directly to institutions facing liquidity strains.

Now, adjusted for actual money lent out, the true figure is US$1.139Trillion. Bank of America got 6% of that, US$67b, and last time I checked that had all been repaid.

Perhaps a little less hysteria and viewing the world according to your pre-conceived prejudices might just allow an objective view of the world?

And one last thing,

it's little wonder the citizens of western democracies so despise most of their politicians. Most of them can't lie straight in bed!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Jack, I don't know which world you inhabit, but it 'aint the same one I do!. The Chinese YUAN is not, repeat NOT, a traded currency. It is pegged to the US Dollar. The reason is that, if it was floated, it would soar in value against the US Dollar. That would spell the death knell for many Chinese businesses and cause mass problems and unrest in China. The Communist Party is not about to let that happen.

There is no relationship, in the smallest part, between the value of the Australian Dollar and the Chinese Yuan! There is a closer relationship between the Puffin and the Australian dollar!

The Australian Dollar is strong for three reasons;

1. Other major currencies are weaker at the moment.
2. Australia sells what China (and India, incidentally) needs, i.e. Iron Ore, Coal, LNG.
3. The appetite for risk is abroad.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Doug, what earthly value is such a website??? Nobody has a mortgage on the 'truth' when prognosticating on the future. If you only allow views that agree with your view to be posted then we may as well go and live in North Korea!

The very essence of democracy is the right to hold alternative views. Only by rational debate, can progress occur and the optimal outcome have any chance of being identified and worked towards.

Note that I say rational debate! Have a predetermined view and refusing to acknowledge there is another legitimate view has no part in rational debate. Misreporting and misconstruing facts (e.g. the Federal Reserve lent $16t, hardly any of which has been repaid) adds nothing to a genuine debate and makes the reporter (in this case a Senator no less) look like an idiot. Unfortunately, most (as seems to be the case on this thread, in fact) of the readers of the 'facts as presented' will not bother to check those 'facts as presented' are even accurate!

Personally, I love a good debate. What I dislike intensely is the selective quoting of 'facts' that support one side of the argument whilst neglecting to mention those 'facts' are erroneously reported (at best).

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Really? The things I learn on stampboards from the Economics Professors here.

Now let me see.

We have a free floating currency that has appreciated massively against the USD in the last few years - doubled its value - literally. From .5, to 8% higher than parity today.

However I now learn that is not the case.

Instead we now learn we were "pegged" to that weak currency, which in turn is closely aligned with the Yuan - and the US has been screaming at China to strengthen the Yuan in fact.

I'll "pretent otherwise" thanks.

I visit the USA several times a year and am annnoyed to learn I was getting charged $A2 FOR EVERY $US1 I SPENT for a while. When in fact we were "pegged'.

For Peter S, it was intended as ONE person's view, with selected additions. If you (or anyone else) has a different view of the future, as the big picture evolves, start your own website. All of them, unless sheer nonsense, would be equally valid.

Think of it this way; if a Democratic Senator started a policy blog online, would he include a lot of Republican views? Probably not. But there might be an occasional useful gem. Even a blind pig sometimes finds an acorn.

If someone gives you an envelope of stamps, and it contains some North Korea and Ifni and Guyana, do you dutifully mount those along side your Australia??

Poor analogy, Doug. Frankly, I expected more of you.

It is single view websites that do the damage in my opinion. Imagine how Hitler or Stalin would have loved such a concept! A fundamentalist (he is being called a Christian fundamentalist, but he sure isn't any sort of Christian I would associate the term with!) in Norway has an extreme view and will not countenance any alternative. I wonder whose completely one-sided website(s) he might have frequented before deciding to blow up buildings and slaughter unarmed, innocent people whose view he disagreed with?

The problem with the internet is that any loony can start up a website and he/she will attract like-minded loonys. What we need is sensible, reasoned debate. Debate where facts and logic are to teh fore, where ideas and policies can be debated and sifted. Probably too much to ask for, I guess.

Hence the state of politics today. Tweedle-dumb and tweedle-dumber fighting over who gets to turn the lights off. I used to listen to parliamentary broadcasts because the quality of debate was reasonable and the arguments succinctly put. These days we have an incompetent gov't and an opposition who wants to become an incompetent gov't, instead of remaining an incompetent opposition.

I remember a pair of Australian Parliamentarians, back in the 1970s and early 1980s. They were from either side of the political divide, both members of the House of Representatives. One was Fred Daly (Australian Labor Party) and the other Jim Killen (Liberal Party of Australia). They were both very good speakers and used to debate (and use exquisite insults, in the nicest possible way) on the floor of parliament. They used wit, they used cogent arguments. At the end of the day they used to have a beer together because they were the best of friends. They were such friends that, when they retired, they jointly ran tours of old Parliament House in Canberra. When Daly died it was Killen that gave a moving, but witty, obituary. They were what politicians should be (once were, in fact), they debated the way debating should be done.

Non more, I am afraid. In teh US, either side of politics seems intent on having only their path followed when it comes to budget control and debt control. One side is all for slash and burn and the other is all for increase taxes to solve the problem. Logic says that a combination of both will be required. However, in today's politics, logic is (or so it seems) an inconvenience to be ignored in the pursuit of one's agenda.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Heads back in the sand, hold your eyes firmly shut and the problem will just melt away..

Click those ruby red shoes to take you back to fiscal harmony...

Not going to happen.

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Looking for South Korea up to 1884-1951,North Korea 1st issue 1946-1957,China 1898-1912 and P.R.C 1963- 1980,Thailand 1883- 1918, Commonwealth QV Issues.

Peter, you and I are, in fact, posting on a website run by a strong and single-minded Aussie, who is in firm control, with LOTS of rules, even down to the proper use of capital letters and correct grammar.

And it seems to work just fine. I hope you do not cite StampBoards as a second poor analogy.

We got into this catastrophic succession of messes, both social and financial, because those elected tried to please everybody instead of taking a stand.

Read the most focused social commentary (start at http://www.24hgold.com) and you will find not a mind-numbing hodge-podge, but strong points of view, occasionally bolstered by quotes from the like-minded, as well as facts, insights, and data contributed by reader-supporters (start at http://www.shadowstats.com).

Today's Internet in Hitler's era might well have prevented him from accomplishing ANY of his evil intentions. A thousand websites would have risen in opposition in a struggle for the minds of the German people. You already see how the Internet has fostered democratic movements all over the world; ask the oppressed in Burma, China, Libya, Georgia, and many more, if they approve of, and eagerly support, an opposition to the status quo, i.e., websites run by strong individuals who are firmly in control, and who are the only viable means of political dissent.

The website(s) I proposed (and there could be many) are a focused means of political dissent, to help Australia avoid some of the mistakes Made in the U.S.A.