German Postmark questions

stallzer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 02:21:45 am

Here is a Postcard I have from Germany, I realize there really is no value to it but I'd like to know what the numbers in the postmark are.

If I'm reading this correctly, the date on this would be 24th of July, 1923 ? But what are the next set of numbers,
the 7-8N ? Is this the Post office code ? Also my catalog shows the 50 Mark stamp as a Dark Green / Violet, does that match the one on the PC ? It looks plain Green to me.

Also, can someone translate this for me ? I'm assuming it is from the University of Heidelberg ? is Bibliothek a seminary or Religious University ?

Thanks,

norvic · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 03:19:36 am

24 7 23 7-8 N

24th July 1923
I believe 7-8 may mean 7.30 (ie half-way between) and N means morning or evening.

As for value, it's a nice example (albeit with a bit missing) of an interesting period in German postal history. Everything has some value.

europhil · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 03:25:57 am

This is what is known as a 12-hour time cancel, which is
appropriate for the inflation period. (If you find an inflation
stamp with a 24-hour time cancel, it's a guaranteed fake.)

7-8N means 7:00 to 8:00 PM (yes, the PO was open that
late). N = Nachmittags = after noon. Also V = Vormittags =
before noon.

The number 1 in the bottom arc distinguishes the Heidelberg 1
post office from the Heidelberg 2 PO. (In 1944 there was also
a Heidelberg 1B and a Heidelberg 5. I don't know if these
existed in 1923, and I don't know what happened to 3 and 4.)

A Bibliothek is a Library. The text of the card acknowledges
receipt of the book described at the bottom.

europhil · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 03:28:15 am

Also, look at the background to the text in the oval of the
50 Mark stamp. It's violet. Ditto the brown 30 Mark stamp
with the yellow background.

europhil · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 03:29:29 am

7-8N means anytime in the hour between 7PM and 8PM.

stallzer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 04:36:11 am

Thank you Ian & Jay.

doug2222usa · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 04:50:47 am

Don't be too quick to dismiss this card (and
other older German cards/covers) as worthless;
some usages and combinations are extremely
valuable, and the Michel-Spezial (specialized)
will tell you what they are.

This is a good time to review the 3 types of
usage that send German collectors into a
tizzy:

Einzelfrankatur = Ein. = one single stamp
on a cover.

Mehrfrankatur = Mehr. = multiple copies of
the same stamp on a cover.

Mischfrankatur = Misch. = several different
stamps on a cover.

An example (from 1997), Michel #29:
single loose stamp - 120 marks
single stamp on cover (Ein.) - 350 marks
strip of 4 or block on cover (Mehr.) - 2200 marks

The premiums can go much higher than
that, percentage-wise. Every German cover
of any consequence should be evaluated for
a "franking" premium, because Germans
LOVE this kind of stuff, and pay dearly
for it, especially on eBay.

Cover · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 04:57:54 am

Pitty the 30 marks stamp is not the "Walzendruck" that stamp mixed used with other stamps would do 40 euro. The 30 and 50 mark are "Plattendruck", sligtly fatter writingstyle the the W-type. See the quite long underside of the 3 on the 30 marks stamp.
Of the 50 marks W-type is also a sligtly deferent color combination, that would do 200 euro in mixed use.
There is also a serie of the same stamp-type but then uni-color.
All stamps on the card are from 1922/23.
The first serie of the "Posthorn" the bi-color could be used till 30 september 1923. The 200 marks stamp till 30 november 1923.
Card value about 4 euro (Michel Briefe-Katalog Deutschland 2004).

stallzer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 05:06:09 am

By no means do I think it's worthless. I just meant that I knew it did not have much value, meaning probably under $20.00. But then again I've been surprised more than once, I just like covers with multiple Stamps and Postmarks and this is my only one from Germany (That I've found so far, still have plenty to sift through).

doug2222usa · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 05:13:47 am

Yikes, a $20 threshold!!

If I'm going through covers (like in a dealer's
$1 box) and see one worth $19, I figure I've
found a real bonanza.

I use 50 cents as the "worthless" threshold. :mrgreen:

europhil · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 05:24:30 am

Yes, but. The Germans are very concious of quality. This card
has three missing corners and a 4th one appears to be bent.
The destination is common and the rate period was one month
long.

However - it is worth investigating the 50 Mark stamp some
more. If it has the common network watermark it's nothing
special (Scott 184, Michel 209 P). But if it has the "Vierpaß"
(Quatrefoil) watermark (Scott 211, Michel 209 P Y) it's worth
a bundle. Mint is common, but used (Sc. $825, Mi. â‚¬1100) or
on cover (Sc. $1,500, Mi. â‚¬2,000) is nothing to sneeze at.

Now, how do you determine a watermark on cover, especially
on a (presumably) thick post card? You probably can't, but
you may have some luck if you hold it at an angle to the light
(sun light is good). The network watermark can often be seen
this way.

Other options are -
- try a Morley-Bright detector,
- lift the stamp from the card (don't try this at home, get an expert),
- in a darkroom, make a sandwich with some glass, the card
and a piece of unexposed film. Then expose it to light for a
day or two (may require several tries),
- find a friend with an x-ray machinie.

doug2222usa · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 05:29:27 am

Ah, Stallzer, here is the bottom line we are
all tap-dancing around:

We want to see ALL your German covers! :roll:

We will dissect every tiny factoid about them
to the nth degree, and maybe beyond. :lol:

stallzer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 06:56:33 am

europhil wrote:

Yes, but. The Germans are very concious of quality. This card
has three missing corners and a 4th one appears to be bent.

Nothing that a pair of Scissors can't correct :lol:

doug2222usa wrote:

Ah, Stallzer, here is the bottom line we are
all tap-dancing around:

We want to see ALL your German covers! :roll:

We will dissect every tiny factoid about them
to the nth degree, and maybe beyond. :lol:

I do believe this is my only one.

I'll wait a few months until the sunlight re-appears here and see if I can find the needle in the haystack (Watermark)

Cover · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 07:23:16 am

Then you also can check the watermark of the 200 Mark stamp. Could be "Waffeln" with 3 color shades, "Rotlila" and "Lebhaftrot" are more rare then "Karminrot"
The watermark "Vierpass" is normaly used for fiscal stamps, probably they picked the wrong paper :wink:

stallzer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:12:53 am

Ok, now you have me wanting to lift the stamps !!!

J/K, I've learned better from the greater minds here.

gavin-h · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 23:49:18 pm

Rob,

Before you start lifting stamps from cover, think about this:

When there are several varieties of a stamp, it is most likely that the one you have is the one which was issued most recently before the date of the postmark (there are some exceptions, but this is a general "rule of thumb").

That is because most people and companies would buy stamps at the post office around the time of usage. Obviously, collectors may have motives to use other issues, and some may only buy stamps once every few months (but in Germany in 1923 when rates were changing every few days, there would have been no logic in doing that).

So, my first step would be to check the issue dates in the catalogues and check which issue is the "best fit" for the date on the postmark. I'm at work right now, otherwise I'd check my Michel for you, but hopefully someone else will be able to help (if not, I can check later).

This is NOT foolproof, but certainly helps.

stallzer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2010 23:59:38 pm

Gavin, I was just kidding about lifting the Stamps. I've learned better from the greater minds here and until one of them instructs me to lift them, they are staying attached.

norvic · **Posted:** Sat Dec 18, 2010 00:29:12 am

Gavin makes a very useful point regarding dates, though, when looking at stamps with multiple printings.

If you have a clear date (which you have no reason to believe is wrong by reason of error) the stamp cannot be from any printing stated to be after that date. Thus if the first printing/perforation/shade is catalogued at £100 and the common ones which follow it are 20p, and you have a clear date before the second printing, you probably have a good stamp

muruk · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2012 20:29:58 pm

OK, new question.

I just acquired this postcard sent from Freiburg in Schlesien to Slovenia:

It apparently travelled via Waldenburg, a little south of Freiburg. Or perhaps Freiburg was in the Waldenburg Military District. What I would like, if anyone has it, is an image of a clear strike of the Waldenburg handstamp:

Or even just to know what the writing is around the top.

doug2222usa · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2012 21:11:43 pm

I assume it's a Censor mark, not a postal cancellation, so any well-struck censor mark might give you the words, or similar words, at the top?

europhil · **Posted:** Wed Jan 18, 2012 03:10:30 am

It's not a censor mark. It's the "Briefstempel" which
identifies the sending military unit, in this case a POW
hospital in Waldenburg. The card entered the postal
system at Freiburg and was sent to a part of Slovenia
that had been annexed to Austria as Unter Steiermark.

Jimbo · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:30:52 pm

Hi, first post newbie here.

While looking at my Step fathers stamp album, I noticed the cancel on an old german stamp, but was unsure how to read it. Would I be right in reading the stamp 10 pfennige red as ........

Danzig 17th November 1876 ?

Any Help would be most appreciated.

jugoslavija_post · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:41:36 pm

Correct. Most European countries use the day/month/year format. :idea:

Now a question from me: what does the "m over m" on the first stamp's postmark stand for?

nigelc · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:51:17 pm

jugoslavija_post wrote:

Correct. Most European countries use the day/month/year format. :idea:

Now a question from me: what does the "m over m" on the first stamp's postmark stand for?

It's the logo of the Leipzig Trade Fair.

jugoslavija_post · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:54:54 pm

Ah, thanks Nigel.

nigelc · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 13:00:56 pm

jugoslavija_post wrote:

Ah, thanks Nigel.

You're welcome Erik.

Here's a summary from Wikipedia showing a large-scale version of the logo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_Trade_Fair

muruk · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 14:13:12 pm

There is a dedicated central thread for German postmark questions here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24032

Perhaps a mod would like to merge the threads?

Just a suggestion.

Global Administrator · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 14:33:23 pm

Good suggestion - merged them both. :mrgreen:

asmodeus · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 17:30:18 pm

Quote:

Or even just to know what the writing is around the top.

Res. (Reserve) Lazarett= (reserve) Military hospital

muruk · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 18:02:24 pm

Thanks.

stallzer · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 23:03:09 pm

Here are a couple of covers I found in the pile. Are these common postmarks ?

Machaggis52 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2012 02:50:13 am

nigelc wrote:

jugoslavija_post wrote:

Correct. Most European countries use the day/month/year format. :idea:

Now a question from me: what does the "m over m" on the first stamp's postmark stand for?

It's the logo of the Leipzig Trade Fair.

It is indeed. The Leipziger Messe is a sub collecting category for me, the stamp and cancels run through unti the fall of East Germany. The DDR issued stamps and mini sheets. At one point there were spring and autumn fairs, don't know when that continued until. Must actually start and pull them all together and see what I'm missing in terms of years. There are a few year set sellers on EBay of DDR stuff, who would be able to provide any missing stamps. Indeed, with the relatively low cost of the later year sets, it would be worth asking for the stamps to be included as well as the mini sheets, the seller I use for this stuff does it automatically.

europhil · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2012 06:03:36 am

stallzer wrote:

Here are a couple of covers I found in the pile. Are these common postmarks ?

Yes.

Top one was in use at Leipzig C4 m and C10 m from 1932
to 1938. Similar postmarks were in use at several other
Leipzig offices during this period.

Bottom one was used in several different Munich offices
from 1929 to 1938. BUT - the swastika was only added in
1933 or later and in fact is found only in the München 8 a
and 43 a postmarks.

aussie_robbo60 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 00:11:19 am

Hi Team

I was asked by a good friend of mine about a the postmark on this German stamp ????

I am no expert, so could anyone please tell me more about it and where its from.

Cheers Robbo

nigelc · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 00:14:49 am

I believe it's "BERLIN,S.W." but it makes a nice "N.S.W."

aussie_robbo60 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 00:21:51 am

Thanks' Nigel

I will let him know.

Gotta love the quick response on stampboards.

Cheers Robbo

Stamp_nut · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 06:24:04 am

Hi I was wondering if someone could help me out with some postmarks. I have a picture of the stamp in question..It says LIEBENAU and there is another name underneath it. ????NNOVER. Does someone know what the rest of the name is? As well I have a few others that are mysteries to me does anyone know anything about them? Just wondering. Here are the pictures.
1.

2. Is this the very place where that camp was?

3. Here are some more. If anyone has any info about them.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.What are the meaning of the names in brackets?

Thanks for your time

europhil · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 07:02:57 am

1. Liebenau bei (über?) Hannover. Late use of a Prussian postmark, I think.
2. Yes.
3. Now Studniska Dolne in Poland.
4. 1887 issue of one of the private delivery companies in Frankfurt.
5. Railway postmark for the line between Bischofsgrün and Neumarkt.
6. Warszaw, German occupation in WWI.
7. Slogan cancel - "Use Airmail!"
8. They indicate the province or district the city was in and are part of
the formal name of the town - in this case Saxony.

Stamp_nut · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 07:32:28 am

europhil wrote:

1. Liebenau bei (über?) Hannover. Late use of a Prussian postmark, I think.
2. Yes.
3. Now Studniska Dolne in Poland.
4. 1887 issue of one of the private delivery companies in Frankfurt.
5. Railway postmark for the line between Bischofsgrün and Neumarkt.
6. Warszaw, German occupation in WWI.
7. Slogan cancel - "Use Airmail!"
8. They indicate the province or district the city was in and are part of
the formal name of the town - in this case Saxony.

Thanks much..I was reading up on postmarks here on stampboards. And apparently I see that there are many fake ones out there. How do I tell if a postmark is fake. I am planning on posting these up on ebay. I don't want to unknowingly post fake stuff..either or I'm just putting a no reserve start bid of .99cents.

europhil · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:12:08 pm

Quote:

How do I tell if a postmark is fake.

You are not going to learn how to identify fake postmarks in a few
days or even a few years. It takes a lifetime of study. If you want
to learn about German postmarks, there's plenty of literature out
there - e.g. see philabooks.com.

The possibility of fake postmarks should only be considered when
the used value of a stamp greatly exceeds the mint value. That's
not the case for any of the stamps you showed.

P.S. Not sure how many of these rise to the 99 cent level.
Certainly not the damaged no. 2. Perhaps 99 cents for the whole
lot.

Machaggis52 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 17, 2013 07:00:08 am

jugoslavija_post wrote:

Correct. Most European countries use the day/month/year format. :idea:

Now a question from me: what does the "m over m" on the first stamp's postmark stand for?

Leipziger Messe.

Oops. :oops:

gavin-h · **Posted:** Thu Jan 17, 2013 23:44:11 pm

Just to illustrate the "MM" question, and to fit in with the topic of "German Postmarks", here's a special Leipzig Fair cancel.

"MM" actually stands for "Muster Messe" = "Trade Fair" :idea:


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