Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Your local library will have a book entitled 'Rising 44' by Norman Davies, which although not related to current events will educate you that the USA could have ensured that Poland remained free of soviet domination.

So now you are saying that the US should have interfered in other nations affairs (to 'ensure that Poland remain free of soviet domination.') ? You are not being very consistent.

Thanks for the recommendation and I will look for the book. The Polish uprising (and the Russian duplicity) has received much publicity in recent years, e.g. the film "The Pianist". Perhaps the best current parallel is the Russian policy towards the Syrian people.

You will find the book most enlightening. I also found it to be rather chilling in parts. Uncle Joe was NOT a nice man, and both Churchill and Rooseveld had their black moments.

Another book you may find interesting is "For your freedom, and ours" by Lynn Olsen and Stanley Cloud.

Both books beg the same basic question. " Why after we spilt our blood for you, did you abandon us to the USSR"

As to consistency my comments are related to 'covert' interference.

At the helm of a man-made famine; led the purges in 1937; pushed some ridiculous infrastructure projects (one was to divert the direction a river flowed ), "not a nice man" is right up there with my understatements such as "the Baltic republics had a little hiccup in their independence for a few years".

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

As to consistency my comments are related to 'covert' interference.

That's not very consistent. Sometimes a nation is unable to provide direct assistance for various reasons and sometimes direct assistance might result in a greater loss of life.

If it is agreed that the assistance is to fight an evil, why is it important whether it is covert or not ?

mgb1248 I note that where you are, Hamas and Hezbollah are defined as 'terrorists' but to many they are 'freedom fighters'

Hamas was democratically elected to power, but clearly there are differences in defining 'democracy'.

So, who defines 'evil'?

Whose 'agreement'? The UN by charter cannot intervene in the affairs of a sovereign country.

Relating that to Syria. clearly there is no agreement ( China and Russia vetoed) and equally clearly there is no real definition of the issue- only the US/UK wishlist for regime change which to my mind is completely unrelated to the current turmoil.

If Libya is used as the base, neither the US the UK or NATO are concerned about 'humanitarian' issues. This is the 'stated' reason for intervention but I would prefer to know the 'real' reasons before I agreed with it, which puts me clearly with Russia, China and apparently a significant part of the Syrian population.

That peace loving man, President Assad of Syria, continues to use his forces to bombard Homs. The ungrateful wretches in that city don't seem to know what is good for them, I guess, so Assad is trying to demonstrate his love of peace to them. At least 20 more civilians killed yesterday.

I saw some footage, last night, of hospitals in the city of Homs. It seems lots of children are amongst the terrorists trying to overthrow that peace loving man, judging by the bleeding and crying patients. Seems the people of Homs have to bury their dead at night, since that gives them some chance of avoiding the sniper fire from the forces of the peace loving man.

I am sure the Russians are going to have lots of success when they send their delegation to tell kindly Mr. Assad that he needs to change his policies. It might have cost the city of Homs another few hundred, mostly civilian, casualties by then. But what of it? They are only Arabs, right?

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I would prefer to know the 'real' reasons before I agreed with it, which puts me clearly with Russia, China and apparently a significant part of the Syrian population.

I'm sure that the residents of Homs would be fascinated to hear your opinions. Thank you for clarifying your position.

Indeed, a very interesting discussion, as maszki stated above.

I would be interested to hear mbg1248 views on Iran's nuclear program.

What is the general consensus in Israel?

Should we expect a strike by Israel or is this just talk?

My casualty figures were wrong. Apparently the toll yesterday was 71, 47 of whom died in Homs. But good news! Only 4 of the dead were children. I am sure that will cheer those that are undecided on whether Assad should go or not.

Pathetic really, just like the Balkans in the early 1990s. Innocent civilians dying (being deliberately targeted) whilst the world watches and does bugger all!

After WWII and the genocides committed during that conflict the UN was set up. The clear intent of the UN Security Council was to stop any such event occurring again. Since then we have had Cambodia, Rwanda, the Balkans and too many others to mention. In every case it has needed action outside of the UN to deal with what was going on. Perhaps it is time to consider whether the UN has passed it's use by date.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Are you for real?? The uprising against Assad has been going on since March last year! What do you think the intent of the population is, if it is not regime change??

It is Syrians who are demanding change, not the US, UK and Arab League alone. It is Syrians who are dying at the hands of their own government. Any government that has to use military force against it's own population to stay in power has lost all legitimacy.

There will be a reckoning, but whilst Assad has supporters in the international community he will continue to be deluded into thinking he can survive in power. How many thousands of innocent civilians will die as a consequence of that delusion is anybody's guess.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter supports Islamist terrorists who murder policemen, soldiers and their families. I'm sure he will be consistent and apply the same support if they attack Australians.

Peter, you are spot on. That is exactly the US/UK view. Those that have died are only towelheads..only arabs..no worry. They are not real people.

By the way, who shot them? Were they shot by Assad's thugs or were they caught in the crossfire with the Free Syria thugs? Or are you another 'apologists' who denies that there is an armed insurgency in Syria?

The Russian veto was based upon what it saw as a need for BOTH armed parties to lay down their weapons..they saw the resolution as a totally unbalanced view clearly supporting the insurgency. Do you disagree with that view?

There is a popular uprising ( popular in the USA but clearly not so popular in Syria) but that uprising has, just as in Libya, been usurped by armed revolutionaries who Assad claims are sponsored by 'outside' parties ( and to answer your later question, the initial protesters wanted change, elections and a better life-it was only later after the armed thugs moved in that 'regime change' became the chant)

I suppose that those soldiers who have died simply fell on their swords, just an unfortunate accident.

Did you watch the TV coverage on Russia Today when the Russian foreign minister and party arrived in Damascus? If you did then you should accept that any idea that you have that Assad does not have considerable support is a product of disinformation.

If you have any compassion for the 'real' Syrian people ( as distinct from those opposition groups safely esconsed in the USA or the UK, or even in Istanbul) you would support the Russian initiative to bring the conflicting parties together and hopefully develop an 'end game' before the US/UK unleash the 'dogs of war' and thousands more are unnecessarily killed

By the way, the initial news from Homs, by the insurgents, was that 'hundreds were killed'. More disinformation.

You have swallowed the Assad claims lock, stock and barrel then? Anybody that is on the rebel side is a terrorist. Only terrorists are being killed by government forces.

BTW, I take deep personal offence at your statement. I object to the killing of innocent civilians, whether they be Islamic, Christian or Sun Worshipers!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

maszki, I really don't understand what makes you tick! In Libya Qaddafi was able to arrange demonstrations of his supporters too. So did Saddam.

The 'real' Syrian people, as you call them, are the civilians being indiscriminately shelled in cities like Homs! If the US and UK really didn't care about them, really just considered them cannon fodder and of no consequence, then they wouldn't be wasting their political capital.

Your anti-US, seemingly anti-Western, bias is blinding you to the realities.

I suppose you considered the uprisings in Tunisia, in Egypt, in the Sudan to all be the work of Islamist terrorists (aided and abetted by the evil West, of course) alone? I think we already know your views on the uprising in Libya.

It is very easy, living in a democracy, to take such a view. Nobody is going to shoot you or bomb you because you disagree, radically, with your government. At the next election you can just vote against the bastards.

However, try imagining yourself as a Syrian. Any opposition to the government is treason, the work of terrorists, to be ruthlessly suppressed. Try imagining yourself a father in the city of Homs today, having to sit by the bedside of your young daughter as the doctors try to save her from the wounds inflicted by a mortar shell. Then imagine having to bury her when she dies, but only at night so that you don't become another victim of government snipers!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

But Peter, by writing this 'You have swallowed the Assad claims lock, stock and barrel then?' you confirm that you have swallowed the US/UK disinformation 'lock, stock and barrel.'

Don't you watch the TV? Don't you read the reports? Government troops are being killed in substantial numbers. Do they ( as I asked previously) fall on their swords, just unfortunate accidents?

Step back, take a deep breath and accept the Russian position that there are 2 sides to this conflict and NEITHER party is blameless as the death of a single person is a disaster, be that person a soldier, an insurgent or a civilian caught in the crossfire.

Syria is currently 'eyeball to eyeball' conflict, totally different to the 'remote deaths' which will occur if the USA/UK implement their threats. Thousands dead in Iraq by 'smart bombs'; thousands killed in Libya by cruise missiles; hundreds killed in Pakistan by drone strikes. ( I assume you also saw the videos released by Manning)

Someone in mid-USA , quietly sipping their coffee and working out what he/she will have for lunch calmly presses a button and hey presto! 'Abdul Abdullah' in Syria, or Libya, or Pakistan disintegrates in a hail of cannon shells or is vapourised by a rocket fired from high in the sky.

Who is the murderer? The person who shoots another armed person or the person who presses the button to disintegrate one or more persons 10.000 kilometers away by remote control?

If you are so concerned about unnecessary deaths how can you be an apologist for the US/UK sabre rattlers?

Somebody recently put the deals between Russia and Syria at about $4 billion(American billion that is). I am really sure that has no effect on their stance and is the same as the do nothing - filibuster attitude from America on Israel when it persecutes the Palestinians.

Israeli relations are an interesting subject, especially when you consider what the involved parties fail to mention or admit to, that brought us to this point. Perhaps the rest of the world should take the control of Jerusalem from them and administer it under the auspicies of some non-interested party.



Today the Argentinian leader has threatened to stop the re-supply flight from Chile to the Falklands flying through their airspace. This of course means that perishables will become a luxury. However the people from South America who work there will not be able to go home as easily and more importantly the bereaved families of the Argentinians who are interred on the Falklands will not be able to visit the graves.

Be well

Feebletodix

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Weaponsmith for the DemiGods from the plane of Silliness

The only (repeat only) "evidence" that Syrian soldiers are dying in large numbers is statements from the Assad regime, the same regime that claims civilians are not being targeted, let alone killed, by regime forces. Where is the footage of all these supposedly dead soldiers? We have plenty of documented evidence of civilian deaths, including footage.

The regime has no credibility whatsoever and I am surprised anybody would give any shred of credence to anything they have to say.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

The Russian government is suffering from relevance deficit syndrome. They still haven't gotten over not being a superpower any more. Add to that the fact that Putin is up election, once again, as President and wants to look strong.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter, in response to this comment "I suppose you considered the uprisings in Tunisia, in Egypt, in the Sudan to all be the work of Islamist terrorists (aided and abetted by the evil West, of course) alone? I think we already know your views on the uprising in Libya"

No Peter, that is not what I consider.

Tunisia was a 'real', popular, and successful uprising as was Egypt.(Pity that hardline Islamists now control the Parliament- another revolution?)

Libya started as a peaceful rebellion but was quickly usurped by the CIA sponsored, trained and armed rebels but is now in the process of being re-usurped ( is there such a word?) by Islamists.

Syria also started as a popular uprising but was just as quickly usurped by armed rebels who Assad claims are supported by 'outside interests

Sudan? Has there been an uprising there or are you referring to the problems between North and South over oil and oil passage?

You write that "If the US and UK really didn't care about them, really just considered them cannon fodder and of no consequence, then they wouldn't be wasting their political capital." Perhaps if you were to think quietly about that you may understand, as the Russians and others already do, that there is more to this issue than is on the table. Think about it. ( I will give you a hint, the real issue might start with Ir and finish with an).

Peter, I don't have to imagine what a father feels when he loses a son or a grandson; or to sit in a paddyfield with the severed leg of a colleague in my hands. Been there, done that. None of those situations is pleasant and I would do anything not to go through that pain again.

Resolution of a conflict depends upon an acceptance that there are 2 sides, and if there is to be a resolution then both sides have to be recognised and brought to the negotiating table.

I do not understand how you can continue to espouse the US/UK disinformation that the whole situation is solely Assad's fault; and to deny media reports and TV coverage of the conflict and of the funerals of Syrian soldiers. Are you really in such denial or are you committed to the line that Assad must be lying, you distinctly saw his lips move?

There are none so blind as will not see. The rebels with weapons are, in the main, soldiers that have crossed sides. There is fighting going on and soldiers on both sides will die. I want you to justify, if you can, the indiscriminate, deliberate, targeting of civilians in cities like Homs.

Or are you suggesting that it is really the rebels that are inflicting those casualties and then blaming your friend Assad?

I repeat, any government that has to resort to the deliberate and wholesale murder of it's own citizens has no legitimacy.

One more thing, if the CIA was really behind it all (is there anything you don't think the CIA is behind?), why not just knock off Assad and his cronies? Cheaper and easier and far less messy.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter if I am blind and cannot see, then you must be seeing mirages in the desert. However that aside, thank you for finally accepting that there are two armed groups firing at, and killing each other. One small step towards consensus.

Yes I accept that civilians are being killed however I have no evidence that they are being deliberately targetted. Do you? I have of course heard the claims with the proviso ' this report cannot be independently verified'. Is this what you base your claims upon?

I have seen video of a Syrian tank firing a shell into the facade of a building. In that same video I saw the muzzle flash from a heavy calibre weapon (and by heavy I mean something similar to the flash of a 106 mm recoilless rifle) firing from within the building towards the tank , just as I have seen video of burnt out tanks and armoured vehicles and destroyed buildings.

It is not for me, nor can I, nor will I, justify the indiscriminate, deliberate, targeting of civilians. That is abhorrent, a war crime. If you have the evidence that this is occurring then don't ask me to justify it- take the evidence to the ICC so that action can be taken against those responsible.

You should ask yourself why, if the evidence is available and can be substantiated, the matter has not been referred to the ICC. If such evidence existed the US/UK would RUN, not walk, to the ICC with that evidence to increase the pressure on Assad as they did with Gadaffi, his son and Security Chief.

If you do not have the evidence then all you are voicing is unsubstantiated unproven allegations from a biased source and which are incapable of being independently verified. If these claims are verified I will be standing next to you demanding that the culprits be brought to justice.

But its NOT cheaper or easier. Pinochet anyone ?

There are nightly reports on TV here, from reporters on the ground in Homs. As they file their reports you can hear the constant shelling going on, as they tell you about another day of constant shelling. Probably just another CIA plot, I guess. They are western reporters after all, so must be in the pay of the CIA.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Clearly the anti-Assad forces are either:

1. Acting on their own to free Syria of a tyrant.
2. Being stirred up by non-Syrians with some other agenda.
3. A proportion of both the above.

You could also say the same goes for the recent uprisings in Libya, Egypt and for that matter, any uprising throughout history.

Another current world event is the floods in Queensland and northern NSW, here in Australia. Thankfully there has been very little loss of life this time round, but lots of property damage and the like. Whole towns have been ordered to evacuate as the water works it's way down through the inland river systems.

QLD has reactivated the flood appeal that was opened for the devastating floods of last summer.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Looks like the State Government of Queensland was taking no chances.

_________________
Collecting Australian FRAMA stamps on Commercial covers.

"There are nightly reports on TV here, from reporters on the ground in Homs. As they file their reports you can hear the constant shelling going on, as they tell you about another day of constant shelling. Probably just another CIA plot, I guess. They are western reporters after all, so must be in the pay of the CIA."

Yes Peter, I see similar reports here both on BBC and Russia Today.

This mornings BBC report was in three parts

Firstly Jim Muir reporting from Bierut reported that the Syrian Army was outside Homs and shelling several suburbs occupied by the Free Syrian Army. He also reported that rebel sources claim that 47 people had been killed overnight.

The second part of the report was from a reporter inside Homs with the rebel fighters. He confirmed that the Syrian Army was shelling the suburb but had NOT launched a ground offensive. His cameraman was photographing a Free Syrian soldier firing a sniper rifle from a hole in the wall and the reporter added that the soldiers could only retaliate with sniper fire and small arms. There was the sound of heavy weapon fire (both incoming and out-going) and small-arms fire.

A third part of the report was about the lack of food in the area and a story of a truck driver who drove through the streets to another suburb to bring back bread. That driver had to pass across a street junction and a claim was made that there were bodies of civilians killed by small-arms fire.

Now Peter, add reports that the Syrian Army have not begun their ground operations into Homs to the reports that the Free Syrian Army were responding with small arms and sniper fire, and a further report of civilians killed by small-arms fire.

If I was to go off half-cocked as you apparently do I could justifiably claim that this is evidence that the Free Syrian Army is killing unarmed civilians but I prefer to take the view that these reports really prove nothing and that all I can read into the situation is that 2 groups are firing at each other and civilians are being killed: from which I conclude that both sides should be compelled to lay down their weapons ( which is the Russian proposal as distinct from that unbalanced and biased resolution prepared by the US and others) so that the killing stops.

So tell me Peter, if the US/UK are so concerned about civilian deaths why will they not support the Russian proposal; and what do we read into the removal of their embassies from Syria? By the way, the Russian foreign minister interviewed on Russia Today last night regarding his visit to Damascus called on 'other parties' to assist in bringing the 2 sides to a ceasefire and to the negotiating table. The US/UK have not yet responded. (I wonder if they will spit the dummy and take their ball home)

I do not know whether the reporter/cameraman are in the pay of the CIA but
I would bet 'London to a brick' that all the intelligence services are monitoring such reports.

And the KGB (now SVR), GRU, etc. never ever did anything as dastardly naughty as that, oh come on they all do it. Without doubt they all have people in Syria right now.

It's part of the inteligence game they all play

So tell me Peter, if the US/UK are so concerned about civilian deaths why will they not support the Russian proposal

He earlier mentioned the 1944 Warsaw Uprising, conveniently forgetting to mention that the Russian army deliberately paused outside Warsaw and allowed the Nazis to slaughter thousands of Poles and destroy the city. But he asked why the Americans didn't intervene to prevent the slaughter, ebven though they were at least a thousand miles away ! Now the Russians are again 'pausing', refusing to act to end the bloodbath in Syria, yet this genius turns it all into a CIA plot. Brilliant. Why are we wasting our time answering him ?

mgb1248, where did I make this comment?

"But he asked why the Americans didn't intervene to prevent the slaughter"

My 2 comments in relation to the Warsaw situation were

"Your local library will have a book entitled 'Rising 44' by Norman Davies, which although not related to current events will educate you that the USA could have ensured that Poland remained free of soviet domination"

and

"Both books beg the same basic question. " Why after we spilt our blood for you, did you abandon us to the USSR""

As with the other posters your comments add to this thread, so at least ensure that you quote people accurately and relevantly.

maszki, I want to see an end to the bloodshed, full stop. The Russian initiative will have no more success than all the attempts by the Arab League so far. Assad will make promises, promises he has no intention of keeping (he kept none of those made to the Arab League). He is a despot that clings to power by using his military to kill opponents.

Let's remember, there was no Free Syrian Army back in March last year when the protests and demands for greater democracy began. Assad reacted with force from day 1. That is what precipitated an armed rebellion. An armed rebellion that is poorly organised and poorly armed, but exists solely because of the hatred Assad has engendered in much of his own populace.

Assad is like all the other despots that have been holding on till they can not do so any more, murdering as many people as it takes to stay in power.

You are free to feel he is just misunderstood and that he is not really responsible for the daily slaughter of civilians. You are free to believe the propaganda his regime is putting out ("it's all foreign controlled terrorists", just as Qaddafi kept spouting) .I, however, will sheet home the blame where it truly belongs. At some point, Assad and his regime will reach the point where his continued hold on power becomes untenable. I suppose that, then, he can flee to Russia.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Gentlemen,

It appears the discussion over who is wrong or who is right regarding Syria is going nowhere.

We all have our ideas and opinions on this and by the look of it there is no middle ground.

To keep this going will not result in anyone changing their mind I'm sure you all would all agree on that, so perhaps it's time for a new discussion

I tried changing the discussion to the floods.

However, this is looking like yet another thread I will be ignoring from now on.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Hello Everyone

My intent for starting this thread, was to provide a broader area for everyone to express their opinions freely on world events. As opposed to the thread on the Euro and Dollar collapsing. In that thread, we were going round in circles and it appears that we are doing the same in here.

If you see that your arguments are not going to win anyone over, Please drop the subject and Please don't dropout of the general discussion, and Please move on to other topics.

Thank you.

It always boils doen to whether one is left wing, like Einstein, Mandela, Gandhi or Stalin; or right wing, like Hitler, Rupert Murdoch, Pinochet or Trotsky....

You think Stalin was left wing and the opposite of Hitler?? I say they were two peas in a pod.

I think of politics as a big circle, a clock face if you will.

At the 12 noon point you have absolute democracy. I cannot point to any society, now or in the past, that could be considered at that point. Probably just as well, because it would be anarchy.

At the direct opposite, the 6:00 point (bottom of circle) you have the despots, whether they be to the left (anti-clockwise) or the right (clockwise). Both maintain absolute power by total repression and think nothing of using military force against their domestic enemies. They also maintain power by developing a cult of the absolute leader. Classic examples are Hitler, Stalin and Kim Il Sung. Al Assad is close to, if not already in, this area.

At the 2:00 to 2:30 area we have western democracies. I would consider most western governments to be in this area. Democratic, but with enough controls to allow an ordered society to exist and for the individual to feel both safe and relatively free of interference. I will acknowledge that, as a direct result of terrorism, we are creeping further along the dial. Collective security is being considered more and more important than personal freedom. But is only incremental and, mostly, at the edges.

At the 9:00 point we have the theocracies, such as Iran. They are, however, sliding further and further towards the 6:00 mark. Hopefully, they will 'reform' before it is too late.

At either the 4:00 to 5:00 or the 7:00 to 8:00 points (it doesn't matter, because the closer you get to the poles, the more similar the regimes are, whether identified as leftist or rightist)you have the pseudo democracies, where corruption is rife and politics is pretty much in the control of crooks (although the politicians may not be the crooks, just taking the payoffs). I would put Russia and a number of ex-Soviet States in this group.

The differences are not straight line, of course. A society at 3:00 is not half as bad as one at 6:00. It is like the Richter scale, every increment doubles the difference. Up till a certain point (let's say 3:00 for arguments sake) the differences are large but of not much relevance. However, you reach a point on the scale where any increase is catastrophic.

Well, that is my (simplified) theory of politics anyway.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Well said, now guys can we get onto something different (and Peter I did notice you tried to start a new discussion topic, i.e. the Queensland floods).

I read the Russians have successfully drilled to reach a freshwater lake beneath Antarctica.

Article here:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/ice-drilling/story-e6frg6so-1226266632763

How do you keep a 3769m hole from freezing over for more than 20 years?

Cheers,

Robert

Amark. You cannot always act as a school ma'am and hope to keep a thread moving in the direction you wish it to go. Threads in any post, if they are to run for any decent lenght of time must be allowed to develop. They have to be allowed to duck dive and double round the initial subject. Otherwise they become boring.

I for one enjoy the exchanges between PeterS, maszki, and of late mbg1248 from Israel.

World events are happening on a daily basis, and most of us get to see the headlines before the event is rapidly replaced by the next crisis. However not everyone finds the same event of interest. Therefore an exchange of views in depth can be of much more interest than the event itself. When it has exhausted the subject or the politicial leanings of the responders, it will move on.

The object of most threads on this board is to inform, and I for one find the exchanges very informative. You mention the Euro/Dollar thread. Look where it started, and look where it finished. The posts carried it along way but never far from the subject, and I learn't a great deal!

Huanga.

Folks a little history here.

When I set-up this board near 5 years back, I typed the following into the Forum heading



That wording has not changed one iota in those 5 years.

I spent a lot of time of a huge travel board that had a similar general Forum that also was pretty heated at times.

I doubt in the history of Bulletin boards, no one has ever convinced a Catholic to become Muslim, or a Democrat to vote Republican, or a Hetro to become Gay, or a Hawthorn supporter to switch allegiance to the Swans, but billions of words have been typed globally trying to do just those things!

As long as we express our views pretty politely with no personal attacks, let's keep up the lively exchange of views.

I would urge a few members above to learn that we have a nifty button feature called "QUOTE" that will allow your responses to be visually separate from what you are referring to.



maszki and mbg1248 appear not to know it exists, so using that going forward will make the thread far easier to follow, folks!

So -

"Both books beg the same basic question. " Why after we spilt our blood for you, did you abandon us to the USSR""

becomes -

This story had 1 paragraph in the lower corner of HK's English-language daily, SCMP, yesterday. They said the lake formed 40,000 years ago and could yield new species.

My two immediate thoughts were:

1. "Great, there's another ecosystem that humans will quickly bugger up."
2. "Those disaster movies about a buried monster being unleashed might come true."

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Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

Global Administrator, Ive tried the quote button but I can't seem to make it work, so my apologies. As one poster said, I must be dumb.

I go along with Huanga as I find the exchanges on the various topics interesting and informative and I would like to see them continue. None of us has the 'right' answers, or the 'wrong' answers, only opinions. I find the various responses to my rants , particularly by Peter, Huanga, Lakotai and others well thought out and informative.

I wrote recently that if we do not contemplate these issues, and express our views, then one morning we might wake up and find that unpalatable things we did not contemplate and discuss are in fact our new reality.

You've single handedly solved all the world's problems, and you can't use this?

I have no idea what issue you are having but it is as simple as making a normal post.

Peter you wrote

Many a truth spoke....

Perhaps you overlooked these 2 reports

" August 28, 2011
The Wisdom Fund
America's Libyan Rebels

by Enver Masud

Twenty years ago, three hundred and fifty Libyans -- trained by the CIA to topple President Ghaddafi, arrived in the United States. A few weeks ago, they returned to "liberate" Libya.

In 1990, operating out of neighboring Chad, when a new government less sympathetic to the U.S. mission was formed in Chad, a new home was needed for these rebels.

The rebels were flown to the U.S. from Kenya where they were temporarily housed.

The rebel leader, Col. Khalifa Haftar spent much of the past 20 years in suburban Virginia, and was reported to be the leader of a contra-style group based in the U.S. called the Libyan National Army.

Upon Col. Haftar's return to Libya a few weeks ago, military command of the rebel tribes was "fiercely contested" between General Younes and Col. Haftar.

General Younes, who defected from the Libyan regime in late February, was "shot and killed in circumstances that remain unclear".

Presumably, the three hundred and fifty Libyans - trained by the CIA to topple President Ghaddafi, returned to Libya with Col. Haftar.

Presumably, the Libyan rebels with American accents shown in crowd scenes from Libya, include some from the contingent of three hundred and fifty Libyans trained by the CIA to topple President Ghaddafi. "

and Foxnews 5 Mar 2011

"Up to eight British soldiers are being held by rebel forces in Libya after a secret mission to put British diplomats in touch with opponents of Libyan leader Muammar al-Qaddafi, according to the London Times.

The soldiers were captured Saturday as they escorted a junior diplomat through rebel-held territory in eastern Libya, according to the paper.

Britain's Defense Secretary says a small British diplomatic team is in eastern Libya to try to talk to rebels there."

Peter I do not understand how you can continue with the myth that this is not a popular uprising usurped by the US. You appear to enjoy 'spitting into the gale' of information that this has been nothing but another cynical exercise in US 'gunboat diplomacy'.

As Libya, so on to Syria.

Global Administrator wrote

I can get this far.

I also do not have a quote button as you illustrate, mine is in a bar at the top of the reply screen where there is a series of boxes with B i u Quote Cod List List= (*) Img and URL Font size and Normal written therein. I press the quote button and Quote in square brackets appears twice. I right click between them and the message appears which when preview finishes up as above.

I have not as yet worked out how to put Global Administrator within the coloured bar.

me not stupid me not dumb; me got nappy on my bum. help!

as Libya, and so on to Syria

A few more articles to read

Thierry Meyssan, the French investigative journalist, has reported that the casualty figures cited by the UN Human Rights special commission accusing Syria of civilian massacres are “fabricated evidence”. The evidence that Syrian security forces killed 5,000 peaceful protesters, comes from a Zionist-funded London-based human rights organization called Observatoire Syrien des Droits de l’Homme (Syrian Observatory of Human Rights), which falsified many of the names.

-- "Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds: US is arming rebels in Syria", Voltaire Net, 21 Dec 2011

For more information about Syria, see:

"Syria: It’s Not Too Late for a Historic Reconciliation", Ibrahim al-Amin, Alakhbar, 23 Nov 2011

Pepe Escobar, "The shadow war in Syria", Asia Times, 02 Dec 2011

Julie Lévesque, Media Lies Used to Provide a Pretext for Another "Humanitarian War": Protest in Syria: Who Counts the Dead?, GlobalResearch.ca, 25 Nov 2011

Michel Chossudovsky, "The Al Qaeda Insurgency in Syria: Recruiting Jihadists to Wage NATO's 'Humanitarian Wars', Part III, GlobalResearch.ca, 2 Sep 2011

Tony Cartalucci, "The 'Free Syria Army': Placard-Waving Protesters are actually Machine Gun-Wielding Terrorists", GlobalResearch.ca, 20 Nov 2011

Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Preparing the Chessboard for the "Clash of Civilizations": Divide, Conquer and Rule the "New Middle East", GlobalResearch.ca, 26 Nov 2011

"The Syria-Iran-Turkey Triangle: A New War Scenario in the Middle East", GlobalResearch.ca, 27 Nov 2011

We all know that the real axis of evil is USA-UK-Israel, but ........

If you Google "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" you have to scroll through two pages until you find anything negative about it, and then its from what is probably a Syrian government news website:
http://www.syrianews.cc/sohr-syrian-obs ... n-352.html
Even they don't claim that the SOHR is "Zionist funded"

Now lets look at "GlobalResearch.ca" and its founder Professor Chossudovsky :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... Name=about

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky -

In an op-ed in the conservative Canadian news outlet, Western Standard, Chossudovsky was listed as one of Canada's nuttiest professors "whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues."[26] Specifically, the op-ed criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "anti-U.S. and anti-globalization"[26] and criticized Chussodovsky's "wild-eyed conspiracy theories", which provided the following three of his theories: that the U.S. had knowledge of the 911 attacks before they happened; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and lastly, that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies.[26]
An article in The Jewish Tribune has also criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." .......
Chossudovsky has also been criticised as an "apologist for the Milošević regime", and for systematically distorting events in Albania and the wars in the Balkans in the 1990s.[28]

Hey, Maszki, I think that everyone here would like to sell you some stamps .......

Stamps?? I have a lovely iron bridge in Sydney to sell him.

Unfortunately, there is a tendency to quote only references that suit a persons world view, without a critical look at the source or bona-fides of the source. It has ever been thus, but the internet just makes it easier for cranks to publish their opinions as fact. The internet is a conspiracy theorists wet dream. There are still sites devoted to 'proving' that the twin towers in NY collapsed because of deliberate action by 'the government'. Despite the exhaustive investigation and detailed explanation published about exactly why the towers fell.

Me, I prefer to verify my sources and put my faith in those worthy of it. For example, Medecins Sans Frontieres reported that their doctors in Syria are facing the tough choice of sending people to hospital or treating them in cellars and out of the way places (at greater risk to the patients). The problem? If they send them to hospital the patients are often tortured or otherwise abused at the hands of the authorities. Not in Homs, of course. There the Assad regime authorities are still outside the city, shelling it indiscriminately.

I also note something that will gladden maszki's heart and confirm his world view. Apparently, in Washington, the Obama administration is looking at the non-diplomatic options available (whilst still planning to exhaust the diplomatic). Code for the military looking at what intervention options (presumably with air power) they have. The Turkish Foreign Minister is flying to Washington to consult on the ongoing humanitarian crisis with Hilary Clinton. Perhaps those air bases in Turkey might be key?

Judging by what I saw on TV last night, the Russians have yet to convince the Great Humanitarian to cease his assault on Homs. Indeed, reports from western reporters (or agents of the axis of evil, if you prefer maszki) indicate the shelling has worsened and involves tanks and helicopters alongside the artillery. I guess it is the humanitarianism in the Great Humanitarian that stops him from ordering a full ground assault?

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

maszki, did you even bother to do the slightest research on The Wisdom Fund?? Another looney group, that can be seen just from their website front page! Stories like "Muslims didn't do it" - referring to the Sept. 11 2001 attacks. More topically, there is a piece that claims that the Arab League produced a report that supports the Assad view of the world and that, as a consequence, Qatar is refusing to release it. So the withdrawal of the observers must have been because all is peaceful in Syria, right?

Now, as to Libya and the captured British soldiers. It was the REBELS that captured them, not the Qaddafi regime. They were not there to fight, they were the protection detail for a diplomat attempting to make contact with the rebels holding Benghazi. Ham fisted? Maybe. But I wouldn't want to go into a war zone, if I was a diplomat, without some sort of protection.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

.... and if anyone wonders about all the stamp "bunnies", here is proof that some people will buy anything