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huanga,

Sorry to hear that you came to a conclusion that I wish to steer a thread in a direction that I want. I am not sure where I have said that.




In the above post, I am trying to say that we should let cooler heads prevail.
If your arguments are not enough convincing or the person will not change their mind, the world will not end. At least I hope it won't.

Furthermore, I have made that post after PeterS had decided to leave this thread. I feel that he is a vital contributer to this thread, just like maszki, and mbg1248. I also, enjoy the exchange that has developed between them. However, sometimes one can get carried away and things get said that should not be said. So, let cooler heads prevail.

Cheers!

Ahhhh.....

All becomes clear, maszki.

You are looking for the Quote button AFTER you hit "Reply" if I'm not mistaken.

If you look for this button...:



...INSTEAD of hitting "Reply", you'll have more luck.

As you are READING the posts, look at the bottom-right of the post you're reading and there is the button. Hit that and it'll open a "reply" window with the quote ready in place.

Good luck....

Another consideration when it came to Libya is that Qaddafi had been responsible for numerous terrorist atrocities over the years (bombs in German cafes and does anyone remember Lokerbie?). Hence, the west was not terribly a verse to assisting his overthrow, even though they did not initiate it.

Assad has been a problem in the local area, most notably in Lebanon, but his history is such that the west has been far more reticent to take direct action.

However, there comes a point where you have to use force to protect the civilian population. I suspect that point is fast approaching. Any promises made to the Russians will be worth no more than those made to the Arab League.

There are only 2 ways the situation in Syria is going to come to an end. Either the rebels will be eliminated (along with a large number of civilians) or Assad will be removed, probably assisted by the use of force from outside.

If the successful uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia and Libya had not happened then I think Assad would already have won, his father massacred a large number of people in the 1980s whilst successfully suppressing demands for democratic changes.

I think the opponents of the current regime look at the rest of the Arab Spring as an inspiration and have decided to persevere, hoping for outside assistance as occurred in Libya. Unless Assad goes voluntarily (most unlikely), outside assistance is what the rebels will end up getting. Just my personal view, with no real evidence to back it (other than the perseverance in the face of overwhelming force). Time will tell.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

In terms of world events. We have all witnessed the Arab Spring and now see in its aftermath, every indication that it might cover the Springs for many years to come. If the various news organisations are to be believed. Greece looks as if it may be the beginning of a European Summer, and again refering to the news, Tibet could well be the start of an Asian Winter.

Of course it depends on how you watch and read the news, and how much faith you have in what you see and hear. However being cautious, if I was in the shoes of jack and mazski, who seem to be Aussia expats. I would be checking the fare home! For the rest of you in the various parts of Europe, the Middle East, and perhaps the US. I offer the following advice.

Practice standing with your legs apart. Lower the body until you can get your head between your legs. Then strech forward and kiss your rear end goodbye. Because if Iran ever manages to go nuclear thats about all you will have time for, and Spring. Summer, and possible Winter revolts won't mean much!!

Of course you could place place your trust in world leaders and in the Imans?

Huanga.

Most droll mgb1248.
What stamps have you got to offer?

As I have said repeatedly, there are too sides to this conflict. We are constantly bombarded by anti-Assad articles by Western media, I am providing references to sites that give an alternate view. As Peter said, you read into them what you want; but if you have wisdom and read the spin from BOTH sides you may get closer to the truth.

By the way imb1248 did your research pick up that there are 2 organisations calling themselves the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights?; the original and non-partisan version; or the FALSE and biased version led by a former employee who was dismissed for proclaiming himself as their spokesman and who called for a 'no fly' zone.

I notice you didn't touch the FBI whistle blower story

"Former FBI translator, Sibel Edmonds, in an interview with Russia Today (RT) on December 16, had claimed that Washington is arming the anti-government rebels in Syria. Watch the video below.

Both former CIA agent Robert Baer and ex-MI6 officer Alastair Crooke point out that the Syrian people definitely want change, but not in the form of a NATO “humanitarian” assault."

As to Chossudovsky you mis-quote the criticism levelled at him so for the benefit of the readers here is the full second paragraph

"An article in The Jewish Tribune has also criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." B'nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum moderated by Chossudovsky that questioned how many Jews died in the holocaust. Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[27] The same article also reported that B'nai Brith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa asking for the university "to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site."[27]

I doubt that the Jewish Tribune or B'nai Brith are unbiased sources.

So it appears that you accuse me of selective readings but do the same thing yourself. Consistency imb1248?

Peter I have no need for an iron bridge but thank you for the offer but if you have a paper one with 5 bob written on I accept.

I have 3 comments to make re your posts.

1 "There comes a point where you have to use force to protect the civilian population" My response. You have to be sure that the civilian population wants your protection ( see the comment above by the ex-CIA and MI6 officers, and..)

"Most Syrians back President Assad, but you'd never know from western media 21 January 2012
The Guardian’s former international affairs correspondent debunks the Western media and their governments’ distorted view on Syria. If the Arab League mission in the country is challenged, it is not because it lacks objectivity, but because it is likely to reveal the extent of the deception: President Bashar al-Assad enjoys wide support among his people, who are well aware that, behind the armed militias that are sowing terror in the country, lurks NATO’s shadow and that of its clients."

2 "Perhaps those air bases in Turkey might be key?" Listen to the video I referenced above.

3 "did you even bother to do the slightest research on The Wisdom Fund"...
and Peter did you not even read the article you refer to? It relates to whether or not an aircraft hit the Pentagon not as you imply, that Muslims did not do 9/11.

Peter/imb1248, the writing is on the wall. The parallels between Libya and Syria are there for all to see

1 relatively minor ( in numbers) popular unrest

2 Usurping that protest movement by armed 'gangs' supported by 'outside interests

3 A firestorm of deceitful misinformation by those 'outside interests' to drown out factual reports

Go to Voltairenet.org and read the articles "In Libya now the truth is coming out" 4 Feb 2012; and "Lebanese Security officials seize suspicious cargo from US, Brazil." 8 Feb 2012.

The latter report seems to indicate that the US may well be placing weapons in such a position knowing that they will pass into the hands of Al Quaeda.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Oh how we have to twist and weave when first we practice to deceive.

Compare this report with what you have read in the Media.

Report of the Head of the League of Arab States Observer Mission to Syria for the period from 24 December 2011 to 18 January 2012

Voltaire Network | 2 February 2012

"The problem is that the report confirms the version of the Syrian government and demolished that of the West and the Gulf monarchies. In particular, it demonstrates that there were no lethal crackdowns on peaceful demonstrators and that all the commitments made by Damascus have been scrupulously honored. It also validates the important fact that the country is in the grips of armed groups, who are responsible for the death of hundreds of Syrian civilians and thousands among the military, as well as for hundreds of acts of terrorism and sabotage."

Gavin-H...SUCCESS

But ..........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

Mgb1248, firstly an apology. I have been referring to you as img for some reason.
I do not see the point or relevance of your post. If you want me to agree that Assad both father and son are not nice people, Ok, they are not nice people.

But no matter how you twist and skirm, Assad has been found by the Arab League Monitoring team to be abiding by his word, releasing prisoners, withdrawing troops from many areas etc; exactly as he said he would. The monitoring group went further and placed most of the blame for the killings and the terrorist acts on the armed bands.

One report I read recently is that 3 of the identified dead ( in Syria) are from the CIA team that entered Libya in May/ June last year

"This week, former Libyan rebel fighters from the city of Misurata announced the combat deaths of three Libyan comrades fighting against the Syrian regime. Many former rebel fighters speak approvingly of heading to Syria to join an increasingly armed uprising against Mr Assad."

There are other reports of US military aircraft moving Libyan rebels and arms to an airbase in Southern Turkey from where they cross the border.

Try to be relevant with your next post.

maszki, you need to do your research, even when it will debunk your view of the world. The claims about the Pentagon have been made by all manner of crackpots, almost always in conjunction with the attacks in New York on the same day. I will simply repeat, only anti-US Government crackpots persist in these idiotic theories about what happened on Sept. 11 2001.

For the Pentagon attack to have been the work of the US Government, it requires, at the very least, accurate forewarning of what was going to happen in New York. Otherwise the Pentagon attack could not have happened.

I am sure you are happy to believe that the US Government was duplicitous and attacked the Pentagon independently, taking advantage of the other terrorist actions.

I simply ask, why bother? Don't you think the murder of thousands in New York was enough to achieve whatever objective you subscribe the US Government's motive to be? Or, do you believe the whole series of attacks were the act of the US Government? That is the logical conclusion to your beliefs, surely?

As to Assad scrupulously sticking to all his commitments and promises...well, what can I say? You have repeated the claim that this is true. You obviously subscribe to the theory that Qatar is withholding a report that proves that. I suppose the Arab League monitors packed up and went home because they couldn't find any problems in Syria then? they were lying when they stated they could not achieve their objectives?

Tell it to the people in Homs. but better do it soon, while they still live!

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Iran sends head of elite force to Syria to advise Assad regime on repression tactics.

This article appears in todays The Sydney Morning Herald.

Are we seeing a prelude to Iran?

Ummmmm ... that's MBG

The bottom line in the drivel that you post is that you can see intrigue and conspiracy in only one side of every conflict while the other side is always an innocent victim without ambitions, ruthlessly exploited by your "axis-of-evil".

But even a half-wit knows that this is pure drivel and that even if your contentions are true the other side is playing exactly the same game. All you are accomplishing with each comment posted is digging deeper into your bottomless pit of bu****it.

As I predicted earlier, a discussion where there are a number of vehemently opposing views and there is no middle ground will eventually descend into chaos.

Either view could be correct, I don't know, nor do any of us really.

One thing is for certain though, Stampboards isn't the place for individuals to denigrate others whatever their views

If this happens again, the offending posts will be deleted by moderators and the offender will be given a warning and or/banned from posting here for a period of time.

So let's have a civilised discussion on something else please, after all there's more going on in the world than the Syrian issue

_________________
Tony

Many opposing views are equally plausible and I can post links to serious articles in serious journals that express different opinions on the situation in Syria. All of these articles, despite their differences, are based on reality and as such they treat their readers with respect. What we have here is one person presenting a scenario based on fantasy and preconceived opinions, one that insults the intelligence of the readers' in general and specifically slurs others.

Lakatoi 4. My apologies to all concerned if I have written anything that is offensive to them; that was never my intent, but only to offer an alternate view.

I conclude my involvement in this discussion.

With "friends" like these.... It appears that Al Qaeda has announced their support for the uprising in Syria. Must be the first time both Al Qaeda and the West have agreed on anything.

Certainly not the sort of support the rebels need, only allows Assad to claim that it is an Al Qaeda inspired rebellion, full of terrorists!

So far the Russians seem to have achieved nothing. There has been no ceasefire and no letup in the assault of Homs, amongst other places.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Meanwhile, the economic recovery in the USA seems to be continuing. Although consumer sentiment was up less than predicted, it was still up for January. And the January Federal deficit for January was only US$27B, much less than expected (in fact the lowest monthly figure for a long time) after increases in tax revenue and reduced Federal spending.

Don't hold you breath that the low deficit figure is anything more than a statistical quirk, though. It's just an artifact of timing and does not represent a sudden rectitude as regards spending and the payment of taxes.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Is Russia really going to do anything in this conflict besides prolonging it?

Russia wants (perhaps needs) to be considered important again. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union their influence has continually waned. Dare I suggest that a diplomatic coup might have suited Putin down to the ground, with an election in the offing? Is that being too cynical?

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Even Australian mainstream media is beginning to see the light on Syria.

Peter, is ABC a 'conspiracy' channel?

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3827746.html#

It is a personal opinion piece (by an academic), NOT an ABC report from an ABC reporter. Just like the BBC, the ABC charter requires all views to be represented and/or accessible (however whacky).

You can take my word for it, (or not, it is of little concern to me) the ABC runs the reports from BBC and other reporters on the ground in Homs every night on the main news at 7pm. Every report shows the ongoing shelling and the ongoing civilian casualties.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Of course it does. All part of manufacturing consent for a liberal 'humanitarian intervention' (previously known as gunboat diplomacy)

Oh, I see now. Any report or opinion piece that supports your view of the world is balanced and accurate. Anything that doesn't support your view is biased and designed to meet some devious (usually imperialistic and capitalistic) end? What a simple world you live in. Happily, most of us live in the real world and can recognise a despot when we see one.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Like Dame Melba, I return- but momentarily- to point out to Peter that his quote applies but in an opposite sense to his own position.

Peter, did you read the AL report? ( and the answer to your question in a previous post is 'Yes".)

Assad did not propose the Monitoring team.
Assad did not select the Monitoring team
Assad did not prepare the Terms of Reference for the team
Assad was in Syria and the team out of Syria when the team wrote their report..

..BUT... now, Assad is being accused by the 'pro' camp as having 'bribed' or otherwise influenced the team as to what they should put in their report.

Yes Peter people are being killed in Syria. Something like 6000 at last report, of whom 2000 are Syrian military personnel. Of the other 4000, how many are 'civilians' and how many are 'armed civilians'? Do you know?

Is the life of a dead soldier worth less than the life of an 'armed civilian' or less than the life of a 'civilian'.

Yes Peter, ALL the killing has to stop. A ceasefire is neded..oops, that is the Russian/Chinese view, can't have that as that is not your REAL world.

Iran has announced that it has used Iranian made nuclear fuel in a reactor for the first time.
They are showing determination as they make progress with their nuclear program, regardless of international sanctions.

So, what is next for Iran?

maszki, you need to recheck your facts (or perhaps just put them in context). The Arab League monitoring team was indeed out of Syria when they wrote their report. They had left after realising there was nothing they could do to stop the killing! Or is your claim now that they were never in Syria in the first place?

Assad is missing thousands of soldiers, not because teh rebels have managed to kill them (they have rifles against tanks, artillery and helicopters) but because so many have defected.

And as for those dreaded 'armed citizens', they sure are recruiting them young!

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter it is clear that you have not taken the time to read , or understand, the report.

A couple of today's news stories that may add interest to this thread.

"Pakistan has pledged to support Iran if the US launches a military attack against the Islamic Republic. The Pakistani president assured the Iranian leader that his country’s territory will not be used as a launch pad for such an assault.

­Should the United Stated decide to attack Iran, Pakistan will not support the move and will not allow the US to use its local airbases for military operations, the Pakistani leader Asif Ali Zardari said on Friday.

His assurances of support came during a meeting of the leaders of Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan in Islamabad. The talks are seen as Pakistan’s way of sending a message of defiance to the US." (Russia Today)

Remember that Pakistan has both nuclear weapons and long range delivery systems, which leads in to the second news report

"Meanwhile, Turkey has denied Israel the right to use intelligence from its NATO radar system. In the wake of a recent US-Israel joint missile test and the ongoing tensions between Ankara and Tel Aviv, Turkish FM Ahmet Davutoglu said on Friday that any intelligence gathered by the NATO facilities should not be shared with a third country, especially if the country is Israel."

and from the BBC

"Hague fears Iran could start 'new Cold War'

Iran's nuclear ambitions could plunge the Middle East into "a new Cold War", the UK foreign secretary has warned.

Interviewed by the Daily Telegraph, William Hague said if Iran developed nuclear weapons then "other nations across the Middle East will want to".

Without "the safety mechanisms" of the US-USSR rivalry, Mr Hague said it would be "a disaster in world affairs".

The West suspects Iran wants to develop nuclear weapons, but Tehran insists its programme is for energy purposes.

Mr Hague told the newspaper there was a "crisis coming down the tracks".

"If [the Iranians] obtain nuclear weapons capability, then I think other nations across the Middle East will want to develop nuclear weapons."

I wonder if Mr Haig has heard of a Middle East state called 'Israel"?

What have these reports got to do with Syria?
What an interesting question.

In the meantime, Ehud Barak the Israeli Defense Minister has called to accelerate the pace of imposing sanctions while making them crippling and consequential.
Barak added that despite the Western sanctions inflicting increasing damage on Iran's economy, he has not seen any sign that Iran was ready to give up its nuclear program.

While, the US and EU have expressed cautious optimism over Iran's willingness to return to talks on its nuclear program. The US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, speaking about an Iranian letter to resume talks with the US and its allies was one that they have been waiting for.

Hopefully then it's just sabre rattling on Iran's part, yet for all their sabre rattling North Korea is still in the same precarious state, it didn't work to well for them

I'm still of the opinion it's all a prelude to something else. After all Iraq is not the threat to Iran as it once was, so perhaps the time is ripe now that the northern winter is drawing to a close and before the summer hits

I would have thought the sabres were rattling louder in Israel and the USA (NATO has already begged off, probably due to the ICC investigations into whether NATO committed war crimes in Libya)

Lakatoi, the thought that it is a prelude to something else is what terrifies me. The indications are that Syria must go so that the US/Israel can isolate Iran.

But after Iran, who next?

maszki, you really are a conspiracy theorist aren't you? Why can you just not accept that what is going on in Syria is a continuation of the Arab Spring? The protests in Syria started in March 2011. The Assad regime, like others before it, came down hard on peaceful protests. The army was used to attempt to crush any dissent. All that did was make things spiral out of control.

Syrians simply wanted more democracy, at the start. Instead, what they got was repression and it has started a civil war. There is zero evidence that the US or Israel or anybody else in the West is arming the rebels. If they are, they are doing a piss poor job of it! AK47s against tanks, helicopters and artillery.

BTW, your friends the Iranians seem intent on bringing reprisals on themselves. They cannot even find some competent agents to carry out their Embassy bombings for them. The group that tried to carry out a bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Bangkok only managed to get themselves caught (one of the bombers blew his own legs off!).

Iran is still some way off from being able to build a nuclear weapon. The Mad Mullahs would be wiser to keep their heads down and not give anybody a reason to launch an attack.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Arab Spring?

Don't be so naive. Libya had troops on the ground from the UK at least against UN resolution.

Syria is more interesting; the Syrian govt is non religious; so we want more Muslim Brotherhoods in control of Syria if we get rid of the current Govt ??? The Syrian govt is supported by the Christians, for interest. Read http://www.aljazeera.com/ (which is funded by Qatar govt) who incidentally also supported the regime change in Libya...

The anti Syrian (and anti Iranian) view is very simplistic; do you really want to overthrow the non-sectarian devil you know with worse sectarian devils?

( I might add, to throw in the mix, the West keeps on about democracy; Hamas in the West Bank got in democratically. And Israel bleats about Iran. The best guess now is Israel has 300 nuclear bombs and sits on land well outside its legal international borders on land conquered by violence over decades and has the USA many times vetoing UN resolutions. Iran has never started a war and has never fought one except on its own soil when it was invaded by Iraq who did so with the support of the UK and the USA govt in the 1980s.)

Makes you think...

Israel is actually the mad mullah land.

- It sits outside its legal borders.
- On land conquered by violence
- Against international law
- Has started a zillion wars
- Has at best guess 300 nuclear warheads
- Imposes collective punishment against international law
- Cries 'foul' when people use a bit of force against it when that is the teaching which it has given the area
- Has taken Jerusalem against international law (see, establishment of Israel UN, Jersualem to be an international city)
- Has more than enough of its own terrorists; see Irgun, Haganah, King of David Hotel, Deir Yassan massacre and that most of its political classes were drawn form these terrorist groups such as Golda Meir

I see, so we should deny the inhabitants of a country (Syria) their right to change their government if they choose (because teh devil we know is better for us). But, at the same time, we should berate Israel for being less than happy that a terrorist organisation was voted into power in Gaza??

I would be more than happy to see Hamas abrogate the use of force and stop the rocket attacks on Israel and for Israel to reciprocate by recognising the legitimacy of Hamas as a government freely elected. I won't be holding my breath on either count!

I, personally, believe in the inalienable right of people to vote for any government they choose. If it turns out to be Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood then so be it. As long as they behave rationally, constitutionally and within the norms of international law, they should be left alone to get on with it. If they become aggressors against others or suppress those that elected them then they will follow down the same path of their predecessors.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

What complete and utter crap! Israel has long been a democracy. The days of terrorism against the British are long gone. The then 'terrorists' (they, of course, saw themselves as freedom fighters) became members of the legitimate government. Of course, that has never occurred before, anywhere in world history!

As for starting 'a zillion wars', my memory records the 1949 war (started by the Arab nations), the 1967 6 day war (pre-empting a combined Egyptian/Syrian/Jordanian attack the Israelis believed was coming) and the 1973 war (initiated by Egypt).

There was also the 1956 Suez war, but that was initiated by Britain and France.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Funny democracy which classes people of a different race as untermenschen. Apartheid lives on in the Zionist Entity.

I presume that statement was intended to be deliberately inflammatory, given the terminology (and it's connotation) used. Personally, I find such use of deliberately insulting language to be despicable and beneath contempt.

Another thread I am going to cease my involvement in.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I take it from your reaction that you have now read and understood the AL Monitor's Report and that, like many others, you were mis-informed as to what is really going on in Syria?

Drh, nobody can deny that Israel is a 'democracy'.

So was pre-war Germany ( Hitler and his political party WERE elected). The important point is what your elected government then does with that power. Does it act for the good of its people? Or does it embark upon external adventures, under the guise of bringing 'democracy', 'freedom', 'human rights' or 'national security'; to force THEIR views onto others (colonialism by another name).

PS. As to 'democratic processes', who is your pick to buy the US presidency later this year?

Sorry Peter, I'm not sure who you are referring to here; the USA or Israel?

I really could not let this lot slip through to the keeper...



[My response

What about South Vietnam? South Africa (remember Mandela?)?
How about Ghandi and India? How about even the good o'l US of A a la 1776. Also you forget Hamas which I note you now accept was democratically elected to govern Palestine.]



[My response

Also Lebanon twice and Gaza once.

Interesting comment about justifing a pre-emptive assault because you 'believe' something is going to happen. The USA 'believed' in the domino theory and killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. The USA 'believed' that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction ( despite all the evidence to the contrary) and killed 100-800,000 Iraqis; The USA/NATO 'believed' that there would be a bloodbath if Gaddafi's troops reached Benghazi and launched a war ( without a declaration) killing thousands of Libyans.

Now the USA 'believes' that the Syrian uprising has popular support and wants to kill a few Syrians' (despite the AL report which indicates that Assad does have considerable public support)

And finally, the USA 'believes' ( again, despite there being no evidence to support that belief) that Iran wants to build a nuclear bomb and so are prepared to launch themselves (or through their proxy Israel) a pre-emptive strike which will kill a few more people.

If Iran really wanted 'the bomb' it would be a simple matter to obtain one or several from Pakistan or North Korea.

'We believe'....what a great excuse for starting wars and killing thousands of people.

MODERATOR COMMENT

As predicted, this topic was always going to have entirely opposing views which will never be reconciled. Nobody is prepared to listen to the other person's argument and there is no middle ground.

You know it's a perfect example of why these conflicts continue, whether it be on here on Stampboards, or on the streets of a country racked by religious intolerance and tinpot dictators.

This topic is now locked.