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There will be a referendum in a couple of years (far sooner if the PM gets his way) for the 5 million or so Scots to vote whether they want to stay pretty much "as is" - or cut themselves free to levy their own taxes, and sell their own oil etc.

That is briefly how I understand the vote proposal - others in the UK might comment if wrong.

PM David Cameron of course does NOT want Independence to occur, and seems to have upped the rhetoric this week, and is already dangling juicy little carrots to torpedo a YES vote -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17052800

The Scots comprise way less than 10% of UK population as far as I can see.

Yet Scots I'd suggest have provided way more than 10% of most celebrated designers, engineers, noted scientists, inventors, entertainers, artists, sportsmen, authors, and true financial success stories,

So Scots they have had a strong history of punching WAY above their weight over recent centuries.

Indeed remove all Scots from "UK Success Stories of the past 200 years" and that book suddenly looks awfully thin.

They are of course also fiercely independent thinking, and many I know are not too keen on having anything whatever to do with the "Mexicans" - South Of The Border.

I am not Scottish and not British, nor were my parents or grandparents, so at least my views are not skewed as necessarily many others views are - and will be here.

I have no idea what the ongoing value of North Sea oil and gas and fishing is, but have always understood that resource is very valuable? Others may know more detail.

It does seem that roughly about £10 BILLION a year is around the current value of the North Sea Oil off Scotland according to BBC -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17052800

Not chicken feed for a small new country to cheerfully gobble up with glee.

Anyone can go independent if they have a secure base of natural resources and good infrastructure and a trained workforce to exploit it.

Western Australia could secede tomorrow and be incredibly viable financially, as the resources over there are simply mind boggling - and that indeed may occur in our lifetime.

So what to members feel - in 5 years will Scotland be part of the UK as now ... or on the way to determining her own destiny?

My overview from 10,000 miles away is that the UK in general is in a steady and sad decline. The Empire is no longer, Manufacturing industries are a pale shadow of 50 years back, higher unemployment, a weakening Sterling, and few valuable natural resources if the Scots go free.

More wide ranging reading - for and against - on this subject is here.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=&q=s ... dependence

Glen

I doubt that it matters a great deal what any English politician whats. If a potential wealth source is laid before the Scots, then it is inevitable that the union will dissolve one day, it might as well be now. Besides, there would have to be very few ethnic Scots. or even Britons left across the British Isles.

Most were 'encouraged' to relocate years ago, and they did. They conquered and colonised North America, the Pacific, and a few other places. Whats left back in Britian would be lucky to trace their ancestry back beyond their father or mother!

As to the value of the assets. I believe what had value might have been pawned years ago, and all the Scots will get is the pawn ticket. However, you could be right and my views might be 'skewed?'

Huanga.

I know Bank of Scotland issues its own banknotes, how does that system work? Are Bank of England (BoE) and Bank of Scotland (BoS) notes valid in Scotland, but BoS notes are not valid in the other parts of the UK?

When discussing the concept of identity and grounds for independence, geographers have a list of things a place should/needs to have to exist on its own:

- a history of independence that can be referred back to: Scotland was a kingdom on its own before
- a sense of unity: do people in the 'breakaway' want to go off, or is it just a mission pushed by a small cadre would be become the ruling elite ('personal benefit to a few')
- a language: check (Scots Gaelic, although how widely used it is is another matter)
- a flag: check
- a currency: check (in a sense, as I asked above; and I'm sure the bureaucrats would spend years trying to sort out the accounting arrangements if Scotland went it own their own)
- passports (well that comes later, after independence is declared)
- national anthem

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Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

In 'theory' yes, but in practice the Mexicans are not delighted to be offered high value Scottish notes.

I've had even a Bureau Du Change at Heathrow refuse to accept Northern Ireland high value Sterling notes.

Three Scottish banks still issue notes: Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland and Clydesdale Bank.

I've lived in England for thirty years now and I've never had a problem getting a Scottish bank note accepted down here.

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Nigel

I well remember in the 50's going down to Blackpool for the Holidays, and tendering a Scottish Pound Note, but only getting 19/6 for it.

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Try tendering a 100 quid Scottish note at a British pub and see how you go - they knocked me back.

A single or a fiver no biggie, but they do NOT like 100's.

Anyway, lets hear member views please, on whether the referendum will pass - or not!

Different matter entirely. Try passing a £50 Bank of England note and you wouldn't get it accepted in a pub, nor in many high street stores. I didn't even know the Scots were producing notes of a higher value than the UK (BofE) ones.

There are very few £50 notes circulating among ordinary people - I've asked when making large withdrawals from one bank to pay into another (to reduce the bulk in m pocket), and they very rarely have fifties.

Edit: "Try tendering a 100 quid Scottish note at a British pub and see how you go" yes, I'm glad you used the term British, because that includes Scotland, and I doubt that you would be able to pass it in a Scottish pub either!!

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

And as for the referendum - the vote will happen but it will be a no.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

At the moment he polls say it will just fail , but the poll support for it is increasing. See http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/scottish-independence for more polls on this issue than you want to know.

Most interesting is for a simple 'independence yes/ no by the known ICM provides a 40% for independence, 43% against. 13 January 2012. (Other results are different, but you need to know who are known pollsters and who aren't.) But that is not based on potential wordings of the referndum question.

It also depends markedly on the wording used; 'do want to leave the UK' result gets a markedly different result to 'Do you want Scotland to be independent?'

It also depends on when the referendum is set; SNP want it as close to 23 June 2014 which will be close to the 700th anniversary of the Battle Of Bannockburn as possible-- which was the defeat of the English will enabled Scottish Independence.

The English don't want that. The Scots also want 16 and 17 to vote. The English don't. Also, by waiting till then and the Tory dominated Westminster parliament continues to slash and burn the Govt sector (unlike Australia we are really hit over here buy austerity measures) then that will increase dislike for Westminster.

And one must not ignore Alex Salmon, the Head of the SNP and Scotland's First Minister; he is the smartest and most liked politician in the country.

The more often the Tory PM Cameron goes to Scotland the more votes go towards independence. Why? Firstly the Tories are basically nearly unelectable in Scotland, so when an Englishman from an unelectable party goes up to tell the Scots to keep the current situation the more undecided people say 'get stuffed'.

Even if the referendum is lost Cameron has already offered more powers to the Scottish parliament.

If lost, the referendum will be put again inside 20 years. Why do I say this? The first Scottish devolution bill was lost in 1979 due to Westminster chicanery which the Scottish people remember well; the majority of people voted for devolution but not enough voted.

The % who had to vote was higher than the amount who vote at elections today! So, in 1997 the next referendum for devolution passed. So, if this referendum fails then it merely means wait for the next. It does not stop the argument.

The genie of Independence is out and will not go back in the bottle. Not least as the SNP are the party of Government and are doing a very good job. (Again, not least as Salmond is very smart, not merely intellectually, but politically. As well, the opposition members are very weak.)

Much as I loathe Tony Blair I think he will be remembered in the history books for two reasons:

1) The illegal, immoral and pointless Iraq war, and
2) Starting the breakup of the (semi) United Kingdom ('Semi', because Scotland always kept some independent powers, noticeably health, education and law).

Interesting to note .That None of our Resident SCOTS have made a comment yet,

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Who cares?????

Only you, whining the Mexicans once robbed you of 6d.

That Scottish tight-fisted stereotype is preserved perfectly.

well 6d went a long way in the 50,s you could see a movie for that.

But I am no longer a RESIDENT but we do have a few Scots who actually live there, and I for one would be interested in their views,

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

I thought the referendum is to be 2 questions.
In that case depending on what is meant by independent the answer will be "yes".
But perhaps not to both questions, more a yes/no.

PS - Much depends on the Mayan's.

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Agree - Australia woud be a Republic now, if not for incredibly cunning wording of the referendum questions by our then Prime Minister John Howard, who would rather have chopped his head off than see us become one.

Had ozzies been asked a few years back: "Do you want Australia to become a Republic?" the "YES" answer would have been about 70% most agree.

Ask 100 people "what do you prefer, black or white?"
51 say white.

Results of poll? "Most people are racists."

Actual meaning of question - "which wedding dress colour is better?"
Want a different result? Only poll "goths."


Didn't the Aussie referedum get buried in the argument around how to choose a President? Which clouded the issue.

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

The English elite will continue to meddle,the Scottish elite will continue to squabble and the rest of us will continue to shake our heads............same old s**t just a different day

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I wish i knew then,what i know now.

If there is a vote on Scottish Independence, the ENGLISH should be entitled to vote.

I would vote YES every time. Why?

English taxes have subsidised left-wing Scottish policies for years, if not decades. Spending on benefits and health is higher in Scotland, all paid for ultimately from Westminster (except for the paltry tax-raising rights of the Scottish Parliament).

Scottish MPs have voted on English issues for centuries - while jealously guarding their "privilege" to determine their own affairs north of the border. Turfing 70-odd Scottish MPs out of Westminster would effectively guarantee Conservative rule for England, leading to lower taxes and increased wealth for the individual.

And as for North Sea Oil, sure, let Scotland keep the revenues for it. But let the English companies who invested BILLIONS in prospecting for it and getting it out be compensated fully for those investments.

How entertaining the thought that Scotland will vote against Scottish independence while England would vote for it

'Now that Cameron appears to have ruled out the status quo by promising greater devolution to the Scots if they vote no to independence, we're likely to hear more about how great Britain is in the days to come. For jingo is the default reaction of the English ruling class when they feel their interests are under threat. Unsure about our true position in a changing world, they hold onto the Union Jack like a comfort blanket, wrapping themselves in it to enhance their sense of importance.

While the Scots seem confident about their future, a Little Englander mentality is in danger of taking hold south of the border, in which every external challenge is perceived as a threat.'

from a Billy Bragg article in today's Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... bing-power

'English taxes have subsidised left-wing Scottish policies for years, if not decades.'

Rubbish; the North Sea oil was Scotland's...

No, the North Sea Oil was Britain's - and don't forget the North Sea gas, much of which is 'harvested' off-shore in the southern North Sea and is brought ashore in Norfolk. We can see the rigs from the beach!

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Who gets to vote in this referendum?

Many English work in Scotland and many Scots work in England.

Is it who actually lives in Scotland on voting day?

Or, perhaps the question is who should get to vote?

Found this a few minutes ago:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... dence.html

If the Scots do become independent I wonder how Toad of Toad Hall would handle a request for independence from the Shetlands, with all "their" oil.

As an Englishman I am fed up with the whingeing Scots blaming me for everything, and would vote to get rid of them.

Under a wonderful formula around 10% of the population there receives 11% of the cake. So presumably they will take 11% of the national debt with them.

Britcollector.

I think that you will find that a FEW English work in Scotland with loads of Scots down here.

The English are not particularly welcome in Scotland. except perhaps as tourists.

If the English are not welcome in Scotland, it may be just that the Scots are reciprocating your attitude! And no, I am not a Scot working "down here".

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You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you

Someone has to ask: where are the English particularly welcome?

Clive

That's about as accurate Glen maintaining that the Queen is not particularly welcome in Australia

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Right...resident Scot here with his personal view.

I don't think the proposed referendum (2014) will gain sufficient support. However it's true that the more meddling done by the current Westminster government will result in a higher vote FOR independence. My own opinion is to leave matters for the Scots themselves to decide & the rest should "butt out".

Alex Salmond (note the spelling) is probably the most astute political leader in the UK just now. He can certainly "eat Cameron & Milliband for breakfast". Anyone who underestimates Salmond does so at their peril.

For quite a while there has been a steady 33% (or so) of the Scottish voters who want independence whilst the two other main (UK) parties want the staus quo.

Labour won't want to lose their Scottish MPs otherwise they'll NEVER form another government (no bad thing in my view) & the "Tory" (Conservative & Unionist) Party don't want the Scots to go otherwise they'd be accused of breaking up the very union they hold so dear!!

At the end of the day I have no idea which way things will go...personally I'm for the staus quo....even though I consider myself Scots, or Scottish, first & British second.

Andy

PS Scottish banks issue notes with the approval of the Bank of England. Scotland's banks have issued £100 notes for as long as I can remember & yes I've had a few "dirty" looks when changing them "South of the Border".

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If it ain't broke.....fix it 'til it is!!

http://www.lanarkshireps.co.uk

They are welcomed with open arms in Argentina I understand.

Andy, what's the reaction when presenting £50 and £100 notes at a bar in Scotland (anywhere, not just the cities)?

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

For goodness sakes I know you guys are in an economic Funk right now, but a round of drinks for a table or 4 will run 20 quid at many a place - are you seriously saying a 50 or 100 note will spook anyone????

That's a couple of rounds of drinks. Less at Heathrow.

They have 500 Euro notes in the real world across the water for heavens sake, and seem to cope just fine!

Ian, I honestly don't know nowadays...seldom, if ever, do I drink in (what used to be) my "local". I do know a lot of places won't accept either £50 or £100 but that's because they don't want to be caught out by forgeries.

As for the "trendy" nightspots in Glasgow or Edinburgh? I would think that, at their prices, they'll quite happily take them. It's also true a lot of them now take plastic in payment rather than cash.

Andy

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If it ain't broke.....fix it 'til it is!!

http://www.lanarkshireps.co.uk

Yes, to all your points except that in many places you can get a round of drinks for 4 for less than £20.

Like I said, most high street stores will not accept £50 notes. ATMs dispense 20s and 10s, and sometimes 5s, because there are still many thinks you can buy for less than a tenner. My week's newspaper bill just paid is £6.50.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Yes, that's the two common reasons -forgeries, and high volumes of cash kept overnight or passed to the cash security firms.
If they take 5s and 10s they can give them out in change. If they take 20s they can give them out as cash-back on DR card payments. If they take 50s they are stuck with them, nobody wants them and they have to pass them through to the banks - and it costs money to have a cash-handling service take your cash away.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Well when the Scots get their independence, they can hopefully mail down food parcels and aid, and Pork Pies by the box, if tendering a 50 quid note send the Brits into a forgery lather.

The mere fact only the Scots can be trusted to issue and use 100 pound notes speaks volumes about the economic shift over there.

Have you folks LOOKED at (I know you have allegedly 'never' seen one of course) a new £50? Go borrow one from a Bank perhaps?

50 quid does represent the cost of a small air parcel to Australia of course, or a mid price dinner for 2, but it appears no normal impoverished Brit can be expected to spend that much money at one time, else Scotland Yard be called in to check it all out.

The Federal Reserve could not forge one, they have so many anti counterfeit features. NOBODY has forged one.

You can't even SCAN it, as your scanner will stop! Try it.

The new £50 will deliver a significant update in security features, carrying eight features for cash users compared to the five of its predecessor.

One of these features, called Motion Thread, includes semi-translucent windows woven into the note that show the £ symbol and the number 50 when held up to the light.

"When a note is tilted from side to side, the images move up and down. And when the note is tilted up and down, the images move from side to side and the number 50 and £ symbol switch.

Well, my biggest concern out of all this is the Flags! The union jack will change!

Therefore the aussie flag will also change!

The Union Jack:




Two hypothetical Australian Flags:

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Collecting Australian FRAMA stamps on Commercial covers.

I made these myself, if you think about it, the union jack colour blue will be removed to symbolise the new Union after Scotland's Independence.

Australia will most likely change its flag accordingly

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Collecting Australian FRAMA stamps on Commercial covers.

Why don't you have a go at crime in England while you're at it?

Truth is many people would rather carry plastic than high value notes. I rarely have more than £20 in my pocket except when I'm likely to use more cash, eg at stamp fairs.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

I'll add my Scottish tuppence worth.

Firstly, most of my Scottish friends are so fed up with politishams that they do not know what way to vote. From my distant view in Korea it would seem to be an even 3-way split between Yes/ No/ and Don't Know.

Secondly, I have never heard any English Prime Minister explain why they refuse to allow Scottish independence in one breath and with another claim that Scotland gets more than its fair share of money. That makes NO sense.

Especially when you remember that in the greed of the Thatcher years, they would have sold their own grandmothers for a fast buck.

Another point about the union. I don't know if it is true, but I've heard it said that the Union was broken when The Poll Tax was levied on Scotland and not England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Finally, I've always believed that the Westminster government would allow Scotland to be independent the day after the oil runs out.

Gavin-h wrote Quote: "...let the English companies who invested BILLIONS in prospecting for it and getting it out be compensated fully for those investments."

Are people out there under the impression that oil companies work for charity? That all their money goes to good causes and the local cat and dog home?

LET THEM BE COMPENSATED????? WHAT???? I'm quite sure the oil companies have made a couple of quid profit over the years!

Personally, I'm in the 'Undecided' camp as I haven't heard any current arguments for or against.

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It's good to shoot the breeze with like-minded people.

Do you reckon they would go with the Euro or come up with their own currency?

"Going with the euro" is subject to strict economic criteria that Scotland hasn't got a hope of satisfying until it has had an independent identity and economy for some years.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

"Going with the euro" is subject to strict economic criteria.........

norvic, I do like your sense of humour.

Huanga.

They must have tightened the rules up some after they let in Spain and Greece and some others.

Something else occurred to me after reading the whole topic from the start. If my understanding is correct:

- Mr. Cameron's Conservatives enjoy little support in Scotland, while Mr. Miliband's Labour party has significant support in Scotland.

- The Labour support in Scotland is large enough that its loss would hurt the British Labour Party badly and perhaps diminish its ability to contest elections in the future.

- Every time Mr. Cameron visits Scotland to beat the drum against independence, the percentage of people favoring independence actually increases.

- But independence for Scotland would have little effect on the Conservatives but be deadly to Labour. And he keeps visiting.



To use an American expression, maybe Mr. Cameron is "dumb like a fox" ??

Whether the criteria are right or not, or still apply, is another matter, I was simply answering the question, "would Scotland adopt the euro?". It isn't a matter of Scotland adopting the euro, more a matter of the euro-zone members accepting Scotland:

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Just as an aside on this subject. You cannot ask such a question without also proposing a mechanism to replace the current Governor General, who is the Queen's official representative. But who is, already (in all but name) the official Head of State of the Commonwealth of Australia in any event.

The day the pro-Republicans can come up with a unified approach (and one that does not involve directly electing a Head of State, God help us we have enough politicians as it is) is probably the day we will be headed for a Republic of Australia.

The trouble is, the Republicans cannot even agree amongst themselves on the form a Republic would take!

As to Scottish independence, I sincerely doubt that it will get up. It is very similar to the situation in Canada, with Quebec. All sorts of noise and claims of majority, until a referendum is actually held. The silent majority then let their views be known.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Tend to disagree a bit about The Scottish situation being the same as Quebec.

Quebec has NEVER actually been a Country on its own,whereas Scotland has been,

That makes a BIG difference,

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Ron, it has been a long time since Scotland was any sort of separate country. You should just be grateful the English decided to take you under their wing and civilise you. Hell, even the Romans decided the Scots were not worth the trouble and walled them out

Seriously though, I cannot envisage Scotland becoming a separate country again, can you? North sea oil will not last for long and then what? Haggis manufacturing and export?

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.