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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 01:48:38 am 
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It seems like this has been listed on ebay forever, but in less than 30 minutes, the US 220b "Cap on Right 2" looks like it will sell with at least one bid of $25,000.

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/NYPF-Certifies-Very-1st-Ever-US-220-Cap-Right-Scott-220b-SEE-ALL-IMAGES-/230726913577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b8654e29

There is a fairly lengthy writeup in the listing about the certification process they went through.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 02:06:01 am 
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The write up is well worth reading. I'll make a copy and post here later.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 02:08:14 am 
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Here's the text from eBay


Quote:
You are bidding on “The King Arthur” of stamps.
All of the experts have heard of the legend, but no one has ever proven it, until now.
This is the very first and only known, P.F. Certified, Graded Fine 70, U.S. used 220 cap on right in the world.
Yes that’s right, in the world.

Facts You Need To Know:

UPDATES: This stamp has been listed in the catalog of "The Swedish Tiger", the largest stamp website in the world. It is also featured on "The Stamp Collecting Round-Up" website. "Very Special Thanks" to Roger Kirby, owner of "The Swedish Tiger", and Don Schilling, Editor/Publisher - "The Stamp Collecting Round-Up". Many thanks!

1. This stamp was won at auction on ebay in February 2008, with its authenticity unknown. The description read: “USA 220 cap on right 2 error?”

2. In March 2008, this stamp was taken to the A.S.D.A.’s (American Stamp Dealers Association) Mega Postage Stamp Show, at New York’s Madison Square Garden, for appraisal.

3. The A.S.D.A. referred the appraisal to member and renowned stamp expert, Richard A. Champagne. Being very familiar with the 220 Cap on Right 2 legend, but of course never having seen one, he was very skeptical at first. However, after careful examination, to his surprise, Mr. Champagne found this stamp to be genuine. He advised taking the stamp immediately to the Philatelic Foundation in New York (chartered in 1945 by the University of the State of New York) to be certified.

4. Following up on the advise of Mr. Champagne, this stamp was brought to the Manhattan office of the Philatelic Foundation to be certified. It was examined by a team of P.F. experts before being deemed genuine for certification. In its 65 year history, the P.F. has had only two other submissions for certification of a 220 cap on right 2, but these submissions were deemed Not Genuine. Therefore, making this stamp the very first and only known certified, used cap on right 2, in existence today.
· Included in this auction is one of the non cap on right submissions (see images).
· For more information on the Philatelic Foundation, visit their website.

5. Upon receipt of the certification, a copy of the certificate and an image of the stamp were sent to Scott Editor, Jim Kloetzel. It was requested that, upon review of the certificate and stamp image, Scott consider reassigning its old catalog number 220b to this, at that time, 117-year-old mystery stamp. The US 220b cap on right was listed in the Scott catalog between 1935 and 1939 (see images 1939 pg.11). It was also mentioned in an early 1900’s Lester G. Brookman catalog, which was disputed by other experts, but never disproved. According to Jim Kloetzel, the U.S. 220b was removed from the catalog in 1940 possibly due to difference of expert opinion. We may never know, as there are no actual records of this. Intrigued by the new discovery, and after some in depth research, Mr. Kloetzel is left with some mind-boggling questions that, to him, need answering in order to consider the reinstatement of this stamp.

6. They are as follows:
A) Mint or used, where are the rest of the 220 cap on right stamps?
B) Where are the plate proofs?
C) How many were printed?
D) How many were put into circulation?

7. After 18 months of extensive investigative research, what we do know is this:
A) This stamp was once listed by Scott as a U.S. #220b cap on right from 1935-1939 (images courtesy of Ellen Peachy of The American Philatelic Research Library). The 220b was the most valuable of the three cap varieties and was also mentioned in an early 1900’s Lester G. Brookman catalog. These two facts have been confirmed by Jim Kloetzel and several other experts (see Special Thanks). These documentations are the only solid evidence of its existence thus far.
B) The 1890 US 220 was criticized for its color and was reissued between 1891-92. These reissues produced the very popular “cap” varieties, known as the US 220a (cap on left 2), and the US 220c (cap on both 2s).
C) There is still much controversy over exactly how these unique characteristics were caused. For over 100 years experts believe that: (1) Plate wear caused the caps; (2) The ink was not wiped completely off the plates. In either case a failure of ink transfer could occur.
D) Now that a 220b has surfaced, an effort has been made to debunk these theories and a question has been raised as to a third possibility. There is too much of a coincidence where a cap on the left, right, and both 2s, were caused by plate wear or poor plate cleaning. Could it, in fact, be intentional? Most experts agree that this is possible and reasonable. They also agree that we may never know.
E) Records of plate numbers from 1892 exist for the 220a (#’s 235-36, 246-47-48), and the 220c (#’s 245-46).
F) The only existing proof sheet for the 220a, cap on left, plate #235, which I have personally viewed with Jim O’Donnell, is owned by the National Postal Museum and is kept in its library (Images provided by Jim O’Donnell, Museum Specialist, N.P.M.).
G) The whereabouts of the 220, 220b and 220c, proof sheets are unknown at this time.
H) The Bureau of Engraving and Printing reports that: (1) Their records only contain die numbers and not plate numbers; (2) They have no proof sheets; (3) Any existing proof sheets were either destroyed, or are now owned by the National Postal Museum in Washington DC.
I) This stamp was affixed to a letter, canceled, and sent through the United States Postal system furthering its authenticity.
J) This stamp is NOT an error, freak, or an anomaly. It is certified as a “genuine cap on right” by the Philatelic Foundation, which ultimately has the final say.
K) Most importantly, this is the very first and only known U.S. #220 certified cap on right in the world.

8. SPECIAL THANKS - To those who have personally helped with resources and research: Renowned Stamp Expert - Richard A. Champagne, The Philatelic Foundation, N.Y. - David Petruzelli, Lewis Kaufman, Scott Editor - Jim Kloetzel, The A.S.D.A. - Jim Lee, President, The National Postal Museum, Washington, DC - Cheryl Ganz, Chief Curator of Philately, Jim O’Donnell, Museum Specialist, The Bureau Of Engraving & Printing, Washington, DC, - Hallie Brooker, Historian, The American Philatelic Society - Mercer Bristow, The American Philatelic Research Library - Gini Horn, Librarian, Ellen Peachy, Library Services Coordinator, Durland Editor - Walace Cleland, Mystic Stamp Company - Carole Sherwood, Don Sundman, President.

9. Should any of these stamps surface in the future, they WILL NOT be deemed genuine until certified by the Philatelic Foundation in New York.

10. This stamp is being kept in a safe deposit box in a New York bank.

11. Upon receipt of payment:
· This stamp will be delivered worldwide, fully insured, shipped in a fire resistant security box (Inclusive).

12. You will receive both original P.F. certificates for the certified cap on right, and the certified non cap (anomaly/ink flaw). The certificates are issued in the current owner’s name, therefore, the new owner will have to contact the Philatelic Foundation in New York for certificate transfer information.

13. We have received dozens of emails and images from people around the world who thought they might have a U.S. #220b. To date, this is still the very first and only known, P.F. certified, U.S. #220b cap on right in the world.

14. The sale of this auction is FINAL.

15. You must be 18 years of age or older to participate in this auction.

16. For any further information please call 1-516-209-6449.
Thank you and good luck.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:28:01 am 
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$25K for this? Only in the USA. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:31:29 am 
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Yes Glen. :oops:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:42:28 am 
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And, how does that differ from some little squiggle on a 'Roo?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:43:29 am 
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makielb wrote:

And, how does that differ from some little squiggle on a 'Roo?


About $24,000 is how it differs. :idea:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:55:35 am 
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Well, I've seen the same with plate flaws from other countries, so it's just the Australian market that's lower. That's not meant as an insulting comment, just a matter of $-value. I wish I had gotten into 'Roos seriously 20 years ago. And, just to be clear - I never cared much for the Franklin-Washington stamps much - Too much like the GV issue. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:02:22 am 
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There is no Australian stamp of any type, from any era that gets $25K due to a fly speck variety or plate flaw.

Or anything remotely close. A few K is absolute tops for such flaws. Ditto for every other country I can think of.

From my reading of it there is no guarantee this will be re-listed in Scott. It "might" be, but 25K is a huge price for a "might be".

Would it have got 25K in Seigals or a real auction? Would it have even got 10% of that? Of course not, which is why philatelic_rocker has trotted it out forever on ebay I'd guess!

Lets see from feedback who the alleged buyer is - there is no guarantee whatever this was a real sale as alleged buyer has low feedback.

Might just be hoping for some free publicity in Linns etc. :!:

Seller philatelic_rocker has not sold anything for 4 months.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=philatelic_rocker&ftab=AllFeedback

His feedback history shows his usual fare are junky Dollar Shop things like -

USA 2007 Star Wars Yoda DOE FDC I Was There, Were You?

Sold Out '08 Sinatra Sheet In USPS Shipper

He sold the Cap on LEFT 2 for 99c.

US #220a Cap On Left 2 (#230645642167)

The old Scott says that was 10% the value of the right 2 version. Making that $9.99!

My BS meter is off the dial on this alleged sale.

makielb wrote:
Well, I've seen the same with plate flaws from other countries, so it's just the Australian market that's lower.


I'll be fascinated to read your list of fly speck errors that get $25 apart from this from ANYWHERE that you have "seen".


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:16:03 am 
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Not quite sure it's a "fly speck" more of a plate flaw. And I know lots of plate flaws that bring big $$$$. In Palestine there are plate flaws that bring 5-figures. I'll bet there are 100 US collectors for every one who collects Palestine. It will ultimately be market driven.

Regarding it's being sold on ebay - can't say much for that. Other than the buying and selling fees there sure are a lot less than with the typical auction house. I've created most of my collection through auction houses and those fees can be cumbersome.

As to it's being re-listed by Scott - who knows? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. It will be an interesting trail to follow over the next few years. There's a board member here (name fails me) who is an editor or similar for Scott. Perhaps he should weigh in on this.

Actually, this whole discussion reminds me in small part of the plate 77 issue with Great Britain. I know, an all together different issue. But they have similar implications - is something valid and will it be verified.

Oh well, back to tending the fire...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:21:37 am 
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makielb wrote:

In Palestine there are plate flaws that bring 5-figures.


$10,000 and up - as posted above, let's see them.

I stick by my point that FIVE figures is never going to occur in the real world, for something not in Scott or SG.

ebay has no relationship to the real world.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:33:23 am 
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Quote:
ebay has no relationship to the real world


Agree entirely!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:45:30 am 
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Image

SCOTT 1936 Exhibition edition - :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:51:39 am 
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John, yes as I posted above, the Cap on Left 2 was only rated about 10 times more than the Right 2 when listed.

Our seller philatelic_rocker sold one himself for 99c recently. Hence the right unit flaw is a $9.99 'rarity' on that measure. :lol: :lol:

I agree it must be better than that $9.99, but NOT $25,000 to any sane buyer. A few $100 is more like it.

To be clear as the 2c red is a penny stamp retail to this day, my comment re wanting to see a fly speck getting 5 figures relates to 5 figures ABOVE the base price of the normal stamps.

A 1913 ÂŁ2 Roo mint is cat $A7,000. All the many plate flaws on these are cat at $7500 to $8000 .. . i.e. lets say around 10% MORE than a normal stamp. Or, $500 to $1000 extra.

The 1d Red Kangaroo of the same series has a ton of plate flaws, but as it too is a near worthless stamp used, and the rarest of flaws run a few $100. Not a few $1000, and certainly not $25,000.

makielb contents this is wrong and I await to see all his Palestine errors here soon, that are worth more than $10,000 aobve the base stamp value. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00:14 am 
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Image

EDIT:
Sorry. No idea why photobucket is cutting off the important part.

Image

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Last edited by benjclark on Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:04:47 am 
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As noted by Glen Stephens, the seller has no feedback for at least 6 months, and other sales were in the 50c to $2 range. The buyer has a feedback of only 11. I'll be surprised if this sale is completed for $25k. Not sure we'll ever find out. Would an eventual Scott listing at $25,000 be convincing?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 07:43:38 am 
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No feedback for the seller philatelic_rocker on the 25K item yet, after nearly two weeks, and he has nothing else for sale at present.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 05:38:56 am 
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GlenStephens wrote:
$25K for this? Only in the USA. :roll:

Image

I certainly concur with that.

If Washington's head were missing, that could be worth $25,000, but a tiny beanie on a small numeral? I'd pay full catalogue...1936 catalogue. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 07:15:10 am 
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philatelic_rocker has relisted this stamp for USD 50,000, after selling it for USD 25,000 a while back. Again, it is his only item for sale.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NYPF-Certifi ... 35b9cf2e5e

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 07:19:32 am 
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A $25,000 "sale" would generate a hefty fee to eBay and PayPal. Yikes!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:05:55 am 
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FWIW - my take on this stamp with all it's smoke and mirrors:

1. The stamp is genuinely missing some of the ink on top of the 2 in the right value tablet and the certification reflects that it hasn't been doctored.

2. For there not to be another single example of this "flaw" extant is unusual to say the least. It is possible that it was noticed after only a few sheets were printed, those other sheets being either destroyed or the affected stamps were just not noticed and either thrown away or otherwise lost.

3. You would expect that if it was a genuine plate flaw and was noticed immediately (therefore the lack of other examples) then it would have been corrected by a retouch, bump up, etc.

That would surely have been seen by collectors of these on later printings from that plate given that it was a listed "flaw". As most would know that was a common way to rectify plate flaws on stamps worldwide.

4. To me it's most likely a simple transient flaw from a small piece of paper or similar that adhered to the plate during the printing process for a very short time, nothing more, nothing less. A quite common occurence but in this case the fact that the left value tablet had a similar flaw on the top of the 2 just got people looking for one on the right value tablet as well. Hey presto an example turns up to ratify that belief.

Comments :?:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 15:49:22 pm 
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The excerpt from that early Scott Catalog also shows a variety (#220c) with caps "on both twos." Wonder what it looks like?

Wonder if the cap on its left 2 matches the variety of cap on left 2 ONLY, and similarly for the right 2?

One could take a "cap on both twos," fill in its left 2, and presto, a "cap on right 2" only. :lol: :lol:

If a stamp legitimately shows caps on both 2's, you would not expect it to be a transient flaw.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 16:37:44 pm 
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Wonder what it looks like?


Probably just like this Doug.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1892-SCOTTs-220 ... 2ebb9b2c4c


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 18:04:46 pm 
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My guess, looking at the cap on both twos is that this might have been the first stamp which could have been repaired then had the repair on the left side crack again. It was repaired again then cracked off again on the other side. If the original repair of both sides was substandard this would seem a logical sequence.

This would have only been one stamp on the whole plate and perhaps after the first repair let go, they were looking out for it and caught it after only one batch of stamps was printed.
They may have decided to release the stamp sheets already printed as it was such a slight error and then repaired the plate properly.

This would account for the small number of stamps issued and as it was a common cheap stamp most would have been eventually thrown away. Now only one is known.

Having said that, the new re-listing gives it a decidedly "Billingsgate" flavour.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 18:09:01 pm 
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Here is a page from my collection, with half a dozen left cap & doubles.
No Right only, but I am searching my coloring box for a good match.

Image

LEFT

Image

BOTH

Image

Happy to scan all of them, if it will be of interest.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 18:15:00 pm 
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Steve, the arricators are a bit high on the last image as they are way above the top of the 2's, had me confused for a second :D

Interesting examples that's for sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 18:43:04 pm 
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Looks like you need to find 50,000 to finish the page :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 19:02:58 pm 
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fletches1 wrote:
Here is a page from my collection
Image
Out of idle curiosity, has anyone ever seen a pair or a strip of these - with the caps?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 16:38:54 pm 
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Wonderful thread for that tiny number of non-philatelists who think "we" are nutters.

I'm not much of a fan generally of Scott catalogues, but in 1936 $15 mint, $5 used for this philatelic non-event I reckon is remarkably prophetic for 2012.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 09:30:57 am 
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This, in my opinion, seems to be an example of philately gone wild - an attempt to manufacture value where none exists.

Genuine plate flaws - OK - maybe a reasonable premium - but the huge price being discussed here is an aberration and demeans the hobby. Would I need a variety like this to feel that I have completed my collection?

No! If I had one, I might point it out in an exhibit but only as a matter of interest and perhaps to show that I pay more attention to the stamps I acquire than the average guy, therefore an ego trip!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 20:00:25 pm 
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This is something that I am still trying to come to grips with as a newcomer (or new re-entrant) to stamp collecting. The whole idea of - 'hey, this has something wrong with it, so it is worth more' still confuses me sometimes.
I can see that a consistent flaw which might occur once in every 100 stamps printed might be worth a premium due to rarity, but the price differentials for errors still astounds me.
I know I still have a lot to learn - and I am trying - but in most other fields of collecting you would seek the most perfect example you could find.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 22:35:15 pm 
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When I first saw this thread I rushed out and checked my copies of this stamp ( I have a few) and sure enough amongst them were a cap on left and a cap on both twos (but no cap on right only.... :cry: :cry:)

The flaw on the right 2 only illustrated in the first post is totally different in shape to the flaw on the right 2 of the 'flaw on both twos' stamp that I have. If this was in some way a constant flaw wouldn't the shape be the same or similar?

Or is this two simplistic?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 22:56:21 pm 
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Global Administrator wrote:
makielb wrote:

In Palestine there are plate flaws that bring 5-figures.


$10,000 and up - as posted above, let's see them.

I stick by my point that FIVE figures is never going to occur in the real world, for something not in Scott or SG.

ebay has no relationship to the real world.

It's rare but it has happened. A US revenue stamp, the 1875 Half Pound Manufactured Tobacco 1875 with an inverted center brought $22,000 in the Cunliffe sale of Inverts of the World at Spink Shreve; of course there have been group lots of non Scott or SG that have hit 5 figures as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 01:16:58 am 
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Interesting. My collecting interest is primarily Germany. A while back I bought a number of full and part sheets of the 'Rosette' or 'Basket lid' 1923 inflation issues. Every one of the sheets has a fortune in plate flaws, yet they remain exactly as they were when I bought them. A lot of the flaws are constant, so all I have to do is pluck them from their position on the sheet. I haven't done so though.

Why not? The answer is simple, as Glen says, 'time is money', not so much for me as for him, but, it is not worth my while extracting the stamps, scanning and listing them. There were tens of millions printed, and the resale price is nowhere near catalogue.

This stamp appears to be unique, until another comes along of course. On that basis I would expect that it would command quite a premium over the 'ordinary' print, not into the tens of thousands of dollars though.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 01:38:24 am 
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Machaggis52 wrote:
Interesting. My collecting interest is primarily Germany. A while back I bought a number of full and part sheets of the 'Rosette' or 'Basket lid' 1923 inflation issues. Every one of the sheets has a fortune in plate flaws, yet they remain exactly as they were when I bought them. A lot of the flaws are constant, so all I have to do is pluck them from their position on the sheet. I haven't done so though.

Why not? The answer is simple, as Glen says, 'time is money', not so much for me as for him, but, it is not worth my while extracting the stamps, scanning and listing them. There were tens of millions printed, and the resale price is nowhere near catalogue.

This stamp appears to be unique, until another comes along of course. On that basis I would expect that it would command quite a premium over the 'ordinary' print, not into the tens of thousands of dollars though.

Classic US is a hugely popular area, and there are any number of people who love the idea of having something both famous and unique, even if it is only a relatively minor plate variety. And there are always collectors around for whom $25,000 is simply not that much money. Alas, I am not one of them (although that stamp would not particularly interest me even if I was).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 17:47:52 pm 
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fromdownunder wrote:
philatelic_rocker has relisted this stamp for USD 50,000, after selling it for USD 25,000 a while back. Again, it is his only item for sale.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NYPF-Certifi ... 35b9cf2e5e

Norm


The saga continues. After failing to sell this at USD 50,000, it was relisted twice at USD 30,000 and now has been relisted today at the bargain price of USD 29,995.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NYPF-Certifi ... 35bcd468ec

Norm

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 18:49:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 05:39:39 am 
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In their "Special thanks" they name every heavy hitter in US Stamps. Very interesting piece. I'm not sure about the over the top price but I'm sure if any 1st time plate flaw / printing flaw was found on any 100 year old Stamp the price would be pretty steep.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 09:39:57 am 
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He has been trying to sell it on eBay, at various prices, for nearly 5 months. I would have thought that if he had confidence in the value, and it was worth big money, then a leading Auction House would be the way to go.

As I said on another thread, 5 figures stamps very rarely, if ever, sell on eBay.

Norm

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 09:59:33 am 
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fromdownunder wrote:
He has been trying to sell it on eBay, at various prices, for nearly 5 months. I would have thought that if he had confidence in the value, and it was worth big money, then a leading Auction House would be the way to go.

As I said on another thread, 5 figures stamps very rarely, if ever, sell on eBay.

Norm

This one won't. Of course the 15% he would have to give up in an auction house plus the tax bill from Uncle Sam for the value difference between what he paid (probably nearly nothing) and what it sells for might be playing a part too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 13:35:45 pm 
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Yes, 5 figure Stamps don't sell often, but they do sell. Even 6 figure stamps sell on ebay.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=24632&p=1600319&hilit=71RE#p1600319

Now this cap on right 2 is nowhere near the find as the Franklin 7R1E and my Scott's catalogs (2009) don't even have a listing for the cap over right 2. But with the PF certificate, I bet it would fetch over 1K.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 14:17:57 pm 
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Over a year has passed, and the saga continues...

www.ebay.com.au/itm/NYPF-Certifies-The- ... 35c4482d57

Now USD 25,000.

I wonder if philatelic_rocker will ever give up on this thing.

Norm

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 01:18:47 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 01:41:41 am 
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fromdownunder wrote:

I wonder if philatelic_rocker will ever give up on this thing.

Norm


I think he needs to re-name himself as -

Off_My_Rocker

:lol: :lol:


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