Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Hello forum,

Please find few minutes and read my story, I am very interested in your opinion.

Two years ago I have started collect first issues of every country. There were stamps for 10c, for 1USD, some for 5USD.

It was everything easy to get, but when I found missing place with the name Reunion I was shocked with price in Scott ($32,000) and price of only one for sale at eBay - US $36K.

So there was only one way how to fill space - replica or forgery of stamp, because it was not possible to buy this stamp with my pay (cca. 400EUR/month). It should take more than 22 years of saving for only one stamp.

So, I looked for replica of first Reunion stamp and I found it! I was happy when mail arrived, but when I put it to my album it looked like a square peg in a round hole. Ugly scan copy on classic print paper.

So I decide to create my own replica of Reunion, I googled some info about creating stamp forgeries and I found information about one very interesting man and his story - story of François Fournier and his "Art of stamps".

I was so interested that i have stared buy and study his works. First page was of course - Reunion. When I compared his Reunion with Reunion what I got it was like Mercedes vs. Trabby.

I also buy books about old forgers and Ragatz´s forgery of Fournier´s album of forgeries.

After studying i started create my own "Art of stamps" and after few weeks all "high-price" gaps were filled. Theese forgeries/replicas looks so good that I feel like a really rich collector

Then I got a IDEA - i feel that my replicas are very good, why I am not selling them like Fournier? There must be thousands of collectors like me who can´t buy some high-price stamps and now they are buying junks for filling gaps in their albums.

So I started with selling of them (every my stamp is marked on reverse and every have a secret mark on obverse, description and title are clear so I believe that everyone see what he/she is buying).

Even there are four stamp stores which contact me because purchase of my stamps for their clients, so now I am thinking about my next step - catalogue/journal of my replicas, something like Le Fac-Simile.

Am I bad man? I found many posts at philatelic forums about forgers and forgeries or "printers" that it is crime like stealing and that it is damaging philately.

But my clients are happy that gaps in their collections are filled with quality material and after 100 years there will be collectors who will have my work in their collections, so I am happy too

There are also other people making and selling replicas.

I don't think they are breaking any laws as long as they clearly label their items (like, by stamping or printing REPLICA on the back), and listing or advertising them as replicas.

The problem arises when someone tries to sell them as real later on.

Trying to sell them as real IS dishonest.

Typing hint ... you need to put a blank line between your paragraphs ... otherwise too hard to read. Stampboards doesn't have automatic paragraph formatting.

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A man might as well marry ... if he finds a good wife he will be happy ... if not, he will become a philosopher.
Collecting Greater New Guinea & Macropods (Kangaroos & Wallabies).

Fournier made a living from supplying copies of stamps to collectors who couldn't get the real thing.

I don't see anything wrong in this being done now - because it is even more expensive to buy some of these stamps. As long as the reproductions are properly marked it doesn't seem bad. Of course some of the early forgeries are obvious because they have an impossible postmark. It might be appropriate for your reproductions also to have an 'impossible' postmark that would prevent anybody removing the marking on the reverse or adding them to covers to make very expensive postal history.

But show us some of your products as well!

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Hello Mark,
I am not interested in ANY stamp forgeries.
IMHO you are not helping out any serious collector.

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greetings,
danny.

On the other hand I know somebody whose principle collection is forgeries, fakes and reprints of the world and he has albums full of them from Fournier and Spiro to Wada and the person who forged GB 1966 World Cup Winners FDCs*. Each to his own.

(* The mistake on some of these was using a convinging-looking FDI handstamp from a town that never had a genuine one )

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

No matter how well the original intention is justified or motivated, sooner or later someone will misrepresent the forgery (replica is a name that sounds better) as genuine.

We see countless examples on E-Bay, where the seller will try to say "As Is" or "as per scan" and then put in a poor resolution scan or Photo, to lure the unsuspecting buyer.

This generally happens where the item being sold is not the £30000 stamp at £5, but more like the £50 stamp beong sold for £14.5- looks like a bargain, and is too little to attract police attention.

If you are missing an item in your collection and want a picture in the space, Put in a Black and White enlarged or reduced photocopy.

Buying modern forgeries ( by whatever name) is a waste of money!

YES--- If you sell forgeries and fakes you are BAD.

This is illegal as most countries have laws against this. Just because you do not know the applicable law in your own country or the seller's country does not make it a legal, acceptable act.

For example : the American Law:

Section 502 of the US Law is quite clear. Many other countries also have similar laws on the statute books.

18USC 502 reads as follows:


Sec. 502. Postage and revenue stamps of foreign governments
Whoever forges, or counterfeits, or knowingly utters or uses any forged or counterfeit postage stamp or revenue stamp of any foreign government, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

What you are doing is against the law. it is illegal.

A similar analogy is child trafficking from poor countries to the rich childless couples in other countries. It is legal and it is wrong. No matter how the middlemen might want to justify it.

Forgers and fraudsters are both different sides of the same coin. They both seek to make money by doing illegal acts like copying masterpieces, valuable items etc to produce worthless replicas.

You are not doing any service to philately. Most of the forgeries are later attempted to be sold as the real Mccoy to unsuspecting bunnies.Being one step removed from the outright fraud does not absolve you of the guilt in any way.

So yes--you are BAD.

Also, the holders of the genuine articles will then have to work doubly hard to prove the genuineness of their items. Also, the increase in value associated with a very limited number of copies (and consequential demand) tends to take a hit. Why?? So that the forger can make a quick buck....

No Sir,..what you are doing is illegal and bad.

Kindly do a serious rethink...

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http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

If he writes COPY, FORGERY, etc. on the back plus a 'secret mark' on the front, those who have the genuine stamp would not confuse it with Shareman's reproductions. On eBay you see quite a few items which are copies, and some (although not all) sell. For example:

GB 1840 1d black x 3 (mint, used red mx, used black mx)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-Penny-Blacks-FORGERIES-/260955691957

GB High value £1-£5 forgeries
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-High-Value-Set-FORGERIES-/260951593756

GB 1887-1900 Jubilee Issue forgeries
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-Set-14-FORGERIES-/260954570415

Personally, I would not spend money on philatelic forgeries (especially those crude ones in the eBay links above). On the other hand, I like postal forgeries (genuinely postally/fiscally used). For example:

GB 1s green Stock Exchange forgery (which can cost more than the genuine stamp )
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Green-Stock-Exchange-Forgery-Normal-Comparison-/250864669378

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Thank you for replies from both camps.

For norvic:
"Impossible postmark" is very good idea, thank you, i will apply it.
Will add images of products tommorow.

For birder:
I am not expert in US law, but what i know, our law is connected with making replicas of stamps which are in use, not with stamps which was in use before 30 to 140 years, e.g. from dead countries or colonies which doesn´t exist now.

Problem of selling my forgeries as real ones by some fools (if someone remove marking on reverse or use stamp on cover) i want resolve by free online or pdf catalogue of my forgeries where people can find secret marks on obverse and in easy way recognize my work.

That last point would be very useful.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

I see this a self promotion to try to sell some of the makers rubbish.

There have been hundreds of various makers of computer replicas and most of them look OK in scans but poor when actually viewed.

In my opinion all makers of Computer Replicas should be tarred and feathered and not given a chance to advertise their wares on any Stamp Chats.

David B.

David, let's see what they look like?

I suspect that you are correct that they are computer-produced replicas (I don't think he has said one way or another but it will be easiest way these days).

What do you think of Fournier et al?

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

There are MILLIONS & MILLIONS of good quality marketable GENUINE stamps. Other than the famous old forgeries like Fournier, why would you want to sell forgeries?

Selling fakes of any kind annoys the heck out of serious collectors and does real damage to the hobby.

I strongly recommend donating such forgeries to the American Philatelic Society or the AU equivalent for their reference collection. That takes them out of circulation permanently and makes them available for research.

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Stamps on eBay: USA & worldwide. Lots of Dr. Who, Star Trek & Star Wars comics, too. Do Advanced search for Seller ddaannv and Keyword the country you collect (or leave Keyword blank).

norvic,

I see nothing wrong with Classical forgeries especially those made by using plates but abhor fakes using modern technology.

I don't believe the story about dealers contacting him for his self made wares,

Stamp related Chats should not be used for self promotion of self made forgeries whether they be by computer or any other method,

David B.

Why not hunt down spacefillers for those missing gaps!
These are the originals but damaged that they little
value but available at reasonable prices

Alternatively seek out fiscally used stamps. These are stamps
cancelled by pen(ink) for officially uses but are not classed as
being through the mail and cannot be classed as used. These
stamps can be found cheaply even though as used stamps
they would have had a high value

and if you are after the rare Reunion, there are classical forgeries on Ebay regularly and these generally sell for only a few dollars,

David B.

For David Benson:
Yes, i understand that it looks like ads, but it is not, i will not provide link to my auctions or eshop here or in Sell category. If someone want buy it, she or he will find my shop easily at internet.

Yes, 80% of them are computer prints, but HQ prints on brand paper with real gum, other are classic forgeries from homemade plates like Reunion or mystery New Haven 8XU1.

For ddaann:
I have same reasons as Master Fournier.
Yes, i plan to donate examples of my work to APS and other authorities.

[Mod Comment

links removed

Norm]

these are not spacefillers, they are FORGERIES.

Spacefillers do not need to replicate the types of original gum, forgeries do, no gum is just as good for filling in a space,

In my opinion, this thread should be locked as it should not be used as a place to advertise self made forgeries,

David B.

David, I have removed the links, but have left the thread open.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Shareman,

re your comment,

""

TO MAKE MONEY,

David B.

Shareman,

Those forgeries are very good (ie. dangerous to collectors). You should write COPY as you said AND put impossible cancels. They are dangerous and unsuspecting and inexperienced new collectors can easily mistake them for real ones. Do they have watermarks?

PS. How do you do the perforations?

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Yes, make money and make something which will be here next hundred years.

Same reasons like forgers of art of old painters or makeing forgeries of old books or old letters, signatures, baseball cards, etc. Souvenir stores which sell United States Constitution replica or replicas of old coins, etc.
People want it, i only gap a space in the market.

For HalfpennyYellow:
I made photos of unmarked ones, before sale i mark them and sell ONLY marked. No, there are no ones with watermarked paper, but i am thinking about watermark COPY as next anti-fraud mark for my works.
I made own machine for perforating.

Shareman,

All that people like you are going to create is lasting damage to the hobby of philately with your illegal acts of outright fraud and deception.

1. When you say that you will limit yourself to creating fake stamps only of countries that are "dead" and exist no more.... who are you trying to kid..? yourself..?

2. When you say that only creating fakes of currently valid postage stamps is a crime as per the laws of your country (which I am certain you have not even bothered to check..), you are very wrong. The civilised world has virtually similar kind of laws in place to check deceitful behaviour. Yourcountry will not be an exception.

3. Purveyors of fake medicine cannot escape liability by claiming to have printed disclaimers on the label.

4. Your ideas of "gumming" your fake stamps, "perforating machines" etc just go to indicate the level of planning and detail that has gone into this criminal enterprise.

Kindly reconsider ....

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http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

I fall into the camp of thinking selling forgeries is a bad idea. I think fake stamps need to be removed from the market and they should be destroyed whenever they are identified.

The hobby is in a precarious enough state that we don't need the presence of fakes worrying us. As it is, whenever I am bidding on an early issue, I am wondering if what I am buying is genuine and whether or not I should be looking for a certificate of authenticity.

Dealers charge a huge premium for the certificates. I am accumulating early Newfoundland which was a prime stamping ground (pardon the pun) for forgers.

griedp,

the other problem is that the NFLD are no watermark which makes it much more difficult to identify.

There has been a plethora of modern forgers who have listed their wares on Ebay and tend to list the no watermark stamps as " Proofs " and sometimes get away with it. Some of them have pleaded the same sad story " we are doing it to help collectors fill their empty spaces instead of saying " we are doing so that collectors will fill my empty pockets ".

Hopefully all these crooks ( and I mean it) will get the message and refrain from selling on Ebay and will have to try to sell their wares online using a web page and advertising their self made productions on Stamp Chats using lies (such as the the author of this thread) even making up stories such as " dealers are after my material for resale ". Could be but they neglect to say the " dealers are just middle men who try to con the unsuspecting public.

Delcampe has done the right thing, Ebay will hopefully follow suit as they are doing for coins,

David B.

I am strongly against forgeries of any kind.

I did buy forged things thinking that they were the real stuff, including the experts' signature.

But I thank the thread opener for his bravery putting this up here.

For one, I am afraid I'll have to live with them any way.

I'll keep them, the forgeries, as a reminder of my naivety and foolishness.

A friend of mine bought this on ebay:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8711&p=375935&hilit=cohinchina#p375935

Sometimes forgeries are put on sale by "prestigious" houses. Behr Philatelie is an example. They are selling faked Vietnam, Annam - Tonkin on their webpage, ebay, delcampe, etc...

What to do with such sellers? Without the item, you can hardly prove that they ARE fakes!

Here is one example of a forgery on this Board from eBay where the process went completely pear shaped for both the buyer and the seller.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7046

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

A few years ago most shop front dealers in Melbourne ( I was one of them) got caught by a Gentleman from Hongkong who was selling Sheets of MUH Aust Post International Stamp.set of 4 Coastlines,
One really could not tell the difference from the real thing,
the giveaway was the lack of Phosophor on the face of the stamp,

I did not buy much as I only wanted USED ones,but bought a sheet of each.as I had a few e,bay sales going out.so I used them on those.
One Melbourne Dealer bought $3000.00 or so and got burned badly.

So just on that basis, I say you are wrong in producing Fakes, Forgeries, etc,as there is enough problems out there now,its not the actuall item that gets sold NOW but what may happen to it in the future that bothers me,

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

That is for sure.

No-one will be using this board as a vehicle to sell laser printed stamp fakes - not as long as I have ownership of it.

Thanks Norm for removing the links, which I gather did just what this person claimed he was 'not' doing.

And he better not do again.

Admin

Thanks Sheriff and Norm,
for your intervenience and putting this bad case of Stockholm syndrome to a halt.

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greetings,
danny.

Dear Admin, I provide only links to imagehosting http://tinypic.com/ , because norvic want see my work, i NEVER! post link where i sell them, never!

I think any person on this site who buys a replica (and I'm being polite here) stamp is a complete fool. Wait and one day it may turn up. Any person who makes forgeries is immoral. Any maker of forgeries should have their membership revoked from this site.
Glyn

Glen,

I don't think all of the fakes were printed using a laser, some appear to have been printed using sophisticated, very expensive printing machines which I doubt is self owned by the forger and he must have access to the equipment,

David B.

As i said before, i am not creating cheap junk. I am creating art - like repainting of Rembrandt, not like homemade print of Rembrandt on A4 business paper. If you will buy repaint you feel that you have art at home, to have homemade print on the wall is little funny.

And as i said before, i prepare catalogue of my work, it will be part of library of collectors as Gibbons or Scott or Michel. Everyone can compare stamps, and will find he/she see original or my work. There are secret marks if someone remove marking on reverse. Removing secret marks is not possible without demaging of stamp.

In short time i prepare now security mark - own studio watermarked paper. + Impossible cancels, now we are using Fournier´s cancels.

If someone removes the wording on the back, it is very difficult to check if it is a forgery unless the watermark is checked. As for the secret mark, there are no obvious marks I could see on the reproductions shown in your links before the mods deleted them. If you produce a catalogue of your works, what guarantee do you have that who buys the forgery as a real one has the catalogue or even knows about it? If you do a catalogue, make it freely available on the internet so that whoever is looking for info on a forgery will find it. If you just print a few copies and distribute those, in a couple of years nobody will know about the catalogue and your forgeries with COPY removed from the back will not be distinguishable from genuine copies (other than the wmk.) because no one will know about the secret mark.

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

What a great word - I love the English language!

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Looking for revenues and unusual stamps?
Weekly auctions on eBay with over 300 curious new lots every week ... Website: http://www.ibredguy.co.uk/main.php

Marking on reverse can be removed only by demaging gum and making of thins.

Secret marks are secret until you compare it with genuine stamps. - broken frames, dots, etc.

Yes, catalogue will be free printable pdf + CD version(not free) + classic paperback version(not free).

I think that watermarked paper (not watermark of genuine ones, but our own studio logo or "FORGERY"/"COPY"/"FASCIMILE") can solve problems with identification. Remove watermark is not possible in no way.

If someone puts a hinge on where COPY was, it will be more difficult to see the damage. Moreover one could remove the gum completely and forge a cancel or simply regum the stamp (as many supposedly unmounted mint pre-KGVI Commonwealth stamps are).

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Absolute and utter bullsh^t

You are CREATING NOTHING.

You are copying, forging or faking art.

BIG difference.

If you want to do this, fine, but have the guts to admit it. PLEASE don't try to sweeten the pill or salve your conscience with weasel-words.

Well, he has guts - he started a whole thread about his forging 'business'!

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

What vitriol - where's the deception, he came here and asked for opinions. At no time did he try to sell them here. If he hadn't put the pictures that I asked for then nobody would have had any idea how good they actually are. (And now Norm has taken the picture links away the discussion on quality, perforations and gum is meaningless because nobody can see them!)


Too general a statement, as I suspect you are only referring to modern forgeries of older stamps. Buying modern (postal) forgeries of modern stamps is an excellent thing to do, because they add to modern postal history. These are such:



All the people who started getting crazed over the possibility of them later being sold as genuine seem to have overlooked these two messages from the OP, emphasis added by me.

Secret marks, just like Wada (I think it was him, some Japanese); impossible postmarks (just like....)

So what was good for the 19th century is not so good for the 21st century?

In the 19th century many people would not have appreciated that Fournier & Wada produced forgeries or copies because they didn't have the originals (the very reason they wanted the space-filling copies). Now some of those are more valuable than the originals.

In the 21st century communication is so much easier and it would not be difficult to publicise Shareman's business activities all around the world in a matter of minutes (oh, wait a minute, that's already been done. All we are lacking is the pictures. In fact, all he did was ask a question; by answering it we have added the publicity though without a link to where the items can actually be bought.

If only the same vitriol that is applied to these easily spotted copies were applied to the various bogus productions that in the 1990s came out of Lithuania, Britain, New York etc, in the name of countries from the former Soviet Union, African republics, Afghanistan, the Falkland Islands etc (the "illegals') maybe there would be fewer of them on the market than there are now. Where were you all then?


The links that were deleted went only to Tiny-pic - http://i41.tinypic.com/--------.jpg for example. I don't know how to get from that picture to the website where the items are being sold. But I've captured this image from that link to show those who come into the discussion late, the apparent quality of the items being produced. I trust this won't offend anybody but without it, as I say, the discussion became hot air with no evidence.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

I copied all four images into my Photobucket account (since images are preferred to links I was going to post the pics earlier but I didn't since the mods deleted them). Here they are:









(mods feel free to delete these if they are inappropriate)

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Personally, I do not like philatelic forgeries but I have nothing against who does them if it is specified that they are so. I only think that since Shareman's forgeries are indeed very good, others will try to remove what is on the back (Shareman said he will put COPY on the back of the ones in the images above before he sells them) and sell them as originals. As the marks on the front are not at all obvious, only the watermark (sometimes overlooked by inexperienced collectors) stands between the real ones and the fakes.

So I guess in this case I am neutral .

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Wishing people don't make reproductions of stamps will not change the fact that this has gone on for almost as long as the hobby exists and will continue to do so. Even if the original poster decides not to proceed, a hundred more will step in and do exactly that.

At least this chap appears to be making efforts to not defraud anyone by misrepresenting these. Of course others may well do so in future - just another thing to watch out for in the big list of traps for stamp collectors.

To reiterate, hoping that what you consider 'bad practice' for the hobby magically stops happening won't actually cause that to come about. Harm reduction is the only practical way forward: Educate people and keep vigilant.

As to the items themselves, which I can now comment on given that we can now see them, they look quite convincing on first glance. To see how 'tricky' they are, you'd need to see them side by side with the real thing and to do that, you'd have to buy them. If these fields are something you collect, it would be worth doing that if the price is right, so as to have a reference copy to avoid getting sold a dud at a later date.

Personally, I'd like a block of the KE VII £1 stamps, so that I can frame it and stick it on the wall, along with a suitably high price sticker under it. That way, if someone does decide to break in and rob me, they'll make of with that prize item and leave the books of less impressive stuff behind hopefully. Classic honey pot tactic

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Norbert

[/quote]
Too general a statement, as I suspect you are only referring to modern forgeries of older stamps. Buying modern (postal) forgeries of modern stamps is an excellent thing to do, because they add to modern postal history. These are such:


My apologies for making too general a statement. I agree that where a specialist collection such as yours, Machin postal forgeries produced to evade postal charges would be of great interest.
In my collection are some of the 1903 Transvaal Edward £1 and £5 forgeries (Faux on reverse) , which I bought to keep as reference copies for comparison with the originals. The forger (possibly Fournier)bleached out the original colours of a genuine stamp from the same issue in order to have the correct watermark and perforations on which to print his "artwork".The cancellation he used though, was of an office in Ceylon! Such examples are actually scarcer than the original, and invariably correctly described in auction catalogues, but where not accurately described, some collectors have been duped and paid good money, believing them to be genuine.

We can only hope that not too many collectors buy these "artworks" with gum on the reverse at some future date, believing an incorrect description. In such cases they will be the victims of Fraud, whether that was the intention of the producer or not.

librashares,

just a comment


re your comment



actually what happened was that the forger used a Ceylon stamp and even though he bleached the design and printed a new one, the Ceylon cancel remained,

David B.

Then why don't you get a full sheet?

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

I'd love to if I knew the price and had a link to wherever these are being sold - not suggesting anyone post up a link though, otherwise extreme moderator dissatisfaction is likely to become apparent in short order. Perhaps I should get purple ones, instead of green - they are much rarer and therefore even more valuable.

Out of interest, what price are these various reproductions being sold at? Presumably a flat rate, rather than some percentage of CV

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Norbert