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Another problematic shade is G24½ - orange-red.

It is a rare shade, and finding examples is made more difficult because it tends to look like some much more common shades.

A lot of the time collectors will wrongly assign one of the very common G10 (carmine-red) or G13 (deep red) shades as a G24½ (orange-red).




On the left shade G10, in the middle shade G24½, on the right shade G13 and their corresponding UV reactions


All examples in the G24½ group should be relatively deep shades and have a definite orange component to the colour, and are of course on smooth paper.

The 'orangeness' is especially obvious when an example is placed between a G10 and a G13 and viewed in daylight. Though the scan and reproduction on your computer screen won't give a reliable comparison, it is more obvious in the flesh.

The UV reaction is very dull and tends to be deep dull purple with more or less brown, and no hint of any brightness. That is another reason G10's and G13's are sometimes wrongly assigned to the G24½ group, the UV reactions of the three shade groups are quite similar.

In your hunt for an orange-red, it is best to look for examples with dates from October 1917 to about February-March 1918. The period of use was very narrow, so this can help somewhat.


Scott

The next shade groups that I would like to discuss are G23½ - brownish rose and G25 - pale terra cotta.


Top left G21, top right G22, bottom left G23½, bottom right G25 and their corresponding UV reactions


The colour of the G25 shade group has also been described as brick, but this tends to be confusing as there are hundreds of colours of bricks. The name terra cotta is somewhat more accurate. It is a pale brownish orange with no hint of any blueness.

This is a rare shade but is actually very easy to spot. It is one of the more pale 1d red shades and the colour is quite distinctive.

It is usually found with cancels ranging from November 1917 to early 1918 and was obviously an experiment by the printers to conserve ink as much as possible. However, it was deemed too pale for widespread distribution and the majority of this shade was sent to be perforated OS. So most copies are found perf. OS, and these tend to have cancels later in 1918.

The UV reaction is a very dull purple, however, the daylight appearance should be enough to confirm this shade.

A somewhat similar shade is the uncommon colour group brownish rose - G23½. These are darker than the terra cotta shades and not as orange, the hue is nudged more towards the rose end of the spectrum.

To qualify as a G23½ the stamp should be definitely brown when compared to the very common G21 rose-red shade group. The deep dull purple UV reaction is also similar to a lot of the G21 reactions. The G21 shade group does have a range of sub-shades and UV reactions, however, none have the daylight brownish appearance of the G23½ group.

The G23½ shade occurs from about March 1917 to early 1918. Darker members of this group are put into the G24 shade group - brown-red. These are the G24 stamps with a dull purple UV reaction, rather than the bright red reaction. The G24 shade was discussed in more detail earlier in the thread.


Scott

Hi Scott,
May I make a suggestion that you use dated copies nearer to the date that the different shades first appeared.
You should be able to find copies of G21 dated Jan-Feb 1917 and G22 Mar-Apr. 1917.
Your G23½ being undated could have been issued at any time, and the same applies to your G25.

Best regards David

David,

Thanks for your input. Can you please outline why it is important to use examples used closer to the dates they first appeared?

In all of my scans I try to use stamps that have been certified as the correct shade. That way I make 100% sure that I am not giving people misleading information. So I have to use the ones I have available even if they have ugly cancels

I was hoping that this thread wouldn't just be a monologue from me I would certainly welcome a lot more critical input from Stampboarders who are vastly more knowledgeable in the field than me


Scott

Hi Scott,
Your G21 is dated Nov 17, there were several different shades that appeared around this period, I thought that an earlier dated copy would show that they are not from any of these groups.

You stated:
"In all of my scans I try to use stamps that have been certified as the correct shade. That way I make 100% sure that I am not giving people misleading information. So I have to use the ones I have available even if they have ugly cancels"

I would ask who certified the stamps, remember some certifiers are better than others and I have no problem with ugly dated cancels for UV work.

I'm not sure if this is of any help to you but it's the way I do it:

Lets start with G10 if you get 100 dated stamps Aug-Oct. 1914 you will find the UV reaction is a Brownish purple red, some will have a touch more purple or brown etc. you can then arrange them on a large matt black board.

I start with an average UV stamp in the middle and have the lighter UV ones at the top, darker ones at the bottom redder ones to the right and the bluer ones to the left (this may take some rearranging as you may find the first stamp ends up in a different position) it's like a tree, the trunk is the main shade and with enough stamps the branches lead into the trunk, remember this shading is done under the UV lamp.
If the above is done for all the different shades you can then take an undated stamp and have a chance of identifying the shade group.

I always try to use dated copies that were on piece.

For soaking the stamps off paper I have a plastic tray with some thin foam on it and on top of that a piece of old blotting paper (made before they added all this white brighter) the stamps are then laid on top of this, this is to ensure that no water gets on the face of the stamps. I soak 6-10 stamps at a time and work the paper off as soon as I can trying to ensure that the stamp has the least amount of moisture on it.

I remember back in the 70's I went around to a friend of mine who happened to be soaking some 1d reds off the paper, there were well over a 1000 of them in his sink and he just kept putting his hand in and stirring them around, needless to say they were useless for shading as the aniline stamps had run into a lot of the others and the backs of the stamps were pink.

When I can work out how to make the shutter speed longer on my camera and get rid of this damm plastic boot on my foot and the crutches I hope to post some items from my shade collection.

Best regards David

David,

Thanks for your post. That was the kind of valuable input I was looking for.

For the rarer examples that I have been illustrating, I only use stamps that have been certified as the correct shade by Drury or Dunkerley.

Though for a lot of the common shades I don't have certified examples, so they are just my identification. Do you think my G21 rose from above is wrongly IDed?

Scott

Hi Scott,

Looking at the scans on the screen of the daylight shade and UV reaction I think your G21, 22, 25 are OK, but I would prefer to see the stamps in front of me.

If you think of the Salmon Eosins scans that I posted on the board, on my screen the colour looked nothing like a Salmon Eosin (due to the photo processing/my scanner) yet other members scans are very close to the shade, just like viewing the stamp in front of you.

Obtaining stamps on piece is getting harder as time goes by and when they come up you may have to pay (as I have in the past) a bit more for them, but having obtained them you will know their history ie. they have not been over soaked in removing them from the piece, the colours will not have run etc. these will then give you a good basis for your shade collection.

If you use dated copies and set them out by month and year you will notice a change in the UV reaction and this will be a different shade ie. G10 then G11/12 if you continue doing this for the rest of the years you will be able to identify all the shades, but you will do a lot of back checking to ensure that the stamp you are working on is not a late usage of a previous shade.

Remember you will find some odd ones, I have found copies of G1 & G10 that are very aniline and this is not generally associated with this group.

I hope that this is of some help.

Best regards David

The G23½ and G25 shades from above have both been verified by Michael Drury, so can be absolutely trusted

Like I said earlier, I will only use certified stamps in my posts where I am pointing out aspects of a particular shade. Occasionally I will use cheaper shades to illustrate comparisons and differences, and in those cases most of the time I don't have a certified example, but hopefully enough experience not to stuff it up


Scott

December 1916 saw the first appearance of shades on so-called rough or un-surfaced paper.

Some of the earlier printings do occur on what is usually referred to as semi-surfaced paper, however, now we enter the realm of truly rough paper. Rough paper gives an overall blotchy look to the design, smooth paper on the other hand gives an impression that is quite even.

The first half of 1917 the only shades on rough paper are G60 (deep scarlet aniline) and G61 (deep red aniline).

These are quite pleasing shades of red and are both very similar. The deep scarlet shade is somewhat more yellow when placed next to a deep red example. These are relatively common shades.

The aniline in the name refers to the nature of the colourant. The colour is slightly water soluble and tends to bleed into the paper, even mint examples show some orange showing through on the reverse. Certain examples from these colour groups can be quite deep and intense, and most of the extreme examples I have seen are perforated OS.

They also show a strong orange glow when viewed at long wavelength UV. The deeper the colour the stronger the glow as well.



Top row G60 (normal and intense examples), bottom row G61 (normal and intense examples) and their corresponding UV reactions


Another feature of these two shades is that they are frequently found with the watermark displaced vertically.


View of the watermark of a G60 example

The slight bleed through of colour can also been seen in the above scan.

Other shades can be found with displaced watermarks and not all examples of the G60 & G61 shade groups show this feature, so it isn't truly diagnostic.


Scott

Arguably the most troublesome shades in all of the 1d reds are the rough paper G70½ and G71 groups. These encompass G70½ Damson & Lilac-Rose and G71 Plum. They are also quite rare shades, so sometimes it takes a while before finding one.

The names certainly don't help! Before I started collecting penny red shades I had no idea what a damson was. Turns out it is a type of plum with a darker skin. It is very popular in Eastern Europe and goes into the potent plum brandy called Slivovitz.


Ripe Damson Plums


These three shades are the bluest of all the 1d red shades and are quite similar to each other. The lilac-rose shade is the bluest of the three and also paler than the other two. The damson and plum shades are slightly redder in comparison, the plum being the deepest and reddest of the three shades, damson in between lilac-rose & plum.




Top row: G68 rosine & G74 carmine-rose. Bottom row: G70½ damson, lilac-rose & G71 plum.
Top picture normal scan, bottom picture is their UV reactions.


All three shades are definitely more blue than shade group G68 - rosine. Probably the closest shade is the very common carmine-rose shade G74. However, even the G71 plum shade has a definite hint of blue in comparison.

The UV reactions aren't very striking, all being red to dull red with no hint of brightness or fluorescence.

They first appear in early 1918, though dated examples offer little help as they can be found used throughout 1918 and beyond.

These are definitely shades where it helps to have a couple of certified examples, and all of the stamps I have used in the above pictures come with Drury certificates. It is relatively easy to assign a stamp as belonging to group G70½ or G71, however, it can be a bit trickier assigning it to either plum, damson or lilac-rose without a reference example.


Scott

I'm not sure if anyone is still reading this thread, but I'll keep posting until someone tells me to shut up

The next shade group I would like to discuss is G65 - orange-red on rough paper.

I'll go out on a limb here and say this is probably the most difficult shade for collectors to get a handle on. In the book The Redhead by Colin Beech published in 1998 the shade is still put in the category of being dubious.

The latest edition of the ACSC (published 2007 - so I guess not that up-to-date) does list this shade, catalogue # 72F and gives its UV reaction as purple-red. The catalogue also says that the UV reaction is not unlike the reaction of the smooth paper G24½ orange-red. This is no help at all because both certified examples that I own have a relatively bright orange reaction which is very different to the dull purple G24½ reaction.

In my experience, this shade group is closely related to the rough paper group G62 - carmine aniline. The strong aniline quality of the ink of G65 examples is the same as that of the G62's - i.e. used examples show some (sometimes a lot of) bleed of the colour into the paper, both back and front. The periods of use also closely match, G62 shades appear heavily through the latter half of 1917 and the G65 examples I have seen mostly have September & October 1917 dates.

The G65 shade group separates itself from the very common G62 by having a definite orange component to the daylight appearance of its colour.


Top row - G62, bottom row - two examples of G65


On the left the UV reaction of a G62, the other two show the UV reaction of the G65s


As can be seen from the photo of the UV reaction, the emission under long wavelength UV illumination is quite bright and tends to be orange or orange-red.

The G65 shade group is very rare, much rarer than the $200 catalogue value in the ACSC would suggest. Try finding one and you'll find out, most dealers could sell you a dozen salmon eosins before they find you one orange-red on rough paper


Scott

Starling

Please keep going, although I'm quite intimidated by your last 2 posts.

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mobbor

I don't mean to come across sounding scary

The last two posts do, however, feature two of the major bugbears of penny red collecting. The damson/plum/lilac-rose shades are always a bit hard to get your head around until the colours are seen in the flesh. The orange-red on rough paper is difficult because it has been poorly described in the past.


Scott

One thing I should have pointed out with the shade group G65 (orange-red on rough paper) is that because it has been so misunderstood over the years, there are still a few lurking out there. Most of the examples that exist haven't been culled from bulk lots.

So they are very rare, but they can be found.


Scott

I saw the following stamp as part of a mixed lot on Ebay a few months ago.



I listened to my own advice from the first page of this thread about the very rare G78 shade. My hypothesis was that virtually all of them should have the Invest in the 7th War Loan slogan cancel and if the date was visible, an early to mid-October 1918 date. The cancel was apparently only in use during September & October 1918.

Here is the page on these cancels from the book Commonwealth of Australia Slogan Cancels 1918-1960 by James Lessig.



So I put my bid on the lot, no one else bid and I won it. When I saw it in the flesh I was certain I was on a winner, the shade of the G78 orange-brown is pretty distinctive. Got the stamp certified and to my pure delight it was a genuine G78. So I got a G78 for less than a dollar

Even though the KGV Heads have been around for close to a century there are still finds out there. Arm yourself with a bit of knowledge and you'll find them (unless I do first )


Scott

Over the next couple of posts I will talk about the various shades on the Large Watermark paper.




There was a small printing on large watermark paper around the beginning of 1917 while J.B. Cooke was still the printer and the three shade groups that arise from this run are commonly referred to as the Cooke Printings. The later more prolific shade groups that appear during 1920 were printed by T.S. Harrison and unsurprisingly are called the Harrison Printings.

All three shade groups, G101 (carmine-pink), G102 (rose-red) and G103 (deep red) are rare with the last two being particularly so. The figure of 14 million stamps produced by Cooke during this time seems a vast over-estimate, the number more likely to be 1/100th or 1/1000th of this figure.

The G101 shade group - carmine-pink - is the most easy to recognise of all the large watermark printings. It is a pleasant pale to dark pink and closely resembles the single watermark, smooth paper shades G28 & G29. This shade group may well have been printed with exactly the same ink as the G28s & G29s because the UV reaction is also quite similar. The UV reaction is a fluorescent orange to red-orange and is also the only large watermark shade to give this reaction.



Top row - G28 & G29; middle row - G101 (pale & dark); bottom row - G102 & G103. The right picture is the corresponding long wavelength UV reactions.


By contrast the G102 & G103 shades have a very dull UV reaction [note: the only example of G103 I own has absorbed some fluorescent blue contaminant at sometime in its life, but the daylight shade is unaffected]. They are best identified by their daylight appearance which has none of the blue tint that the later Harrison printings mostly possess. These shades are also much redder than the G101 shade, and of course don't have the bright UV reaction. These are extremely rare shades and numbers that exist may only number in the dozens.


Scott

The usage of the Cooke printings is restricted mostly to early 1918, and the Harrisons to 1920 and beyond. So dated postmarks can be a useful way to narrow down whether you've struck gold and found a Cooke or not.

Slogan cancels aren't completely useless in this respect as well. As detailed in the ACSC and The Redhead and elsewhere, early 1918 saw use of the slogan cancel which ends in ELIGIBLES ENLIST.

Here is a picture of most of these types that were in use for 1918, this is a scan from the book Commonwealth of Australia Slogan Cancels 1918-1960 by James Lessig.





Contrast this cancel with the similarly worded post-war slogan cancel that uses the phrase HELP REPATRIATION, again a scan from the book Commonwealth of Australia Slogan Cancels 1918-1960 by James Lessig.





Though I must add a couple of slight caveats to the above. There are a small number of stamps from the Cooke printing (only G101 spotted at this stage) that saw very late usage into late 1919 and so can have the HELP REPATRIATION slogan.

Likewise, I recently purchased a stamp that was identified as a G103 (without certificate) with a clear ELIGIBLES ENLIST slogan cancel, but upon inspection and certification was identified as a cheap Harrison shade. The UV reaction was red and the colour had a distinct tint of blue. This was obviously just a case of an inadvertent late use of the WWI slogan cancel. I had to return the stamp to the dealer, so cannot provide a scan as I no longer own it.

So I guess the moral to this story is that the cancel can certainly help you narrow down what shade you have by fixing a possible date (this applies across all of the 1d reds, not just the large multiple watermarks), but don't discount what your eyes and knowledge tell you about the daylight shade and UV reaction.


Scott

I also do requests if anyone would like me focus on any shade group in particular.


Scott

Starling, now I've got a new globe I've re-visited this wonderful thread to prepare to re-visit my couple of 1000 dated reds. I've got a couple of questions:-

1. It took me a long time to realise this, when I put say 10 stamps under the lamp & move them around they actually change colour- very disconcerting! It may be just because the lamp sags a bit- it is top heavy- so part of it is closer to the surface. So a stamp on the left where it is higher looks like G13, but if I move it too the right, it's G10. Does that make sense?

2. G11 & G12. I'm probably just happy labelling as one or the other. In theory it should be easy to separate them in daylight, but I can't do it. Beech quotes 2 opposing views about the uv reaction. What's your opinion?

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mobbor

Mobbor,

The purple glow from your globe may be tinting the UV reaction, hence making the relatively brown reaction of a G10 look like a purple to brownish purple reaction typical of a G13. Maybe lift your lamp a bit higher? I get the impression that the output from those globes is quite intense and the light source should maybe be about 60cm above the stamp - someone with the Eastick-style lamp should be able to comment better.

As for the G11 & G12 shades, identify them from their bright yellow glow, but separate them using their daylight appearance only. There is a very wide variation in the intensity of the UV reaction, particularly as it is very sensitive to light fading. Now that they're 100 years old, the UV brightness will vary a lot from specimen to specimen. However, the daylight shade is much more robust and much more reliable. Put the paler, yellower ones in the G12 pile and the darker ones in the G11 pile. Where the cut-off between the two lies is really up to personal taste.


Scott

Keep it up, Scott. Wondering if you could flesh out the daylight and UV variations of rosine, deep rosine, pink and rose-pink, in rough paper ...many thanks

Hi guys, Any input regarding possible shade on this one? It has an army PO mark dated MR 18 and Melbourne MY 18, any info would be much appreciated as my knowledge in the 1D red area is very limited

starling

Great thread! The KGV sidefaces have always been daunting to me and as a result are the main gaps in my pre-decimal Australia collection (my Kangaroos are almost complete for each watermark). Since rebuilding my collection a number of years ago I ended up with a number of reference books for various KGV face values and shades (still need to pick up Redhead though). So I've been putting all mine into stockbooks for safe keeping until I get around to tackling what I want to put in my main collection, what ones to add to my varieties collection and if I want to tackle a shading collection.

To be honest its just daunting to know where to start with the KGVs. The 1d reds seem to have the largest following, but does this make it easier to start with or should I start with another denomination(s) where shades are more easily defined. I was thinking it might also be an easier exercise to start with something else that would help me to set myself and my workspace up better.

Also the problem of shading, communicating it to others and self verifying colours is something I haven't really seen addressed. Perhaps its not possible. There are colour charts which can be purchased cheaply, but I haven't yet seen any charts/lists which detail the recognised shades (for any particular issue) against exact matches for particular stamps (eg. "this" is a match for G11 1d). Are there any cheap/common issues where the colour is an exact match for a specific shading no matter what the toning of the paper? Hope that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks again for the thread. It's giving me more to ponder on (and more reason to keep throwing my KGVs into stockbooks and ignore them altogether .

It is particularly difficult trying to determine a shade from a scan. The 1d red you have is a rough paper example and is probably one of three possible shades: G72 - dull red, G73 - carmine-red or G74 - carmine-rose. All three of which are quite common.

Scott

If you buy The Redhead and work through the step-by-step instructions you'll certainly start to get a feel of the 1d reds. Also, starting in the December edition of the Australian Stamp News and continuing monthly from then on I'll be going through all of the 1d red shades chronologically from G1 to the end. So get your subscription up-to-date and follow my column each month

If you want a less scary range of shades, try the 4d orange KGV heads. The shades of that value have relatively well defined periods of usage and not the hundreds of nuances that the 1d reds feature. The 2d orange is also a good one to start with.

The trouble with colour charts is that they usually only have a handful of red shades and they can't cover the big range that the 1d reds span. The trouble with finding other issues that have a shade that matches a 1d shade is that that stamp probably exists in a range of shades as well


Scott

Apologies to the posters of the three previous questions (evkat, vee gee & pelman), I haven't been getting e-mails telling me there has been a response on this thread, so I only looked in recently

To evkat, I'll certainly go through those shades in detail as they are particularly difficult ones to get a handle on.


Scott

I will certainly be following that, looking forward to it!

Hi.
Newbie here trying to get the hang of this site and been looking at this thread (think thread means the main subject line of the topic?).
Been very helpful as I recently acquired a large box of 52,000 Australian KGV Heads ranging from Single W/mark to CofA and all values from estate of guy who collected everything he could get his hands on for 35+years.

It had within it 10,500 Single W/mark 1d Red Smooth papers and 2,500 Rough papers, plus 250+ "OS"'s, which is taking me ages to sort through looking for flaws first and then moving onto checking UV's soon. (Think I have found one Eosin type to date in the meantime. Glows extremely brightly under the UV lamp and completely different from others in the same daylight shade range)

Have just used info in this thread to identify the War slogan postmark types on some of the stamps i have. Found a group of the ELIGIBLES ENLIST types on smooth papers lot so that was great and two WAR LOAN types. Took down some hints/details of some other stamps for use later when I come to refining the UV's I initially sort out.

I have the ACSC cat but will soon get the Monk cat.

Thanks for the info and I'll refer to more when I can. Have some questions later on I'll post about compartment lines as have many and some with the marks in all four corners (e.g have two lines then the other two corners have the bracket-like shapes and ACSC says 4 sides are rare - are these classified as 4 sides or does it mean that there has to be 4 actual lines?)

(Hopefully I'm doing this right!)
Joe (taxmanfoy)

Joe,

Very happy you found this thread useful. It has been a bit neglected by me as I am writing this all as a monthly column for Stamp News Australasia http://www.stampnews.com.au/joomla/index.php

Also doing a run through of plate errors for Australian Stamps Professional http://australianstampspro.com/

Sounds like you have the KGV bug and you have a good assortment to get you started.

A much more active thread for asking questions about KGV errors and anything else you'd like help on is here:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2236&start=10200

Another neglected thread of mine is specifically about Eosins:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33296

There is more than a life-time of Easters' reading in all of those


Scott

Thanks Scott for the info and reply.

I'll check in on the other threads over the coming months, especially during winter as able to spend more time on stamps then. Will need to read up on how to paste photos so I can attach some on a post in those other areas I'll check on later.

Tonight checking some more for UV's reactions on examples that look similar to salmon to pink/rose and carmine-pink range of shades plus a lot with dates 1917 to 1918 period.

Cheers
Joe.

Hi Starling

I'm hoping you can give me some help with G30 & 31. You gave typical UV reactions earlier. The trouble is when you look at Beech, he has 4 different groups of reactions to each & many occur in both.- for example the very distinctive dull violet-red. I know the dates are different but.........

And he quotes H.J. Carter "Indescribable (G30), a thousand sub-shades..."

Some of the daylight shades appear to be identical too.

Any clues?

_________________
mobbor

Hi Starling

I'll ask an easier (I hope) question related to G30 & 31.

BW & Beech agree that G30 1st appeared in Feb. 1918. But they disagree in relation to G31. BW says G31 1st appeared in July 1918: Beech says March.

Knowing which was correct would be a big help.

While I'm at it there are also anomalies re the dates of the rough papers- any comments?

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mobbor

Hi Dr Scott.

I note you are now issuing certificates for KGV heads.

Wonder if you could elaborate ?

Many thanks.

Mobbor,

I saw your posts, sorry for ignoring them, but you have a knack for asking difficult questions I'll give you an answer over the weekend, my next Stamp News column will cover G30 & G31 amongst others, so it is a timely question.

Dr. Evan,

Yes, a few people asked me to give opinions on a few of their stamps, so I obliged. E-mail me if you need to discuss something you need an opinion on.


Scott

Hi Starling

Thanks for your response. I knew they were hard questions & I know you are very busy so I wasn't worried.

I have over 5000 dated copies & I ploughed ahead for the 3rd & sometimes 4th time getting near the end. I think I know the answer to the dates questions & I'll offer them tomorrow a.m. for you to consider.

_________________
mobbor

Mobbor,

The dates question is much easier. I only follow what The Redhead says, I've found far too many inaccuracies in the ACSC as regards periods of use.


Scott

Starling: re the dates

With G31 the starting dates are variously March 18 (Beech), July (BW) very late in 18 (White) & 19 (Blogg). With so much discrepancy among the experts, what hope have the rest of us got?

Beech refers to a sub-set of stamps between March & July which some people consider to be G30, others G31. I'm not sure, but it seems in my collection there are very few that don't fit G30.

With the rough papers there is no question in my mind that they start in March.
I'm not sure that my stamps make up a representative sample but it interesting that there are very few rough papers in Dec-Feb, & suddenly in March, through to July, they are more common than smooth papers.

And if nothing else, the dull uv reactions for G74, really can't be confused with anything else.

_________________
mobbor

Now separating G30 & G31.

The best thing about using the uv is it certainly helps separate stamps that are neither, but otherwise...........

In the end what I've done this time round is just separate them into those that are predominantly rose & red in daylight. These are supposed to be the dominant shades. And some are predominantly red; but what's worrying is that except in the title, the word red never appears in Beech's description of G31.

I'll be interested in what you have to say about this.

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mobbor

Scott
What a wonderful thread you have presented !! I have both books but the colours or uv presentation is not evident . For the beginner it is interesting to see the UV reactions and the extra tips you have offered Looking forward to your future threads.

bear0001

Hi Starling

I finished re-sorting my 5396 dated 1d reds for the umpteenth time today & have to make a painful admission.

I have done the daylight shades under artificial light which is mostly o.k. I really haven't had the situation where I could look at them under indirect sunlight til recently (& sunlight has been a scarce commodity here for months).

I'm now of the opinion that Beech's view of G31 is correct- none of them are remotely primarily red.

I think just as it important to look at UV in the right conditions, it is just as important to check daylight shades in the correct conditions.

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mobbor

DEAR SCOTT;i was abel to read your thread on K.G.V.thank you for the great explanations.--I live in WADALBA-N.S.W.-and a group of our club members-- [wyong stamp club]-would like to ask you ,if you would visit us sometimes and talk to us --about this stamp--we stll have many questions/ or send any infomation to our stamp club if that is o.k.- many thanks.[member -1033-dutchy]

_________________
Shading is the best fun for the 5th King...!

This has been an attempt to illustrate the differences in shade that can occur depending on the light (as discussed above).



According to me & I could well be wrong, the stamp on the left is G30; that on the right G31. The top 2 in indirect sunlight: the bottom 2 in artificial light.

On my scanner they look pretty much as on the photo. The top 2 look very much like they look to the naked eye: the bottom 2 are yellower. Nevertheless the difference is quite marked, & that's why I said none of my stamps from that era look predominantly red in indirect sunlight.

The difference between the left & right stamps are a little more marked in reality & I'd be happy with descriptions of carmine-rose & carmine.

Now I realise this might be all a waste of time- how do they look on your monitor?

Finally, in view of a forthcoming event, I think it's worth pointing out that probably the worst place to examine different shades, is in a large exhibition hall.

_________________
mobbor

Hi mobbor,

What type of globe/bulb do you use in your lamp. Are you coming down to Australia 2013.

Best regards David

Kaygeevee

I'd need to find the box it came in to describe the globe properly, but obviously it's too yellow. Up to a point it doesn't matter because although it doesn't show the true colour, at least it's consistent. However, I will be spending more time in my outdoor covered patio!

Unfortunately, I can't make it to Melbourne. I hope the light's better there than it was at Randwick racecourse, when they had an exhibition there.

_________________
mobbor

Hi mobbor,

You could try a "Day light " globe/bulb they have a blue surface and are a lot better when checking your KGV shades and only cost a few $'s from most large shops that sell lights.

Sorry you can not make it to Melbourne.

Best regards David

This is a wonderful thread. I am now more deeply 'into' shades and you deserve a big medal for this primer. No doubt matters will be complicated soon with my UV'ing. Wife suspicious here as I switch off lights regularly in my 'office'. How do you take the UV pics, simply a camera held at an angle?

John

starling
found this in the AWM archives might be usefull ;



bear0001
If you build it, they will come !

hi Scott, sorry I know your busy, i posted this on another thread but didn't get any answers !
Purchased this recently described as ACSC 72B/G61 Deep Red, Aniline Rough Paper and saw Michael Eastick selling a similar item but described as a Smooth paper ! I have looked at your classification on smooth & rough . I believe mine is a smooth paper !



bear0001

If you build it , they will come !

bear0001,

Thanks for the table about the various WAR LOANS, I didn't have any details about any of them, so it is useful historical information.

No, the stamp you've pictured above is on rough paper. The ink used for the G60 & G61 printings was very aniline and so bled extensively through the paper.

That means the finished product does look smoother than pretty much all of the other rough paper shades. If you look at your scan of the reverse of the stamp, you can see there are fine dots (they almost look like diamond shapes) all through the paper, that is the 'roughness' of the paper meaning that the weave is less tight than on smooth paper.

If you look at a smooth paper stamp next to a rough paper stamp with a strong light behind them, you should be able to see the difference.

The example that Michael Eastick is selling was discovered by Simon Dunkerley and there are only a handful.


Scott

Scott
Thank you very much !

bear0001

If you build it , they will come !