Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

I have traded stamps on ebay since 1999 and have over 1200 positive feedbacks. One negative feedback came as revenge for outing a seller in UK who offered as genuine a Kingsford Smith Vignette as MUH for a few pound stg (no watermark).

The whole personality of eBay has changed.

In the early days, sellers needed to know both their stamps and a bit about computers. Studious people offered serious stamps and more often than not they sold for realistic prices.

In the latter 3 years or so, the personality of eBay has shifted towards what I call "Comic Book Stamps". I suggest that buyers as a group are younger, greener and poorer. Also, the fee structure of eBay and PayPal after taken over by eBay has lifted to oppressive levels.

I sell rather than buy, because lately there are too few sellers whose reputation is known and good. There are many more cowboys in proportion. Simon Dunkerley has expressed this elsewhere in these pages more eloquently that I can. I note that Les Molnar has joined this Bulletin Board. He is a true expert, especially in stamps of Victoria.

These days, I know that I can list a stamp item worth $1000 at $1000 and have zero chance of sale. If I list it at $150 I will get some nibbles but not much bidding up. That way lies financial ruin. So, I am in the middle of evaluating other auction methods. One of these is Kevin Morgan's
http://www.bidferret.com/

I notice elswhere on Glen's Bulletin some examples of fake stamps. Please be a bit gentle here, as genuine mistakes can happen. For example, I recently listed a BW 12 3d olive roo as a Die II because it had no frame break visible, but it was a Die I as KJB stamps pointed out (thank you Brian) that the Die II has a smaller ball at the top of the 3 in Die II and IIB. We are all still learning, sometimes by mistakes.

There is a significant eBay crossroads approaching at the moment. We cannot continue on the present path, but it is hard to envisage a better path being accepted. I can only suggest that the combined strength of the various global and National Stamp Associations pool ideas and approach eBay. Stamps are a market with some peculiarities, like the inability to show all aspects of quality like gum condition.

I do not take the word of a seller about grading or quality of stamps on offer when I am buying, unless through experience I have found the seller to be reliable. When I sell, I try to use large, clear images and to mention any faults that I can find.

However, I am getting increasing emails from buyers, mostly new ones, who gleefully describe their methods of trolling for lowest prices, of policies to not pay more than 30% of Scott cat prices, of how clever they are at spotting bargains (as if quality did not exist as a factor), of confessions that they are bottom feeders in the food chain.

I find these emails as offensive as the frequent ones where potential buyers contact me post-auction with low bids, sometimes with lectures about how I am ignorant about how to price stamps.

Matters like these do not create an exciting day and I have too many ending in downers because most buyers do not comprehend the complexities. Maybe I will exercise my titanium knee and apply to act on "Dancing with the Stars", because star systems seem to be the bithplace of some buyers. I wish they would go home.

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Anything can be done; but nothing can be done for the first time. (Sir Humphrey in "Yes Minister").

I just wonder if the problem with Ebay and stamps, Is that they are a money making business with no real passion for stamps, sell anything that turns a buck. Investors in the company are more important than the sellers, especially in stamps.

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Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

Absolutely. Just take a look at their press releases to the market and online video presentations to shareholders etc

Shame really cause ebay is a great concept. Nowdays it survives by default - there simply isn't any real competition.

It's a huge system that they continually crow about as being the biggest and best but it's full of gliches and bugs that most casual users don't see.

It's driven by greed and shareholder value like many other large corporations thesedays.

Many of their policies are simply morally wrong or just plain illogical. But if that makes money then for ebay it's ok.

Fraud, selling fake items, theft of buyers money, shill bidding, etc all go almost unchecked.

Enough of my ramblings.

Geoff: Thanks for the complimentary remarks. I am in total agreement with your sentiments - as an Ebayer since 1998 I've seen a massive change in the Ebay community from the exciting early days to the corporate dumbing down that is now promoted. In the early days, Ebay actually encouraged cross-communication between participants - that's how Geoff and I initially started trading emails. Ebay was an on-line stamp club for many of us, and quality was a matter of protecting one's reputation within the group.

One area I'd like to comment on specifically is the Ebay feedback system. I no longer participate in the Ebay feedback system which ihas become a farce. Most sellers now will not add feedback until and unless you first provide positive feedback to them - what a joke - the buyers obligations end with prompt payment, and feedback should be given by sellers at that point. If a seller subsequently sends a stamp with a bullet hole in it and refuses to refund, a negative comment about the sellers ethics can result in an equal negative against the buyer - the feedback system should be different for buyers and sellers - sellers' feedback should only indicate if the buyer paid on a timely basis - period!

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Les Molnar (stampsofvictoria.com)

"Most sellers now will not add feedback until and unless you first provide positive feedback to them - what a joke - the buyers obligations end with prompt payment, and feedback should be given by sellers at that point". - Les Molnar

That's good of you to say that, but how do you then protect yourself from the buyer who decides to leave you negative or neutral feedback, irespective of your conduct towards them.

As a buyer when I get an item from a seller I leave positive feedback as long as I have not had a strained communication, in that case I leave no feedback at all.

As a seller I am constantly wary of buyers that might have an unjustifiable gripe against you or something in your description, or having a bad day and they take it out on you, etc.

For me to leave negative feedback would take a lot of thought it is not an automatic reflex. I resort to using the ebay system to try and get redress, limited as ebay is.

I would like to see a new form of feedback, which is performance only based. I may try to implement it on Bidferret.

Sellers can grade a buyer 1 - 10 on prompt payment
Buyers can grade a seller 1 - 10 on prompt delivery and quality of goods.

Sellers should post at point of receipt, so that buyers know how long it has taken their payment to arrive.

Buyers should post at time of receipt, unless some discussion with the seller needs to be entered into.

For negative feedback a Minus points system could be implemented if deemed necessary, and some guidelines for using this should be introduced.

This will also save a lot of time in typing comments.

No room then for churlish comments, and the quicker you pay, or the better your service the more points you score.

Any comments for and against?

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FREE sample copy of Stamp News Australasia available on request to all Stampboards members!
Also don't forget to checkout our websites at http://www.kevinmorgan.com.au

There seem to be four classes of payers:

1) immediate via PayPal
2) quick via cash or check by mail but with immediate notification of payment method
3) delayed a few days but by PayPal when they get around to it
4) cash or check by mail with no notification, and frequently very slow

But then we have the sellers:

1) immediate shipment upon receipt of payment
2) ships once a week regardless when payment arrives
3) waits ten days for the cash PayPal payment to clear
4) ships when they feel like it

There may be more levels, but these covers most of my expereiences.

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Bill Lehr
JOBI Philatelic Services
specializing in US postal stationery
http://jobi.bizhosting.com

Kevin,



Can I suggest separate ratings for prompt delivery, and quality of goods? They really bear no relationship to each other.




Trouble is, "should" doesn't work. We know ebay sellers SHOULD post feedback when payment is received - fat chance, as has been discussed.

If both sides of the feedback were kept out of site until each party had posted, it would avoid retaliatory feedback. It would also make people more inclined to post feedback, because they would normally have an expectation of receiving positive feedback themselves, so to receive it they must first post feedback.

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John

Looking for used pre-decimal OS/NSW and G/NSW state perfins, and NWPI KGV overprints.

The first time I received negative feedback it really made me angry. I was the buyer and the seller gave me a glowing comment but then pushed the negative feedback button twice and gave me a less than perfect 99.99% which will forever remain as long as I still use my current sign in. Ebay wash their hands and tell you where to go.

Feedback should be based on:

Buyer
1. How accurate the description was?
2. How quickly it was mailed (not when it was received as this depends on the carrier and post method used)?
(You can get this info from the postmark)
3. If it was in good condition and packed well!
4. If the mailing costs were reasonable! (Although if this is in the description and if someone is not happy then bid off).

The colour of my hair or if I'm a nice person or whether the sun is shining is irrelevant.
Seller
1. How quickly the item was paid for depending on the method? (Some leeway can be given for mailed payment).

That's it.

As you can see the buyer has more to gripe about, and the seller can never win.

And that is why as a seller on ebay I don't give feedback until the buyer has received the item and is happy with it.
.

As a seller I send the item immediately I receive payment. I send it the way it was paid (mailing preference) for with a copy of the final auction printout, I even give the buyer an indication of when they might receive it based on Australia Post times and my experience.

I communicate with the buyer at least twice (more if they want specific info).

When they purchase they get an invoice, when I receive payment I send them a thank you and an arrival estimate, and when they get the item they leave me a feedback and I leave them a feedback based on their payment.

If in the whole process they communicate in a strange or vindictive way I leave no feedback unless they leave feedback which is positive. (You've got to protect yourself from gaining an unfair reputation).

It certainly is a system with many pitfalls in it.

_________________
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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

If a seller subsequently sends a stamp with a bullet hole in it and refuses to refund, a negative comment about the sellers ethics can result in an equal negative against the buyer - the feedback system should be different for buyers and sellers - sellers' feedback should only indicate if the buyer paid on a timely basis - period!- Les Molnar

That is why there is a system to use through ebay and Paypal.

It allows you to get some redress. I have used it as a buyer to get a refund (Paypal) several times when the item has not arrived, or arrived and not as described and returned.

But I have left no feedback for that seller (although one seller did leave me a neutral for "anguish" that I had caused him for having initiated the process, even though I had indicated that I was not having a go at him, just wanted what was described).

Personality is a strange thing to come through on emails but sometimes there are comments made that give you a bad feeling about a transaction and that is when conflict arises.

Another remember reported here paypal levy $US25 "admin" fee to even LOOK at paperwork re a refund. Is that true in your experience?

As 99% of ebay trades are under $US25 it is not worth the paper it is written on is my take.

No my refunds have not had a fee attached, especially when I use Paypal. In some instances after contacting the seller refund has been done immediately. It is only in the case of mailed payment that if something goes wrong that's it. I like to use Paypal for my own security and I accept payments because it gives buyers the same sense.

If ebay is so bad then why are you all still using it. I have had more bad experiences with retailers in Australia and world wide than on E bay.

Many well known retailers in Australia and the world are using e bay more and more. I have sold to the advertising gruru in Sydney via E bay! I have bought from Leski, RAP, shields, Eastern (canada), Marquis, Rolfe, Elsmore, Dunkerley ect , are these all dodgy?

If the stamps are wrong don't buy ask a pointed question and log it onto the page! Leave it for some dumb bunny to buy, report them, delete ebay from your "favourites", Ask for more scans, check their feedback,

I am sure there are thousands of smooth transactions each day with thousands of happy dealers and customers.

I know as I am one!

Ebay has allowed me to sell items that dealers may consider a nuisance. Dealers are not always there to pick up everything you've collected and now want to sell. I have collected plates & toys & stamps & coins & newspapers & etchings & books.

Some items may only be interesting to a very small group of collectors, so that ebay gives an oppurtunity to have a larger group of people worldwide to look at them

I don't hate or dislike ebay it's just that everyone likes to whinge about something.

I have had good encounters with sellers and buyers but you seem to remember the bad ones longer.

Keep collecting.

Good topic Geoff and thanks for the comments.

For those that haven't seen them, I have had two articles (one a 3 part series) published in Stamp News and the latter with a link on the main SCADS page ...

You can read them here together with some of what I have written on expertising ...

http://www.simondunkerley.com/expertising.html

I do sell a bit on eBay from time to time and may continue to do that ... I also buy from time to time and will continue to do that ...

As I have written elsewhere caution is important ... only a fool would buy a used car 'as is' and 'unseen' so why do people buy stamps without asking important questions and seeking suitable guarantees coupled with a 'no quibbles' refund policy?

eBay is like every other market ... buyer beware!

Re feedback I agree that the current system is very flawed ... as I have expressed elsewhere, when you have sellers with high feedback ratings who regularly sell overdescribed material or material that is blatently not genuine as described it becomes quite meaningless.

There is no simple answer as to how you fix this problem when the issue we are often focusing at on this board is the quality/lack of, or authenticity/lack of of a given item. In the majority of cases the 'buying bunny' either does not know or does not want to know the reality of the situation.

In this context, rating a seller by how fast they despatch an item (1 day or a week) or how pretty the envelope it comes in is or how quick the communications are (same day or 3 days ++) really are somewhat insignificant when compared to an error in the description (whether intentional or unintentional) that might mean a stamp someone has paid $800 for is worth $50 at best. I am often away (some say too often!) and even though items are closing whilst I am away I sometimes take them with me and post from whereever if the payment is made, I can't always do that.

In other words, it is my view that if you were to develop a scoring system for feedback with say 10 different criteria, those of condition and authenticity should be worth more than 90% of the score as they are many times more important than anything else could ever be ...

What do you think??

As a collector what I am doing on ebay is selling stamps/coins that I bought mainly at issue price from Australia Post and Royal Australian Mint, over the last 40 years. When I sell I am not like a dealer who has overheads and needs to make a reasonable profit.

My minimum is to recoup the cost of the item and all associated expenses, if an item has skyrocketed and I get an exceptional return then great, if not then I'm happy to break even. When I started collecting it wasn't with an eye to making money but the pleasure of having something beautiful, something old, something that someone else cherished, something that someone else held in their hand 100 years ago (especially coins).

I am not doing it to become wealthy (impossible), it has become almost a hobby in itself.

Posting an item, seeing how many bids you get, contact with the buyer, getting the money and sending the item.

The main problem with eBay is its huge!

You can buy or sell practically anything so isn't it a little naive to expect every single category to have an expert assigned who vets each item for fakes or ripoffs?

A dedicated stamp auction site could probably provide these services but would it be able to attract the traffic eBay does?

In my opinion, its a catch-22, damned if you sell there since your open to all sorts of abuse and damned if you don't cause there ain't no buyers anywhere else.

Just look at Yahoo.

Sure ebay is huge.

But the MAIN problem as an Aussie selling there nowadays is the fact that the US buyers have all disappeared.

I started selling in 1999 and would reckon 50% of sales went to US buyers.

When the US economy took a dump in 2001 the percentage halved. So did the prices achieved.

Since 9/11, and possibly exacerbated by the additional ebay sites around the planet, US sales are almost non-existent.

chazza interesting comment.

I think elsewhere it was mentioned that a Aust stamps lister posting on ebay oz will in general NOT have their stuff easily viewable by US members unless they view in Expert mode of whatever.

That might have a lot to do with it?

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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

Re Feedback:

At Bidferret there is a feedback point for each and every lot which you sell, not just to a unique puchaser.

Quite different from eBay, where you may only have a few clients in a relatively specialised area, and not be able to rack up the points because of this.

Marc, who posts here as Bidferret is working on the Bulk Listing Tool, and the Stores tomorrow and Monday, hopefully these will now be available very soon.

_________________
FREE sample copy of Stamp News Australasia available on request to all Stampboards members!
Also don't forget to checkout our websites at http://www.kevinmorgan.com.au

It is unfortunately easy for bad sellers to have deceptively good feedback, for several reasons:

(1) People sell fake/overpriced/problem items to buyers who are happy because they don't know any better. By the time you're ready to sell your collection and find out how many bad items are in it, it's way too late to leave negative feedback.

You have to be an informed buyer, regardless of the feedback of the seller. This is true at a shop or a stamp show as well as on eBay.

(2) Ironically, some of the worst sellers have excellent return policies to protect their feedback. It's hard to say you were treated wrongly by the seller if when you complain that a stamp is fake or damaged or misidentified the seller says "Sure, send it back and here is your refund." So the feedback of the seller doesn't reflect the problem transactions, or even looks favorable to the seller since it mentions their quick refund policy.

(3) Many sellers hold feedback until the buyer leaves it. Most buyers are afraid to leave bad feedback if they may get a negative in return. Fair to the buyer? no. Legal on eBay and common? Yes.

So a seller of bad items only gets negative feedback when the buyer:

(1) realizes he has been had.
(2) is unable to work out a refund/exchange
(3) has the nerve to risk a negative of his own by complaining

Result: Not much negative feedback for anyone, even bad sellers.

As an aside, everyone who sells sooner or later gets a few negatives from crank buyers. People who don't want to pay for insurance and then blame you when their item is lost; that sort of thing.

The answer to this is simply to have one account for buying and one for selling, then negative feedback can be left and received on your buying account with no consequences for your selling account.

The new anonymous expanded feedback section may help, where available, as eventually even bad sellers with high positive feedback will be unmasked as their postal charge or description ranking will gradually sink lower and lower.

Very true - any seller who fails to describe correctly or makes "profit" on postage should NEVER be given five stars.

That would depend on what you mean by 'profit on postage'. Realistically, from a commercial point of view it is quite reasonable to charge a fee for 'postage, packing and insurance'. So, the postage is only one part of the charge. It is not uncommon for insurance to be charged out at 1-3% or so by commercial firms.

In all of my auctions, the shipping charge includes full insurance at no further cost other than a standard shipping fee where the item is sent by registered mail. I pay a hefty annual fee for marine insurance to provide this service, so the actual postage cost is sometimes only a part of the true story.

With this in mind, consider what happens if someone buys an item on eBay for $5,000 (I have sold a number for this and above) and it is sent registered mail from Australia. Unless an additional insurance fee is paid to Australia Post, the maximum compensation is only $100 (the old registration system in the 1970's-80's covered for $400!). If the 'gap' is not covered and an item goes astray, then there is a significant problem!

I often hear of stories where someone complains of a sellers shipping cost, however, like with everything else, if you don't like it ... then don't bid. Generally we are talking of only a few $ or equivalent so we are not breaking the bank here.

Sending valuable items abroad with USPS is troublesome as well. For many locations, the only way to fully insure an item is to send it Global Express Mail (which costs $20 minimum for postage plus $1 for each $100 of insurance). A fully insured stamp album or stockbook can be $40-$60 to send. People don't want to pay that much shipping...nor do they want to pay Customs duty on the insured value. Can't have it both ways though -- if someone wants cheap airmail and a Customs label that says "Book -- value $20" on their $1000 stamp album, it goes at their risk.

Registered Mail is great for sending domestic items fully insured in the US (you can insure up to $25000 and it's cheaper than UPS insurance or insured Parcel Post). On international parcels, you have to check the limit on insurance -- for most countries it is limited to a small amount ($43). So you pay $11 to register a parcel, are supposed to declare its full value, and can only insure it for a fraction of that...it's like having a big red STEAL ME sign on your package. For countries with unreliable postal systems (Italy, I think, is the worst) you either want to send Global Express Mail or something that looks like an ordinary letter.

I've never had Global Express Mail go missing, though to Italy it took 3 weeks to be delivered instead of the 4-6 days it was supposed to.

In Australia the limit on domestic insurance with PO is $5,000.

I firmly believe buyers who want to save on shipping costs can only do so on the basis that they accept the associated risks.

Simon - completely take your point about insurance, etc...

I think we are talking on slightly different levels here, and I would have NO PROBLEM paying for fully insured delivery for an expensive item as you describe.

My gripe is with the sort of cheeky monkeys who use a 2nd class stamp on a cheap envelope stiffened with a piece of card from a cornflakes packet and charge me £2+ for the privilege. I assume that if I pay that amount, I will at least get recorded delivery...

Erich - that probably explains why a lot of ebay uk dealers refuse to accept bids from italy

Gavin - I agree with your point too - good packing is worth paying for ... bad packing, well there is no excuse for it and if done it should be cheap

Re: overcharging for shipping
Gavin -- I agree with you. Some sellers (particularly of cheap items) on eBay pad the shipping fee, mostly because shipping fees are not subject to ebay listing or final value fees. eBay has a rule against doing this unreasonably, but they give sellers a good bit of slack from what I have seen.

Re: bad places to ship items
Quite a few sellers seem to have trouble with South American countries and Eastern Europe.

The problem with uninsured shipments is that no matter what you appear to have agreed with the bidder:

(1) They can leave you a negative feedback if you don't refund for the missing item, in spite of whatever you say about uninsured items being the responsibility of the bidder once mailed. I've gotten a couple of those.

(2) If they paid with PayPal, they can file a dispute and try to get their money back. My understanding of the PayPal rules is that they require recorded delivery to prove you shipped an item, so PayPal can essentially force you to refund for an item when it would not otherwise be your policy. If they used a credit card, either directly or through PayPal, they can try to arrange a chargeback.

One way around that problem is to make it compulsory for shipments to be registered. In all of my listings since day one it has been a condition of bidding that shipments of $US100 or more must be sent registered unless agreed to by the buyer - which does still leave it partly open ...

In the real commercial philatelic world, virtually all shipments are by registered mail. If I do get serious about selling on ebay at some stage, I am tending towards making registration compulsory for all shipments, with no exceptions granted. This might lose a few sales, however probably a small price to pay for having fewer headaches.

For sellers that sell very cheap items, the occasional astray item is no great financial loss, just an inconvenience that no one needs and there is probably no simple way around it. This is particularly the case as non-registered sendings also rely on the honesty of the buyer as there is no proof of sending or receipt.

Simon,

Given that you tend to deal with top end items, I would say ou are quite right to insist on registered delivery as standard. I think posting oveseas from Australia is not always that easy if you want to insure with AP. Registered gives you $100 of insurance and Insured post has no registration...doh!!. I ship a lot of stamps to the UK, but anything valuable goes normal post in a plain envelope with a birthday/anniversary card to a relative over there who then repacks and forwards using local recorded/registered. This works out cheaper and quicker than using APs international registered service.....crazy but true....

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very friendly ebay seller and buyer

I have been reading with great interest your experiences and suggestions for dealing with ebay. As I mentioned in another forum I have only just become a stampie and I find I am voraciously devouring just about ANYTHING that I can find on Australian stamps. Hence my membership to this website and my buying up of old issues of Stamp News etc. It is extremely difficult to obtain information for green stamp collectors that does not pre assume a general working knowledge of the subject. I live in a regional centre and even the local library does not carry any books on stamp collecting, so my research has been mainly done through internet websites and Stamp News (6 back copies by the way, I was able to purchase on ebay for a total of $4.00 and very reasonable postage).

I found it a little disconcerting and more than a bit humbling in previous threads to read from members that buyers should really do a bit of research before purchasing from ebay etc... a very true statement, but those of us who have not had the benefit of mentors or help in any way are struggling through a veritable drought of Australian knowledge for the absolute beginner. There is very little for us adult new collectors which would assist us to become reasonably educated regarding stamps. I also would suggest that there is a growing market of others like myself (newly retired, reasonable $$$ to spend on "hobby plus investment") so I feel strongly that people like yourselves (whom I would call experts or specialists) have a moral obligation to put out this sort of information in order to allow further development and to nurture the industry. This information dissemination should be encouraged, particularly as we are now living in a world where electronic communication - emails, chat lines, sms and IM are becoming the norm. We might soon see a greater shortage of stamps and paperwork as we use electronic mail more regularly.

This forum is a great avenue for just such a venture. Thank you all for contributing to it so readily. Please however, do not be too harsh on your criticism of us green buyers - perhaps our only crime is that we are too trustworthy and believe others to be so too.


To end on a humorous note... I recently relegated to the bottom on my stamp box all those stamps where I thought some rotten little vandals had attacked and poked OS holes in them. Thankfully I did not actually throw them out so have now done a rescue mission. And I only found out the other day that a certain die is not the shade of colour as I thought it to be - I found this out the embarrassing way when I asked a visiting stamp dealer to sell me a cheap example of each die lot so that I can compare them and be able to recognise each one.

Before you dismiss me as a total fool, I DO have 3 Uni degrees and I think I possess some semblance of intelligence. (My husband might disagree on this latter point). But if I am having all this difficulty with terminology and other issues, how do other newbies fare?

AAHHhh... now I feel better.

We were all newbies once, so just absorb.

Hi Repanidi,
I can concur with your sentiments.

The best place to be seen is -Ask a question-

You have questions - SOMEONE will have the answers!.
The experts tend to scan this area regularly,as do we all and give replies which help people understand more about stamps. No question is too silly, only maybe the answer.
Hope you post lots of questions and maybe some pictures to help give the answers.

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.