Share your Russians in Germany Stamps and covers 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Good points Chkpoint Charlie, but not really the right thread for this type of issue. There are threads relating to ebay scams/fakes or alternatively there is the thread "The Americans & British in Germany Stamps 1945-1949 (Bizone)" https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=75589. It is also generally expected if referring to eBay sellers that you give appropriate links.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by liketodabble »

015.JPG
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Hi, came across these in an old German album i put away and forgot, would like to know if they are genuine or fake
Hi, came across these in an old German album i put away and forgot, would like to know if they are genuine or fake
018.JPG
017.JPG
016.JPG
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

Could you please post up larger scans of one or two of the smaller pieces, both front and back, then we should be able to give you a better opinion. Thanks.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

I am no expert on these issues but would say are most likely fakes. Would it be possible to show an enlarged scan of some of the reverse sides?- usually, in genuine examples, a very oily ink was used which bleeds into the back of the stamps.

I am sure you will get further comments! (Edit- I see one above!)
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by liketodabble »

020.JPG
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this is a close up photo, cant scan very well
this is a close up photo, cant scan very well
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by Global Admin »

liketodabble wrote: 23 Jun 2020 22:02
cant scan very well


Cannot type very well either - we still have zero idea what your QUESTION might be about these?
.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by liketodabble »

I can't see my question, I would like to know if they a Genuine or Fake.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

There’s no way to be 100% certain, but these look OK from the scan.

There are 10 types of the 16 Jena 1 overprint and this matches exactly with Type d, position of the 1 above the gap between e and n, shape of J and space between a and 1 are all correct.

There is no premium for this type, so value is as per basic type listed in Michel.

Of course, without expertising we can’t be certain, and nowadays it’s not easy to get a certificate for them.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

gavin-h wrote: 24 Jun 2020 20:38
There is no premium for this type, so value is as per basic type listed in Michel.

Of course, without expertising we can’t be certain, and nowadays it’s not easy to get a certificate for them.
Although presumably having blocks could add a premium? Also, apparently, some of these were hand-stamped by P.O. staff after the allowed issue period- more or less impossible to spot these!
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by liketodabble »

Thank you for the positive information, i suspected that they were genuine after having been told what to look for.<br />I thought i would submit these 2 to point out how the the imprints differ in style and the error on the second stamp top left <br />116 jena instead of 16.<br />Thanks once again, i have quite a few German blocks that i would like some information and will post them soon
Thank you for the positive information, i suspected that they were genuine after having been told what to look for.
I thought i would submit these 2 to point out how the the imprints differ in style and the error on the second stamp top left
116 jena instead of 16.
Thanks once again, i have quite a few German blocks that i would like some information and will post them soon
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

Yes, the presence of the different types of overprint is a point in their favour, I'd say. Who would fake two similar but different overprints.

The one that appears to show 116 isn't in fact an error, it's the overlap of the 1 from "16 Jena 1" on the adjacent stamp. Because these were applied individually by hand, it is quite common for them to overlap from one stamp to the next.

The "hand stamp" was a piece of equipment normally used to officially identify the post office on various forms, for example parcel cards as in the example shown below. The use for overprinting stamps was purely an expedient measure to validate the stamps during the short period of the currency reform. So, to overprint a sheet or block of stamps, you'd do each one individually, hence the overlaps...

Image
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Just obtained this little item: a "search card" used in the Soviet Zone to try to track displaced/missing persons after WWII.

Suchdienstkarte.jpg
SBZ Suchdienstkarte
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by DarrenK »

Wow.

I've never come across one of those.

Very nice.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

DarrenK wrote: 27 Jun 2020 13:49 Wow.

I've never come across one of those.

Very nice.
Not an expensive item but generally more pricy if completed. Here is the reverse:

SUCH CARD REV.jpg
SBZ Suchdienstkarte Reverse

It looks as if there may have been another part attached for a reply. Perhaps a Member has more info. on these?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

To answer my own question here is one with the reply part:

suchdienst repl.jpg

And here is a used one, currently on Delcampe at £470!

suchdienst compl.jpg

Of course, extra stamps needed as after currency change.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by Catweazle »

Swapping my DDR stamps into a new album, and noticed that there are 'Berlin' issues from both West and East Germany, in addition to West and East German issues.

Then I see your first post here:
gavin-h wrote: 28 Jan 2010 07:02 The Soviet Zone of Germany produced a massive variety of issues over a relatively short period of time - some more "official" than others.

There was a wide variety of local "town" issues, and several "Postal Districts" issuing stamps between 1945 and 1948 when the first zone-wide stamps were issued following the currency reform.
So, am I correct to understand that both sides of Berlin issued its own variety of issues, not just national stamps?

Moreover, were these Berlin issues valid only for postage from Berlin? Or were they used across Germany (i.e. Hamburg to Cologne)?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Oh wow, Catweazle, you've certainly asked a question there! This really needs "teasing out" into the different periods.

Firstly the local issues or "lokalausgaben" which were produced early on, mostly in the Soviet Zone, (we have to remember that just after occupation there was some fluidity in the zones geographically). As far as I know (although far from being an expert) these were not, in fact, produced particularly for Berlin but in many other localities.

Then we have the period after the currency reform of 1948 when the American and British Zones ("Bizone") started to produce stamps specifically for use in (West) Berlin.
See: "The Americans & British in Germany Stamps 1945-1949 (Bizone)"
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=75589&p=4665068#p4665068
for more on these.

These were originally considered unacceptable in the Soviet Zone and were sometimes subject to postal war ("postkrieg"). They were initially only valid in West Berlin. The general Bizone issues were also valid there as were, perhaps surprisingly, the early Soviet Zone issues of the period.

These Berlin issues became valid in the rest of West Germany from January 1950 and continued to be issued as different from, but often very similar to, BRD issues right up to the reunification at the end of 1990!

The DDR did not produce specific stamps for East Berlin at any time but obviously a number of their issues will have featured the city (the arguments about Berlin being the capital of the DDR rather than of the whole of Germany also sometimes spilled into philately!).

Anyway- hope this helps. You could always show us some of the stamps you are referring to!
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

For completeness I should have added that a set of stamps generally known as the Berlin and Brandenburg issue were produced in 1945 by the Soviet Authorities for use in Greater Berlin.Their validity gradually increased to other parts of the SBZ over time.They were valid until 31st October 1946.

B AND B SET.jpg
B&B Mi1-7
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 18 Jan 2020 01:04 I don't generally collect postal stationery per se but have a number of examples from the Allied Occupation period. Here is a typical SBZ overprint on a postcard:

Image

The equivalent stamps were obviously overprinted in sheets but how did they overprint the cards? Wondered if anyone knows the technical process involved.
One time in my early printing career I was supplied with a stack of postcards in uncut sheets of 6 or 8. The overall size was like a regular sheet of index stock. I ran them through my small offset press and then after the ink dried they were cut down into regular postcard size. The post office has been suppling these uncut sheets for multiple printing since 1875. So you will find all kinds of weird cuts from these! :geek:
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Thanks, Chkpoint Charlie. I obviously hadn't thought of them being in sheets! If you have a knowledge of printing techniques you will be able to help many of us who flounder with all the methods and stages involved in the production of stamps!
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 28 Jul 2020 22:42 Thanks, Chkpoint Charlie. I obviously hadn't thought of them being in sheets! If you have a knowledge of printing techniques you will be able to help many of us who flounder with all the methods and stages involved in the production of stamps!
I realized that I could feed single regular sized postcards through my small offset press, it would handle several thousand a shift. It could be done to handle post office stocks on hand over a period of time. I examined the overprint on a couple of mint examples and it was done by letterpress (typography), the same handling of either sheets or single postcards was easily done on the presses of the era.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes, I think this is most likely because the position of the overprints is all over the place on different examples!
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by DarrenK »

I have a few covers to share here.

Some are obviously philatelic in nature, others not.

Covers_0003.jpg
Covers_0002.jpg
Covers_0001.jpg
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by DarrenK »

Covers_0004.jpg
Covers_0005.jpg
Covers_0006.jpg
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by DarrenK »

Covers_0009.jpg
Covers_0010.jpg
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Nice covers, DarrenK, but I would judge that they are all philatelic. Although these stamps were valid in the other Regions a special effort would presumably have to be made to obtain them!

O.K. the postcard is all Saxony Province (plus a Trizone) but why would you send a postcard Registered in the first place? :) . Also seems to be massively underpaid- should be 12+60Pf- a bit suspicious!
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by maptrekker »

Just an interesting cover (at least to me) of the use of a postage meter in the Russian sector of Berlin which was then reused to reply.

It is from the Search Service for Missing Germans in the Soviet Occupation Zone of Germany.

1947 printed matter rate to Lübeck in the British Zone and return.

Lubeck Reused Cover.jpg
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes, maptrekker, an interesting cover. Presumably the agency was looking for information about missing persons. You would have thought they might have some sort of "post paid" reply method?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Something for the Plate Flaw experts. East Saxony Mi53 has, according to Michel, amongst others, the following flaw: "53IV right tendril border broken through (pos.13)".

ES Mi53 cover.jpg
On this cover, looking at the strips and assuming 10x10 sheets, if the top left stamp was at position 2 on the sheet then the second from the left on the second row would be position 13. Even if the top strip was not from that position the same argument could apply.

ES Mi53  cover crop.jpg

What do you think?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Was lucky enough to pick up this used card recently for a fairly reasonable price:

RUS ZONE CARD SCHWERIN.jpg
Reverse:
RUS ZONE SCHWERIN CARD REVERSE.jpg

Overprinted in Russian. These are relatively easy to obtain mint but much scarcer used.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by maptrekker »

Absolutely fabulous postal card. British occupation postal card overprinted in Russian for the Russian Zone.

Schwerin was occupied by the Americans but soon transferred to the British. On 1 Jul 1945 it was transferred to the Russian Zone in conformance with the occupation zones agreed to at the Yalta Conference.

Information on the complex mail rules that resulted are in the Mecklenburg-Vorpommern section of the Michel Catalogue.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Thanks,maptrekker. Another version of the card has a legend which is amusing to a (British) English speaker, and so seems to have been altered!

Image

By chance have just posted a Schwerin Bezirkhandstempel cover on the "My “Bezirkshandstempel” (District Hand Stamped) cover collection thread."!
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=92063&start=50
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Earlier in the thread some plate flaws were shown for the East Saxony 6Pf Mi43. Looking at my mint copy I realised that it was not, in fact, the Imperf. Mi43A but an example of the Official Roulette Mi43BII (10x10), issued July 19th 1945. There is also a 43BI (13-13½) issued June 30th 1945. These are considered distinct from the various Postmaster Separations.

SBZ 43BII.jpg
Mi43BII

I thought it would be nice to obtain pairs of each on cover:

Date: 15.07.45
SBZ Mi43BI cover.jpg
SBZ Mi43BI
Crop:
SBZ Mi43BI cover crop.jpg

Date: 10.10.45
SBZ Mi43BII cover.jpg
SBZ Mi43BII
Crop (enhanced):
SBZ Mi43BII cover crop.jpg

My old Michel Briefe-Katalog values these as pairs on cover at 55 and 80 (DM) respectively.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Here is another East Saxony cover just received:

Date: 17?07.45
Four Mi46 cover.jpg
SBZ Mi46

Here the block of four 12Pf stamps have been used on a Local Registered cover. Probably philatelic and unfortunately no "receiving" cancel on the reverse, which are often seen on Registered covers. Although the correct rate was 38Pf and this could have been fulfilled with three 10Pf and an 8Pf it was probably easier just to cut out this block!

The bottom RH stamp appears to have the fairly common Plate Flaw 46II: "lower left post horn connected to frame".
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Here is one I need help with:
Mi46b Cover.jpg
SBZ Mi46

Apparently an ordinary Mi46 cover (not a good image as scanner on the blink).

However, here is the date:
Mi46 cancel photo.jpg
Taken on phone with magnifier

This is where I need help- my old Michel Briefe-Katalog gives the issue date for 46Aa as 5.7.45 and for 46Ab as 28.6.45. If this is correct then this must be a 46Ab (Cat.40 single franking on cover rather than 3(DM) for Aa).

However my newer (2009) Michel Specialized (English Version) only shows the 28th June date for both! If some kind Member has access to a newish Specialized in German could they check this out?

Many thanks in anticipation.

(By the way I cannot tell the difference between 46Aa and Ab!)
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

Yes, the 2015 Specialised (German language edition) shows 28 June for both versions.

I can think of two possible explanations.

Firstly, they may have "simplified the specialised".

Secondly - and in my opinion more likely - the earlier information has been found to be unreliable, not an uncommon situation in Soviet-occupied Germany. :idea:
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Thanks, gavin-h. Oh well, at least it's a very early date! Of course, I could always have it expertised (60Euros + postage?) :(
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Speaking of Expertising: "Vov"!

Currently on Delcampe at £745!
43Ac.jpg
SBZ Mi 43Ac

Cert.
43Ac Cert.jpg

Note that the very similar 43Aa is only worth pence!
Mi42Aa.jpg
SBZ Mi43Aa
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

The rare Intense Greenish Black shade, which Herr Stroh notes is an error of colour.

Fehldruck = Misprint but in this case can clearly be interpreted as "printed in the wrong colour".

I don't think I've ever seen a genuine one of these before, they are indeed very rare and as you say, very similar (with a following wind and a bit of wishful thinking!) to the common shade Mi43Aa
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

gavin-h wrote: 21 Nov 2020 23:30 The rare Intense Greenish Black shade, which Herr Stroh notes is an error of colour.

Fehldruck = Misprint but in this case can clearly be interpreted as "printed in the wrong colour".

I don't think I've ever seen a genuine one of these before, they are indeed very rare and as you say, very similar (with a following wind and a bit of wishful thinking!) to the common shade Mi43Aa
Better rush- he's got another one listed for only £700!
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 21 Nov 2020 23:43 Better rush- he's got another one listed for only £700!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Speaking of varieties- previously I was speculating as to whether a Mi46 on cover (cancelled 04.07.45) was Mi46b.

Here is a pic. showing a typical 46a on the left and a proofed 46b on the right.
Mi 46 Comparison.jpg
SBZ Mi46a,46?,46b

The 46as (of which I have a number,) seem a little more "orangey"?

Any thoughts?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by gavin-h »

We've heard all the caveats about colour reproduction on screen, but by using a single image as you've done here that largely mitigates those issues.

From that scan, I'd say the stamp on cover is definitely more Mi46b than Mi46a. :idea:
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Thanks, gavin-h. It has gone into the collection as "46Ab?"!

I have seen a few covers for sale claiming to bear this stamp, but without proofing???
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by AdrianChantler »

Hi all, I have this bezirkhandstemp item. It was probably cut from a postcard or cover.
I am unable to scan it, so have taken a photo.

Image

Leipzig 27
July 5th 1948.

It appears to have an expertisers mark on the reverse.

Image

I know some of you are very knowledgeable in this area.
Last edited by CMJ on 17 Feb 2021 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
Be like a postage stamp, stick to one thing until you get there.
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes, AdrianChantler. Unusual in that you have Leipzig 27 in Bezirk 27!

Dr Kalb appears to be a recent/current expertiser.
https://www.bpp.de/en/stamp-expert/active/klaus-kalb/

My Michel Specialized gives a value of 6 (Euros) for used, with a small enhancement for Leipzig 27. Perhaps worth a little more "on piece"?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Recently obtained (very cheaply) a basic set of the first East Saxony issue, Mi42-50. (I just wanted a couple of the set but too cheap to sell singly!). Amongst them was one with a, fairly common, plate flaw:

East Saxony Mi48AaIII.jpg
SBZ Mi48AaIII

"ink fleck over the lower right post horn (pos. 29,79)"

This catalogues at 8 rather than 0.8 Euros so I suppose something of a bargain! (The seller was aware of, and highlighted, the flaw).
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Couldn't resist this Russian International Reply card used as a Regional Postcard.

Russian Return card.jpg
SBZ Mi43A

Expect it might have been cadged off a Russian soldier!

These seem pretty scarce used from or to Russia?
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Here is an East Saxony Registered cover where they have used a, quite commonly seen,"Feldpost" Registered label, presumably left from Wartime stock? They are often, although not in this case, overprinted with the town name. The rate of 42Pf is made up with other stamps as no 42Pf stamp was produced.

East Saxony Reg3.jpg
SBZ Mi58,60
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Re: The Russians in Germany Stamps 1945-49 (Soviet Zone)

Post by OldDuffer1 »

In addition to Varieties and Plate Flaws in some cases Michel lists a Type I,II etc. This can be from different printings or due to a major difference between stamps on one plate. One example is the East Saxony 3Pf Mi51. Here the difference is in the shape of the "3".

Here is an example showing Type II on the left ("Blunt head") and the commoner Type I on the right ("Pointed head"):

Mi51II.jpg
SBZ Mi51II,51I

51II appears at positions 11,31,51,71,91. This stamp can also be found with a variety of papers and gums.

Here is an example of a cover bearing Mi51II:
Date: 10.01.46
Mi51II cover.jpg
SBZ Mi42,51II,53

These are obviously scarcer than those bearing 51I.
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