How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

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How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by pennyblack1 »

Hi chaps,

Have recently become very interested in States stamps etc, have acquired some proof material, one is marked as original, three as reprints. The original is the cut close example, and from my research that seems to be accurate, some blocks of four have appeared recently.

Of the other three, the example without the value is a sunken die proof which seems unusual to be something labelled as a reprint.

Three are on thick wove paper, the 1856 Carmichael type on thick card. I have seen similar examples with very high price tags.

All are ex Chartwell. Any info much appreciated.

ATB

Robin

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Re: Diadem Proofs

Post by Global Administrator »

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Re: Diadem Proofs

Post by Machaggis52 »

I can see four scans in the OP.
With kind regards, Jim

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Re: Diadem Proofs

Post by librarianc »

Machaggis52 wrote:
I can see four scans in the OP.
You should also be able to see this:
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Re: How Do you tell if a Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by Global Administrator »

These came in various colours and here are a few I have sold recently.

Most attractive and not really expensive. :mrgreen:
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Re: How Do you tell if a Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by Global Administrator »

.
On the other had this was a NSW 1d PLATE PROOF pair I sold that was unique, and was pretty expensive. Lovely blued paper effect.


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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by pennyblack1 »

Thanks Glen, but how does one tell the difference between originals and reprints,

Best regards,

Robin

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by thecloudwatcher »

My thoughts:

Original die proofs of the Diadem series are almost always in black, the exceptions being the 6d (in purple) and 5s (in mauve) die proofs of 1877.

The reprinted die proofs always have a portion, or portions, of the design removed or altered, and thus differ from the original incomplete die proofs. The paper invariably is different to that used for the originals, which was thin India paper for the originals.

Any die proof on coloured paper is a reprint.

Clarifications and corrections always appreciated.

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Re: How Do you tell if a Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by pertinax »

Global Administrator wrote:On the other had this was a NSW 1d PLATE PROOF pair I sold that was unique, and was pretty expensive. Lovely blued paper effect.
Image
In what respect is this unique, Glen?

Paul Fletcher had two big blocks and I've seen others including a block of six that I have:

Image

Maybe I should sell it!


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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by pennyblack1 »

Does anyone know of a catalogue these are listed in ?

ATB

Robin

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by Rod Perry »

pennyblack1 wrote:Does anyone know of a catalogue these are listed in ?

ATB

Robin
Robson Lowe Encyclopaedia Vol IV is a good start.

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by Global Administrator »

thecloudwatcher wrote:My thoughts:

Original die proofs of the Diadem series are almost always in black, the exceptions being the 6d (in purple) and 5s (in mauve) die proofs of 1877.

The reprinted die proofs always have a portion, or portions, of the design removed or altered, and thus differ from the original incomplete die proofs. The paper invariably is different to that used for the originals, which was thin India paper for the originals.

Any die proof on coloured paper is a reprint.

Clarifications and corrections always appreciated.
Excellent guide to these. The colour proof versions look really striking, and I always sell them fast, as they are not high priced. :)


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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by pennyblack1 »

Rod Perry wrote:
pennyblack1 wrote:Does anyone know of a catalogue these are listed in ?

ATB

Robin
Robson Lowe Encyclopaedia Vol IV is a good start.

Rod
Thanks Rod, I have vols 1 & 2 so will pick one up. So the unique proof that Glen had, that Scott has seen a few of, would that be described as unique in there, and since perhaps shown to be wrong, or are there other publications giving numbers, or is it just acquired knowledge from 'named sales'/exhibits etc etc ? I'm guessing maybe the latter.. or has someone done the research ?

ATB

Robin

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by Global Administrator »

And not all States proofs in Black are original era. :idea:

I sold this for just a few $100 and feel sure it was not 1850s. :)

Bernie Manning did not have it, so who knows. Lot of guesswork in this era.


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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by MJ's pet »

thecloudwatcher wrote:My thoughts:

Original die proofs of the Diadem series are almost always in black, the exceptions being the 6d (in purple) and 5s (in mauve) die proofs of 1877.

The reprinted die proofs always have a portion, or portions, of the design removed or altered, and thus differ from the original incomplete die proofs. The paper invariably is different to that used for the originals, which was thin India paper for the originals.

Any die proof on coloured paper is a reprint.

Clarifications and corrections always appreciated.
I endorse these comments. A very sensible guide indeed. :D

If in doubt post a scan of the item and the "shooting gallery" will quickly tell you if it is original or a reprint. :D

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by MJ's pet »

Global Administrator wrote:And not all States proofs in Black are original era. :idea:

I sold this for just a few $100 and feel sure it was not 1850s. :)

Bernie Manning did not have it, so who knows. Lot of guesswork in this era.
Image
Those Qld 2d's in black are probably original plate proofs.

The plate was huge (240 units) so they are not super-rare.

Still worth a few $100 though.

Qld is tricky though as some reprinted material was done in black.

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a repri

Post by Rod Perry »

pennyblack1 wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
pennyblack1 wrote:Does anyone know of a catalogue these are listed in ?

ATB

Robin
Robson Lowe Encyclopaedia Vol IV is a good start.

Rod
Thanks Rod, I have vols 1 & 2 so will pick one up. So the unique proof that Glen had, that Scott has seen a few of, would that be described as unique in there, and since perhaps shown to be wrong, or are there other publications giving numbers, or is it just acquired knowledge from 'named sales'/exhibits etc etc ? I'm guessing maybe the latter.. or has someone done the research ?

ATB

Robin
The Diadem Plate proofs (and Die proofs/reprinted Die proofs) are described and priced in detail.

Prices for Proofs vary from 10/- (this one) to £10.

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by josto »

Hello,

I found this weird looking imperforated 5d green NSW example in an old collection. I expect it to be some crude fake, but can anyone shed some light on this example.

The paper is unwatermarked and a little bit thicker than normal stamps. Of couorse this OS overprint looks totally fake. But is the diadem itself also a fake or perhaps a reprint or proof!? Any comments would be nice!



NSW 5d diadem.jpg
Greetings

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Josto - someone has had a red marker pen out on that joke!

Sold a few proofs of these recently - very pretty things -



June21-NSW 6d Slate imperf DIE proof 6-21.jpg
.
Dec20-NSW 1856 Diadem Die Proof in Green.jpg
.
Apl21-NSW 6d Proof.jpg
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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by josto »

Glen,

so you think it might be a proof which a stupid idiot ruined by painting this red OS on it!? :evil:

Greetings

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by Global Administrator »

.

Look at the eyes and nose and mouth and all background Josto, compared to the REAL images above -- just a forged stamp with a laughably fake OS.

Be a smash on FakeBay!
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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by satsuma »

HIi Josto
Also, compare the G in POSTAGE.
Yours look like a C.

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by Allanswood »

You only have to look at the engine turned background of the Queens head. No forger could copy that detail.
Josto's example is just made up of crosshatched lines.

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by MJ's pet »

Allanswood wrote:
16 Sep 2021 08:58
You only have to look at the engine turned background of the Queens head. No forger could copy that detail.
Josto's example is just made up of crosshatched lines.

Agree. The stamp looks fake and the OS is obviously fake. This is the real thing:

5d Diadem.jpg

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by MJ's pet »

Compare with this thread:

Share your New South Wales QV "Diadem" stamps, SG type 11,

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6174318

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by MJ's pet »

josto wrote:
16 Sep 2021 06:23
I found this weird looking imperforated 5d green NSW example in an old collection. I expect it to be some crude fake, but can anyone shed some light on this example.

The paper is unwatermarked and a little bit thicker than normal stamps. Of course this OS overprint looks totally fake. But is the diadem itself also a fake or perhaps a reprint or proof!? Any comments would be nice!


Image


Here is a useful website: http://stampforgeries.com/new-south-wales-queen-victoria/

It kind of resembles the de Torres forgery (in black and white) with "C" in "POSTACE", but not exactly. It has the weirrddo "OS" overprint of the Oneglia which was not applied by Oneglia. Some forgers (Oneglia?) made multiple engravings so there are different "types" of their forgeries existing.

5d diadem forgeries.png

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by josto »

Hi!

Thanks for that valuable information and for the link to that website!

Greetings

josto

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by blue-within-blue »

Josto's forgery is the Oneglia forgery shown on the Stampforgeries website ; put them side by side, they are identical. The only difference is that Josto's photo is much clearer, with far more fine detail.

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Re: How to tell if a NSW Diadem Proof is original or a reprint?

Post by MJ's pet »

^Thanks Rob. Is it correct to say that the "OS" was not applied by Oneglia and it was applied later by someone else?

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