Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forgeries

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by johnrcrow »

Global Administrator wrote:johcrow - please ***NEVER* post 15 images in a row in a general thread.

The thread will take an hour to load for those with slow connections.

FIVE images per post is normal except for Sales Forums where threads only got for 1 or 2 posts not 50 a page.

Make 3 posts, but NEVER 15 images in 1 post please.

Damn I forgot about slow connections.

SORRY ALL!!

Sorry Glen (yet again).

Thanks for the answers on stamps. Most illuminating.

I will provide perfs/paper/UV a little later on one's described as awaiting decisions.

Lovely thread. Goodnight from Austria.

John

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Global Administrator »

John .. lesson learnt. :)

I was in Ghana West Africa for a week earlier this month staying at different hotels each night, and in places like that you get a wake-up call that internet connections are not always the speed of Western Europe or Australia. :mrgreen:

Threads like the last page here would take 10 mins to load there, I kid you not. :)

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by johnrcrow »

I totally agree.

I travelled a great deal to many developing countries when I worked and can verify that Internet connection and low capacity computers slow one down.

Maybe a good thing sometimes.

Bring back the Fax machine I say!! The pace of communication then fits better with the pace of life in most countries, too much hurry up offense with e mail/Skype etc.

Anyway the penalty of having higher tech here, makes one inconsiderate.

Hope you enjoyed Heligoland ( is it an island)?

I suppose someone has asked what defines a 'fake' since mine are mostly 'faked'? I have many reprints too. Also bet fakes, if identified, are worth a few bob.

Yes I will read back through the thread tomorrow. Grappling with these stamps is ominous so back to the 1450 or so flaws on the 10Pf Crown and Adlers (make the GV heads look simple).

Regards

John

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by johnrcrow »

PS. Glen, have we a Ghanian member?

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by stampman2005 »

I did not read all 204 responses to your question, so the following resource may have already been offered by another chat board member:

C:\Documents and Settings\Bill Ullom\My Documents\Philately\Heligoland - The Robert Pollard Heligoland Study.mht

It is a scholarly and most reliable work - enjoy!

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

johnrcrow wrote:Just seen this excellent thread. Opportune as I am looking at Heligoland stamps.

Laziness and lack of expertise means I will post some for comments. Will of course supply UV data and backs/paper if anything looks promising.

I see that experts here are able to diagnose stamps from fronts mainly.

Thank you in advance for any attempts at ID!

I love the different shapes of her nose!!

Dear johnrcrow ! We continue, going from the easy ones to the difficult ones.

No 7. To be a genuine one, the perforation must be a. precisely 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 and b. the

paper must be the quadrille type ! This type of paper is built up by visible lines going vertical

as well as horosontal, making small quadrilles. It is easily seen from the back of the stamp,

holding the stamp against any lampe. If the paper is without quadrilles and perfotation 14 x

14, we are dealing with a Hamburg reprint, perforation 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 (without quadrilles)

indicates a Berlin reprint. My guess: a Berlin reprint, but let me hear.

No 11. The same problem: If perforation 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 precisely and quadrille paper it is

genuine ! If perforation 14 x 14 it is a Hamburg reprint, if 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 without

quadrille paper, we are dealing with a Berlin reprint. Leipzig reprint not possible because of

normal perforation holes.

No 12. If the perforation is 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 it can be either a genuine one or a Berlin reprint.

The colour could indicate a genuine one, but: we must examinate with UV-light. You can use

long waves or short waves. I think it is a little better with long waves. If genuine the red

carmine colour of the stamp will easily seen turn violet and the green colour goes to

greenish black/black. If a Berlin reprint the carmine goes to orange !! It is very easily seen.

If the perforation is 14 x 14 it is a Hamburg reprint, Leipzig reprint not possible because of

normal perforation holes. My guess: impossible without the result of the above mentioned

things.

No 8. It is head-type I, therefore Berlin reprint is not possible ! The perforation holes are

normal, therefore a leipzig reprint is not possible ! Therefore: it can be a Hamburg reprint or

a genuine one. Now it is easy: if perforation 14 x 14, it is a Hamburg reprint ! If perforation

precisely 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 it is a genuine one ! My guess: both results are possible ! Let me

hear.

If it turns out to be genuine (13 1/2 x 14 1/4), there are 3 types: a and b are made of

quadrille paper, c is made of normal, not quadrille paper. a and b are more valuable than c,

but all the 3 are good. If you end in a or b, I can guide you further on via UV examination.

Now we come to the 2 worst stamps at all, regarding Helgoland stamps ! We will start with

No 16. This type has not Leipzig reprints. Start with perforation: if 14 x 14, it is a Hamburg

reprint. If 13 1/2 x 14 the outer colours will not tell us, whether we are dealing with the two

genuine types or the two Berlin reprints. We must use UV light. Now be careful: we ONLY

look at the colour-change of the red colour in the crown and the green colour of the

main-stamp, not the green colour in the shield ! If a genuine one, the crown colour will turn

very deep purple or very deep lilac and the main green colour will turn dark gray or deep

greenish gray !! If a Berlin reprint it is enough to look at the crown: the red colour turns to

orange or orange-brown, that is far away from the violet or lilac colours in the genuine ones

! Statistically we are dealing with a reprint, but let me hear.

Now we only have the worst of the worst to remain: no 6.

But I will take a little breake ! I will return.

Best regards

Benny Andersen, Denmark



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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

johnrcrow wrote:Just seen this excellent thread. Opportune as I am looking at Heligoland stamps.

Laziness and lack of expertise means I will post some for comments. Will of course supply UV data and backs/paper if anything looks promising.

I see that experts here are able to diagnose stamps from fronts mainly.

Thank you in advance for any attempts at ID!

I love the different shapes of her nose!!

Dear johnrcrow !

I have given you an answer about 5 of the six remaining stamps, but I cannot see it on those

pages ! I do not hope, that they are disappeared ! It was a very, very long and minutious

answer. Have you received it ?

Now we go on with the last and the most difficult of your Helgoland stamps,

No 6. Not to drown in it, we will start gently: If perforation 14 x 14, it is a Hamburg reprint

and a Hamburg reprint has a smooth, shiny surface.

For me to see the perforation the perforation shows a little too broad teeth, but nevertheless

the perforation holes not look especially small and therefore I do not think primarily, that we

are dealing with a Leipzig reprint with perforation 13 1/2 x 14 1/4. But: a Leipzig reprint

has a still more shiny and smooth surface than a Hamburg reprint !

Half of the genuine stamps have the quadrille type of paper and all genuines have a

normal surface or in fact a coarse surface because of a rough wove !

Therefore: let me here, whether the perforation is a. 14 x 14 and a smooth surface, or b. 13

1/2 x 14 1/4 and a special smooth surface, c. check if the paper is quadrille.

For me to see, the surface look smooth and therefore I would guess: a Hamburg or a Leipzig

reprint. Let me here the result of your examinations, before we go on.

Best regards

Benny Andersen, Denmark








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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by johnrcrow »

I HAVE HASTILY CHECKED THE STAMPS YOU MARKED OUT.

7: perf 13.5 x 14.25/not quadrilled/dark lilac fl

8: perf 14 x 14 not quadrilled/dark green fl

11: perf 14/bright orange fl

15: 13.5 x 14.25 crown to dark orange

16: 13.5 x 14.25 crown to darkish orange

12: Signed BPP is 13.5 x 14.25/greenish black fl/ genuine?

I have checked fluorescence on three others like 16 with perf 13 1/2 by 14 1/4 and two give the genuine fluorescence signal (crown to dark gray, very different to third that gives the orange crown).

I have about 20 other stamps that I will check and send any problem one’s to you.

The use of the UV lamp was relatively easier than with other stamps

Great thread and thanks for sorting me out.

john

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

johnrcrow wrote:I HAVE HASTILY CHECKED THE STAMPS YOU MARKED OUT.

7: perf 13.5 x 14.25/not quadrilled/dark lilac fl

8: perf 14 x 14 not quadrilled/dark green fl

11: perf 14/bright orange fl

15: 13.5 x 14.25 crown to dark orange

16: 13.5 x 14.25 crown to darkish orange

12: Signed BPP is 13.5 x 14.25/greenish black fl/ genuine?

I have checked fluorescence on three others like 16 with perf 13 1/2 by 14 1/4 and two give the genuine fluorescence signal (crown to dark gray, very different to third that gives the orange crown).

I have about 20 other stamps that I will check and send any problem one’s to you.

The use of the UV lamp was relatively easier than with other stamps

Great thread and thanks for sorting me out.

john
Dear John !

I picked out no 6, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 16. No 15 is always genuine (as I wrote), but there are

8 types, differing from each other by the outer colour and UV light differences. With an

orange crown it should be either Michel c or d, but if you want an exact type, you also must

focus on the UV colour of the shield frame.

Otherwise we can say:

No 7. It turns out to be a Leipzig reprint, one of the most common reprints.

No 8. A Hamburg reprint, as common as the Leipzig reprints

No 11. A Hamburg reprint, common

No 16. A Berlin 1. reprint, made in ca 100.000 pieces and therefore not a common reprint.

But the value is much below one of the 2 genuine types.

No 12. A genuine one, proved by the UV result. The BBP sign indicates with almost 100 %

security, but in my collection I have found a single stamp, which clealy was a reprint (wrong

perforation and wrong UV light result !). I also have seen reprints in fine Auctions in

Germany, nevertheless signed by specialists, but when I mention for the auction-house the

clear signs of reprints, the stamps have been withdrawn. UV light have been used after the 2.

World-war, but many signed stamps are so-called "old-signed" with a pen or pencil or an

un-officielle sign. Those will not give any security. BPP is a normally good, referring to a

well-known specialist, standing on a german specialist list.

I am glad to here, that you have found other genuines of no 16. Maybe you will be lucky with

your remaining examination of your last stamps. Good luck.

Remaining for you and me are only

No 6. Let me here your result of this stamp, referring to my earlier suggestions.

Best regards

Benny Andersen, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by johnrcrow »

Sorry 6 was a perf 14 x 14 so Hamburg.

John

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by johnrcrow »

Thank you again for excellent advice and your time. I will be back.

John

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by havana61m »

Hello to All Heligoland stamps collectors and experts,

Please kindly advise what is average market price for reprints?

Thanks&Regards,
havana61m

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

havana61m wrote:Hello to All Heligoland stamps collectors and experts,

Please kindly advise what is average market price for reprints?

Thanks&Regards,
havana61m
Dear havana61m !

It is not so simple to make an average market price for Heligoland reprints. The problems are, that there is a very great difference between reprints from Leipzig and Hamborg compared with reprints from Berlin.
Reprints of the Leipzig and Hamborg type were made in millions and the greater part is still "living" (not disappeared by burning, war, thrown away action).
The Berlin reprints were only produced in thousands. In fact som of the Berlin reprints were made in lesser amount than the genuine ones ! But also regarding Berlin reprints most of them are still "living".
If we regard the genuine ones, we must suppose, that the greater are "dead" because of simple throwing away with the envolope, wars, burnings and so on.
Also the reprints often were made in more editions (1., 2., 3.), this is very often seen regarding the Berlin reprints, and the amounts in each edition could vary rather much.

In summary we can say:
a. Leipzig and Hamborg reprints are cheap, I would say 4 EURO each.
b. Berlin reprints (in fact they are not common !!) in perfect condition and depending on the edition-number, could have the same price as a genuine one, if we are valueing from the rarity !
c. BUT: many collectors will not buy a reprint, the want the genuine type and only that !
Personally I have both genuines and reprints, and I can tell you, that only few of the reprints are of the Berlin type ! I have many Leipzig reprints, a little fewer Hamborg reprints.
d. My guess is, that an average price for a secure Berlin reprint will be about 10 EURO. But if you had one of the very seldom Berlin reprints (sometimes only 5000 were made), I think you could have many times more on a german auction.

Best regards Benny Andersen, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by havana61m »

Dear havana61m !

It is not so simple to make an average market price for Heligoland reprints. The problems are, that there is a very great difference between reprints from Leipzig and Hamborg compared with reprints from Berlin.
Reprints of the Leipzig and Hamborg type were made in millions and the greater part is still "living" (not disappeared by burning, war, thrown away action).
The Berlin reprints were only produced in thousands. In fact som of the Berlin reprints were made in lesser amount than the genuine ones ! But also regarding Berlin reprints most of them are still "living".
If we regard the genuine ones, we must suppose, that the greater are "dead" because of simple throwing away with the envolope, wars, burnings and so on.
Also the reprints often were made in more editions (1., 2., 3.), this is very often seen regarding the Berlin reprints, and the amounts in each edition could vary rather much.

In summary we can say:
a. Leipzig and Hamborg reprints are cheap, I would say 4 EURO each.
b. Berlin reprints (in fact they are not common !!) in perfect condition and depending on the edition-number, could have the same price as a genuine one, if we are valueing from the rarity !
c. BUT: many collectors will not buy a reprint, the want the genuine type and only that !
Personally I have both genuines and reprints, and I can tell you, that only few of the reprints are of the Berlin type ! I have many Leipzig reprints, a little fewer Hamborg reprints.
d. My guess is, that an average price for a secure Berlin reprint will be about 10 EURO. But if you had one of the very seldom Berlin reprints (sometimes only 5000 were made), I think you could have many times more on a german auction.

Best regards Benny Andersen, Denmark[/quote]

Dear Benny Andersen,
I thank you so much for the comprehensive and clear overview you gave to the subject question.
So, if I get a chance to buy Heligoland stamps in bulk, the price of 2-2,5$ per piece would be ok?
One more notice-question. Most of the stamps I've ever seen, mainly on auction sites, are in rather poor condition (torn, worn, fades and thins). Is it because of the paper quality?

Thanks & Kind regards,
Mirmahdi, Dubai

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

havana61m wrote:Dear havana61m !

It is not so simple to make an average market price for Heligoland reprints. The problems are, that there is a very great difference between reprints from Leipzig and Hamborg compared with reprints from Berlin.
Reprints of the Leipzig and Hamborg type were made in millions and the greater part is still "living" (not disappeared by burning, war, thrown away action).
The Berlin reprints were only produced in thousands. In fact som of the Berlin reprints were made in lesser amount than the genuine ones ! But also regarding Berlin reprints most of them are still "living".
If we regard the genuine ones, we must suppose, that the greater are "dead" because of simple throwing away with the envolope, wars, burnings and so on.
Also the reprints often were made in more editions (1., 2., 3.), this is very often seen regarding the Berlin reprints, and the amounts in each edition could vary rather much.

In summary we can say:
a. Leipzig and Hamborg reprints are cheap, I would say 4 EURO each.
b. Berlin reprints (in fact they are not common !!) in perfect condition and depending on the edition-number, could have the same price as a genuine one, if we are valueing from the rarity !
c. BUT: many collectors will not buy a reprint, the want the genuine type and only that !
Personally I have both genuines and reprints, and I can tell you, that only few of the reprints are of the Berlin type ! I have many Leipzig reprints, a little fewer Hamborg reprints.
d. My guess is, that an average price for a secure Berlin reprint will be about 10 EURO. But if you had one of the very seldom Berlin reprints (sometimes only 5000 were made), I think you could have many times more on a german auction.

Best regards Benny Andersen, Denmark
Dear Benny Andersen,
I thank you so much for the comprehensive and clear overview you gave to the subject question.
So, if I get a chance to buy Heligoland stamps in bulk, the price of 2-2,5$ per piece would be ok?
One more notice-question. Most of the stamps I've ever seen, mainly on auction sites, are in rather poor condition (torn, worn, fades and thins). Is it because of the paper quality?

Thanks & Kind regards,
Mirmahdi, Dubai[/quote]

Dear Mirmahdi !

I am glad to be able to help you. Heligoland is a funny, interesting, exiting collection area, it is so small, that you con over-vue it. For me as a dane it is especially interesting, because the island was danish till about 1815, since it has belonged to both England and Germany, now it for long has been german.
Regarding your two questions:
a. a price of 2-2,5 EURO is OK for a stamp without tearings and thinness and with fine perforation or roullation.
b. the bad conditions, we find in many Heligoland stamps, are not because of bad paper, but
because of bad handling of the stamps from lesser serious people than you and me. Only a few Heligoland stamps have a "loose" sort of paper, but it is not the reason for the average bad conditions.

Best regards from Benny Andersen, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by havana61m »

bennyandersen wrote:
havana61m wrote:Dear havana61m !
Dear Mirmahdi !

I am glad to be able to help you. Heligoland is a funny, interesting, exiting collection area, it is so small, that you con over-vue it. For me as a dane it is especially interesting, because the island was danish till about 1815, since it has belonged to both England and Germany, now it for long has been german.
Regarding your two questions:
a. a price of 2-2,5 EURO is OK for a stamp without tearings and thinness and with fine perforation or roullation.
b. the bad conditions, we find in many Heligoland stamps, are not because of bad paper, but
because of bad handling of the stamps from lesser serious people than you and me. Only a few Heligoland stamps have a "loose" sort of paper, but it is not the reason for the average bad conditions.

Best regards from Benny Andersen, Denmark
Hi Benny,

Most grateful for your advice and info. Have gladly learned interesting facts about Heligoland stamps.
By the way, I'm from Uzbekistan (former USSR). Once you'll get any questions re. post stamps of Russia, Soviet Union, former Soviet Republics, I would be glad to assist. I'm not an expert, but can provide some certain info on the subject.

Thanks & Kind regards,
Mirmahdi

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

havana61m wrote:
bennyandersen wrote:
havana61m wrote:Dear havana61m !
Dear Mirmahdi !

I am glad to be able to help you. Heligoland is a funny, interesting, exiting collection area, it is so small, that you con over-vue it. For me as a dane it is especially interesting, because the island was danish till about 1815, since it has belonged to both England and Germany, now it for long has been german.
Regarding your two questions:
a. a price of 2-2,5 EURO is OK for a stamp without tearings and thinness and with fine perforation or roullation.
b. the bad conditions, we find in many Heligoland stamps, are not because of bad paper, but
because of bad handling of the stamps from lesser serious people than you and me. Only a few Heligoland stamps have a "loose" sort of paper, but it is not the reason for the average bad conditions.

Best regards from Benny Andersen, Denmark
Hi Benny,

Most grateful for your advice and info. Have gladly learned interesting facts about Heligoland stamps.
By the way, I'm from Uzbekistan (former USSR). Once you'll get any questions re. post stamps of Russia, Soviet Union, former Soviet Republics, I would be glad to assist. I'm not an expert, but can provide some certain info on the subject.

Thanks & Kind regards,
Mirmahdi
Dear Mirmahdi !
Thank you for your beautiful words. I will have in mind your offer about russian and former russian republic stamps. Have a nice time.
Best regards from
Benny Andersen, Denmark

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Heligoland Shield Identification help please

Post by speak »

can someone help identify which one this is? its condition is not that great but wondering if it is used or unused.
thank you

Image

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Global Administrator »

VERY fuzzy, blurry scan, but despite that, someone may be able to assist.

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Re: Heligoland Shield Identification help please

Post by bennyandersen »

speak wrote:can someone help identify which one this is? its condition is not that great but wondering if it is used or unused.
thank you

Image
Dear Speak.

Your primary question is, whether the stamp is unused or used. It is for sure, that it is used. No Heligoland annullations have a look going in the direction of the black/gray configurations on your stamp.

I am sorry to tell you, that we are dealing with a thin film of dirt on the stamp.

You do not ask, if the stamp is genuine or a reprint. Therefore I suppose, that you have no doubts about that.

Best regards

Benny Andersen

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Alan63 »

Hi everyone,
Came across this issue tonight and got excited when I saw the Scott's catalogue listing for used #14's. While this particular stamp isn't pristine and the gum side is in pretty rough shape, I'd sure like to know if it's a reprint or forgery or an original issue. I have no experience with Heligoland. Are these scans enough to narrow down even a little bit? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The 2 images could not be recovered

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Hey Alan63 !

Go on with Heligoland ! It is a little, but funny and exciting collection-area.
Here is the result of the jury:

a. This stamp exists in four types: an original, a Hamburg reprint, a Leipzig reprint and a Berlin reprint. There were made 300.000 of the originals, in all 400.000 of the Berlin reprint (counted i two types), and about 1 million of both the Hamburg and Leipzig reprint.

When I just look at the stamp, I can say for sure: The annulation is false !! And therefore the value is low. But it is funny to find out, which type we are dealing with, and it is very easy regarding this stamp.

b. The perforation have large holes, therefore it is not a Leipzig reprint (which has small holes).

c. If the perforation is 14 x 14, we are dealing with a Hamburg reprint. Be careful with the measuring !

d. If the perforation is 13 1/2 x 14 1/4 exact, it can be an original or a Berlin reprint. The coloration could indicate both, therefore you must examine with UV-light (I most use long waves, but short waves are ok). With UV it is simple: If the red color turns violet , it is an original, all other colors (normally orange variations) are reprints.

If I should guess just by looking at the stamp, I would say: a Hamburg reprint, but ....

Let me here your result.

Best regards from

Benny Andersen

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Alan63 »

Thanks for the info Benny!

I checked just now and the perforations are a solid 14 x 14, so it's a Hamburg reprint.
You say the annulation is false? Do you mean that the cancel is a forgery?
I'd be interested in how you can tell if it doesn't require too much effort from you.

I did check online and found Fritz Wagner's site where he lists the cancel types.
http://www.fritzwagner.com/helgoland/cancels/helgoland_cancels.html

I appreciate the response. This forum has yet to fail me.

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear Alan63 !

It is funny, interesting and very satisfactory (!!) for me to hear, that it was a reprint of the Hamburg type ! That was my first guess and does assure, that experience is almost as good as fine technics in most cases !

I have collected Heligoland for many years. And I am glad to be able to help other collectors, new ones or trained ones. As I said earlier: Go for it.

Regarding the annulation (the cancel): No Heligoland stamp will be accepted cancelled correctly by an expert, if it is not either

a. a. written HELGOLAND cancellation (two types are available)

or

b. a cancellation within written Heligoland and date (day and month)

or

c. a special box-cancellation

or

d. very rare a Hamburg-cancellation

And even if those 4 conditions are ok, it is necessary to look very carefully at the stamp.

Also forgeries are found among those 4 possibilities !

Our stamp is cancelled poorly and without any sign to give us a chance to establish anything. Therefore no expert at all would accept it as genuine. Furthermore the cancellation is made on a stamp, produced after the production of the genuine stamp. All in all the cancellation is a forgery.

I hope this answer is sufficient, otherwise you can ask me again.

Best regards

Benny Andersen

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by LJG »

Heligoland Experts!

This one shouldn't be too hard :)

I have the following stand which instead of being expertise, has the word Neudruck with a red cross imprinted on the reverse. I understand that this is a reprint. What I'm hoping someone can assist me with (Benny!) is from which reprint it is. I don't have a UV light so can't help there.

The stamp is in good condition, with mostly full gum.
Image
Image
Hoping someone can assist!

Appreciated,

Luke

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear Luke !

It is a nice stamp, even being a reprint. This type of stamp has 5 reprint-types in all:

a. 2 Berlin reprints
b. 3 Hamburg reprints

Let us start from behind:

Ad b. All Hamburg reprints have the perforation 14 x 14. I have counted the perforation-holes to be 13 on the small sides, horizontally, of the stamp. If it was a Hamburg reprint, the perforation-holes ought to be 14. Therefore it must be a Berlin reprint ! I feel sure, but for you to be sure, make a correct measurement by your perforation-measure (I guess you have one).

Therefore we go to

Ad a. The clearly visible differences between the 1. Berlin reprint from 1880 (100.000 pieces made) and the 2. Berlin reprint from 1885 (200.000 pieces made) is seen by comparing THE COLOR OF THE SHIELD FRAME. The shield frame of the 1. print is a sort of BROWNISH ORANGE (AS IN YOUR STAMP !), while the frame color in the 2. reprint is clearly PALE YELLOW.

Conclusion: We should be dealing with a 1. Berlin reprint made in 100.000 pieces. Not bad ! Only the Hamburg and Leipzig reprints (not for this type) are made in millions and therefore rather common.

Let me from you, if the perforation should turn out to be 14 x 14 (I would be rather surprised !).

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

I forgot my name !

Best regards from
Benny Andersen

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by LJG »

Thankyou so much Benny. I measured with a perforation gauge and it measures 13.5 x 13.5 - definitely not 14 x 14!

Yes, although it is a nice reprint, I'd much prefer to have an original issue.

One further question, do you know who would have been behind expertising the same using the red cross indicated with the Neudruck inscription on the reverse?

Appreciate having you on this board to help out with these stamps.

Cheers,

Luke

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

LJG wrote:Thankyou so much Benny. I measured with a perforation gauge and it measures 13.5 x 13.5 - definitely not 14 x 14!

Yes, although it is a nice reprint, I'd much prefer to have an original issue.

One further question, do you know who would have been behind expertising the same using the red cross indicated with the Neudruck inscription on the reverse?

Appreciate having you on this board to help out with these stamps.

Cheers,

Luke
Dear Luke !

Thanks for your nice words about me ! I am glad, that my "guessing" was right.

Referring to your thoughts about "NEUDRUCK" and the "cross-sign":
Normally it is what we call
"a private owner-sign". Some private collectors have practically the same knowledge (and I would say some even more !) about stamps from some countries or often small regions than even the so-called experts.
Those collectors often have some private signs without names, for instance the cross, but some of them even make a real printed sign with a shortness of their name. If an expert will indicate "reprint", they normally just sign with a "ND" on the back of the stamp. If a private owner-expert will indicate "reprint", he often will write the total word, and if in Germany of course "NEUDRUCK".
Of course a private sign is not as good as an expert sign, but I have some stamps with private signs, which are correct signed (in my opinion !), and I have met stamps sign by experts, and the expert was wrong !!
If you really want to study Helgoland stamps, BPP-signs, "Alt-prüfung" (private signs before UV-examination got normal), then start with "Philasearch auctions", search f.ex. Helgoland, it is very interesting to see the stamps and the several signations from BPP-members and "Alt-prüfer". Helgoland is a small, but very interesting collecting-area, ESPECIALLY !! because we are dealing with as well genuine as not-genuine stamps.

It was much about a little thing, I hope not too much.

Best regards from
Benny

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Remco Mouthaan »

Hello,

As an newbie on this forum, and with stamps in general, i would like to ask
if these 2 Heligoland stamps are maybe original or a reprint.

Unfortunatly is the back of the stamps not so nice, still lots of gum, but looks
like they were taken out of some album a bit to harsh.

Thanks in advance,

Picture of Stamp 1.

Image

Picture of the back of Stamp 1.

Image

Picture of Stamp 2.

Image

Picture of the back of Stamp 2.

Image

Regards,

Remco

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear Remco !

Let us start with stamp nr 2: 1/4 Schilling, Michel nr 8 a, b or c, or a reprint !

A. The perforation counted by holes horizontally are 13, the holes are normal, not small.
This means, that that it is not a Leipzig reprint (small holes) and not a Hamburg reprint (perforation 14).

Remaining we now have either a genuine one or a Berlin-reprint. We go on with

B. The genuine ones a and b have the classic Heligoland woven, quadrilled paper, rather thick paper-type, while c has a normal paper, rather thin, and without !! woven quadrilles !!

Those quadrills in the paper are easily seen, if you look at the stamp from behind and place it close to any lamp. You can compare with any stamp from your own country.
Furthermore type a and b have green color in the shield, which goes to pale yellow green, while type c have a green color going to dark yellow green.

My guess is, that we are dealing with
a genuine type Michel 8 c, that is NORMAL, not woven paper
made in the amount of 100.000 pieces and one of the commonest af the genuine Heligoland stamps !

But: Maybe it is one of 3 Berlin reprints ? NO ! The hair-knot behind the neck is rounded
(called head-type I) in the genuine type of this stamp (which we have here), but like a screw-driver (called type II) in the reprint type of this stamp.

Conclusion: A genuine stamp, probably type 8 c (if normal paper, if woven paper type 8 a or be, and we will go on with UV-test).

We go to stamp 1.

A. The perforation holes are 13 horizontally and normal holes, therefore Leipzig and Hamburg reprints are out-ruled at once.

Remaining we have the genuine one Michel nr 11 or 2 Berlin reprints. If you want to use an UV-examination, you will see a dramatic difference between the genuine one and both the reprints !! In UV the red frame-color will turn VIOLET in the genuine one, but ORANGE in the 2 reprint-types !

But in this case you can just look at the color of the stamp to have a solution.
A genuine one has a dark lilac carmine frame and a dark green shield.
A Berlin reprint nr 1 has a bright rose frame and a green/deep green shield.
A Berlin reprint nr 2 has a flesh color going to almost pink frame and a bluish green shield.

The frame are not dark lilac carmine, so it is not a genuine one.

I would say, that we are dealing with a
Berlin reprint nr 2 from 1882, made in 100.000 pieces
In UV this type will turn orange in the frame and blackish-green in the shield. Reprint nr 1 will turn total black in the shield.

This was much for two stamps, but I hope you have learned something and have not fallen asleep !

If you come to another result after my instructions, then let me here.

Best regards
Benny, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Remco Mouthaan »

Benny, great reading and i did not fall asleep :).

Thanks for all the explanation, there is an uv light over here, so i will have a go at them this
week and will let you know what i see.

To bad that the back of them is not so nice, that will probably kill any left value, but ok i am very
happy with the information i got from you!!!

At first i did not want to post the third stamp, because it is ready for the bin.
But now you just made me curious, so maybe you will have a go at this one also..?

Many thanks again, and all the best regards from the netherlands.

Remco

picture stamp 3, well whats left of it.

Image

picture 2, back of the disaster

Image

Thanks again,

Remco

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear Remco !

Thank you for your words. We go on to

Stamp nr 3: In a way this is easier than the 2 other stamps. We take it systematically.

A. I count the perforation horizontally to 13. Normal perforation holes. Therefore: Leipzig and Hamburg reprints are out of the question.

Back we only have a genuine one and one reprint type from Berlin. That makes it much easier than with stamp nr 1 and 2.

We can loose the problem both by looking at

B. The color of the stamp and/or
C. By UV

Ad B: The shield-color of a genuine one is dark lilac carmine and more important: The frame is dark green AS WE HAVE HERE !

The Berlin reprint have a carmine red shield, that means brighter than the original´s dark color, but more important: The frame are bright green, clearly brighter than the original´s.

Conclusion: We are dealing with a genuine one, Michel nr 12, made in 200.000 pieces and not rare in un-used type, but very rare in cancellated type !

But you should try to put the under UV-light. The color difference between a genuine one and a reprint is dramatic ! The genuine one have still almost the same color (about red violet), but the reprint goes to bright orange !

You can use the UV-examination to test me !

Let me here, if I am wrong !

Best regards
Benny, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Remco Mouthaan »

Uv time...

Will not say a word before you see the pictures, i took them with an angle, because they are
laying under the light :).

Picture 1.

Image

Picture 2.

Image

Picture 3.

Image

Thank you again for all the info!!

Remco

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear Remco !

What marvelous UV-pictures you show me and other collectors ! Now it is exciting to know, whether I was wrong or right about my conclusions !

Stamp nr 1: My guess was a Berlin reprint, probably print nr 1 but BEFORE the UV-examination !
CONGRATULATION ! The UV-picture s
hows a violet frame and a greenish black shield. This means a genuine type, Michel nr 11 !
The stamp is made in the amount of 300.000 pieces, in fact more than the Berlin reprints !

But genuine and this shows, how important UV-light can be !

If it was a Berlin reprint (nr 1 or 2) the frame would be seen orange !

But I can bare my failure ! I would at once have used the UV-light with myself, but it is very important to try to come to an solution by studying the stamp with our hands and eyes, often it will be enough !

Stamp nr 2: My guess was a genuine one, Michel 8 c.
CONGRATULATION to me and to you! The UV-light shows a black shield corresponding to nr 8 c.

Stamp nr 3: My guess was a genuine one, Michel nr 12.
CONGRATULATION to me and you ! The UV-light shows a red violet color corresponding to
Michel nr 8, genuine.

That was the total conclusion. You can be content with the result ! It is not normal for a collector to have 3 genuine Heligoland stamps out of only 3 pieces !

Best regards from
Benny, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

A correction:

Stamp nr 3, the third line: Of course I mean "Michel nr 12, genuine", not Michel nr 8.

Sorry.

Regards Benny

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Remco Mouthaan »

Benny, you are the man.

Indeed happy with the results, but it pleased me
more that you came in to assist. All i had to do is put them under the light. Many many thanks!!

To bad that number 3 is so badly damaged. Now
it is original but what a waste of such a nice stamp.

3 out of 3 is not bad indeed though ;).

Should i keep number 3 also, dont know a thing about the value of these stamps to be honest.

Thanks again and wishing you all the best.

Remco

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Remco Mouthaan wrote:Benny, you are the man.

Indeed happy with the results, but it pleased me
more that you came in to assist. All i had to do is put them under the light. Many many thanks!!

To bad that number 3 is so badly damaged. Now
it is original but what a waste of such a nice stamp.

3 out of 3 is not bad indeed though ;).

Should i keep number 3 also, dont know a thing about the value of these stamps to be honest.

Thanks again and wishing you all the best.

Remco
Dear Remco.
A last in-put.
The value of the stamps recording to Michel catalog 2013, stamps with original gum (like yours), hinged (like yours) and normal average perforation (2 of your stamps as far as I remember) are:

Nr 8c 22,- EUR
Nr 11 12,- EUR
NR 12 (the clearly defect one) 14,-EUR

But do not throw away the very defect stamp. You can use it like a piece to compare with another stamp, you might have the luck to get in your hands.

Best regards
Benny

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Remco Mouthaan »

:), thanks for the last reply.

You have been very helpfull, i will keep the third damaged one, if i am correct there should
be some more here. Will show them when i found them, and if you are willing to take a look at them, then yes please.

Regards and all the best wishes from holland.

Remco

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by VFND55 »

Great discussion on this topic. I do not know much about these stamps. I've read the other posts but I need help checking for genuine stamps and cancels on the following two beat up stamps. Thank you.

1. Heligoland ½ schilling, measures 13.5 x 14.3 (under UV - violet frame)
Image

2. Heligoland ¾ schilling, measures 13.6 x 14.25 (under UV - violet frame)
Image

Sorry I can't get the back pics of the stamps, internet traffic is bad right now, I keep losing my photobucket page.

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear VFND55:

You have already made the "rough" word: The the perforation measures are about 13 1/2 x
14 1/4 with normal perforation holes. That means: We can only deal with

either genuine stamps or
Berlin reprints (3 of them).

Let us start with stamp nr 2, 3/4 Schilling:

a. The most important thing is the PAPER ! A genuine one has the characteristic speciel Heligoland paper consisting of and build by small quadrilles, very easily seen if you take the stam close to any lampe. You can compare with any stamp from your own country.

If it shows the quadrille-paper, it is an original Michel nr 9, 50.000 pieces produced

You could also use UV, but with this stamp it the GREEN color, that has interest ! The green color will REMAIN in a greenish color, normally going to darker olive green with a little nist of gray.

The 3 Berlin reprints go all to black or grayish-black in the green color, except for reprint nr 2, which goes to greenish-gray, BUT REPRINT NR " IS EXTREMELY RARE (only produced in 5.000 pieces), SO WE CAN FORGET THIS REPRINT !

b. If not quadrille paper, it is one af 3 Berlin reprints from 1875-1884. Reprint nr 1 made in 75.000 pieces, nr 2 can we forget, nr 3 in 20.000 pieces.

MY GUESS: An original Michel nr 9, VERY RARE in cancelled version !
BUT: I am sorry to tell you, that the cancellation never would be taken as genuine. It is a forgery. The weak seen characters in Heligoland are poorly printed.

So: a genuine stamp with an un-genuine cancellation.

Stamp nr 1: NOW WE MUST WORK !

a. There are 8 (!! from type a to type h) genuine types of this stamp, and

b. 3 Berlin reprints (but Berlin reprint nr 2 are extremely rare as for the stamp above, and we can forget Berlin nr 2).

c. There are 6 genuine ones made of NORMAL paper, and 2 genuine ones made of QUADRILLE paper.

Therefore: Test the paper of the stamp with a simpel lampe. If the paper is quadrille, it is for sure a genuine one. If normal paper it can be either one of the 6 genuines or one of the 2 reprints.

Before we go on, let me hear the result of the PAPER-TEST.

But: I am sorre to tell you, that the cancellation is FALSE ! Again, the characters of Heligoland are badly made and 2 cancellations one a stamp from this country are EXTREMELY rare.

My preliminary guess is a genuine stamp Michel nr 6 h, which are the commonest one un-used (as this was before the forgery !).

But we will see !

Despite of the false cancellations: Keep the stamps. They are not common !

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

I forgot: Greetings from Benny, Denmark

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by VFND55 »

Thanks Benny for your reply. I was able to scan the backs of the two stamps and access photobucket without any problems today.

I did not see any quadrilles on the back. You stated "normal" paper as a possible but I am not sure what you mean by normal paper (and no, I did not write on the back of these stamps).

Using the UV on the ¾ Schilling, the green looks more like grayish black and not an olive green.

1. Heligoland ½ Schilling back
Image

2. Heligoland ¾ Schilling back
Image

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Dear VFND55:

As I understand, NONE of the stamps have quadrille paper. I trust you. I do not think, you would be doubtful, if you were dealing with quadrille paper.
Therefore we can conclude:

Ad stamp nr 1, 1/2 schilling: It is not among the 2 genuine stamp Michel nr 6 g to 6 h, which both are made of quadrille paper. It can be either

genuine Michel nr 6 a to 6 f (!! MANY POSSIBILITIES)
or
reprint Berlin, 1. print or 3. print.

We must examine the paper again, it can give an indication, but not give a secure solution !

The GENUINE ones from nr a to f have a rather thick soft woven paper, a little yellowish-like colour, while the BERLIN REPRINTS have white paper.

But now we can gain much by using UV light: If the stamp in UV light are BLACK + VIOLET or GRAY GREEN + ORANGE RED, it is one of the 2 Berlin reprints.
If none of those combinations, we are dealing with a genuine one among a to f.
Let me hear your result.

Ad nr 2, 3/4 schilling: With no quadrille paper, it can not be genuine.
It is either Berlin reprint 1. or 3. edition.

The UV test will give us the answer:
If GRAYISH BLACK + VIOLET RED, it is print nr 1,
if BLACK + VIOLET RED, it is print nr 3.

Let me hear your result.

You shall know, that stamp nr 1 (1/2 schilling) is among the WORST Heligoland stamps to examine ! It is of course because of the many sub-types of the stamp and added several reprint-types.

So do not loose your temper !

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by VFND55 »

You must be an engineer and I would bet an electrical engineer. Your stamp identification process is very thorough. Again, thank you for your help.

Both stamps did not show any quadrilles. The paper looks like yellow wove to me on both stamps.

1. Heligoland ½ Schilling UV shows grey green + violet red, so we are dealing with a genuine one, a - f but which one?

2. Heligoland ¾ Schilling UV shows greyish black + violet red, so this stamp is Berlin reprint #1?

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

VFND55 wrote:You must be an engineer and I would bet an electrical engineer. Your stamp identification process is very thorough. Again, thank you for your help.

Both stamps did not show any quadrilles. The paper looks like yellow wove to me on both stamps.

1. Heligoland ½ Schilling UV shows grey green + violet red, so we are dealing with a genuine one, a - f but which one?

2. Heligoland ¾ Schilling UV shows greyish black + violet red, so this stamp is Berlin reprint #1?
Dear VFND55 !

Ad 1. UV gray green + red violet corresponds to Michel nr 6 f, made in 10.000 pieces.
In good condition un-cancelled without gum price 380,- EUR, in good condition with a genuine cancellation price 600,- EUR.
A rather rare stamp, but unfortynately with a false cancellation and a greater leakage.
But keep it !

Ad 2. UV grayish black + violet red corresponds to Berlin reprint nr 1 from 1875, 75.000 pieces. Not the commonest of the reprints. But false cancellation.
Keep it, you can use to compare with other Heligoland stamps, you might have in the future.

Best greetings from
Benny, Denmark

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VFND55
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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by VFND55 »

Thanks Benny for taking the time to review my stamps. I have other Heligoland stamps but will try to use your information from these discussions to identify them. If I have anymore questions I will post them here. Your help is appreciated.

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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by Goldenhawk »

I've read many of the posts here about Heligoland stamps.

In a old album I just purchased for $25 US there are several of these stamps. When I looked them up in the Scott catalogue many have high cat values.

I entered 5 faulty stamps in a circuit, offering them at 5-10% of cat depending on condition, as space fillers.

I have not checked the others as genuine or reprints, as I didn't even know about the forgery/reprint possibility until reading the posts here.

Let's say they're preprints. How should I value them?

If they happen to be genuine (based on the quadrille paper, or other factors I don't have knowledge of) what is the actual present market value, since everyone here feels the listed value is unrealistic?
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Re: Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forge

Post by bennyandersen »

Goldenhawk wrote:I've read many of the posts here about Heligoland stamps.

In a old album I just purchased for $25 US there are several of these stamps. When I looked them up in the Scott catalogue many have high cat values.

I entered 5 faulty stamps in a circuit, offering them at 5-10% of cat depending on condition, as space fillers.

I have not checked the others as genuine or reprints, as I didn't even know about the forgery/reprint possibility until reading the posts here.

Let's say they're preprints. How should I value them?

If they happen to be genuine (based on the quadrille paper, or other factors I don't have knowledge of) what is the actual present market value, since everyone here feels the listed value is unrealistic?
Dear Goldenhawk !

It is not so easy to give a perfect answer on your question, and not at all in short, but I will try:

a. If we consider, that you have genuine stamps in average-good conditions, the price IN A STAMP-SHOP will be about 30-40 % of the catalogue price. If in PERFECT conditions the price will be 50-55 %, or maybe up to 70 %.

b. If the stamp are old-signed or BPP signed the price will be about 55-60 % for good conditions and 70 % for PERFECT conditions (they are rare ! among Heligoland stamps).

BUT:
c. Genuine stamps in good conditions (with or without signature) will often be sold in auctions for a 1/4-1/3 of the cat value, but REMEMBER to put on salary and other spences !
Go into the link "PHILASEARCH", choose auctions, choose countries, choose "Alt-Deutschland" or "Old german states", find Heligoland and you will always find a lot of genuine stamps from the first to the last produced.
If you go into the Philasearch side called "After-sale" (Nachverkauf), you can find stamps not sold, and they will be sold minus 10 %.
If you choose "Philasearch" and put the curser on "Shops" you will find many shops to sell Heligoland stamps and can see the prices.

d. Reprints are found in 3 types, called Hamburg, Leipzig or Berlin reprints.
Hamburg and Leipzig reprints are made in millions, and the prices will be between 5-8 EUR.
The Berlin reprints are different. Often they are produced in the same amounts as the genuine ones (25.000-200.000 each) and are NOT common ones ! BUT: they are normally not damaged or destroyed as the genuine ones, they are preserved, and therefore their prices can not match the genuine ones.
Normally a Berlin reprint will have a value between 15-35 EUR in good conditions.

Best regards
Benny, Denmark

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Are any of these Heligoland Stamps Genuine?

Post by moby »

Hi

I have acquired some Heligoland stamps in an German States lot recently and I am having trouble determining which ones might be genuine

I am pretty sure that Row 1 stamps 1,2 and 6 are Hamburg reprints along with Row 2 stamps 1,3,5 and 6

Any help would be much appreciated

Cheers

Mike
aka moby

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