Heligoland stamps. Discussion of reprints, fakes & forgeries

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Re: Help required to determine authenticity of Heligoland stamps

Post by skilo54 »

Thanks Larry!
I measured the perfs on the 3 pfg arms and it reads 14 perf. So looks like I have a nice selection of reprints :lol: :lol:

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Re: Help required to determine authenticity of Heligoland stamps

Post by Brummie »

Just to compare, what would the reprints be worth? And the value if they weren't reprints? Just a rough guess will do :wink:

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Re: Help required to determine authenticity of Heligoland stamps

Post by albumweeder »

Brummie wrote:Just to compare, what would the reprints be worth? And the value if they weren't reprints? Just a rough guess will do :wink:
The reprints seem to be routine Hamburg, 25p each £1 the lot if in good nick - a few reprints are better (some scarcer Berlin, imperfs, inverts, missing colours) but not a vast amount - up to £10 maybe for the really exotic.

I don't know genuine values - they ought to sell for a conventional discount off catalogue as the genuine of these values are not difficult to tell except for the 3pfg Arms - I doubt that anyone other than serious specialists would be confident enough to buy that without expertisation. Any German auction site should give you an idea of what the conventional discount is likely to be.

Sorry I can't be more helpful; if I buy genuine it is usually horrid damaged examples for comparison with my lovely duds!
Larry [a.k.a albumweeder]

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Re: Help required to determine authenticity of Heligoland stamps

Post by Brummie »

Thanks Larry, it just gives me an idea of value.

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Heligoland Postcard - Need help deciphering German handstamp

Post by manfaefife »

As the title says - This Heligoland Postcard has a handstamp alongside the postmark but I can't make out what it says.

Can someone have a quick look and advise me what the words are please.


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Re: Heligoland Postcard Need Help Deciphering German Handstamp

Post by hertsboy »

Quite odd!

It looks like "General Government for occupied polish ..... The Regional Commander of the Region". Bilgoraj is in fact a town in Poland!

Heligoland, though, is on the other side of Europe from Poland.

and note that the postmark is 1930 -- three years before the Nazis came to Government in Germany and six years before they invade Poland!

Nice little advertising cancel too - something like "Heligoland - Famous for curing Asthma, Bronchitis, ??? and other ?? "

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Re: Heligoland Postcard Need Help Deciphering German Handstamp

Post by europhil »

Generalgouvernement für die besetzten pölnischen Gebiete
Kreishauptmann des Kreises / Bilgoraj

In other words, an Nazi-era Dienststempel on a 1930 post card. Right!

A great many of these Dienststempel devices are in private hands and are
often used to create fabrications such as this. The German term is "Mache".

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Re: Heligoland Postcard Need Help Deciphering German Handsta

Post by manfaefife »

Must admit the 1930 postmark was what threw me as well, I Just couldn't work out how the handstamp could be on that card at that time. Here is the card in full not that it will help with the handstamp.
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Re: Heligoland Postcard Need Help Deciphering German Handstamp

Post by doug2222usa »

I sure can't read the postal address; first I thought it was
sent to Aunus (in Russia). Now I'm not so sure.

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Re: Heligoland Postcard - Need help deciphering German handstamp

Post by flip138 »

The other disease curable by a stay in Heligoland is Skrofulöse (scrofula, tuberculosis).

Phil

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Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by stallzer »

If anyone can help with these, I don't have a catalog with this country.

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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by skilo54 »

Hi Stallzer, nice to meet you! 8) :lol:

Those stamps are a huge can of worms, with many forgeries existing! I cannot tell you if yours are authentic or not, another member might, but there are some great threads on these issues if you search for "Heligoland" on the Google search bar at the top of the page.

Here is one I started a while back:
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18045&hilit=+Heligoland

Sorry I cannot be of more help to you at this point. :)

Good Luck & Take it easy,

Skilo54

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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by stallzer »

I'm thinking the Heligoland cancellation / Postal mark would assure that they are not reprints, or am I just naive and new to this ? In addition these stamps were purchased prior to 1960, did they do reprints back then ?
Last edited by stallzer on 06 Sep 2010 17:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value

Post by DRC81 »

stallzer wrote:I'm thinking the Heligoland cancellation / Postal mark would assure that they are not reprints, or am I just naive and new to this ?
It would be a snap to get such a stamp from your local Office Depot ;)
David

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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by stallzer »

Are they worth finding out about ?
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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by GlenStephens »

If those cancels are genuine, the Pope is a Muslim!
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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by Agrome »

Hello,

2007 Michel catalog values

1/2 s 1200/2000 euro
1 s 250 euro
2 s 70 euro
6 s 340 euro

best regards
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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by stallzer »

They look the same as these ?

http://www.fritzwagner.com/helgoland/cancels/Heligoland_Long_Cancels_Enlarged.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see, they are NOT real, the " I " ?
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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by fromdownunder »

stallzer wrote:I'm thinking the Heligoland cancellation / Postal mark would assure that they are not reprints, or am I just naive and new to this ? In addition these stamps were purchased prior to 1960, did they do reprints back then ?
Emphasis mine.

Fakes/Reprints/Faked postal marks can be dated back to the late 19th Century when dealers would actually print stamps to satisfy collector demand. With anything along these lines, assume "faked/reprints" unless evidence suggests otherwise. Several years ago, i purchased a lot from Canada which had obviously not been added to in 80 odd years, and contained a number of Heligolands. The Canadian seller (a well known Auction Firm) did not even bother to mention them.

Unless of course you would like to purchase my Heligolands at 5% of Catalogue? 4%?

Norm
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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by Sark »

HI

We (the Brits) swopped Heligoland in the mouth of the River Elber in the North Sea with the Germans on 9th Aug 1890 for their interests in Zanzibar. Earlier (1875) when the currency changed a Berlin Samp Dealer bought most of the old stock, some original printing plates, a Postmark (or maybe two) and even I think some of the original paper. He carried on printing stamps for at least the next 16 years.

As a result some of these issues are very hard to tell apart, but many should be discribed as unauthorised Reprints rather than complete fakes.

The straight line cancels illustrated are fakes. The straight line cancells used in Hamburg to cancel early Heligoland mail were spelt HELGOLAND no I !


Hope this helps

Sark

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Re: Heligoland Stamp Cat # / value Help

Post by stallzer »

Sark wrote:HI



The straight line cancels illustrated are fakes. The straight line cancells used in Hamburg to cancel early Heligoland mail were spelt HELGOLAND no I !


Hope this helps

Sark
Yes, I found a site which showed the fakes with the letter "I", I would have never thought that I was sitting on some fakes, but oh well
there will be more surprises and disappointments I'm sure as I proceed through the sorting of my Foreign stamps.

Thanks for your replies.
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Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by stallzer »

Can someone tell me what these are ? Postal stationary ?

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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by admin »

Yep stationary cut out fakes which were very popular to collect in that era, and many albums had spaces for them. :D
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by Allanswood »

Cut outs of the newspaper wrappers they issued.
I've got a whole one somewhere.
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by Safi »

I remember one of stamp-collecting friends, out of enthusiasm for collecting Queen Victoria classics a few years back, actually bought a lot of Heligoland mint imperfs with the Queen Head for around $300 USD, and it turned out that most of them were cut-outs for which the dealer had actually claimed and given a combined catalogue value for the stamps running to almost a $1000. If one's not informed, it could cost a lot.

This is exactly why it's so very important to collect stamps with catalogues, handbooks and philatelic literature being an equally important and inevitable ingredient of our hobby!

Me and one more of the fellow collectors from our circle were so sorry that this friend did not consult or dig further before buying these, it seemed that he got so let down by what happened that he stopped collecting/buying for a year or two.

I've observed that even with perforated ones, there are a lot of reprints (as well as forgeries?). I have kept away from Heligoland all along my collecting except if it's a real throw-away price of a few dollars or if it's from the best sources that I've come to trust over a few years for their reputation, expertise and integrity!

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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by GlenStephens »

Safi wrote:
This is exactly why it's so very important to collect stamps with catalogues, handbooks and philatelic literature being an equally important and inevitable ingredient of our hobby!
Or, visit stampboards and use the SEARCH button for a few minutes!

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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by vikingeck »

Whilst Forgeries are the bane of our lives, but are seldom perfect, they usually have giveaway details which the collector can spot with experience.

However the "reprint" is another matter all together. It is worse !!Heligoland stamps were reprinted from the original plates in Germany in the years after the island ,briefly occupied by Britain in the early to mid 19th century, was returned to German control as part of a deal with Bismark's emerging Prussian empire.

This means that the reprints are virtually identical to the genuine. and for some values at least more than 90% on offer will be reprints made for the booming collector market around 1900 especially in Germany.It seems they were seen as acceptable facsimiles or spacefillers back then when demand outstripped supply. now finding them is a big disappointment and as has been mentioned, a big turn off!!

I have the same problem with the first issues of Samoa reprinted from the original plates!

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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by Spencer »

Lots of information is available about Heligoland and its reprints forgeries etc from

http://www.philatelicsannex.org/reference/Heligo.pdf

an excellent 106 page booklet which can be downloaded FOC
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by Safi »

Thanks Alex for more information on the Heligoland Reprints, and Spencer, that's an amazing booklet on Heligoland. I can't wait to start giving it a read, many thanks :)

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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by vikingeck »

Spencer, a great piece with most useful knowledge contained therein!
I've been looking for such for years !

Merci beaucoup! Danke sehr! Muchas gracias!
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by Spencer »

Another excellent source for Heligoland philately is the following website

http://www.fritzwagner.com/helgoland/helgoland_stamps_intro.html
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by stallzer »

If I'm reading the PDF correctly, it states that only 5000 of each wrapper were produced ? Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd printings of the wrappers ?
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by mikeg »

Stallzer- The PDF neglects to mention the reprints :oops:

Reprints were made as cut squares like yours, or as complete wrappers.

They were also made in strange colors, or on different papers.

The originals were typographic printings, some reprints were also, but the reprints done as cut squares are litho.

The strange thing is, even the original printings of 5000 are worth little unless used.

The only one who mentions these is Lemberger- but his book is in German.

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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by stallzer »

I know they are of little value if any, I have been seeing sets of these on Ebay going for anywhere between $2-$7, I'm wondering how one would tell the difference between reprints, 1st, 2nd or 3rd printings.
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Re: Heligoland question about unknown pieces

Post by mikeg »

I am going to take the easy way out :lol:

Here is the page from Lemberger on these.

Hopefully another stampboarder who is better at German can translate- while I get the basics, there is no way I can do a proper translation.

Image

It's confusing in German, so don't even think about using Google or whatever to translate :roll:

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Please help with Heligoland postage stamp

Post by questdave »

Dear Members,
I came across this stamp recently.I know that it is in bad condition.Is it worth my while keeping and investigating as i know it could be a rare item?
Sincerely,

Dave


Image

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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by Global Administrator »

Just merged 6 older threads on Heligoland into this single one. :mrgreen:

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Re: Please help with Heligoland postage stamp

Post by gavin-h »

questdave wrote:Dear Members,
I came across this stamp recently.I know that it is in bad condition.Is it worth my while keeping and investigating as i know it could be a rare item?
Sincerely,

Dave
Dave,

Very likely a reprint - and the condition is such that even if genuine value would be severely compromised.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

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Re: Please help with Heligoland postage stamp

Post by europhil »

questdave wrote:Dear Members,
I came across this stamp recently.I know that it is in bad condition.Is it worth my while keeping and investigating as i know it could be a rare item?
Sincerely,

Dave


Image
The system seems to have eaten my earlier response so I'll try again.

Looks like a Leipzig reprint to me.

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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by questdave »

Dear Members,

Many thanks for info and replies.

Dave

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Re: Heligoland stamps

Post by Sark »

Saston wrote:
tonyevans1 wrote: Hi, These are Postcard and PSE cut-outs and worth very little. Sorry - Tony
Sorry if this is slightly off topic but what does PSE stand for?
Saston Hi
This stands for Postal Stationery Envelope. The other similar initials seen are PSRE which is Postal Stationery Registered Envelope. Hope this helps.

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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by Spencer »

I have three used newspaper wrappers from Heligoland. I have read that many of the used wrappers have forged postmarks. Has anyone any more information on this? All these wrappers were printed letterpress.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by Old Yeti »

I notice that they are all postmarked for July almost the same date (22, 21 and 21) but years apart: 1887, 89, 90. Strange coincidence!

The "JY 21" on two of them are almost identical, yet years apart. No wear and tear at all, incredible!

Without knowing much about Heligoland; that alone would make me very suspicious. The addresses appear to be different, they 'went' to different places on different years; and yet they all came together bearing almost the same day date! Amazing!

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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by joelk »

Here are a few of mine. I'm not hopeful they are worth much (and some are in poor condition), but if someone wants to try to identify them, I would be most grateful. Thanks!



Image



Image



Image



Image



Image



Image

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Are any of these Heligoland stamps NOT reprints?

Post by deerlandstamps »

From the grandfather's collection. Knowing the reputation of these I'll assume they are reprints unless someone knowledgeable suggests otherwise. High-res scans are available if needed for any of them.

Image

The stamp on the far right (1/2 Schilling used) is on thicker, "spongier" paper than the others.
Image

Image

Image

Thanks in advance for the help!

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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by Global Administrator »

Well the one with the roller cancel will be fine I am sure. :lol:

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Re: Heligoland stamps : discussion of reprints and fakes

Post by nigelc »

The ½ schilling stamp has a postmark from the town of Geestemünde next to Bremerhaven.

The postmark is GEESTEMUENDE / ZOLLVEREIN / (dd) (mm) 72 * 12-1 N.
Nigel

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Heligoland stamps - are these worth selling?

Post by joelk »

I don't really know anything about Heligoland stamps, nor do I collect them.

I have a small selection here, and as discussed elsewhere on the forum, I would think that most, if not all, are reprints.

The condition is clearly mixed, with a couple of stamps having thins, obvious perf faults, and some without gum.

Would anyone have an idea of whether it makes sense to put them up for sale, and at what kind of price level? I don't really want to keep them.




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Krone und Adler
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Re: Heligoland stamps - are these worth selling?

Post by Krone und Adler »

Hi - I am not a specialist in Heligoland, but forgeries abound for the unwary. Hopefully a collector will come along shortly and help you with your query.

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tim

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Re: Heligoland stamps - are these worth selling?

Post by Global Administrator »

Joel like most dealers I lazily ASSUME Heligoland is fake when lotting material. :mrgreen:

Clearly I must be wrong in many instances, but I do not have the full day to go checking!

I just add a few bucks for them, and if I am wrong, well that is life. 8)

I reckon if you listed these "strictly as is" for $10-$15 someone will buy them. :)

My hunch is a couple of the used will be OK, but who knows. :mrgreen:

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