Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

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Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by SirWilliamOfPennyLot »

Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" stamp scans
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Can anybody help?

I recently purchased both these stamps as white wattles.

The stamp on the right is definitely a white wattles but the one on the left I am dubious about.

Is there a version of the white wattles that this stamp could be?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by Random »

The 2 "white dots" are clearer on the right stamp but I think I can see them on the left as well, hard to tell from the scan with my eyes

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Post by SirWilliamOfPennyLot »

Thanks for the reply random, yes it does have 2 dots. Does this mean it is definately a white wattles?
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Post by Guest »

I would say it is, but others with more knowledge can confirm.

As far as I know white wattles refers to the 2 white dote next to the margin on the left of the stamp.

Brusden White catalouge would have any variaties listed.

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Post by Random »

opps my login didn't work for the above
Having some problems connecting to day as I posted the above just after my first reply hours ago which has gone missing and have just redone it

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Post by ozstamps »

If I sold the LH stamp as a 'White Wattles' I would be arrested. And Tarred and Feathered.

And for good reason.

Let me guess - a "bargain" ebay purchase? ;)

Folks .. think about it for just a moment ... WHY do you suppose it is termed "WHITE WATTLES"?! :!: :!: :!:
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Post by ozstamps »

Great to see so many members using photobucket.com to prepare their images ... the biggest godsend for this Bulletin Board!
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Post by SirWilliamOfPennyLot »

ozstamps wrote:If I sold the LH stamp as a 'White Wattles' I would be arrested. And Tarred and Feathered.

And for good reason.

Let me guess - a "bargain" ebay purchase? ;)

Nope, very well known and respected Sydney stamp dealer.

I will contact him and I am sure he will rectify.
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Post by ozstamps »

Ha .. well do not mention me or my house will possibly get burnt down. :D
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Post by Lakatoi 4 »

LH stamp definitely not WW.

As Glen said: "Folks .. think about it for just a moment ... WHY do you suppose it is termed "WHITE WATTLES"?!

If you have a whole bunch of these to sort through, the washed out wattles (caused by ink stripping) should be separated straight away. Next look at the right "Postage" - the "ta" should be fully joined at the base if WW. If only partially joined it's a Die 1. The clincher is the 2 small breaks in the inner left hand frame line.

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Help needed with 3d blue wattles

Post by SirWilliamOfPennyLot »

Help please with this 3d blue KGV1. I am not sure which die it is.
I purchased as a white wattles but I have my doubts.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by The Pom »

Definitely NOT a White Wattles.

Too much shading in the wattles and leaves.
Ditto the King's face, especially his right ear.
T and A not properly joined.
Outline of the chin pretty solid.
Frame breaks at left not pronounced enough.

Looks like an ordinary Die I to me.
Last edited by The Pom on 24 May 2008 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by The Pom »

Should look like this:
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3d blue Die 1a ?

Post by SirWilliamOfPennyLot »

Thanks Pom for the response. I suspected that it wasn't a white wattle. I thought it may have been a variation of it.)Would I be right in say these 2 are Die 1a ?
regards
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Post by The Pom »

The tapered T strongly suggests Die Ia, but I'd need to see the whole stamp to be 100%
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Post by SirWilliamOfPennyLot »

The Pom wrote:The tapered T strongly suggests Die Ia, but I'd need to see the whole stamp to be 100%
Thanks again Pom, I won't annoy you anymore after this one.
Hope the pics are large enough, best I can do with digital microscope. If you need to see more of the stamp I will have to use scanner.
regards
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Post by Lakatoi 4 »

A KGVI "white wattles" variety. This clearly shows the markedly joined T & A as well as the completely white wattles of this printing. This stamp is on a registered cover from Queensland where most of the "white wattles" variety were issued:
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Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies - "White Wattles" scan

Post by Flying Tiger »

Could someone please post a scan of the KGVI 3d "White Wattles" stamp?

The illustrations in my Gibbons and ACSC catalogs are not that great.

As usual, Scott does not mention the stamp.

Thank you.
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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by Trent »

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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Flying Tiger hope this helps

Die I 'White Wattles', with its characteristic features of poorly defined wattle leaves in both corners, poor chin and ear definition, TA of POSTAGE joined and two tiny inner frame line breaks opposite upper chin and lower neck on the left hand side.
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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Die 1, a new ink formula was introduced which lessened the ink stripping, however the TA remained joined and the appearance still lacked definition.
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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Die 1A, each cliché was individually recut resulting in an inconsistently tapered T of POSTAGE on Die 1A stamps. The ink stripping was still an occasional problem.
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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Die II (Thick Paper), the Die received a major overhaul and was impressed onto new plates. This resulted in a satisfactory final image. Ink stripping still occurred occasionally.
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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Die II (Thin Paper), there was one printing on unsurfaced paper. The image has a darker appearance and the watermark is clearly visible when viewed from the back.
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Re: Scan of S.G. 168a "White Wattles" Wanted

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Die III, new perforating equipment was introduced which required a new master plate. A new Die was therefore engraved. Issues 1 to 5 are Perf 13.5 x 14 where as the 6th (Die III) was perforated at 14.75 x 14. The King's head is smaller and more of his right side epaulette is visible.
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Identifying the 5 Dies of the Australia 3d KGVI stamp

Post by PeterS »

As is my wont, I was browsing eBay and came across (probably for the hundredth time this year!) yet another misdescribed 3d Blue George VI definitive.


Claimed to be Die 1a, the most expensive version naturally!

This is the stamp;
Image
The description is:
Australia 1937 3d Die 1a (SG168b) Mint 140Pds

A mint example of the 3d die 1a, showing the separated TA and the break in chin line.

The stamp has rich color and hinged original gum. Fine. Gibbons £140.
Well, they seem to know what a Die 1a should look like but, as Clint Eastwood might say, that 'aint it! The stamp is a Die 1.

This is an example of a Die 1a
Image
In the next few posts we will explore the differences and how to properly identify Die 1, Die 1a, Die 2 (both papers) and Die 3.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

Now, blind Freddie should have been able to see that the T and the A of the right hand word, POSTAGE, were not clearly separated in the example in the previous post.

This stamp is an example of Die 1.
Image
Note that the T and the A are almost joined, there is the smallest of gaps between their bases. So, why isn't this a Die 1a? The critical identifier for Die 1a is that the foot of the T tapers away in Die 1a.

This was achieved by manually retouching every single cliche on the plates. Both the T and the A were touched up to improve the overall look.

Here is another example of a real Die 1a.
Image
Last edited by PeterS on 18 Nov 2010 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

The appearance of the Die Ia was still considered not to be up to scratch and so more work was done to produce a Die II. This involved re-engraving the letters and giving the King a more defined chin.
Image
The above example is on chalk surfaced (thick) paper. Stamps of this Die were also issued on unsurfaced (thin) paper - shown below.
Image
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by lakatoi lover »

Peter,

Great thread :!:

For someone who doesn't collect Australia, sorting these stamps has been a nightmare.

In the end I just gave up and put them all together in a stockbook. :(

Now I have a fighting chance of sorting them correctly. :D

Cheers

Bill

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

Finally, a completely new Die was prepared, Die III. This is based on the 1/4d value of the same design and is identified easiest by the fact that the epaulet on the King's right shoulder is longer, possible because the head is smaller than the earlier Dies.
Image
This stamp was only ever issued on unsurfaced paper and was replaced, in 1942, by the same stamp printed in brown (following imposition of war tax on 10th December 1941).

So, hopefully if you are looking to buy one of these 3d Blues you will remember to check carefully and not trust the description. Even if it is from a supposedly reputable and knowledgeable trader.

The seller of the previously shown, misdescribed, stamp was angloamericanappraisal, an eBay power seller who certainly should know better!
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

lakatoi lover wrote:Peter,

Great thread :!:

For someone who doesn't collect Australia, sorting these stamps has been a nightmare.

In the end I just gave up and put them all together in a stockbook. :(

Now I have a fighting chance of sorting them correctly. :D

Cheers

Bill
Bill, it's easy once you know the differences. What really annoys me is the fact that some sellers claim to know but either don't have a clue or are trying to rip off the potential buyer.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by lakatoi lover »

Peter,

As a complete novice with these stamps, do you have an example of the "white wattles"?

Cheers

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

lakatoi lover wrote:Peter,

As a complete novice with these stamps, do you have an example of the "white wattles"?

Cheers

Bill
Bill, no. What I will do is scan in the image from the ACSC tonight.

However, it is unmistakable and only exists for Die I. Although, just to confuse things, there is a similar variety of ink stripping (always less pronounced than the white wattles) for most of these.

The white wattles is very distinctive because the ink formula used was very prone to being wiped from the plate, by the doctor blade, after inking and before printing.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

Peter,

When I have a moment or two later on today I'll post up a scan of a white wattles (unless someone beats me to it). Its worth emphasising that ink stripping in varying degrees was a feature of many of the die 1 and 2s.

Now, when you've done with the KGVI 3d blues, how about a piece on how to differentiate between the die 1 and die 1a George V 3d blues? :idea: :)

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Peter,

When I have a moment or two later on today I'll post up a scan of a white wattles (unless someone beats me to it). Its worth emphasising that ink stripping in varying degrees was a feature of many of the die 1 and 2s.

Now, when you've done with the KGVI 3d blues, how about a piece on how to differentiate between the die 1 and die 1a George V 3d blues? :idea: :)

Clive
Clive, if you have an available scan that would be great. I couldn't put my hands on a white wattles when I scanned up the images above...I know they are somewhere!

Good idea on the 3d George V, sounds like a job for you!? :lol:
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

Probably something that needs to be stated here is that the Die 1, Die 1a and Die 2 stamps all derive from the same original master die.

Die 1a was an exercise in plate retouching and did not actually touch the Die at all, Die 2 used the same master die, with some work done to improve the appearance. Die 3 was the only other new, original Die created.

But, just like the Die 2 units of the 1d George V head, the idea that these stamps are all from different Dies has stuck and will always be used.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

Peter,

A KGVI 3d blue die 1 'white wattles', together with a 'normal' die 1 for comparison.
Image Image
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

A die 1a -
Image
The defining characteristic is the tapering vertical stroke of the 'T' in POSTAGE at right - compare with same letter in POSTAGE at left.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

I'll do that white wattles in higher resolution -
Image
If in doubt about whether a stamp is an authentic 'white wattles', a really good tell-tale are the two white dots in the left inner frame, one about opposite just under the king's bottom lip, and the other opposite the lower part of his left epaulette (as you look at the stamp).

Clive
Last edited by Clive on 18 Nov 2010 17:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

The 'normal' die 1 -
Image
Note the 'T' and 'A' of POSTAGE at right are almost touching at their base. The attempt to rectify this resulted in the taper of the 'T' in the die 1a.

Also note the wattles, especially at left, have more colouring and definition than the 'white wattles', as does the king's left ear.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

The stamp printer finally got it more or less right with the so-called die 2, printed on chalk-surfaced (thick) paper -
Image
The 'T' and 'A' of POSTAGE at right are now separated correctly i.e. not touching as in die 1 and not tapered as in die 1a, and the shading around the king's jaw and especially his chin is better defined.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

Having finally got the stamp about right, the printer then went and issued the die 2 on unsurfaced (thin) paper, and a poor-looking thing it is compared with its chalk-surfaced (thick) counterpart -
Image
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by lakatoi lover »

Peter / Clive,

This is a great thread to help all of us who struggle with the ID of these stamps. :D

Let's see how well I have learnt my lesson. :lol:

Are these identified correctly :?:

Die 1
Image
Die 1 White Wattles
Image
Die 1a
Image
Die 2
Image
Die 2 Ordinary Thin Paper (Bright Blue)
Image
Cheers

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

Bill,

Your 1a is, I think, a die 2.

Your die 2 thin paper is, I think, a die 2 thick.

Your last pic is a die 3.

Clive

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

To complete the set here is a die 3 -
Image
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Good topic with lots of helpful info. 8)

Just one additional point, a large number of the "White Wattles" turn up on Queensland covers (I have only 1 unfortunately) and as used stamps with Queensland cancels.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by selvedge »

clive willingham wrote:To complete the set here is a die 3 -
Image
Clive
This is the sort of knowledge I live for here on stamp boards.

But I have a question about Die 3. I note that the L and I in "Australia" seemed to be deformed in that there is no white shading on the bottom of the letters making them look disconnected.

Is this a way to pick a Die 3 or is it a known flaw?

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

selvedge wrote:
clive willingham wrote:To complete the set here is a die 3
Image
Clive
This is the sort of knowledge I live for here on stamp boards.

But I have a question about Die 3. I note that the L and I in "Australia" seemed to be deformed in that there is no white shading on the bottom of the letters making them look disconnected.

Is this a way to pick a Die 3 or is it a known flaw?
Did you read the whole thread? I described earlier that the Die II is identified by a longer epaulet on the King's right shoulder and the head is slightly smaller. Looks identical to the 1/4d value, which was the model for this die. :D
Peter
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Bill,

Your 1a is, I think, a die 2.

Your die 2 thin paper is, I think, a die 2 thick.

Your last pic is a die 3.

Clive
I agree.
Peter
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Die 1 "White Wattles"

BW190
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