Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

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Australia 1937-49 3d Blue Identification Help

Post by dj_claz »

Would someone be able to confirm which die this stamp is please. It doesn't seem as though the T and A are joined as in die 1 but from what I've read, if it was die 1a, the base of the T should be slanted?

Image
Image

Thanks

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Global Administrator »

Lots of clear tips above. :)
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by dj_claz »

Thanks as always for the steer to the right place. After a quick read through, Die 1 it is. Very interesting reading, especially on the white wattles.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by stallzer »

Pretty sure these are Die II but I question the upper right stamp. Is it a Die 1a or II ?


Image

Upper right stamp


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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Stallzer

This example below is a Die 1a. Note the tapered bottom of the right hand side the "T" where a cut was made to separate the "T" from the "A".

Yours is not tapered therefore is not Die 1a.
Image
Below is a something I copied from an earlier post by "reddies" to give you some assistance in identifying these little blue fellows.
Image
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Global Administrator »

Sorry guys it is on thin ordinary paper and CANNOT be a Die 1 or Die 1a!

Forget the diagrams. They must all be Die 2 THIN. Unless they have long epaulettes (which they do not) in which case they are Die III thin paper.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by stallzer »

I purchased the block on the assumption they were all die II but when I scanned it in the T did kind of look tapered.

Thanks.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Global Administrator »

Robert - yes on the THIN papers, one can see slight variances in the TA, but every stamp on every sheet must be all Die 2 THIN or Die 3 THIN - as in this superb block below I just listed up for $A80. The long Epaulettes on right hand side are the instant visual key on the Die 3, not any lettering differences. :idea:
Image
Australia 3d KGVI stamp Die 3 Thin ordinary paper.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

I recently entered the Brighton Philatelic Society one frame competitions with one on the KGVI 3d blue Die I, White Wattles & Die 1a. Many of the items displayed are on this thread.

I displayed each on fdc trying to avoid those with the 6d Kookaburra & 1/- Lyrebird. I went close to winning with the judges suggestion that I include some more of the scarcer type fdc cachets to improve the display.

Here is a recent addition & the question I ask is "Would this Die I advertising cover (fdc) improve the display?".
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

So we appear not to like that one, what about this Die I fdc?
Image

Hand typed cachet by Peter Stalley of Wide World Covers
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by DarrenK »

I prefer the first one to the second one but I'm not a judge!

I think because it is a commercial cover it represents the stamp in a more "legitimate" form.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by GregoryP »

I will put in a vote for the second one!

This is a very early cover to be addressed to Peter Stalley - his father Vernon, only began selling stamp packets and accessories in 1936, and I guess Peter was quite young at the time.

This cover would count as a predecessor to the Wide World covers that were produced by Peter Stalley (and Vernon) from February 1946 to the late 1950s.

Interesting cover.
Greg.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Thank you Darren & Gregory.

I said earlier I am trying not to put covers with other adhesives in this exhibit.

I am finding it difficult as the 6d Kookaburra & the 1/- Lyrebird were released on the same day. Am I worrying too much about this? How would you feel about the fit of these Die I fdcs?
Image
A scarce Rev A J Tippett fdc from Currie King Island.
Image
A scarce Alex Kufner fdc with a scarce Manchester Road cancel.
Image
A possibly unique "boomerang" fdc which has been to England & returned with GB adhesives.
I would appreciate your comments.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Ok so no votes for the ones in the previous post. How about this early Miller Bros?

Acquired recently on eBay, I note that this is the actual cover shown as Figure 7.1b on page 88 of Moore, Woolley & Pauer (MWP):
Image

Image
Saul & Maurice Miller, Saul was Israel Zelenko & Maurice was Mietek Zelenko, started making fdcs in 1938 with a rubber fdc stamp on their own commercial stationery.

However Saul had made a generic design, the one shown above, & used it for several issues in 1937. The one shown above is described as unique.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Global Administrator »

BigSaint wrote:
Image
A possibly unique "boomerang" fdc which has been to England & returned with GB adhesives.
Very unusual. Why the horrible fuzzy scan Brad .. this is your cover correct?
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Not sure, I will see if I can do a better one. :)
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by MJ's pet »

The Sun commerical FDC is a great looking item so I would include that.

The typewritten Staley FDC has a certain charm so I would include that too. :mrgreen:

At a club-level display you can include or exclude whatever you like. :|

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by The Pom »

I'd go for the Stalley cover over the Sun newspaper cover all day long. It's an early piece from an important & long-lasting FDC producing dynasty, and as such, has more philatelic importance.

I'd also have no great problems with covers with other stamps on. It illustrates the common philatelic practices of the day.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Glen,

Updated & uprated scans of this one posted earlier:
Image

Image
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Global Administrator »

A TON better Brad. :)
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

BigSaint wrote:I recently entered the Brighton Philatelic Society one frame competitions with one on the KGVI 3d blue Die I, White Wattles & Die 1a. Many of the items displayed are on this thread.

I displayed each on fdc trying to avoid those with the 6d Kookaburra & 1/- Lyrebird. I went close to winning with the judges suggestion that I include some more of the scarcer type fdc cachets to improve the display.

Here is a recent addition & the question I ask is "Would this Die I advertising cover (fdc) improve the display?".
Image
Brad :)
That one would get my vote all day every day. Simple, clean, nicely addressed, etc. with no handstamp, typed or written "FIRST DAY COVER" announcement.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Rob1956 »

Image
Die 1: "White Wattles" Two breaks in the inner left frame

Image
Die 1: "TA" pronouncedly joined at the foot

Image
Die 1A: Tapered "T"
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by GregoryP »

Rob1956,

Thanks, that is super clear.
Well done.

Greg.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

I bring this Die 1 over from the censored thread.

A censored Alex Kufner fdc, postmarked Hampton 2nd August 1937 & sent to the adjoining Melbourne suburb of Brighton East:
Image
Image
Image
Image
I thought this was strange as I did not think there was censorship in Australia in 1937 & why would mail sent from Hampton to Brighton East be censored :?:

I asked Brighton Philatelic Society member & international judge Charles Bromser who agreed it was highly unusual & referred to Richard Breckon, Australia Post Philatelic Archives.

Here is his reply:

Brad & Charles,

This censored 1937 FDC is a strange item. The WW2 censor markings didn’t exist in 1937, so what’s going on? Only one explanation comes to mind – the FDC was censored during the war!

Between 1939 and 1945, it’s possible this FDC was re-mailed under an outer cover to somebody probably residing overseas. If this happened the censor would have found a sealed FDC inside, which required examination to make sure that nothing dangerous was inside it. This sounds rather outlandish, but I can’t suggest anything else that’s a plausible explanation.

Kind Regards,

Richard Breckon
Team Leader, Philatelic Archives
Collector Services
Australia Post


What does everyone think. :?:

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by danyeung »

The bushfire auction of the 1937 Sesqui FDC with 3d Blue Die II made me look at this cover again and would like to receive comments.

I posted the cover before and thought the strip of 3d are Die 1a - didn't think of the possibility of Die II as the FDI of Die II in the catalogue is 1938.

However, while the first two 3d look like Die 1a, the last one looks like Die II.

Image

Image

First 3d
Image

Second & third 3d
Image

Third 3d
Image

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Dan

It's not a Die 1A & I don't believe it is a Die II. It believe it is a Die I like the one I on the "Small Crown" fdc I show below:
Image
Image
Image
I bought the Sesqui fdcs you refer to but they haven't arrived from Glen yet.

I will see if I can my scan larger like yours but I have to go out for a little while so I will do it when I return.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by danyeung »

Thanks Brad and will wait for your scan.

The T & A of the third stamp are not joined and the end of the A looks like being trimmed.

And it is a strip of 3. If the first two 3d are Die 1a, should all three of the same Die ?

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Dan

I have not been able to enlarge my scan & have it readable.

I hadn't realised you had a joined strip of three there (I should have), so I think your comment is correct. By the same token it cannot be a Die II.

I will need to go over my notes & this thread to confirm.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by danyeung »

lakatoi lover wrote:Peter / Clive,

This is a great thread to help all of us who struggle with the ID of these stamps. :D

Let's see how well I have learnt my lesson. :lol:

Are these identified correctly :?:

Die 1
Image
Die 1 White Wattles
Image
Die 1a
Image
Die 2
Image
Die 2 Ordinary Thin Paper (Bright Blue)
Image
Cheers

Bill

Hi Brad,

The leg of "A" next to "T" of the Die II stamps in this thread are not the same. Above thick paper 3d is curved but not straight as others. The third stamp on my cover looks similar to this one.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Dan

Clive's response on the first to the post you copied from page 1 of this thread.
Clive wrote:Bill,

Your 1a is, I think, a die 2.

Your die 2 thin paper is, I think, a die 2 thick.

Your last pic is a die 3.

Clive
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Dan

Die I & White Wattles can appear on the same sheet.

Die Ia is a different stamp to the Die I following repair to the original Die to separate the "T" & "A" in postage. Die I & Die Ia do not appear on the same sheet.

Die II was prepared later & therefore will not appear on the same sheet as a Die I & Die Ia.
BACK O BOURKE wrote:Die II (Thick Paper), the Die received a major overhaul and was impressed onto new plates. This resulted in a satisfactory final image. Ink stripping still occurred occasionally.
Image
BACK O BOURKE wrote:Die II (Thin Paper), there was one printing on unsurfaced paper. The image has a darker appearance and the watermark is clearly visible when viewed from the back.
Image
So your stamp cannot be a Die II. If you have a strip of 3 & the first 2 are Die Ia, then the 3rd stamp should also be Die Ia. I cannot explain why the "T" is not tapered & the "A" is "shaved". I have not seen that before.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by danyeung »

Hi Brad,

I am aware of Clive's comments. What I tried to point out is that Bill's Die II (4th from the top) has similar curved A as the third stamp on the cover.

I have similar understanding on Die 1, Die 1 white wattles, Die 1a & Die II as you but if only look at the third stamp, what die one would say it is ?

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Dan

When I first looked at it I thought it was a Die I & I tried to show what I thought was another example of a Die I that was not joined but my scanner was not up to the task.

When I realised the the 3 stamps were joined I changed my opinion & it has to be a Die Ia.

Despite you saying it looks like a Die II it cannot be that beast. :)
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by danyeung »

Hi Brad,

I agree it has to be Die la but then there are Die la that the "T" is not tapered.

Is there any other ways to tell the difference between Die la & Die II ?

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Hello Dan

On page one, of this thread, stampboarder "Back O'Bourke", who has recently returned to the board, explains the differences between the Die Is & IIs. His explanations should help you with the Die II.

Interestingly he says with the Die Ia, as it was hand cut there were variations in the tapering of the "T", which I believe is what you have in your example.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

A recent acquisition I found at Phoenix:
Image
Registered Postmaster General's Department OHMS fdc cancelled with Registered Melbourne cds
Image
to New Zealand postmarked on 2nd August 1937, being fdi for 6d Kookaburra, 1/- Lyrebird &
Image
KGVI 3d blue Die I.
Image
To New Zealand with Stamps Section GPO Melbourne Vic - R6 blue Registration Label.
Image
No backstamps on the reverse, just advertisement for ornamental telegrams.

Was the "Stamps Section" the forerunner of the Philatelic Bureau :?:
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

A recent acquisition I found on eBay:

Aust FDC 1937 - KGVI 3d, 6d, 1s.jpg
Registered Self Addressed Arthur Cocks & Co Ltd advertising cover with Registered Sydney cds
Aust FDC 1937 - KGVI 3d, 6d, 1s 1.jpg
to Sydney postmarked on 2nd August 1937, being fdi for 6d Kookaburra, 1/- Lyrebird &
Aust FDC 1937 - KGVI 3d, 6d, 1s 2.jpg
KGVI 3d blue Die I with Sydney C R6 Blue Registration Label
Aust FDC 1937 - KGVI 3d, 6d, 1s 3.jpg
Reverse.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Another recent acquisition found on eBay:


Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1  WW 1.jpg
1st Generic cachet FDC by JH Smyth of Sydney - KGVI 3d Blue Die I White Wattles
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 WW 2.jpg
Brisbane Q'Land machine slogan cancel - "Airmail saves Time" 2nd August 1937
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 WW 3.jpg
White Wattles

MWP tells us that this the first of two types of generic fdc used by Smyth from 2nd August 1937 to 1943. This one shows a very nice example of the "White Wattles".

I suspect that the added First Day Cover cachet in violet was added by the recipient. :D
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

Another recent acquisition this time from Stampboards via the Sheriff:
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 plus 5B.jpg
A letter inside gives no clue to the cachetmaker & the address is a single fronted cottage in a residential street.
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 plus 1.jpg
Registered fdc for KGVI 3d Blue Die I, 6d Kookaburra & 1/- Lyrebird stamps
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 plus 2.jpg
Postmarked Moonee Vale cds 2nd August 1937
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 plus 3.jpg
Moonee Vale Victoria Registration Label
Aust fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 plus 4.jpg
Kangaroo Cachet

Moonee Vale post office near Moonee Ponds & Moonee Valley Racecourse on the opposite side of the Tullamarine Freeway to them, on Melville Road.

The Kangaroo Cachet reminded me of these two covers:
Gower Stamp Den.jpg
Kangaroo Correspondence & Exchange Club - J M Gower Secretary - Seaton Park SA 1931
Aust 1932 Kangaroo - North Suburbs Rugby.jpg
Northern Suburbs Rugby League Football Club - Newcastle July 25, 1932


These cachets are identical but not identical to the cachet above, although very similar. One wonders if Gower changed Kangaroo design for whatever reason & maybe this is a Gower Stamp Den fdc :idea:
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by PhilipAdams »

Two small contributions to this thread.

The first is a Die III lower corner block with Ash imprint and perf pip.

There is, I think, some minor evidence of ink-stripping in the lower 2 rows.
IMG_20200719_0001.jpg
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The second is an Alex Kufner First Day Cover with the 1937 3d Blue Die I and a 1/- Lyrebird tied by Albury '2AU37' FDI datestamps.
IMG_20200719_0002.jpg
IMG_20200719_0003.jpg
Philip

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