Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by patg »

Thanks Brad. Doesn't hurt to have an independent confirmation. Found it in a stack of gone over pages.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by BigSaint »

patg wrote:Thanks Brad. Doesn't hurt to have an independent confirmation. Found it in a stack of gone over pages.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Full set of blues (Die 1 white wattles, Die 1, Die 1a, Die 2 thick, Die 2 thin, Die 3)

At least in Die 3 the designers straightened the King's lazy left eye.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Cooke_Harrison »

After reading this thread closely, I think that I can add some valuable information.

Forensically, Die 1 "White Wattles" and Die 1 are two different printings, both from the same unaltered Plate. Die 1a is this same Plate, but altered by the HAND retouching of each each cliche at the base of "T" of Postage at top right.

All three types were printed before the day of issue as evidenced by them all appearing on FDC.

There MUST be the "distinctive ink shade of Royal Blue" to be a genuine "White Wattles" printing, which was the first part of the print run.

It was found to be unsatifactory owing to poor printing not long after the printing began and the Ink formula was discarded. That is why it is so scarce.

The name White Wattles is historically entrenched but somewhat unfortunate and confusing.

I think it should be renamed "Royal Blue".

When the Ink was changed to produce the remainder of the Die 1 stamps, ink stripping remained a problem to a lesser degree. This is why on the same sheet people erroneously say that White Wattles appears alongside Die 1.

Look for a clear Die 1 for your collection, and then compare SHADES, along with the known White Wattles characteristics to identify a TRUE first part of print run "White Wattles".

I have seen many suspected cases of false identification of White Wattles on this thread on that basis.

Alec Rosenblum states in his 1966 book "The stamps of the Commonwealth of Australia" that the first print run was in a Royal Blue Ink which, however dried to a greyish blue, and called thos Type 1.

Type 2 was the bulk of the Die 1 printing, with a slight change in the formula of the ink, "resulting in a brighter blue than the preceeding".

c_h
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

I have added two new ink stripped additions to my KG VI 3d blues. Ink stripping also occurred with the thick and thin paper of Die 2 (both known as 'white faces') and are more prominent than the Die 1 'white wattles.'

These particular stamps are relatively unknown compared to their more famous older brother the 'white wattles.'

The 'white wattles' was issued on August 2, 1937. The thick (chalky) 'white face' was issued on March 12, 1938 and the thin 'white face' was issued on December 21, 1938.

The appearance of the Die 2 thick paper is not caused by a bright scanner light, that is actually how it looks.

1. Die 2 thin paper (white face)
Image
2. Die 2 thick paper (white face)
Image
On December 10, 1941 the ink stripping continued when a 3d brown (the result of a war tax colour change) variety was issued.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by josto »

Hi!

I never had a closer look at these issues, but now I tried to identify a few I found lately in a bulk collection. My thoughts (of course any amendment or approval is welcome!):

1. die I "white wattles" mlh
Image
2. die I variety "bottom frame thinned under AU" mlh
Image
3. die II "white face" used
Image
4. die II mlh
Image
5. die I mlh
Image
Any help appreciated!!

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by josto »

And here are two more:

6. die Ia mlh
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7. die II CTO
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Global Administrator »

Cooke_Harrison wrote:
There MUST be the "distinctive ink shade of Royal Blue" to be a genuine "White Wattles" printing, which was the first part of the print run.

I think it should be renamed "Royal Blue".
Don't think that test will work on USED copies.

This is printed on CHALK FACED paper.

When immersed in water clearly SOME of the chalk dissolves, and with it some of the ink, and clearly some of the colour.

How LONG each is soaked, creates a different end effect, and a different end colour.

Collectors often add things to soaking water, and that is a whole other ball game too. :idea:

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Cooke_Harrison »

Glen, very interesting! I am a Mint collector in the most part so used stamps were nowhere on my mind when I typed my post. I suppose the shade test applies to fresh mint copies only as a steadfast rule and perhaps on piece and cover also.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by WEIRD AL »

Image
Found this pair .

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Nice find Weird Al.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by iaincraven »

I guess this stamp suffered an extreme case of ink stripping? Very, very white wattles. The two left edge frame breaks are large, TA are practically one letter and the King really doesn't look very well !
Image
Pity about the surface stain and faults.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Clive »

Iain

That is far and away the most 'white' white wattles I've seen - the O of postage at left is very noticeable, too. Wish the two frame 'dots' were all as distinct as those.

It wasn't until they got to die 3 that the problem with ink stripping was more or less fixed - as someone noted a few posts up, the king's face on some of the die 2 papers is almost albino.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Even with the surface stain and faults, it is still a very nice prominent white wattles Iain.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Stuoow »

Hello all,

Just looking through a few 3d Blue Dies I have and came across this one, I'm thinking (hoping more like it) that it could be a "White Wattles" but not sure.
Image
All help and info much appreciated.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by The Pom »

Not for me I'm afraid. Too much colour in the wattles and the TA in POSTAGE top right need to be joined at the base.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Stuoow »

The Pom wrote:Not for me I'm afraid. Too much colour in the wattles and the TA in POSTAGE top right need to be joined at the base.
Thanks The Pom, as I said I was hoping it was but I guess I'll just keep looking.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Sorry Stuart, it's not a "white wattles".

From the ACSC (Autralian Commonwealth Specialist Catalogue (2015) Page 6/75

(i) The wattles and wattle leaves in each corner are very white with little shading
(ii) The King's ear is unshaded and the chin is badly defined
(iii) "TA" of "POSTAGE" at top right is pronouncedly joined at foot
(iv) A characteristic of the ink stripping is that it tended to produce two breaks in the inner left frame opposite the lower half of the portrait oval
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

The Die I "White wattles" appears to have achieved almost cult status on this thread, which I do understand is intended for classification and tutorial purposes.

From the outset it was a "glamour" stamp, and rapidly escalated in price, notably after the war, once collecting fully re-established.

The 1945 William Ackland (Melbourne) price list had it at 4/6d mint, 5/- used (his no.204):

Image

The "2nd printing", by comparison, was 1/6d mint, 4d used (no.205). In fact, as we now know, the so-called "1st" (Die I "White wattles") and "2nd" (Die I) printings were from the same printing.

I had a complete sheet in the 1970s which progressed from "normal" to "white" across the two panes of 80.

Interesting that Ackland priced used "White wattles" higher than mint. I have always found it a difficult stamp used, whilst mint is readily available.

Curiously, Ackland's no.206 is "3rd printing", "dark blue", which sounds more like he is referring to Die II Thin paper? He didn't appear to have mint in stock, which is puzzling. The perf. change Die III is over the page (his no.222), which is listed as "4th printing", also "dark blue". He didn't have that mint, either!

One can be excused for forming the opinion that the full story of the KGVI "3d blues" had not fully emerged by 1945.

My favourite "White wattles" item follows. The stamp is a rarity on commercial cover, just six have been recorded. Fortunately, this example is not only lovely to observe, it has an extreme example of the ink-stripping which led to its naming.

Image

Image

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Stuoow »

Thanks for the info Rod,

To me that is what I'd really call "White Wattles", not much blue in them at all.

Stuart

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

There were two other "white wattles" if I dare to use that description, as the "white wattles" is actually an ink stripping, so were these, the thick paper "white face" and the thin paper "white face".

1938 Die II Thick paper "white face" ink stripping
Image
1938 Die II Thin paper "white face" ink stripping. The extensive ink stripping gives the appearance of a blurred stamp.

Image
And of course the iconic 1937 Die I "white wattles".
Image
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by satsuma »

So if I wanted to prepare an exhibit centred on the KGVI 3d blue stamps, what would be the minimum requirement to achieve a reasonable mark?

An intro stating which stamp it replaced, where the design came from, and mentioning the proof held in the Australian Post Archive Collection.

Examples of each of the six states mint (and used?) with enlargements to clarify the differences, and info re the varying plates used and estimated quantities.

Examples of each of the four usages it was intended for.

Examples of inkstripping and the few other varieties listed.

An extro stating why it was replaced and with what.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

satsuma wrote:So if I wanted to prepare an exhibit centred on the KGVI 3d blue stamps, what would be the minimum requirement to achieve a reasonable mark?

An intro stating which stamp it replaced, where the design came from, and mentioning the proof held in the Australian Post Archive Collection.

Examples of each of the six states mint (and used?) with enlargements to clarify the differences, and info re the varying plates used and estimated quantities.

Examples of each of the four usages it was intended for.

Examples of inkstripping and the few other varieties listed.

An extro stating why it was replaced and with what.

Any thoughts?
And some "less usual" examples of usage, suitable for inclusion in a National level one-frame exhibit e.g.:

Image

Die Ia solo for "AR" fee

Image

Die II Thin solo for Empire Air Mail Scheme postcard rate to UK. This was a companion to the 5d airmail Letter rate. Curiously, the postcard rate is not recorded in Australia Post Archive (it may since have been located), but it seems a logical rate to have had in place, and I have seen two other examples, from different correspondences.

Image

Die II Thin multiple use x6 for 1/6d airmail rate to South Africa

Image

Die III solo for Letter rate (2d) + Late fee (1d)

Image

I would finish off the exhibit with the replacement stamp, seen here x3 for Letter rate (3d) + registration fee (6d).

Personally, I would avoid used off cover, unless you have some nice blocks. Singles are just not impressive to a judge's eye.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by satsuma »

Thanks Rod.

I've always wondered about exhibiting covers, eg your paquebot cover to South Africa, that have substantial toning.

Is there some kind of seesaw scale with rarity at one end and condition at the other in judges eyes?

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

[quote="Rob1956"]

1938 Die II Thin paper "white face" ink stripping. The extensive ink stripping gives the appearance of a blurred stamp.

Image
Probably not welcome news, but well informed is well prepared.

This variety has been well known since at least the 1950s, perhaps earlier.

I believe they were "manufactured" by a cunning part time wholesaler, who supplied Australian material to most of the Melbourne Trade/Auctions from 1940s/1980s (he was a highly qualified Technician in a mainstream profession, which I won't reveal, as he may still be with us, in his nineties).

In the 1990s, I visited his home as an Auctioneer; he was winding down, and had a huge amount of material, including:

1. Kangaroo Telegraph punctures, skilfully "plugged"

2. Punctured "OS", particularly Commems/3d Air Mail, remarkable quantities

3. "Unmounted mint" 1930s galore

4. An inordinate number of mint KGVI 3d blue "stripped ink", including blocks, identical in appearance to the item scanned above. These were very out of place in that stock.

In good faith (he was of legendary status amongst the postwar Trade), I took delivery of the first consignment he had prepared for my auction business. It was a very large consignment, with quantities of some items which just were not seen elsewhere at that time.

It was not until my second trip, when he was about to hand over another very large "batch", much the same content as the inaugural consignment, that the penny dropped: I had better take a very close look at this "stuff".

Subsequently, I rejected most of the material, including another mint block of that 3d "stripped ink". Under high magnification surface abrasions became evident; he apparently was gently rubbing the ink from the surface of the stamps.

For a highly skilled technician in his field, this would have been a very simple exercise.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

satsuma wrote:Thanks Rod.

I've always wondered about exhibiting covers, eg your paquebot cover to South Africa, that have substantial toning.

Is there some kind of seesaw scale with rarity at one end and condition at the other in judges eyes?
The scan is unkind to that cover.

It's been exhibited nationally a few times, without raising comment from judges. My KGVI usage exhibit generally rates 8/10 for Condition, which is acceptable to me, given the nature of the material.

Commercial covers should not be expected to be pristine to the extent of philatelic covers.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Quite an interesting story Rod, there are many manufactured varieties, errors etc., floating around, I am quite confident the specialists I purchase stamps from know the authenticity of the ink stripped issues I have. And the ACSC also gives a short summary of the ink stripping.

“4. An inordinate number of mint KGVI 3d blue "stripped ink", including blocks, identical in appearance to the item scanned above. These were very out of place in that stock.”

Identical maybe, the same, no, the one I have shown can easily be confirmed to be authentic as can be done with every stamp I possess in my collection. All stamps ink stripped, retouched, progressive dry inking, wrong colours etc., etc., etc., are authenticated by specialists, and if necessary expertised in writing.

I am seriously considering starting an album on forgeries, so any from that old scammer that are expertly manufactured will be considered.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

That's the first time that story on the manufactured "stripped ink" 3d Die II (Thin) has appeared in print.

In the past, there has been no motive for doubting that variety. It has never been challenged (other than by my auction business in the 1990s).

During the past seven decades or so, since it first appeared, it has fooled every "expert" (this one included at one time), and was or is reposing in all of the major Commonwealth collections, past and present.

I did not mention, there were also quantities of used of the same variety in that tarnished dealer's stock.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Rod Perry wrote:That's the first time that story on the manufactured "stripped ink" 3d Die II (Thin) has appeared in print.

In the past, there has been no motive for doubting that variety. It has never been challenged (other than by my auction business in the 1990s).

During the past seven decades or so, since it first appeared, it has fooled every "expert" (this one included at one time), and was or is reposing in all of the major Commonwealth collections, past and present.

I did not mention, there were also quantities of used of the same variety in that tarnished dealer's stock.

Rod
I doubt this old timer furnished the philatelic world with every ink stripped variety whether it is minimal or extreme. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of a stamp if it was professionally expertised, and with computer technology these days, a tampered stamp can be easily detected (I should know as I’ve been in the IT business for 32 years).

Can you personally identify a tampered ink stripped stamp, or are you assuming this old guy thumbed day and night creating this particular error on many sheets of stamps, I very much doubt it.

What I have is authentic unless it can be proven otherwise with reliable references that these ink stripped varieties were created by an old-timer in his hey-day.

And as I said it is a good story and unless it can be authenticated it is just a good story.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Rob1956 wrote: And as I said it is a good story and unless it can be authenticated it is just a good story.
I dunno. The story's from a pretty reliable source.

Greg

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

Rob1956 wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:That's the first time that story on the manufactured "stripped ink" 3d Die II (Thin) has appeared in print.

In the past, there has been no motive for doubting that variety. It has never been challenged (other than by my auction business in the 1990s).

During the past seven decades or so, since it first appeared, it has fooled every "expert" (this one included at one time), and was or is reposing in all of the major Commonwealth collections, past and present.

I did not mention, there were also quantities of used of the same variety in that tarnished dealer's stock.

Rod
I doubt this old timer furnished the philatelic world with every ink stripped variety whether it is minimal or extreme. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of a stamp if it was professionally expertised, and with computer technology these days, a tampered stamp can be easily detected (I should know as I’ve been in the IT business for 32 years).

Can you personally identify a tampered ink stripped stamp, or are you assuming this old guy thumbed day and night creating this particular error on many sheets of stamps, I very much doubt it.

What I have is authentic unless it can be proven otherwise with reliable references that these ink stripped varieties were created by an old-timer in his hey-day.

And as I said it is a good story and unless it can be authenticated it is just a good story.
I did introduce this commentary as:

"Probably not welcome news, but well informed is well prepared."

Collecting is, by it's very nature, an obsessive pursuit.

There is a famous saying in the philatelic auction community: the rare "a" number is omnipresent in consignments.

Collector's are optimists.

Even Arthur Gray long argued that his Kangaroo First wmk. 5/- punctured Small "OS" must be genuine: It exists, therefore it must be.

It took Geoff Kellow's research in to The Note Printing Branch Archive to prove, well no, it exists, but it's a fabrication.

If SB members would prefer that I stoke their fires with BS, well I can do that too.

As a Philatelic Auctioneer for over 40 years, I have learnt when required to take that perspective to art form status.

I suspect, however, most would prefer I call a spade a spade, even when it occasionally grates?

Rod

(and, Rob1956, I hope you have noted I've made light of your rather demeaning insinuations)
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Greg Ioannou wrote:
Rob1956 wrote: And as I said it is a good story and unless it can be authenticated it is just a good story.
I dunno. The story's from a pretty reliable source.

Greg
I'd rather see factual evidence to support that "reliable source" than read from a "reliable source" that has nothing to support it. I invest a lot of money into my collection and when someone says that a particular stamp is "manufactured" I'd like to see the evidence.

It isn't an attack on one's honesty but to claim something is not authentic one needs to produce the evidence to back that claim. I would like to see that evidence, and other evidence that the old scammer also manufactured other very scarce stamps.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Rod, I'm neither an optimist nor a pessimist; I am just a collector like everyone else on this website, and when someone says something that I find quite interesting and is supposed to be factual, then I would like to see the evidence to back that claim.

It isn't a slight on a person’s honesty, it is just common sense, make a fantastic claim one will ask for evidence to that claim.

Arthur Gray though I have never known him he would have made an error to think that the existence of a stamp makes it genuine unless there is irrefutable evidence to back the providence of that stamp.

I ask no-one to stoke my “fire” with BS and I doubt members of this board would want the same. But to me a story without factual evidence is just a story, though I will not go as far as saying it is BS.

There are many stamps that have been manufactured (I have come across quite a few), though to imply that the 1938 thin paper Die II ink stripped variety is a manufactured variety, you will need more than your word to prove it so.

I have been a technician for 32 years with degrees in IT, and if I make a statement it is accompanied with a report; so you being an auctioneer for 40 years you should know that such a statement would require evidence. You wouldn't say at an auction that a particular stamp is bogus unless you have documentation to support that claim.

So unless there is factual evidence proving that all the 1938 thin paper Die II stamps are a fabricated variety (and I'm not doubting that there are fakes around), until then I’ll put my trust into specialist experts and the ACSC concerning the authenticity of the varieties and other stamps I purchase.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

Rob1956 wrote:Rod, I'm neither an optimist nor a pessimist; I am just a collector like everyone else on this website, and when someone says something that I find quite interesting and is supposed to be factual, then I would like to see the evidence to back that claim.

It isn't a slight on a person’s honesty, it is just common sense, make a fantastic claim one will ask for evidence to that claim.

Arthur Gray though I have never known him he would have made an error to think that the existence of a stamp makes it genuine unless there is irrefutable evidence to back the providence of that stamp.

I ask no-one to stoke my “fire” with BS and I doubt members of this board would want the same. But to me a story without factual evidence is just a story, though I will not go as far as saying it is BS.

There are many stamps that have been manufactured (I have come across quite a few), though to imply that the 1938 thin paper Die II ink stripped variety is a manufactured variety, you will need more than your word to prove it so.

I have been a technician for 32 years with degrees in IT, and if I make a statement it is accompanied with a report; so you being an auctioneer for 40 years you should know that such a statement would require evidence. You wouldn't say at an auction that a particular stamp is bogus unless you have documentation to support that claim.

So unless there is factual evidence proving that all the 1938 thin paper Die II stamps are a fabricated variety (and I'm not doubting that there are fakes around), until then I’ll put my trust into specialist experts and the ACSC concerning the authenticity of the varieties and other stamps I purchase.
You are entitled to your opinion, Rob1956, as I am to mine.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

I didn't make an opinion Rod, and do you know that an opinion is a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

So I'll leave it there and both of us can go back to enjoying Stampboards.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Global Administrator »

Some interesting printing aberrations occurred during the disruptions in WW2, for obvious reasons.

Like Rod I've been around a very long time in this trade, and seen some VERY strange things going on under the radar.

One dealer used to make used 3d "White Wattles" 100 at a time on Saturday afternoons while watching football. At $75 apiece retail, he'd make more in that AFL match, than most folks made gross in a month in a senior job back then.

Would they fool me - no. Would they fool Rod - no. Would they fool a majority of collectors even today - hell yes.

Could it be done by any reader today in minutes - hell yes.

That was the Chalky paper 3d of course, and above we have the ORDINARY paper. Trickier to fiddle with, which is not to say it is impossible at all.

I sold this block below that had "no imprint" .. not because the plate omitted it, but because ink stripping 'ripped' it off. ACSC 230zo $1,250. The same stamp is listed with "White Face" at $275 for severe ones, and lesser ones worth less. And several other Defins of this era had the same issue. The 3d thin paper above included.

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Image
Australia January 1942 2½d Red KGVI "NO IMPRINT" Block 4 - caused by Ink Stripping: For some reason the ink did not take to the lower margin. Faint red specks are still there under magnification. Also note the SW "Void Corner" of the SW stamp - also un-inked. I have never seen or offered this one before. From a lovely KGVI specialised collection I bought recently.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Today's computer technology (and I know what I'm talking about) can pick up the very slightest of imperfections in a stamp. If a stamp had been interfered with it can easily be identified as such, whether it was given the finger and thumb treatment or something far more advanced.

Regardless of the years both of you have been in the trade, can any of you prove beyond all doubt that the specimen I showed which is the centre of this discussion being spurious, and that it was part of the old finger and thumb method, there are fakes and there are the real McCoy's.

I do not doubt any of the stories given, but it isn't evidence that a collector will only possess a fake ink stripped stamp. There is no doubt that there are scammers out there that will do such a thing, and in the past they got away with it, but to assume that the stamp I showed was created from some old scammer is incorrect unless it can be verified that it is a fake by modern technology, or by credible references that will support the claim.

When you said “Would they fool me - no. Would they fool Rod - no. Would they fool a majority of collectors even today - hell yes.”

Can those fakes fool technology – no chance, considering the magnification that can be achieved; and to say that such fakes can fool the majority is merely an assumption.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Global Administrator »

Rob1956 wrote: When you said “Would they fool me - no. Would they fool Rod - no. Would they fool a majority of collectors even today - hell yes.”
Given we have just seen an army of ebay Bunnies bidding this $5 forged piece of junk below on right up to $A650, I stick by my long held view. :lol: :lol: :lol:

A vast slab of collectors cannot spot even appalling fakes from the field they collect. True now, true always. :idea:

I've never expressed a view on your alleged "White Face" as I'd need to see it in person to do that.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

Rob1956 wrote:Today's computer technology (and I know what I'm talking about) can pick up the very slightest of imperfections in a stamp. If a stamp had been interfered with it can easily be identified as such, whether it was given the finger and thumb treatment or something far more advanced.

Regardless of the years both of you have been in the trade, can any of you prove beyond all doubt that the specimen I showed which is the centre of this discussion being spurious, and that it was part of the old finger and thumb method, there are fakes and there are the real McCoy's.

I do not doubt any of the stories given, but it isn't evidence that a collector will only possess a fake ink stripped stamp. There is no doubt that there are scammers out there that will do such a thing, and in the past they got away with it, but to assume that the stamp I showed was created from some old scammer is incorrect unless it can be verified that it is a fake by modern technology, or by credible references that will support the claim.

When you said “Would they fool me - no. Would they fool Rod - no. Would they fool a majority of collectors even today - hell yes.”

Can those fakes fool technology – no chance, considering the magnification that can be achieved; and to say that such fakes can fool the majority is merely an assumption.
Rob1956, what is in this for me?

Well, nothing, other than to record a nefarious episode which occurred in my rather long commercial philatelic career.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rob1956 »

Spoke to the specialist (he too had 40 years in the field of Philately) whom I bought the stamp from, he guaranteed that the stamp was genuine, and can provide evidence if I want it; good enough for me.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by BigSaint »

Now who says you can't pick up a bargain on ebay :?:
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Standard Stamp Company of Brisbane fdc with "White Wattles".
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Unfortunately, it will not add to Rod's list of commercially used "White Wattles" on cover.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Rod Perry »

BigSaint wrote:Now who says you can't pick up a bargain on ebay :?:
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Standard Stamp Company of Brisbane fdc with "White Wattles".
Image
Unfortunately, it will not add to Rod's list of commercially used "White Wattles" on cover.

Brad :)
Would be interesting, Brad, to learn the census of "White wattles" FDCs prepared outside of Queensland?

I've seen only one.

I think most of us know, and I quote from ACSC:

"The distribution of the "white wattles" variety seems to have been largely restricted to Queensland, but isolated instances of issue to New South Wales, Victoria and Western Australia was reported."

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Global Administrator »

Agree with Rod .. I can't recall seeing any 3d KGVI White Wattles FDC other than Queensland.

Odd really. 8)

Brad .. nice find. :D

blue-lazer wrote:I would like to share this amazing strip with stampboard members.

Here is a strip of 10 x 3d blue die 1 stamps that have been previously seperated and re-joined in two places.

As you can see from the matching "wonky" perfs these joins match perfectly.

The interesting thing about this strip is that the top 7 stamps show the white wattles flaw and the bottom 3 stamps are normal die 1.

This would indicate that both types existed in the one sheet rather than separate printings.
Image
This is the complete strip of 10.
Image
Top 3 stamps, all with prominent white wattles variety.
Image
Middle 3 stamps with white wattles progessively getting less prominent.
Image
Bottom 4 stamps showing 1st stamp as just classifiable as white wattles and bottom 3 stamps as normal die 1.

Has anyone here ever seen joined die 1 stamps showing both normal and white wattles variety together?
Nice examples of how this stamp occurred.

As Rod has posted above he once had a full sheets where the ink stripping varied across that sheet from being thick paper Die 1s, to White Wattles!

As it was simply a graduation in ink stripping, my guess is 2 stamps TOGETHER you'd not find .. but a left stamp on a row of 10 might differ a lot from RH stamp on same row!
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by Global Administrator »

:D
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Allanswood »

I've just been looking at the nice clear images of all the "Die's".

A comment on some previous posters that have said the Die III image shows a 'smaller head' and that you can see more of the epaulette on his right shoulder.

Both comments are incorrect - the head is not smaller, the entire portrait image has been re-engraved and moved about 1mm to the left as you view it compared to Die I within the oval frame. The head is still the same size as the other die's. They even fixed his dodgy left eye.

And the epaulette you see more of is the one on his left shoulder not his right.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Allanswood »

Proof that I believe the ACSC to be in error.

A Die III with a Die I (pink) merged head.
If you shift the head by the width of the oval frame white area you have the shifted image with the longer epithette but the exact same sized head.

Image
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by BigSaint »

All Photobucket images removed & replaced with Imgur images.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Micky »

Hi all, would this be Die 1 white wattles, the breaks in the side are only partial but probably wrong place, I have to check properly when images are working again.

Dated 5 Au 1937

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Image

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by The Pom »

Looks like a standard Die I to me.
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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

Post by Micky »

Thank you The Pom, thought I better ask just in case, still a nice old cover to own, I see a coupe blue blobs around too, back of King head and top left of crown. :D

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