Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scans

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Robbo »

PeterS and Clive

Thanks for a great tutorial!

Clearly I need a good magnifier to apply the lessons.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

Robbo,
Clearly I need a good magnifier to apply the lessons.
Yes, a magnifier helps heaps, although a scanner is probably better. Even a 300dpi scan, enlarged on a computer screen, will make identification of these easy.

Clive

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

PeterS wrote:
selvedge wrote:
clive willingham wrote:To complete the set here is a die 3 -
Image
Clive
This is the sort of knowledge I live for here on stamp boards.

But I have a question about Die 3. I note that the L and I in "Australia" seemed to be deformed in that there is no white shading on the bottom of the letters making them look disconnected.

Is this a way to pick a Die 3 or is it a known flaw?
Did you read the whole thread? I described earlier that the Die II is identified by a longer epaulet on the King's right shoulder and the head is slightly smaller. Looks identical to the 1/4d value, which was the model for this die. :D
Woops! Senile dementia alert! I meant, of course, Die III in the above post! :oops:
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Robbo,
Clearly I need a good magnifier to apply the lessons.
Yes, a magnifier helps heaps, although a scanner is probably better. Even a 300dpi scan, enlarged on a computer screen, will make identification of these easy.

Clive
I agree, scanning any stamp that has complex variations in design is by far the easiest aid to identification.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by Clive »

Peter,
I agree, scanning any stamp that has complex variations in design is by far the easiest aid to identification.
I have found that there is a distinct downside. I usually scan my stuff at 800dpi (because anything more slows up the system too much). But boy oh boy, don't the scans show up all the little tone spots and other blemishes that I'd missed with the naked eye and even with an illuminated 10x magnifier. :shock: :o :o :o

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by selvedge »

PeterS wrote:
PeterS wrote:
selvedge wrote:
clive willingham wrote:To complete the set here is a die 3 -
Image
Clive
This is the sort of knowledge I live for here on stamp boards.

But I have a question about Die 3. I note that the L and I in "Australia" seemed to be deformed in that there is no white shading on the bottom of the letters making them look disconnected.

Is this a way to pick a Die 3 or is it a known flaw?
Did you read the whole thread? I described earlier that the Die II is identified by a longer epaulet on the King's right shoulder and the head is slightly smaller. Looks identical to the 1/4d value, which was the model for this die. :D
Woops! Senile dementia alert! I meant, of course, Die III in the above post! :oops:
Did you read the whole question?

I asked if the lack of outline on the L and the I are another way to identify Die 3 OR is this a known flaw?

So yes I read the thread about the epaulette and his head.

But comparing the Die 3 pic with the Die 2 pic you can plainly see the difference between the lettering of the LI in die 3 and the LI in die2.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by Global Administrator »

Valuable thread. 8)

90% of the"White Wattles" I am sold are NOT ...often as cowboys on ebay etc were the original sellers.

That frame break lower left is a most useful guide.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d GVI

Post by PeterS »

selvedge wrote:
PeterS wrote:
PeterS wrote:
selvedge wrote:
clive willingham wrote:To complete the set here is a die 3 -
Image
Clive
This is the sort of knowledge I live for here on stamp boards.

But I have a question about Die 3. I note that the L and I in "Australia" seemed to be deformed in that there is no white shading on the bottom of the letters making them look disconnected.

Is this a way to pick a Die 3 or is it a known flaw?
Did you read the whole thread? I described earlier that the Die II is identified by a longer epaulet on the King's right shoulder and the head is slightly smaller. Looks identical to the 1/4d value, which was the model for this die. :D
Woops! Senile dementia alert! I meant, of course, Die III in the above post! :oops:
Did you read the whole question?

I asked if the lack of outline on the L and the I are another way to identify Die 3 OR is this a known flaw?

So yes I read the thread about the epaulette and his head.

But comparing the Die 3 pic with the Die 2 pic you can plainly see the difference between the lettering of the LI in die 3 and the LI in die2.
The die II and Die II, as previously explained, are totally different dies that were separately prepared. The Die III is based on te 1/4d value of the same design.

So, the LI is consistent with Die III. However, there are lots of other minor differences in the dies. By far the easiest way to tell is to check the right epaulet.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by reddies »

Image
PeterS,

This may HELP you Identifying Australian KGVI. :wink: :)

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by Clive »

Selvedge,
selvedge wrote: But I have a question about Die 3. I note that the L and I in "australia" seemed to be deformed in that there is no white shading on the bottom of the letters making them look disconnected. Is this a way to pick a Die 3 or is it a known flaw?
It is a constant characteristic of the die 3 so yes, it is one way to identify a die 3. Another is, as Peter mentioned, to compare the epaulettes on a die 3 with a 1938 KGVI 1/4 magenta. But I think you will find the easiest way is just to use say your 'white wattles, or your die 2 'thin' paper, as a reference for comparison purposes. So, for example -
ImageImage
The stamp on the left is the die 2 'thick' paper. The king's portrait is the same as for the die 1, the 'white wattles, the die 1a and the die 2 'thin' paper 3d blues.

The stamp at right is a die 3. You can see that the two portaits are entirely different. In fact, in my view they could be of different men.

Hope this helps.

Clive

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by PeterS »

OK, who wants to have a go at identifying this stamp?
Image
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by reddies »

PeterS wrote:OK, who wants to have a go at identifying this stamp?
Image
PeterS,

For me, need to see a close up of the area above our Left 3d value, to see if the '2 Dots' are present. :? :D

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by admin »

PeterS wrote:OK, who wants to have a go at identifying this stamp?
Image
Looks like an appallingly blurry scan of a White Wattles - so far as the dodgy scan allows one to comment. :)

A note of interest - near all 1937 FDC of these will be White Wattles ... and near always come with the 6d and 1/- value too.
Image

Image

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by PeterS »

Glen, it was listed as a Die Ia and it is the best scan available. One thing is for sure and certain, it isn't a Die Ia. For what it is worth, I believe it to be a White Wattles as well.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by PeterS »

admin wrote:
PeterS wrote:OK, who wants to have a go at identifying this stamp?
Image
Looks like an appallingly blurry scan of a White Wattles - so far as the dodgy scan allows one to comment. :)

A note of interest - near all 1937 FDC of these will be White Wattles ... and near always come with the 6d and 1/- value too.
Image

Image
The first printing of the 3d were all White Wattles, due to the unsatisfactory ink used. The Die I non-White Wattles was printed with a new formula ink and the Die Ia was a further attempt to improve the visual aspect. All 3 (Die I WW, Die I and Die Ia) were all issued at the same time, meaning the problems were addressed, to a degree, before final release.

It is interesting that the White Wattles seems to be, overwhelmingly, the stamp used on the FDCs. I suppose they may have used up the sheets in order of printing? I suspect finding a Die Ia on the FDC would be a great rarity.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by reddies »

admin wrote:
PeterS wrote:OK, who wants to have a go at identifying this stamp?
Image
Looks like an appallingly blurry scan of a White Wattles - so far as the dodgy scan allows one to comment. :)

A note of interest - near all 1937 FDC of these will be White Wattles ... and near always come with the 6d and 1/- value too.
Image

Image
Admin,

Thank you , I've learnt something new, now so obvious that a D.o.I.C would have it attached. :idea: P.S. The 2 letters beneath 'Brisbane' look like NZ. :? :D

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by kiwidaytrader »

I think the writing under Brisbane is 'N 2' being the old postcodes. Clayfield is north Brisbane suburb.

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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by Faust »

Can somebody confirm that both stamps are " White Wattles "
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by GUTTERS »

Yes and yes check the left frames where two of the shading line are a little shorter than the rest that helps
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by tooler »

Now I'm wondering if what I have is a white wattles sg168a. It was sold to me as that and some folks here on the board said it was, but I don't see the 2 dots you are talking about. Is it real?
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by GUTTERS »

No dots mentioned
Across from the 5th and 7th perf counting up the frame line at the end of two shading lines is not the same as the rest
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by tooler »

Sorry Gutters, I don't quite understand what you are saying.
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by GUTTERS »

Image
Image
Hope this helps look at these areas on the earlier scans.

Also In the opening post the right stamp has the short ends and the left stamp does not.
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by Flash »

SIRWILLIAMOFPENNYLOT, hi, just adding my two bobs worth.

Looking at the first post on this thread it does indeed appear to me on my large screen that both your stamps are white dots white wattles.
However the stamp on the left seems to be at an early stage of die degradation if that is the correct term to use.
The ´ta´ seems also to be at an early point of die degradation as do the dots, (the missing blue of the lines).
I really know very little about these stamps or how they were printed, but going from what I see I believe it may be the very same die but printed much earlier than the more obvious stamp on the right.

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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by muruk »

I have one of these on cover with "whiteface" penciled beside it. Didn't have a clue what I was looking at. Now I know ... thanks.
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by Faust »

This are the 3 copies which I have the mostright is this a white face?
The 2 most left are from my previous mail.
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by tooler »

Just for reference in case anyone is interested, here is a page on the KGVI 3d white wattles:
Image
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by Flash »

Thanks tooler, your post certainly sheds light on the topic.

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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by Micky »

hi everyone, i have a question what is it when a white wattle has no dots on side, is it still a white wattle? :?
Oh and curious if these are normal flaws hope i have some luck i think i might sell this one. Is it worth selling? thanks :)
Image
no dots i think
Image
middle of A looks sloping
Image
decorations look very different to the other 3d's
Image
and finally the border is thick and thin
Image

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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by The Pom »

ADMIN COMMENT

Micky,
Please use your shift key occasionally, as per the Board Rules. Capital letters are required where needed - at the start of sentences, "I" when referring to yourself, not "i".

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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by The Pom »

Micky,
Your stamp is not a "White Wattles". It is a different Die altogether (Die II, and looks to be on unsurfaced paper), but may be slightly underinked, making the wattles a bit pale.

This is an area where a lot of confusion arises. The White Wattles stamp is not "Any stamp with white wattles", it is "A stamp from the early printings of a specific die (Die I), with a number of distinguishing features, including TA joined, broken shading on chin, two inner frame breaks at left and pale shading on wattles"
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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by Micky »

Yes I understand, thank you Pom for correcting my mistake and for the information on the 3D. I don't seem to have any luck on any stamp, keep on trying :)

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Re: 3d KGVI "White Wattles" Identification problems

Post by The Pom »

Here to help!
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Australia King George VI 3d is This a Die 1 ?

Post by manfaefife »

Apologies for starting a new thread, but I tried to find a King George VI thread to no avail. Simple question is this a Die 1 ?
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Re: Australia King George VI 3d is This a Die 1 ?

Post by PeterD »

Hi Manfaefife,

It looks like it may be a type 1a which is similar to the type 1 except that retouches have been made on the plate to seperate the letters.
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Re: Australia King George VI 3d is This a Die 1 ?

Post by GlenStephens »

PeterD wrote:
Hi Manfaefife,

It looks like it may be a type 1a which is similar to the type 1 except that retouches have been made on the plate to seperate the letters.
Well on ebay it might be Die 1A as of course that is the pricier one. (See post #1)

Give the average ebay seller several choices, and the stamp is ALWAYS the pricey one as it is often the blind leading the even blinder in there.

On stampboards however it is not Die 1A as the TA are clearly NOT seperated.

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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by PeterS »

Nope, plain old Die I. To be a Die Ia the bottom of the T has to be tapered (the original Die was retouched to try and improve the appearance).
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by manfaefife »

Yet in Gibbons used, a Die 1(£14) is dearer than a Die 1a(£7), though mint it's the other way around pricewise £60 as opposed to £140.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by PeterS »

manfaefife wrote:Yet in Gibbons used, a Die 1(£14) is dearer than a Die 1a(£7), though mint it's the other way around pricewise £60 as opposed to £140.
That will simply be an error, all catalogues make them from time to time.
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Re: Help needed with 3d blue wattles

Post by kiwidaytrader »

Hi.

Obtained this FDC with a large bunch of covers from NZ seller.
Image
Image
Pity it has large rip on left side. Clearly a die i . Is it a 'white wattle' or just the ordinary die i ?

Thanks.

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies - "White Wattles" scan

Post by Global Administrator »

Not White Wattles sadly.

Please READ over posts before hitting submit.

In neatly typed English, it is "Die 1" not "die i" etc. :roll:

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Re: Australia 1937 KGVI 3d Blue Dies & "White Wattles" scan

Post by DJM »

One of our favourite *coff* Ebay sellers NICKROLFE1944 has this KGVI 3d Blue listed as a used 'White Wattles' and 'Whiteface' for $US35. Clearly missing the notches in the left frame and the 'TA' has a clear break, but is this the rare variety he says it is ? I don't think so.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUST-ACSC-07C-DIE-2-WHITE-FACE-AN ... 588dbaa780
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by Trent »

Which die is this one? The "T" looks a bit tapered and the wattles look a bit more like Die 1 wattles than the die 2 ones.
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by PeterS »

Die Ia
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Re: Identifying the Dies of the Australian 3d KGVI

Post by Trent »

thanks
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King George V1 3d Blue confusion

Post by burgey »

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I have been studying the ACSC and I think my 3d Blue Die 1 "White Wattles" and the Die 1 "TA" joined are probably forgeries because I can't see the CofA watermark.

The Die 1a looks genuine and seems to have the bottom frame thinned under "AU" I don't have sufficient experience to know any of these things for certain, but I know there's plenty of experienced members who can offer some advice and I would certainly appreciate clearing up my little problem.

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DJM
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Re: King George V1 3d Blue confusion

Post by DJM »

Not forgeries, but before ANYONE can give you a more definitive answer we need LARGER scans of each stamp.

D.

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Re: Identifying the 5 Dies of the Australia 3d KGVI stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

Burgey - a ton of info on page 1 of this thread for you. 8)
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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

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PeterS
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Re: Identifying the 5 Dies of the Australia 3d KGVI stamp

Post by PeterS »

Definitely genuine and correctly identified. The watermark can be tough to see because the paper (in both cases) is chalk surfaced. In any event, I can clearly see the watermarks in your reverse scans.
Peter
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burgey
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Re: Identifying the 5 Dies of the Australia 3d KGVI stamp

Post by burgey »

Thanks for the info. I apologize for not noticing the valuable info posted in relation to the 5 Dies. I haven't been on the site for a while. Knowledge is power alright!

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