Old Persia and Iran stamps - How to distingush the fakes?

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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phillydan
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Help with the authenticity of these early Persia stamps?

Post by phillydan »

I have spent a fair amount of time in the Scott's catalog and reading Focus on Forgeries: Guide to Forgeries of Common Stamps, by Varro E. Tyler... But how can I find out for sure whether what I have is the real deal?

I tried working with a dealer, but feel there is a conflict of interest there. Any suggestions?

In particular, I have a collection of Persia / Iran stamps I inherited and would like to know which ones are not legit.

Thanks.
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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by BigSaint »

phillydan

Why not post some scans here. I am sure someone on the Board will know.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by Global Administrator »

phillydan wrote:
But how can I find out for sure whether what I have is the real deal?
Well there are 3 ways. :mrgreen:

1. You can spend many $100s, and send them in for Expert Certificates .

2. You can ask here, and with 15,000 Global members you will get FREE input on your stamps.

3. You can spend several years, and buy $100s of reference books, and learn for yourself how to sort them.



But WAIT .. you already DID #2 this year with these Persia, and got plainly told most of them were forgeries and reprints. You clearly did not like the Persia expert member's answer, and did not bother to even respond in any way, or even thank that member for his FREE and expert input, or respond to his question re papers. Or add images as your were requested to do by a Mod. Plain Rude. :roll: :twisted:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60485

Then you posted them up for sale this week at a total Froot Loop price, not mentioning the fakes or forgeries, and also not being eligible to sell stamps here anyway. That was deleted. You whined about that with Admin. :roll:

So Option #1 or #3 seem your best bet, as you clearly do not like what stampboards members tell you, and you do not like hearing the truth.

Tip from a dealer with 35 years experience - the stamp world always ASSUMES higher cat early Persia is mostly forged or reprinted etc, UNLESS you have proof to the contrary. :idea: :idea: :idea:

Same with Vatican States, Heligoland, early Japan etc. MOST on the market are bad.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by jimwentzell »

Phillydan,

Most collectors who have expensive, rare Persian stamps probably spent a lot of money on them. This usually leaves a paper trail with receipts, auction statements or dealer invoices. And possibly appropriate philatelic expertisations as well.

Everyone else will likely have the mass-produced forgeries which were sold through various stamp outlets years ago at very cheap prices. We all as collectors, at some point in accumulating material, come across items which we happily fill empty spaces in our albums, hoping they are the real thing.

Sadly, most of us have not won the philatelic lottery by chancing upon a rare valuable stamp which happened to come our way through dealers lots, approvals, collection hand-me-downs, or other venues.

Google "Album Weeds" and you will find this has been going on for many years almost since the beginning of stamp collecting!

It's kind of like finding a lot of sparkly, pretty jewelry in your great aunt's jewelry box after she dies.....if Auntie worked hard for a decent living she probably couldn't afford all those real-looking, huge diamond rings and fancy heavy gold tennis bracelets.

Chances are good they're cubic zirconia and plated or gold-filled unless she squirreled away huge sums. Even then, she'd likely have advised her heirs of their importance and value, or at least had good sense to get them insured, appraised, or otherwise expertized.
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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by phillydan »

Thanks for everyone's response... I am ultimately looked to separate the weeds from the flowers, as I have more interest in the investment value of the collection. How I could send them in for expert certificates... and get an estimate for the cost of such a service?

Thanks again!

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by Airmail »

phillydan wrote:Thanks for everyone's response... I am ultimately looked to separate the weeds from the flowers, as I have more interest in the investment value of the collection. How I could send them in for expert certificates... and get an estimate for the cost of such a service?

Thanks again!
Join the American Philatelic Society. The fee is small. It provides expertizations at reasonable cost. You shouldn't run into conflicts of interest. However, if you have a lot of stamps expertized, the cost will mount.
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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by ClassicalStamps »

Persia/Iran is a minefield of forgeries/reprints. Assume forgery unless accompanied with a certificate from a respected authority. If you want to pursue certification, check out this site:

http://www.persi.com/expertizing/expertizing.html

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by aethelwulf »

phillydan wrote:How I could send them in for expert certificates... and get an estimate for the cost of such a service?
Expert certs are usually about $30-50USD per stamp/cover.

Some people save money by sending in a block/sheet as "1 item", then break it up and offer a photocopy of the certificate for the full block.

But if you have an album page with 20 stamps, that will mean 20 certificates...at say $30 per certificate...as each stamp/cover/block is photo-ed, recorded, and a certificate issued for it. You can't ask the expertiser to look over everything, and point out the 'good' ones. That's a function an auction house or dealer can do, an appraisal, which they still bill by the hour or by the job for.

Things like early Persia, collectors will generally assume when they come across one or a few, that they're reprints/fakes. Especially if they're in a general collection, as it means the owner picked the stuff up in a packet or mixed lot. The real ones will almost all be sitting in the collections of specialized collectors after all these years.
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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by phillydan »

ClassicalStamps wrote:Persia/Iran is a minefield of forgeries/reprints. Assume forgery unless accompanied with a certificate from a respected authority. If you want to pursue certification, check out this site:

http://www.persi.com/expertizing/expertizing.html
Thanks for the link ClassicalStamps! I reached out to Mehdi through the site about getting certificates for my collection. I'll let you know how it goes.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by Global Administrator »

ClassicalStamps wrote:Persia/Iran is a minefield of forgeries/reprints.
Yes I posted this advice earlier. :)

phillydan asked me if I could expertise them, and sadly I know near as much about this area as he does.

Bottom line with this area is, that the cost of expertising them will EXCEED what the lot is worth as most will come back as fake .. along with a hefty BILL for telling you that.

Sell the lot 'as is' for a few $100 and get on with life is the savvy way to work with these areas. :idea:

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by BigSaint »

aethelwulf wrote:The real ones will almost all be sitting in the collections of specialized collectors after all these years.
With this advice from aethelwulf, I agree with Glen, sell it for what you can & move on. It appears highly unlikely that there is any pot of gold at the end of the rainbow here.

Brad :)
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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by fromdownunder »

Global Administrator wrote:Bottom line with this area is, that the cost of expertising them will EXCEED what the lot is worth as most will come back as fake .. along with a hefty BILL for telling you that.
This!

phillydan, let us say you send off 100 stamps to be expertised. That is probably $4,000 plus postage both ways, plus 3 - 6 Months of time, plus additional cost per stamp for the ones which are genuine, plus getting back Certificates (you will be charged per stamp real, or fake). How many can you calculate you need to be genuine to even break even on your initial outlay?

And if the "best" ones are fakes, you lose before you start.

Simple cost benefit exercise, left up to the student to decide.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by gavin-h »

Global Administrator wrote:
ClassicalStamps wrote:Persia/Iran is a minefield of forgeries/reprints.
Yes I posted this advice earlier. :)

phillydan asked me if I could expertise them, and sadly I know near as much about this area as he does.
I know a similar amount, but I could certify them here and now, unseen.

They are forgeries.

Why? Because they always are. This is one of those areas like Italian States, some German States, Heligoland, Buenos Aires, etc, etc, where unless you have an incontrovertible reason to KNOW they are genuine, you should assume they are all forgeries or reprints.

Now, POST SOME IMAGES on Stampboards as you were advised earlier in this thread, and someone will explain to you WHY they are forgeries. :idea:

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by phillydan »

Thanks Glen and everyone else for the input. I haven't heard back from Mehdi yet, but given the potential cost, I'll start posting images of the stamps that have high values in the collection, assuming they are the real deal. Here is are the first ones I'll post for everyone - its Persia 81 - 89.

Image

Fred (ghool2003) already said that they might be good if they are gummed, which they all are (https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60485). Scott's value in 2009 was $1,095.

So, do you think they are good... And if so, what would be a fair / reasonable collector-to-collector price?

I'll track which stamps are bogus / counterfeit is this spreadsheet, which lists all of the stamps in the album: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ty-uZPTb5WK0mZ_gp417 ... sp=sharing

Thanks!

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by saifbeg »

As a primary collector of Central Asia, Iran, and Turkey and this is MY OPINION, but the stamps that you show seem too "clean" to be from 1891, especially if they are reprints from 1894-1915. Gibbons "Central Asia" catalogue lists warning throughout this era about reprints and forgeries.

Since these are high values you are looking at I would say its either of the two but more likely reprints. Could you please post the watermarks and the back of the stamps?

And since your main concern I gather is value, I doubt that you'll actually get any where from £275-£800 that the stamps catalogue for.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by phillydan »

saifbeg wrote:Since these are high values you are looking at I would say its either of the two but more likely reprints. Could you please post the watermarks and the back of the stamps?
Thanks for chiming in saifbeg. Here are photos of the backs:

Image
Image

I tried to show the glossiness, which seems to indicate the uncleaned gum.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by saifbeg »

I would definitely have to say that my opinion is that they are reprints from 1894-1915. I'm not that good with forgeries so someone more experienced could chime in on that. It seems too "new" to be that actual stamps in question.

If I had to buy the set my top price would be £30-£35 if not lower. At auction maybe £15.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by SaigonSaddler »

The gum is perfect, the stamps look perfect.

Too perfect.

If these are genuine I'll eat my internet hat.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by phillydan »

SaigonSaddler wrote:If these are genuine I'll eat my internet hat.
Thanks for chiming in. Now you know why I have a hard time accepting that they are counterfeit.

These are from my grandfather's collection who was an engineer by trade and a meticulous collector of stamps.

I think he would turn in his grave if he found these were not the real deal.

Of course back in the 50's and 60's when he collected, he didn't have the benefit of stampboards.com! :D

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by gavin-h »

phillydan wrote:Of course back in the 50's and 60's when he collected...
Thing is, a lot of forgeries pre-date that by many decades, so your grandfather was probably a completely innocent "victim" of a forger old enough to have been HIS grandfather.

Also, bear in mind a lot of so-called forgeries are "reprints" authorised by postal authorities in the 1800s to satisfy collectors of that time. They were made to meet a demand at the time, not to deceive. Areas such as the German States, Italian States, etc are full of such things. Specialist catalogues will list them and how to identify them.

With these particular stamps, I don't know enough to venture an opinion on their genuineness or otherwise, but there are plenty on Stampboards with the knowledge to give you a certain view.

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by SaigonSaddler »

phillydan wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:If these are genuine I'll eat my internet hat.
Thanks for chiming in. Now you know why I have a hard time accepting that they are counterfeit.

These are from my grandfather's collection who was an engineer by trade and a meticulous collector of stamps.

I think he would turn in his grave if he found these were not the real deal.

Of course back in the 50's and 60's when he collected, he didn't have the benefit of stampboards.com! :D
Happy to assist. :wink:

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by vikingeck »

Console yourself Phillydan with the thought that granddad was able to buy these back in the 1950s for just a few $ ------------------Nothing like the catalogue value attributed to genuine items today!

Most of us older collectors will unwittingly have bought reprints at some time or other, thinking we had a bargain. I know I have several pages of Heligoland and of Samoa reprints. I never paid much for them, I expect because these, like the Persia, were never very popular since their reputation was tarnished by the reprints, that scared off most collectors, and reduced demand meant low prices !

The truth may be that Granddad probably wont do a lot of turning over, he probably did not pay much in the first place.
whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by phillydan »

OK, here is the next stamp up for review. It is Persia Scott's number 290:

Image
Image

Value in 2009 was $600. My confidence that this is genuine is low, but I'm convinced there is a gem somewhere in this collection. Maybe this is it!?

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Re: What is the best way to verify the authenticity of a sta

Post by Global Administrator »

phillydan wrote:
Value in 2009 was $600.
No the catalogue value of a GENUINE copy was $US600 .. but this is not one - IMHO. :lol:

Neither are these below.

Dealers just leave this stuff on old album pages, and allow near zero for it, and move onto the next country.
Image

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Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by DennyTex »

Hi,

I think it's Persian tho I'm not sure of the year. Also from reading it seems like there are many fakes when it comes to these (bummer) and other stamps.

It looks clean, tho lightly hinged. How does this compare to others of the same kind? BTW I love the design... as well as some of the earlier Uruguay stamps....

Suns, Stars, Lions...oh yeah any info on cool dragons and vikings would be appreciated too.

Best,
Denise

Image
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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by kuikka »

I think it is a revenue stamp. Yes, from Persia.

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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by joelk »

Yes, Service (ie revenue) stamp, from a set issued in 1940 to 1942.

I doubt there's any danger of it being fake. Catalog value is 1.5 Euros mint.

Cheers,
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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by MrSamoa »

I do not have a catalogue in front of me, but it says in Farsi:

top center: Post Iran
left top: dinars
right top: 50
bottom: government ( or governmental )

Hope this helps a bit
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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by joelk »

Thank you Marty!

Yes, it helps, as this matches the description, ie the right color, for the 50 dinars stamp.

Cheers,
Joel.

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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by MrSamoa »

Denny - Hope all this pins it down for you.

By the way, we passed by Pearl River on Sunday going up to visit my son at camp. He's in Fallsburg, and we went up the Pallisades Pkwy. Lovely area up there.
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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by DennyTex »

Hi!!! Kimmo, Joel, and Marty...Brilliant!
Thank You....Youz Gize are the Best!
Persia in the 40's how cool is that!... so are these similar in design to stamps that were issued earlier?
Also Marty are there stamp clubs in NYC...I have a terrible addiction...coffee,stamps, and tiramisu! :D
Best to all!
Denise

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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by Gjivo »

i saw some of these in my great grandfather's collection

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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by nigelc »

This is an official postage stamp SG O839 / Scott O61 from a 1941 set of 14.
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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by Brit-Col »

DennyTex wrote:...oh yeah any info on cool dragons and vikings would be appreciated too.
Best,
Denise
Given that 2012 was the Year of the Dragon there are lots of recent stamps depicting dragons. Google "dragons on stamps" and click on Images to see numerous examples.

And of course the Great Britain regional stamps of Wales have always had a dragon on them.

You can do the same thing for "Vikings on stamps."

BC
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Re: Persian Stamp... what year is it?

Post by DennyTex »

Thank You for all responding….. I will look for those dragon stamps too! :D

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Re: Help with the authenticity of these early Persia stamps?

Post by phillydan »

I have some of those in my collection. What characteristics indicate they are forgeries... Is it the spacing between the lines of the outer border (octagon) or the fineness of the print?

Image

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Re: Persia/Iran Official stamps help sought with ID?

Post by phillydan »

I scanned through my 2009 Scotts Catalog... Looks to be postage stamps from 1941:

Image

Be aware that it is well-known that there are an abundance of forged Iran/Persia stamps dating back to this period:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=64713

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Re: Iran stamps - Block of 4 with incomplete surcharge

Post by Gjivo »

When were they forged ? Which period ?

I don't undesratnd these void space ??

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Re: Iran stamps - Block of 4 with incomplete surcharge

Post by Philexx »

ghool2003 wrote:Dear rsah6426

Thank you for your reply. The gold on original never tarnishes and the second major sign is for both gold and silver boarder is that at least in one side you should have a void space(clear strip) between the stamp design and the silver or gold boarders.

These stamps were forged in Europe and while the design is exact they could not come up with the frame colour and settings. Both of your scans are not genuine because of both reasons.

When I started collecting Persia, I remember seeing an old stamp dealer having sheets of these and could not figure out how it was possible to have so much of this hard set.

Later he told me that it was a very small remainder of his fathers stock which were few hundred sheets when he lived in Europe.

With regards Fred
Hi Fred, I don't suppose you could post some images of the "real stamps"? Be good to see a comparison so we can learn how to recognize the fakes.
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Help assessing the authenticity of Persian Stamps

Post by phillydan »

I am hoping to get some help verifying which stamps in my Persian collection are legit, and which are bogus. Here is the first set at bat: SC 50 - 52 cancelled (1882 - 84)

Image

I am also looking for suggestions on how to validate the colors used in a stamp - for instance, the difference between blue and aqua marine.

Thanks in advance!

Dan

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Re: Help with Persian and Iran stamps - and forgeries please

Post by ghool2003 »

Dear phillydan

The stamps which you are showing are all bogus as the value oval should have a darker color than the base it sits on.

If they are the same color they are bogus. If the stamps have gum and you see sign of strips on the gum side it is bogus.

With regards Fred
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Re: Help with Persian and Iran stamps - and forgeries please

Post by ghool2003 »

Dear Philexx

I have been trying to put scans of genuine stamps but I can not manage it.

If you give me a step by step direction, then I will try to post it.

With regards

Fred
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Re: Help with Persian and Iran stamps - and forgeries please

Post by Global Administrator »

ghool2003 wrote:
I have been trying to put scans of genuine stamps but I can not manage it.

If you give me a step by step direction, then I will try to post it.
Far easier than you think!

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=284

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Re: Help with Persian and Iran stamps - and forgeries please

Post by gwjstamps »

Thank you to all those who have replied and added to my original question. I had put all of the Iranian / Persian stamps aside about 5 years ago when I found out what a minefield they were.

I have now finished the cataloging and selling on Ebay of all of my grandfather's collection (last high value group of his plus some Chinese I was given by an aunt 30 years ago) and hopefully this winter will have more time to devote to going at Iran again.

Armed with the info provided in this forum, I am looking forward to at least getting some questions answered.
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Persia Postes Persanes question: Are these genuine?

Post by jukes »

Could any of the Persian specialists advise which if any are genuine.

Image

Image

More to follow

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Re: Persia Postes Persanes question?

Post by jukes »

Image

Image

Image

Couple more

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Re: Persia Postes Persanes question?

Post by jukes »

Image

Image

Image


Thanks.
(If larger scans are better, i could re scan individually.)

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Iran / Persia 1913 4k 11.5 x 12 Ultra & Gray ID assistance?

Post by souldjer777 »

Good Morning,

I'd like to confirm what I have here - I believe I have a S.C. #496b - Iran / Persia 1913 4k which is ultra & gray unused "$350". The perfs are 11.5 x 12.

This catalog is all over the map in this area - so I'd like to be confident of what I have first. Please let me know catalog number and value if I'm mistaken.

Iran / Persia 1913 4k 11.5 x 12 Ultra & Gray stamp
Image

Thanks!

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Re: Iran / Persia 1913 4k 11.5 x 12 Ultra & Gray ID?

Post by AdmiralCollector »

This sure is a beautiful stamp ! !

My old Scott Catalogue does not list 496b -- just 496. Prices for unused stamps from the entire set are in italics which means that they are seldom sold.

At the end of the listing is a warning: "Unauthorized 'reprints' of Nos. 481-500 are ubiquitous. Perf. 11 1/2 X 12."

If the unused stamp catalogues at $350, and unauthorized reprints are ubiquitous, then such a nice stamp is probably one of these reprints.

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Re: Iran / Persia 1913 4k 11.5 x 12 Ultra & Gray ID?

Post by souldjer777 »

Thank you for the reply AdmiralCollector. Here is what my S.C. has...

‭Ahmad Shah Qajar A32
‭1911 - 21

Perf. 11 1/2
‭496 A32 4k ultra & gray (’13) —

‭Perf. 11 1/2x12
496b A32 4k ultra & gray (’13) 350.00 65.00

So from what I can tell... 496 doesn't register anymore and they left a "—" mark. In total they have listed a 496, 496b, 496c, and 496e. Looks like 496c isn't available either...

Perf. 11 1/2
496c A32 4k violet & black (’13) —

Perf. 11 1/2x12
‭496e A32 4k violet & black (’13) 450.00 75.00

From what I can tell it will only fit the 496b for color and perforation. But... my catalog isn't that hot imo - not in this area at least.

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