Old Persia and Iran stamps - How to distingush the fakes?

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Re: Can anyone identify this Persia inverted overprint, please?

Post by OttawaMike »

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Please try to use complete sentences in your posts, rather that text speak.

As you can see, one member has already assumed that "ty" is your name.

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Re: Can anyone identify this Persia inverted overprint, please?

Post by kclark »

thank you and apologies for the confusion

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Re: Can anyone identify this Persia inverted overprint, please?

Post by mikeg »

Looks genuine- as norvic said, printers waste.

Issued stamps had to have a "provisoire" overprint.

Also the penmarks are not postal.

The separately printed background for the 3 ch is out of register, and the 6 ch background is missing.

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Re: Can anyone identify this Persia inverted overprint, please?

Post by kclark »

Thank you all for the information and the help getting picture posted

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Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by Jilly »

Are there any specialists that might give me a little help with my persian stamps?


Possibly point out any obvious forgeries?

I've been unable to find any solid information about sorting them out - or values.

Thanks!

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and f

Post by NewPhilatelist »

I am not an expert in persian stamps, but I think the stamps with the brown colored paper are fakes. Check out this site for a good starting point,

http://www.persi.com/fakes/fakes/Fakes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully someone here has the expertize to add more.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by Jilly »

ouch! Not even with a ten foot pole? :lol:

Excuse my eagerness and probably too many questions from a newbie.. as much as I am enjoying sorting through all of these stamps (oh dear - I think it's a new hobby!) I'm trying to figure out if I have anything of value; my son needs medical equipment our insurance will not pay for. Thanks for your patience with me :)

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and f

Post by Jilly »

NewPhilatelist wrote:I am not an expert in persian stamps, but I think the stamps with the brown colored paper are fakes. Check out this site for a good starting point,

http://www.persi.com/fakes/fakes/Fakes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully someone here has the expertize to add more.

Thank you so much for the link. Great info!

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by hertsboy »

Jilly wrote:ouch! Not even with a ten foot pole? :lol:

Excuse my eagerness and probably too many questions from a newbie.. as much as I am enjoying sorting through all of these stamps (oh dear - I think it's a new hobby!) I'm trying to figure out if I have anything of value; my son needs medical equipment our insurance will not pay for. Thanks for your patience with me :)

Not sure if they are fakes or not, but either way they have no great value. I know because I have them most if not all of them in my collection - and I would have definitely remembered if I had paid a lot of money for them.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and f

Post by NewPhilatelist »

If I recall correctly, a genuine unused set of 1902-3 overprint issues are valued around US$150 according to Scott Catalogue. However, the market is saturated with fakes - nearly 99% of them on the market are fake. Genuine copies must be purchased with a certificate.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by Jilly »

99% wow that's amazing.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by skilo54 »

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

WOW, what a coincidence!I was hoping there was a thread on Persian Stamps,
Nice One Jilly! :D 8)


I just got these ones today, all hinged on an old album page and I would like some help with a few things. I hope it is OK that I add to this thread :)

I have been able to identify the stamps with the Prince in the central vignette in my Scott catalog, but I am having no luck finding the issue with the gold border? Could anyone help with a SG# or the year of issue for these stamps, or let me know if they are revenues of some sort?

What was the significance of the Gold border? I noticed a few other issues with this feature, and I am curious to know about it? Is it simply decoration, or from the Royal Desk or something?

I would also appreciate any opinions on the authenticity of these stamps, as that is apparently to be of some concern :lol:

I look forward to any and all feedback, I appreciate the time it takes :)

Thanks,

Skilo54

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by NewPhilatelist »

I can't give you the catalogue numbers of the gold bordered stamps, but I suspect they are reprints. These borders were added to several issues including the similar 1909 coat or arms issue.

The note in the Scott catalogue states that originals have a shiny gold appearance, whereas the reprints/fakes are blackish yellow. It's hard to tell which is in your scan, but with old Persia - if there is any potential for value - assume it is fake until proven otherwise.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by mikeg »

Skilo- Your stamps with the lion are unissued from 1910.

They are the low values from an issue for Ahmed Shah Qajar's coronation that was rejected.

The Persiphila catalog gives them a value of $20 to $25 each. There are no reprints/forgeries that I am aware of.

So you did okay with that lot!

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by skilo54 »

Wow, that is good news!! :D :shock: 8)

Thanks for the responses and sourcing out some information on these stamps, I am truly appreciative! :D :D

I found the note that was mentioned by NewPhilatelist in Scott and had a closer look at the border.
I notice that the gold border has specks of gold that glimmer when tweaked in a light source, and that it looks gold, rather than a black/yellow.

Thanks again for the info and the quick responses! :D

Skilo54

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by skilo54 »

Hello, :)

I am hoping for some Stampboarder analysis of the following stamps:

Image

Image

I know that some of them are pretty brutal, but I would like to know if any of these appear to be genuine? I also wold like to ask for some help identifying the overprint on the last stamp? I cannot seem to locate it using my references, and I would appreciate any information at all. I would be happy to post some enlarged scans if anyone wants, let me know. :D

Thanks for your time,

Skilo54



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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by Feebletodix »

Hi there Skilo

I am not an expert but I can see no problem with the Persian overprints. The last of them is the 1928 airmail issue. It depicts a Junkers F13 and Post Aerien on fiscal's. SG listed these in 1997 with a value of £2.75 used ref was 657b

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by skilo54 »

Hey Feebletodix, thanks for the reply, and the friendly email letting me know of your posting! A very nice gesture, and I appreciate you offering your opinion of these to me!

When you say-
Feebletodix wrote:I am not an expert but I can see no problem with the Persian overprints.


Is this a blanket statement for all of the stamps I have shown, or are you specifically referring to the last ones specifically? I would be pretty amazed if they were all to be authentic, that would be great! Generally all of these appear to be of higher quality than what I have seen of the forgeries, but I really do not have the expertise/knowledge at this time to truly offer a valid opinion. Do you collect Persia? If you have some overprints I would like to see them!

Thanks again Feebletodix, I look forward to your reply!

Skilo54

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by stallzer »

This is a very timely thread, anyone care to take a guess on these ?

Image

Image
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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by stallzer »

Thanks, I was looking to see if they were legit or not. I know the catalog numbers, except for the lower row, 2nd and 4th stamps. Grand total for all Stamps, probably around $1.50..
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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by Feebletodix »

Hi there Stallzer, didn't mean to patronise with the references.

After skimming a couple of other threads I noticed someone observed that 90% Persian are fake so I make no further comment on authenticity, hoping there is an expert out there.

I have a feeling I will get corrected but I think they might not even make a buck fifty. Catalogue values were handling charge only on the postal's.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by europhil »

Here are two references on Persian forgeries.

http://www.iranphilatelic.org/gen.htm

http://www.persi.com/fakes/fakes/Fakes.htm

The second one also offers an expertization service.

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Re: Help with Persian stamps and forgeries

Post by Feebletodix »

Thanks Europhil, both sites are quite informative.
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Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by JBee »

Could anyone on the board confirm that this 1924 Iran is a counterfeit?

The Scott catalog states that
Counterfeits having double line over "POSTES" are plentiful.
This definitely looks like it has a double line, but I don't have any others to compare it to.

I only have a Scott catalog. The Scott number is 684.

Image


Image


Thanks!

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by maptrekker »

Yes, that is the double line referred to by Scott.

I have two copies of what I think is the genuine, and two forgeries. But I must say that your forgery differs from mine.

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by phrag99 »

maptrekker wrote:Yes, that is the double line referred to by Scott.

I have two copies of what I think is the genuine, and two forgeries. But I must say that your forgery differs from mine.
For those of us that can't see your stamps, could you please post an image to show the difference?

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by JBee »

Thanks for the confirmation Maptrekker. It would be nice to see a scan of your genuine copies if it isn't too much trouble. From the picture in the catalog it looks like there is only one line above Postes. Is that what you have on your genuine copies?

Here is another one I've found on the 1919 issue. So now I have two copies and both are forgeries. :lol:

Guess Scott is correct in their comments on the 1919 issue that
This issue has been extensively counterfeited, and most examples in the marketplace are forgeries.
Image

And the closeup

Image

Here is another one that is in this minefield of Iranian stamps. I'm assuming this is also counterfeit, since it appears that everything printed prior to 1928 is suspect. I like the comment in Scott's on this one
Dangerous counterfeits exist, usually on reprints.
Even if it wasn't fake, the overprint is very poor.

Image

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by maptrekker »

I will post what I think maybe genuine 6-chahis stamps later this evening. They do have only one line above POSTES.

The 1 kran with the poor overprint looks like it is from the "service" overprints of 1911. That is a poor overprint. I have nothing like it. Assuming a forger would not make such poor overprints, maybe it is genuine.

The whole area of reprints is something I have not even come close to figuring out. If I gather up enough stamps, maybe some original prints will become obvious in comparison.

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by mikeg »

Here is one of my pages of this issue.

Image
First row: 1919 Genuine
2ed 1919 Fakes
3rd 1924 Genuine
4th 1924 Fakes
5th 1925 Genuine
6th 1925 Fakes

Close up of the forgeries:
Image
They will all have the double line.

Genuine:
Image
All have a single line more or less clearly printed.

Now to confuse you:
Image
You can sometimes find genuine stamps with traces of a Double line :shock:

The genuine stamps were printed from a forged plate that was confiscated by the police- this plate was of poor quality, and the poorly done printing did not help.

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by maptrekker »

Here is a scan of the 5ch with a single line over POSTES:

Image

Close up of the single line over POSTES:

Image

Here are my two lines over POSTES forgeries:

Image

Notice how the structure of the "P" is different as well as the placement of the "." on my forgery. Yours is much better.

Image

Also the second line is lighter and composed of dashes which do not show up readily in the scans. I think there are at least two different types of "two lines under POSTES" forgeries. As if someone made a forgery of a forgery.

Now if my 2-line forgery is genuine with traces of the second line, the overprint surely must be a forgery. Curiouser and curiouser.

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by mikeg »

Maptrekker- There is quite a bit of variation in the genuine overprints.

For example, in my scan above, my 6ch 1924 has a small 'P', but in other positions the 'P' is the same as on the forgeries.

Also, it helps to look at "Postes Persanes", the 'E' of Persanes is lacking the center bar on forgeries, but clear on the genuine.

I think there are only one set of forgeries, and all the variations in both genuine and forged simply come from poor printing.

The Persians were not concerned about small things like 'Quality Control' at that time :P

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by maptrekker »

Then all of my copies of the 6 ch 1924 overprints are genuine -- the odds would seem to be against it.

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by mikeg »

Maptrekker- as far as I can tell from your scans, yes all 4 of your 6ch are genuine.

All the cancels look ok too. Only rarely are the forgeries found cancelled.

It happens sometimes- maybe you should buy a loto ticket today :D while your luck holds out :D

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by maptrekker »

Thank you for the good news. I certainly have many of the strong double-line / weak POSTES PERSANES forgeries as well in the other denominations for comparison.

I will have to go over my typographed stamps again.

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by JBee »

Thanks a million Maptrekker and mikeg for posting scans of your copies of this issue.

I found another group of these and think I'm still batting 1000 in the forgery game. Hope you played the lottery mikeg. :)

All have the double line. Some have a missing cross bar in the E. They all look like forgeries to my inexperienced eyes.

Mod - dead links removed. :roll: :roll: :twisted: :twisted:


Mikeg you said the genuine stamps were printed from the confiscated forged plate. Are those the second set of genuine stamps in your post? The ones with the traces of a double line?

Thanks!

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Re: Iran 1924 Counterfeit Confirmation

Post by mikeg »

JBee- Sorry to be slow to respond :)

Too much work and other distractions :lol:

There was only one plate used for the genuine stamps. That was the confiscated plate.

The genuine stamps with a trace of double line maybe occur in one or two positions, however the 'PE' of 'Persanes' is always well formed on genuine, and always distorted on the forgeries.

Hope that is clear :D

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Possible Persian stamps?

Post by alexproskurin »

Greetings all.Just pulled these ones out of the shoebox and as much as information i can find, I believe they may be Persian but that's as far as i can go.

Anyone that has any advice on these ,It would be gratefully appreciated.

Cheers ,Al

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Re: Possible Persian?

Post by fromdownunder »

If genuine, what you have is a part set listed by Stanley Gibbons under Iran, numbered S.G. 292 - 297. The 6c red is missing. They were issued in 1902, but apparently there are many forgeries around.

IF (a big IF) they are genuine, the Catalogue value of your part set is GBP100+

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Re: Possible Persian?

Post by alexproskurin »

Thanks Norm for your quick reply.

How can i tell if they are or are not the real deal?

Cheers Al.

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Re: Possible Persian?

Post by fromdownunder »

Al, I have always worked on the basis that stuff that turns up in junk lots is actually junk. Somebody will probably turn up on this thread and explain what you have. I am not that person, but maybe you got lucky.

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Re: Possible Persian Iran 1902.Fake?

Post by alexproskurin »

Here are the backs of the stamps and they look to have light gum on them.

Cheers Al

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Re: Possible Persian stamps?

Post by aethelwulf »

Early Persia is a messy area; forgeries were knocked out by the trainload for the packet trade; you'll find old kid's albums and the like with 100 year old Persia and they won't be real.

I think it was about the British overprints for occupied Batum (roughly the same region) that Robson Lowe wrote that "in my opinion, 99% of the examples out there are forgeries". :roll:
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Re: Possible Persian stamps?

Post by tonymacg »

Writing about the British Occupation overprints on Persian stamps for Bushire, Robson Lowe wrote: "Have all rarities expertized; our own experience suggests that about 0.2 per cent only are genuine." Probably about the right percentage for many other Persian stamps of that vintage, too :D
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Re: Possible Persian stamps?

Post by mikeg »

Al- These are forgeries made in Paris in 1929.

One can tell by the top left corner shape of the ornaments and the overprint which is printed rather than hand stamped.

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Re: Possible Persian stamps?

Post by alexproskurin »

Fantastic! Its so good to get the right information.

Thank you,Cheers Al

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Re: Persian / Iranian stamps - How to distingush the fakes?

Post by ghool2003 »

Dear Sir
I will be very suspicious of any Iranian stamps with small postmark in the corner and any part of overprint missing. Only buy Iranian early stamps which has been expertised by a reputable expert.
Fred

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Re: Persian / Iranian stamps - How to distingush the fakes?

Post by gwjstamps »

Thank you for your response. I am not going to be buying any Iranian / Persian stamps, but am interested in trying to figure out whether these ones that my grandfather had in his collection (he stopped collecting in 1948 and died in 1960) are legitimate. The hint about the small postmark helps.

John

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Re: Persian / Iranian stamps - How to distingush the fakes?

Post by ghool2003 »

Dear John
I thank you for your response and since I have only seen your only posted stamp in this page,I made that suggestion.If I can help you with any others please just show me a scan and I should be able to give an idea on them. I have collected Iranian stamps for over 50 years.
With regards Fred

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Re: Persian / Iranian stamps - How to distingush the fakes?

Post by Feebletodix »

Hello John

There have been a couple of threads about Persian overprints which referred to these sites:-

http://www.persi.com/fakes/fakes/Fakes.htm

http://www.iranphilatelic.org/gen.htm

Hope they help

Feebletodix
Weaponsmith for the DemiGods from the plane of Silliness

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ghool2003
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Re: Is there an expert on early Iran issues out there?

Post by ghool2003 »

Dear Tony
All of your illustrated stamps are forgeris with forged overprints.I have collected these for over 45 years and they worth a few cents each. I have them in part sheets and they can be plated and the brown paper is the 100 proof of forgeries and the few white paper you have,also have forged overprints.
With regards Fred

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