Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by josto »

Hi David!

Thanks a lot! A 100% fit I think! As I have quite many of these, I really have to get the reference literature for the KGV 2d die I and the KGV 11/2 d die I issues!

Best wishes and stay safe!

Josto

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Josto,

If you are looking to purchase the 2d monster-sized mongraph ensure that it is the 2008 2nd Edition.
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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Are the flaws below the left value tablet constant or transient. The position is either 1L22, 1R22,1L52 or 1R52. The position is given by the white flaw in the 'W' of position 22 on the NWPI pane.

Gillies front (3).jpg
Gillies front lft value tablet.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Borisdog »

1R52, although much more "advanced" than noted in the BSAP checklist;

1R52;
Left Value Shield: Spot in the lower left corner of the shield, 2.75 mm from the left frame, with a flaw in the frame of the shield directly below the spot.

Shading At Left Of The Left Value Shield: Break in the line above the small corner line. Except in Harrison printings the right end of the 4th line (counting up) is missing.

Shading Below Left Value Shield: Break in middle of the lowest line below and to right of the point of the shield

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by muttly2011 »

I haven't been able to find this in the ACSC or the wiki - can anyone help with plating this stamp from information in other specialist literature please?

Single watermark, 1st row with marginal line, shading breaks in front of King's forehead and behind roo's head:

Three halfpence brown white flaws.jpg
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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

muttly2011 wrote:
15 May 2021 18:28
I haven't been able to find this in the ACSC or the wiki - can anyone help with plating this stamp from information in other specialist literature please?

Single watermark, 1st row with marginal line, shading breaks in front of King's forehead and behind roo's head:
Image
Nothing found in Bill Fiora's manuals.
Possibly Tin Shed flaws.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by muttly2011 »

Thank you very much for checking, rsellens.

The breaks look a little too neat for the 'tin shed' effect, so I will hold out hope for another similar.
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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Borisdog
Thank you for providing the information on the 5d speedily and effectively.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

Greetings.

Would appreciate assistance with this item, LMW, third wattle on right - nothing remotely similar in BW.

IMG_20210516_0002.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

And another please - front of face, frame and roo nose . I suspect a tin shed, but ?unusual.

No marginal wmk lines.

IMG_20210516_0004.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by satsuma »

jojo wrote:
16 May 2021 23:25
And another please - front of face, frame and roo nose . I suspect a tin shed, but ?unusual.

No marginal wmk lines.


Image
It looks like 2L45 with some bonus flaws.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Borisdog »

Doesn't look like 2L45 to me, the orientation of the flaw in front of the mouth is wrong.

Looks like straight out tin sheds to me.

They're very hard to plate 4d Blues from scans, I find. Even in the flesh they're tough to me - they're a difficult colour to distinguish anything. I do all of my plating work with a Canon D600 on live view and a 32" monitor and there are certain colours in the KGV range that I really have to manipulate the camera settings to get enough "contrast" to see anything. 4d Blues are one such colour.

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Australia 1931-36 KGV head - Identify Error Please

Post by souldjer777 »

Good Afternoon,

I have a Australia 1931-36 SC 115

Please identify the error on this stamp please.
australia_115_reentry_b.jpg
Thanks!
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Re: Australia 1931-36 SC 115 - Identify Error Please

Post by fromdownunder »

This is part of a compartment line, generally believed to be caused by build up of ink in the spaces between the stamps during the printing process.

These can be found in a quite a few Australian George V stamps, often with a complete line, rather than the broken line showed in your copy.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Agree Norm.
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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by RLMS »

souldjer777

3L2
3L2 #1.jpg
3L2 #2.jpg
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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

Borisdog wrote:
17 May 2021 19:51
Doesn't look like 2L45 to me, the orientation of the flaw in front of the mouth is wrong.

Looks like straight out tin sheds to me.

They're very hard to plate 4d Blues from scans, I find. Even in the flesh they're tough to me - they're a difficult colour to distinguish anything. I do all of my plating work with a Canon D600 on live view and a 32" monitor and there are certain colours in the KGV range that I really have to manipulate the camera settings to get enough "contrast" to see anything. 4d Blues are one such colour.
Would you like a close up ?

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

Here's another 4d blue - white flaw above P, between inner and outer oval lines. Can't see it in BW, or 4d check-list.


IMG_20210516_0005.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

jojo wrote:
18 May 2021 20:48
Borisdog wrote:
17 May 2021 19:51
Doesn't look like 2L45 to me, the orientation of the flaw in front of the mouth is wrong.

Looks like straight out tin sheds to me.

They're very hard to plate 4d Blues from scans, I find. Even in the flesh they're tough to me - they're a difficult colour to distinguish anything. I do all of my plating work with a Canon D600 on live view and a 32" monitor and there are certain colours in the KGV range that I really have to manipulate the camera settings to get enough "contrast" to see anything. 4d Blues are one such colour.
Would you like a close up ?
Here it is :
IMG_20210518_0002.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by satsuma »

Would you like a close up ?
Here it is :

Image

From the wiki
2L45
2L45

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

Having problems with this one too.

2d orange. White flaws on face, and either side of roo. Again, my initial thought was tin-sheds, but a large rounded area of extra colour is also present in front of king's ear.

IMG_20210516_0001.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

And lastly, another 2d orange, with subtle white flaws beneath left "2", in value table.
A nice CTO, too.

IMG_20210516_0003.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by heldo1 »

jojo wrote:
18 May 2021 20:52
Here's another 4d blue - white flaw above P, between inner and outer oval lines. Can't see it in BW, or 4d check-list.



Image
Hi jojo,

Just looking and noticed the left frame is indented in the top half.This is probably plated in the literature available.
regards heldo1
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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

SG#50 1d Lg Mult.

Possible Cooke ACSC 73(B, C) or Harrison 74

However, it is Dated 9FEB 18 (looks like a 13). This means it is too early for a Harrison printing (I believe - though I can't find the date that Harrison started printing the Lg. Mult.).

The Cooke printings are known with Melbourne (not Bendigo, Victoria) cancels.
According to the ACSC, the earliest known cancel date for a Cooke 1d Lg.Mult. is 23 Jan., 1918 (a couple of weeks earlier). The earliest known Harrison is 17 Dec., 1919.

For the record, the UV reaction seems dull/purple-red (not bright, not golden).
Needless to say, I am perplexed and would like to hear from the experts on this one.

Perhaps it is a cancel error. If someone has a reference for this specific Bendigo cancel - it might help with dating.

SG#50 1d Lg Mult poss Cooke ACSC 73(B,C) or Harrison 74 Dated 9FEB 18.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

Here is another one I could use help with.

SG#20 with vertical white lines near the right frame.
There is also a very odd blotch in the crown.

There a few listed that have this line, the closest match seems to be ACSC 63(3)f (that would make it a scarce stamp if it was from Electro 3)

Or it may be 63(1)d, though the line is not in exactly the same place. ACSC mentions other positions but does not illustrate them all.
The watermark line on the back may help.

Any ideas?

SG#20 ACSC63 (1)d or (3)f Sngl wm (wm line) line down right side 1915 blotch on Crowna.jpg
SG#20 ACSC63 (1)d or (3)f Sngl wm (wm line) line down right side 1915 blotch on Crown.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Hi rehautala

RE: ½d green

Given the right hand watermark line and the vertical scratch just inside the right frame, your stamp would probably be from position 1L12. There is a nice copy in the ½d wiki for comparison. I believe the flaw in the crown is probably a "bullet hole" and thus transient.

Cheers David

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

Thanks for the help and for pointing out the wiki David, 1L12 looks like a match.

That's 63(1)d in ACSC. The "bullet hole" threw me off a bit.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Borisdog »

rehautala;

There are a "fair few" copies of BW73 B&C cancelled in early Feb '18, but Melbourne as you say. See the last Phoenix Auction #86 for examples

If the UV is as you say then I'd get it in front of someone knowledgeable for an opinion. Which might not be easy bearing in mind your location.

Are you sure your UV lamp is the right wavelength for the 1d KGV reds? See this thread https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=36568

If your lamp isn't the right wavelength then odds on it's 73A

As you say, it might be a date slug error. But it might not.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

Borisdog,

My UV light is a good quality Raytech so I don't think I am wrong on the reaction. However, I do want to test it in pitch black conditions to be sure (i.e. darkroom). Haven't done that yet.

I am hoping Scott from the thread you linked jumps in and adds his opinion. I have emailed him in the past about another possible and if he thinks it worthwhile, I could mail it. I would just hate to spend that money and find out I missed something obvious.

You have to admit, it is a nice cancel though.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Hi Rehautala

A Bendigo cancel is not beyond the realms of possibility for 73B or C given that the stamp is cancelled on a Saturday. Someone travelling to Bendigo from Melbourne (the train journey was not much more than 2 hours), could very well have purchased the stamp in Melbourne and posted the letter on arrival in Bendigo or shortly afterwards. Good luck with your search. Why not send it to Scott for certification and then you will be certain? A certificate will certainly enhance it's value.

I know the post from Canada to anywhere international at the moment is a disater (I have waited for more than 2 months for letters to arrive from Alberta and Toronto) but given the potential value isn't it worth sending it DHL or Fedex when it will only take a few days to get to Oz?

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

derbyboi2,

That is a very good point about the Saturday postmark and proximity to Melbourne. I am not very familiar with Aussie postal history, so your help is appreciated.

I was hesitant to send it without asking opinions here first because I wanted to be sure the Bendigo cancel was even possible.

I have emailed Scott and am awaiting a reply. In the meantime, any other comments are more than welcome.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by satsuma »

Have you considered the time on the date stamp?
It looks to me like 5 a.m.

That might be possible if the train was caught late Friday, and the postboxes were cleared and brought to the main post office that late.

But I see no particular significance in the Saturday postmark. Any businessman or other traveller could have topped up their supply of stamps a few days before in Melbourne and posted mail late on Friday.

I presume in those days it was quite common to send an "I've arrived safely" message by mail.

It's a nice stamp, but is an occasional non-Melbourne postmark totally unexpected?

It was even then, a transport hub.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

satsuma,

Your comments are interesting and appreciated.

I guess, seeing as how the two locations are so close, that a Bendigo postmark should be very possible.

Up until now, however, I have always read/heard that this stamp (assuming it is a scarcer Cooke printing) has only been found with a Melbourne cancel.

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Kaygeevee »

rehautala wrote:
21 May 2021 03:51
SG#50 1d Lg Mult.

Possible Cooke ACSC 73(B, C) or Harrison 74

However, it is Dated 9FEB 18 (looks like a 13). This means it is too early for a Harrison printing (I believe - though I can't find the date that Harrison started printing the Lg. Mult.).

The Cooke printings are known with Melbourne (not Bendigo, Victoria) cancels.
According to the ACSC, the earliest known cancel date for a Cooke 1d Lg.Mult. is 23 Jan., 1918 (a couple of weeks earlier). The earliest known Harrison is 17 Dec., 1919.

For the record, the UV reaction seems dull/purple-red (not bright, not golden).
Needless to say, I am perplexed and would like to hear from the experts on this one.

Perhaps it is a cancel error. If someone has a reference for this specific Bendigo cancel - it might help with dating.


Image
"Up until now, however, I have always read/heard that this stamp (assuming it is a scarcer Cooke printing) has only been found with a Melbourne cancel"

Hi rehautala.

I'm not sure where you got the information that the Cooke Large Multi Watermark paper was only used in Melbourne, this is incorrect. The Cooke LMW was issued mainly to Victorian Post Offices, I've just had a quick look at my used Cooke G101 73A Carmine Pink (Sorry I'm old school and use G numbers) examples, and the majority are from or appear to be from Melbourne, but I also have some from Rochester and Swan Hill and I'm sure there are other towns out there, in the ACSC on page 4/95 note 3. it mentions the Cooke Carmine Pinks with Inverted Watermark being used at Rochester ( the one in the Royal collection is also cancelled Rochester).

I would suggest that Bendigo was the regional office, and any post offices in their region would order their sheets from Bendigo and not Melbourne, this would explain the use of G101's in Rochester and Swan Hill, I can not see Melbourne processing orders for 1 sheet of this and a ½ sheet of that. They were concerned with 1000 sheets here and 500 sheets there

In the Official correspondence I think the LMW paper is referred to as "Damask paper" but it's 20+ years ago that I was told this so I may be wrong.

When in Jan. 1918, Philatelists found out that Cooke had issued 1d red stamps on Large Multiple Watermark paper, there was a mad rush by collectors and speculators to obtain copy's, and in the Philatelic Magazines of the time the unlucky collectors in the other states were complaining about being asked to pay 2/- or 2/6 per stamp, and it was unfair that the were mainly issued in Victoria, and not the other States. , (In my time I have seen a sheet, also two strips of 24 with with Monograms both sides and one block of 30, but they may have been broken up by now :cry: :cry: )

The complaints eventually reached the PostMaster General and he asked that some more stamps to be issued on LMW paper to all states to get the pesky collectors off his back :lol: :lol:. Unfortunately Cooke was retired/sacked by this time, so it was Harrison who had the job of issuing the stamps, but the batch of inks that Cooke used had been used up, so Harrison had to use a different batch of inks, which resulted in a different shade to what Cooke LMW were.

I would suggest that the first Cooke printing on the LMW paper was the G 102-103, now I have not seen any written evidence stating this, but going by the U/V reactions which are similar to the late 1917 reactions on Single watermark paper this seems to be correct.

I can imagine Cooke saying something like "Look we've got this new paper, we better run a few sheets through the press and see what the stamps look like on it" and later he did a few more sheets, this would account for the two different shades ie. G102 and G103.

Being satisfied he then did a large run which are the G101 Carmine Pinks and the U/V reaction is similar to the G28/29's on Single watermark paper.

Going on the information that you have given here I would think you have a LMW Cooke G 102 Rose Red, but as you will be aware what I see on my screen here may be different to what the actual stamp looks like "in the flesh"

Well I hope this may be of some help to you.

Best Regard David :) :) :)

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Kaygeevee »

Hi rerhautala

I hope I've got the link right, if I have this will give you an idea of the Melbourne Printing Works dispatch department its photo 11, but the others may be of interest also.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=73174

Best regards David :) :)

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

David, that is the most comprehensive explanation I have ever read anywhere on this stamp issue.
I loved reading it - this type of postal history is the kind I love (even though I don't collect covers - yes, I know many will wonder at this...) :)

Assuming your info is accurate about the postal system, then what you say makes perfect sense. It does beg the question of why so few postmarks other than Melbourne exist. Of course, this stamp is not common on the best of days and so finding dated cancels (with town name discernible) would be even more scarce.

I got the idea of Melbourne (only) mainly from my short emails with Scott on this issue - I guess I never actually read anything on it and assumed too much.

My assessment was the same as yours (based on the UV reaction). LMW Cooke G 102 Rose Red.
It does have a Rose-red shade in real life.

Here is a scan (I know they are not of great use in discussing shades) of the three that I have (LMW) so you can see them together. The latter 2 seem like the same shade, however, they all seem to have the same UV reaction (i.e. - very little - does that indicate anything to you?)
The other two are not dated so they could be Harrison's.

I will check out the link you provided.

SG#50 1d Lg Mult shades poss Cooke Group.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by rehautala »

Kaygeevee wrote:
22 May 2021 17:25
Hi rerhautala

I hope I've got the link right, if I have this will give you an idea of the Melbourne Printing Works dispatch department its photo 11, but the others may be of interest also.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=73174

Best regards David :) :)
I just read through this thread and obviously, you are an expert in this part of Australia's postal history. It was a fascinating read. Thanks for the link.

All the best,
Richard

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

jojo wrote:
16 May 2021 23:20
Greetings.

Would appreciate assistance with this item, LMW, third wattle on right - nothing remotely similar in BW.


Image
Just giving my query a bump up ......

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

jojo wrote:
19 May 2021 17:08
Having problems with this one too.

2d orange. White flaws on face, and either side of roo. Again, my initial thought was tin-sheds, but a large rounded area of extra colour is also present in front of king's ear.


Image
Giving my query a bump ......

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Not a problem so much as a Question. I attach a pane of 30 of the KGV single watermark 1d overprinted NWPI 5th setting. As you will see the sheet seems to have been put through the perforator at an angle i.e. no upper margin at upper left gradually evening out to a normal upper margin at upper right and so on down the pane. The overprint forme (applied afterwards) is even across the piece, gradually getting higher on the stamp as you go along each row. Is this a common occurrence? Watermark lines at top and left.
1d pane sg103.jpg

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Re: Australia KGV head stamps - HELP from the experts please!

Post by jojo »

So most of my items seem to have drawn blanks, oh well .......

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Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by satsuma »

.
Can anyone plate please this please?

Image




There's a semi-circular bite out of the left hand frame at the same level as the bottom of the slash in ½, which is surely plateable if constant.

Unfortunately several of the wiki images have perf holes in exactly that spot.

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by rsellens »

satsuma wrote:
13 Jun 2021 22:55
There's a semi-circular bite out of the left hand frame at the same level as the bottom of the slash in ½, which is surely plateable if constant.

Unfortunately several of the wiki images have perf holes in exactly that spot.
I had just written this when your next post appeared.

In my opinion the bite out of the left hand frame is an artefact. However the dot in the CVT just to the left of the P is consistent with 3L42.

Ross

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by rsellens »

rsellens wrote:
14 Jun 2021 00:11
satsuma wrote:
13 Jun 2021 22:55
There's a semi-circular bite out of the left hand frame at the same level as the bottom of the slash in ½, which is surely plateable if constant.



Unfortunately several of the wiki images have perf holes in exactly that spot.
I had just written this when your next post appeared.

In my opinion the bite out of the left hand frame is an artefact. However the dot in the CVT just to the left of the P is consistent with 3L42.
3L42.jpg
3L42

Ross

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by search4d »

Ross you possibly had not noticed but the first image posted had some debris on it which has caused some confusion.
I have posted an apology for this inconvenience. I have post detailed images of areas which I think might help plate it.
slp Craigie PE.jpg
This indicates there is no mark on the base of the left hand side of the P
slp Craigie Roo's leg.jpg
This shows a void under Roo's leg
slp Craigie LL shading lines.jpg
This shows uneven shade lines near L left value tablet
slp Craigie shade lines oval.jpg
This shows broken shade line behind U of Australia
slp Craigie Emu's head.jpg
This shows short shade line above Emu's head
slp Craigie Roo's hip.jpg
This shows short shade line Roo's hip
slp Craigie shade lines.jpg
This shows even shade lines either side of halfpenny

With this many markers I would have thought it would be easier, especially when we are looking at column 6 only.

Search4d

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by rsellens »

search4d wrote:
14 Jun 2021 10:17

With this many markers I would have thought it would be easier, especially when we are looking at column 6 only.

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Search 4d

You had not mentioned it was from column 6 before. Does it have a watermark line on the right side?

As only a small number of sheets of plate 3 were single line perforated this leaves only 20 cliches that this could be. None of those cliches are listed with these flaws in Rowntree and Dix halfpenny flaw guide nor are any of the UCVs.

Ross

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by The Pom »

rsellens wrote:
15 Jun 2021 04:57

Search 4d

You had not mentioned it was from column 6 before. Does it have a watermark line on the right side?
Yes he did!


In the post from Saturday:
Also there seems to be a white flaw between P and E of halfpenny, the watermark line places this in column 6.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by rsellens »

The Pom wrote:
15 Jun 2021 05:46
rsellens wrote:
15 Jun 2021 04:57

Search 4d

You had not mentioned it was from column 6 before. Does it have a watermark line on the right side?
Yes he did!


In the post from Saturday:
Also there seems to be a white flaw between P and E of halfpenny, the watermark line places this in column 6.
Apologies. I searched though the posts several times and missed it. My 72 year old eyes must need new glasses.

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by satsuma »

Here is an enlargement from 72 dpi to 300 dpi, of "HALF PENNY" which lacks desirable clarity.

SLP detail of Halfpenny
SLP detail of Halfpenny

However it appears the area under the P could benefit from closer scrutiny.

Could you post a high res scan of this area?

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Re: Aust. 1915 KGV ½d Green single line perf - attempted census!

Post by rsellens »

satsuma wrote:
15 Jun 2021 10:49
Here is an enlargement from 72 dpi to 300 dpi, of "HALF PENNY" which lacks desirable clarity.

Image

However it appears the area under the P could benefit from closer scrutiny.

Could you post a high res scan of this area?
A scan of the entire stamp at 1200 dpi would be nice. There is no flaw in the area under the P in the central value tablet described in Rowntree and Dix.

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