GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by gavin-h »

Global Administrator wrote:
16 May 2021 03:54
.
No way.
You're right. :!:

Looking at it again, no "machine" in the world would produce a line like that. :shock:

Clearly someone has made a (very poor) attempt at cutting a zigzag line with regular scissors or a sharp blade - look at the different shapes and angles of every single "peak" and "trough" and the huge difference between top and bottom. Obviously a one-off done by hand. :idea:

Why? A slow day at a sleepy post office, or an attempt to entertain a young enthusiastic customer would be my best guesses, but we'll never know unless by a billion-to-one chance whoever did it kept a record of the how, what and why. But that'll never happen. :mrgreen:

Calling that "rouletted" is the worst case of "Emperor's New Clothes" I've ever seen. :lol:

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

I just got this Penny Black letter. I do not have a better scan right now. But am told this is plate 4.

Horncastle.jpg

Horncastle copy.jpg


I do not expect experts here to be able to plate from this poor image, but can someone tell me which town it was sent to? I can read Folkingham but what is the name above that?

Letter from Horncastle JA 17 1841. No postmarks on reverse.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Tod.Moore »

bowulf wrote:
27 May 2021 23:58


Image



I do not expect experts here to be able to plate from this poor image, but can someone tell me which town it was sent to? I can read Folkingham but what is the name above that?

Letter from Horncastle JA 17 1841. No postmarks on reverse.
Hello Bowulf. Nice cover, I think this is the place:

'Threekingham, or "Threckingham", is both a village and parish 7 miles due south of Sleaford and 11 miles east of Grantham. Swaton parish and Billingborough parish lie to the east, Folkingham parish to the west and Osbournby parish to the north west. The parish covers about 2,300 acres and includes the hamlet of Spanby and Stow.'

From the website: http://www.threekingham.org.uk/

Cheers, Tod.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

This is fascinating Tod, thanks for looking into this!

I would not have guessed/deciphered Threekingham. Wikipedia provides some etymology:

The name of the town means "home of Tric's people." Tric is a Brittonic personal name, though it is unclear whether Tric himself was a Briton or whether he was descended from Anglo-Saxon migrants but given a name borrowed from Celtic speakers who possibly lived nearby. Either way, Threekingham itself is a Germanic name, given by speakers of Old English.

A folk etymology that developed in the later Anglo-Saxon period derives the name from "home of the three kings," supposedly because three Danish kings were buried there; however, this is incorrect


Both Folkingham and Threekingham are small villages but Folkingham is the bigger of the two. I suppose that's why they wrote the address out like that. Maybe it says "N(ea)r Folkingham"?
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by CMJ »

bowulf wrote:
28 May 2021 01:08
Both Folkingham and Threekingham are small villages but Folkingham is the bigger of the two. I suppose that's why they wrote the address out like that. Maybe it says "N(ea)r Folkingham"?
Indeed, it does and an extract from a slightly later Postal Guide confirms why the address was written this way.

PostalGuide.JPG

In this case, Folkingham was the Post Town and Threekingham was a sub-office under its control.

Chris.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

bowulf wrote:
27 May 2021 23:58
I just got this Penny Black letter. I do not have a better scan right now. But am told this is plate 4.
From what I can see, rather than plate 4, I think it is from plate 7.
(On plate 4 the base is doubled and extends to the right, both of which appear to be absent on yours.)
Best wishes,
Bill

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Thank you Bill and Chris,

So I change my note to plate 7. I suppose a more detailed image is needed to be conclusive, and I will post it when I have it. Thanks for the detail about the address.

My letter was sent to Threekingham near Folkingham where the post office was located. Threekingham is located 3 km northeast of Folkingham in Lincolnshire; I just found it on a map.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Hello experts,

This Penny Black letter is selling on eBay. in a couple of days. No image of reverse side is available, but seller says it's postmarked Nov. 1840.

s-l1600.jpg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384183543494?hash=item59731fa6c6:g:hVAAAOSwIpNgq7QJ

But was the black Maltese cross in use in Nov. 1840. My notes say that it was used commonly from Feb. 1841. Should I be suspicious of this letter? (I'm not intending to bid though).
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Badu »

bowulf wrote:
29 May 2021 19:33
But was the black Maltese cross in use in Nov. 1840. My notes say that it was used commonly from Feb. 1841. Should I be suspicious of this letter? (I'm not intending to bid though).
A quick google shows Jermyn St is in London, so this looks to me like an experimental black cross - this was in use in London from 31 August 1840 through to the official introduction in Feb 1841.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by CMJ »

bowulf wrote:
29 May 2021 19:33
But was the black Maltese cross in use in Nov. 1840. My notes say that it was used commonly from Feb. 1841. Should I be suspicious of this letter? (I'm not intending to bid though).
The transition from red to black ink used to apply the Maltese Cross did start on 10 February 1841 for mail posted in London to elesewhere - and a few days/weeks later at Post Offices in the remainder of Great Britain and Ireland.

However, for mail posted in London and to be delivered in London (the London Two Penny post area), black ink had been used consistently since 31 August 1840. This is the so-called "experimental London black cross" but, whilst it might have been an experiment to start with, the reality is that it became the norm and with the amount of mail within London is in fact relatively common.

This letter was posted in Jermyn Street and addressed to Lamb's Conduit Street (The Foundling Hospital) both within this London area, so it would be normal for a November 1840 usage to have a black cross.

Chris.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Excellent, thank you for this information about this experimental black cross which was in fact quite normative. So I take it the Jermyn St. postmark indicates a receiving house for mail?

I was suspicious of the letter at first (if the stamp belonged to cover), but now I think it's quite a desirable piece in spite of the close cut right margin. And now I have done advertisement for it here!
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Identification off 1840 penny black.

Post by Suzuki62 »

Good evening all, I am a new member.
I have a 1840 penny black. The lettering on the bottom of the stamp,going from left to right,S L.
It has a brown Maltese cross on it with 4 uneven borders.
Could someone tell me what plate number it is
Thanks for sharing your time.
John.

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Re: Identification off 1840 penny black.

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Re: Identification off 1840 penny black.

Post by Suzuki62 »

20210610_204944.jpg
Hi all, could someone put a plate number on this penny black.
Thanks for your time,
John

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Re: Identification off 1840 penny black.

Post by GB1840 »

I think probably plate 1b, but the scan could be better to be absolutely sure.

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Re: Identification off 1840 penny black.

Post by Global Administrator »

GB1840 wrote:
11 Jun 2021 21:23
.. the scan could be better to be absolutely sure.
Loading it upright might also assist those you are hoping to get FREE advice from. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Hello experts,

I apologize but this is the best scan I have for now. I took my first stab at plating and will venture a guess that this is plate 1a. I focused on the letter E which is oriented low and with a slight tilt to upper right.

s-l1600-4.jpg

I used this website for plating which has good images of all positions. I think it is very good!

https://www.stampsoftheworld.co.uk/wiki/Category:Penny_Black_Plating
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

I forgot to say that the stamp shown in the post above is on a letter from July 12 1840. That might help a little in plating.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

Hello Bowulf,

Your 1d black lettered 'L-E' as shown is either from plate 1a or 1b.
On balance I think plate 1b is favourite.
Best wishes,
Bill

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Fine Bill, thanks, I guess I was half-right. With the online plating tools I will continue to hone my plating skills.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

Image


.
bowulf and others.

We have very savvy members here who can offer FREE plating help, but loading up tiny images like this does NOT assist them.

The new software allows images up to 1125 x 1125 to be loaded

Like this size please - all scanners can give you this size -

Image
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Another Penny Black on cover from Carlisle 26 Feb. 1841. half-erased pencil notation bottom left says "plate 10 PG re-entry O-flaw state 2".

I'm noticing a strange design of the rays upper right, and an elevated P with two dots over the P, looks like an umlaut (but these may be ink from the postmark).

If the notation is correct, what would the re-entry refer to? and Is the O-flaw usually divided into different stages? I hope the note is correct because I think pl. 10 is one of the better ones, though not quite a pl. 11!

1d.jpg
1d copy.jpg
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rog »

Yes I think this is Plate 10 too - none of the other plates have that unusual ray flaw.

Here's a reference photo from the Nissen plate collection for PG below.
and an elevated P with two dots over the P, looks like an umlaut
Yes, looks like the postmark - there's nothing there normally.

1840 Penny Black Position PG Plate 10
1840 Penny Black Position PG Plate 10

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Thanks Rog, yes that NE corner ray nails it I think; it looks like two wings coming out on the sides.

Do you have any idea what the noted re-entry might refer to?

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rog »

It's just that the sheet was printed more than once to counter weak impressions from worn plates. So they run it through again. Here's a topic on that which will give you a better idea:

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=25243

The O flaw does appear in stages as far as I am aware.

From Spink:
The "O" flaw - This is a white blob that develops on the right of the "O" of "ONE" and only occurs on plates VII, VIII, IX and X.
https://www.spink.com/media/view?id=29
Last edited by Rog on 02 Jul 2021 01:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

The Spink page is a good rudimentary intro. The Stampboards page on re-entry I had seen. But is there anything on my stamp that would suggest we have a re-entered plate? I cannot see any indication of it.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rog »

I'm no expert on Penny Black re-entries so hopefully someone will come along later and comment.

I will say that your image is rather fuzzy - to give people a better chance of spotting something I recommend that you post a clearer and larger scan. These details are often hard to spot otherwise.

A plate 10 on cover is a nice find though :)

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Thanks again Rog,

I will post better image as soon as it's possible for me (letter is not with me yet). I was happy to find this plate 10 letter and it was not more expensive than the other penny black letter I bought. Less than 200 usd for this one. And I liked the Kirkby Stephen town name!

Now I need just the plate 11!

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

bowulf wrote:
02 Jul 2021 01:04
Thanks Rog, yes that NE corner ray nails it I think; it looks like two wings coming out on the sides.

Do you have any idea what the noted re-entry might refer to?
The "two wings" in the NE star are the re-entry marks.

Three other stamps, PK, SI and TA have similar marks and are listed as "original re-entries", i.e. the re-entry occurred during plate manufacture, before any stamps were printed from it.
Last edited by emason on 02 Jul 2021 05:36, edited 2 times in total.
Best wishes,
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Here is my example of the same re-entry in red ink. If you have the latest SG Specialised catalogue all the major re-entries are illustrated, this is a very good example of one.
Attachments
PG Plate 10 Re-entry.jpg

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rog »

emason wrote:
02 Jul 2021 04:51
The "two wings" in the NE star are the re-entry marks.

Three other stamps, PK, SI and TA have similar marks and are listed as "original re-entries", i.e. the re-entry occurred during plate manufacture, before any stamps were printed from it.
Thanks for teaching me something today :)

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

Thanks for this mason and GB1840, very informative.

There are some minor technical details here that I fail to fathom. For example, how a re-entry can be an original part of a plate manufacture; I thought it happened only when the same plate was re-entered by the printer to correct a weak first impression (and with slight mis-alignment occurring). But I will continue to study this.

The penny red illustration is excellent and shows identical features, clearly. The O-flaw is very clear too (stage 2?).

I appreciate my recent purchase even more now that I have this info (by the way, the addressee solicitors Hewitson still have their office in the centre of Kirkby Stephen today!)

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

bowulf wrote:
02 Jul 2021 10:59


I thought it happened only when the same plate was re-entered by the printer to correct a weak first impression (and with slight mis-alignment occurring).

The penny red illustration is excellent and shows identical features, clearly. The O-flaw is very clear too (stage 2?).
Allan

You are quite correct in your description, the slight misalignment of the transfer roller causing the marks seen NE, called a non-coincident re-entry. In this case it occurred before the plate went to press, other instances occurred when a worn plate was repaired after being at press creating a second or later state of the plate.

On plate 10 much of the B and C rows were repaired once and in state 2 the 'O' flaw disappears and other differences in the impressions can be seen compared with the original state.

Yes, PG would be stage 2 of the 'O' flaw.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by bowulf »

I see, GB1840. Thanks for helping me understand this.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Markfr1 »

Hi everyone, I’ve recently purchased during lockdown three penny blacks and any help in identifying the plate numbers would be greatly appreciated. The LC I think (broadly) is 1A or 5, but I’m hoping someone out here can nail it and the other 2 down :D


66D11EB0-12A3-4A77-AB7D-ADA7B7B9AF18.jpeg
763B5A72-B3C5-400E-81EA-DF583A1E8177.jpeg
A53F0037-7A5C-4DD1-A331-86293123E8BD.jpeg
Mark

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Mark

DL is a nice example of a re-entry from plate 8, see the mark NE and in the 'D' square, this is illustrated in the SG specialised catalogue.

LC looks to be plate 1b with NW ray flaws.

Suggest you straighten the scans to aid help in plating and OC looks truncated at bottom, might be 1b.

regards

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Markfr1 »

Hi GB1840, thanks very much for your swift post. Here are the straightened photos. I hope they confirm the excellent news you gave in your reply. I have added the space saver penny black too and one 1841 penny red. I hope this is ok


F0147C50-BC69-40A9-B004-0083BB828C36.jpeg
E96463DE-60B3-4508-8E21-356D67E4379F.jpeg
7C6D2F9E-E9F3-4FD5-8E4E-8460584FE95C.jpeg
FEE7688E-68D1-4842-9853-054B7FC31003.jpeg
CBFB87DD-A726-407A-8BED-E63C9E9E745C.jpeg
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

KJ is plate 9 with prominent horizontal guide line and shows the 'O' flaw.

I now think OC is plate 2 showing the recorded mark (ref. Litchfield) in 'T' POSTAGE and NW flaws.

DE looks to have an 'O' flaw and plate 8 is I think correct.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Markfr1 »

Thanks GB1840, very much appreciated

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GlenStephens »

.
Can any of our experts take a stab at the plate number of this guy please?

Appears to have part of that white flaw after O?

Thanks in advance. :)


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Pretty sure this is from plate 10, the red MX cancellation is very scarce on this plate.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by admin »

.
Thanks for that .. sure hope you are correct re Plate #10 .. I have to fluke a decent plate once in a blue moon! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, saw Red MX on those are 1500 quid for nice copies in SG, so they can't be common, that is for sure. :D

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Yes agree, so worth getting a second opinion I think to be sure.

Plate 7 is the only other candidate and is close, but to me isn't quite right.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

GB1840 wrote:
16 Jul 2021 01:10
Yes agree, so worth getting a second opinion I think to be sure.

Plate 7 is the only other candidate and is close, but to me isn't quite right.
Yes, I agree - plate 10.

The right hand 'F' is too central and too upright to be plate 7. Also the 'O' flaw is too well developed.
Best wishes,
Bill

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

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Many thanks to Bill as well. Well it looks like I got a scarcer one there. :)

Have loaded to my page.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Sorry guys but it's plate 4.

Pretty much the first thing I notice with this stamp is the weak and ill-defined upper left edge of the design.

This is generally not a characteristic of plate 10, it's seen on earlier plates.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

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Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Global Administrator wrote:
16 Jul 2021 19:50
.
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
Sorry I should have added: what looks like part of an O-flaw on this stamp, I think is really a small area of dry print that is not uncommonly seen around the letters of ONE PENNY or TWO PENCE.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rigs »

pertinax wrote:
16 Jul 2021 19:57
Global Administrator wrote:
16 Jul 2021 19:50
.
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
Sorry I should have added: what looks like part of an O-flaw on this stamp, I think is really a small area of dry print that is not uncommonly seen around the letters of ONE PENNY or TWO PENCE.

Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Rigs wrote:
16 Jul 2021 20:01

Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:


dry.print.jpg

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