Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Kainnikanada
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

dj_claz

The apparent worn shading line above the 'PENCE' is typical of many die 2B cliches of the Roo values.

No listing in the ACSC of the short flaw which appears to be a scratch.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Here is a 5/, 2nd watermark example with a interesting left bottom frame :D

NOT in ACSC or wiki - any ideas anyone?
5- roo.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp wrote:
20 Feb 2021 00:06
NOT in ACSC or wiki - any ideas anyone?
Pampstamp,

Your rhetorical posts should be on the the thread where you boast about items from your collection.

These types of posts where you know the answer but choose to simulate it in the form of a question don't belong here.

Note part of the title of this thread is "Help from the experts".
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by dj_claz »

Thanks Kainnikanada...always good to learn a bit more of the minefield!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

dj_claz wrote:
20 Feb 2021 06:19
...always good to learn a bit more of the minefield!
dj_claz

I forgot to mention that the scratch has not been discussed in any research articles published in the ACCCNSW and BSAP Bulletins since the mid 1980s.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Pampstamp wrote:
20 Feb 2021 00:06
Here is a 5/, 2nd watermark example with a interesting left bottom frame :D

NOT in ACSC or wiki - any ideas anyone?

Image

Looks like position L3. Two white flaws on roo's right leg.


5- roo.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by dj_claz »

Kainnikanada wrote:
20 Feb 2021 06:56
dj_claz wrote:
20 Feb 2021 06:19
...always good to learn a bit more of the minefield!
dj_claz

I forgot to mention that the scratch has not been discussed in any research articles published in the ACCCNSW and BSAP Bulletins since the mid 1980s.
Forgive my ignorance but do you think that this means it would be a constant flaw or just a minor defect on this particular stamp?

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

It's just a random one-off.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

dj_claz,

The 6d roo is not a well researched denomination. Other than what's in the ACSC there's not much info.

Here's a list of the articles I have in my database for the past 30+ years:

2021-02-19_13-58-49.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Looks like position L3. Two white flaws on roo's right leg.



Image
[/quote]

I doubt it - L3 has a listed flaw -"White line adjacent to coast in Bight"

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Kainnikanada wrote:
20 Feb 2021 04:01
.

These types of posts where you know the answer but choose to simulate it in the form of a question don't belong here.
WOW!! :roll: :roll:

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

For those interested I can now confirm its called Chatter Print!!

What I didn't notice was two white flaws below roo's right leg, and what seems to be a break in coast of
Gulf of Carpentaria :D

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by dj_claz »

Kainnikanada wrote:
20 Feb 2021 08:06
dj_claz,

The 6d roo is not a well researched denomination. Other than what's in the ACSC there's not much info.

Here's a list of the articles I have in my database for the past 30+ years:

Image
Thank you! What a wealth of information you/this board are able to give us - it is always appreciated.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

This 1d has me stuck. It has a clear break in the coast of the Gulf of Carpentaria.

The nearest I can find to this is CL49, but the break is different & mine lacks the flaw on the "d". Also, plate C stamps are Die I, and mine looks to be Die II.

Any clues?

My stamp:


IMG_0028.jpg


CL49 from the Wiki:


CL49.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Fleurieu55 »

The Pom,

Both stamps also clearly show a break on the left side of the last A in Australia, just above the cross bar, if that may help identify position.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Fleurieu55 wrote:
21 Feb 2021 07:39
The Pom,

Both stamps also clearly show a break on the left side of the last A in Australia, just above the cross bar, if that may help identify position.
The flaw you refer to is a Master Die flaw which is present on all Kangaroos except the redrawn two shilling.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Frank,

Did you once post a sketch of a basic Roo die with the recurring master die flaws? I recall you discussing some of those flaws.

Could you create something that we could use on this thread and perhaps append it to each of the wikis as a general reference item?
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Fleurieu55

Early on in my collecting days of NWPI I too thought many of the Master Die flaws Frank referred to were unique to cliches.


...until I saw the repetition amongst the various denominations. To compound the issue. these flaws are not necessarily constant i.e. they can be over-inked or were the result of uneven pressure of the working die (a copy of the master with the correct figure of value and the words of denomination in the plugs) during the manufacture of the plates ergo are not seen on every cliche which is very similar to the Die 2B 'ST' outer frame break that is not always visible.

I don't believe the majority of these flaws are well publicized or generally discussed.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Fleurieu55 »

Kainnikanada,

thanks for enlightening me in regard to the master die flaws





regards

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

I think this is a good time to mention to readers of this thread that we have a wiki documenting the visit of a group of collectors to Canberra to inspect the Master Roo die. It had the 9d value plug and words of value plug inserted for manufacturing the 9d working die.

Here's a couple of illustrations. The articles are detailed and provide a good insight into the manufacture of the master die and the working dies. Well worth a peak.

KYQeA92.jpg

Eo5SXdW.jpg


Here's the link:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53090
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Tod.Moore »

First Watermark 3d. Olive, Die 1.

ACSC shows a picture of 12U(d), Unlocated Variety: colour flaw off Queensland coast. The illustration in the catalogue has the flaw further off the coast. Here it is closer to the coast and further to the North, near Cairns. Is this a constant flaw?

Australia Kangaroo stamp, 1913 First Watermark 3d. Olive, Die 1.
Australia Kangaroo stamp, 1913 First Watermark 3d. Olive, Die 1.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Tod.Moore wrote:
28 Feb 2021 11:14
First Watermark 3d. Olive, Die 1.
ACSC shows a picture of 12U(d), Unlocated Variety: colour flaw off Queensland coast. The illustration in the catalogue has the flaw further off the coast. Is this a constant flaw?
My December 2019 BSAP Bulletin article identified numerous previously unlocated constant varieties (UCV) on the 3d Roo. This flaw was not one of them notwithstanding I was able to inspect several First watermarked NWPI blocks of 30.

The flaw you've shown was probably transient.

Similar to the flaw you've described my research into the Die 2 1/- flaws has revealed that the ACSC listing for 30(U)d is also transient and restricted to First watermark ergo it's not a plate flaw.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Tod.Moore »

Kainnikanada wrote:
28 Feb 2021 11:41
Tod.Moore wrote:
28 Feb 2021 11:14
First Watermark 3d. Olive, Die 1.
ACSC shows a picture of 12U(d), Unlocated Variety: colour flaw off Queensland coast. The illustration in the catalogue has the flaw further off the coast. Is this a constant flaw?
My December 2019 BSAP Bulletin article identified numerous previously unlocated constant varieties (UCV) on the 3d Roo. This flaw was not one of them notwithstanding I was able to inspect several First watermarked NWPI blocks of 30.

The flaw you've shown was probably transient.

Similar to the flaw you've described my research into the Die 2 1/- flaws has revealed that the ACSC listing for 30(U)d is also transient and restricted to First watermark ergo it's not a plate flaw.
Many thanks Kainnikanada, for clearing that up, a transient variety seems likely. :)

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Can't see this one in the ACSC or Wiki. Flaw by Cape York. Is it known?


Roo.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by mobbor »

This would appear to be 2R36 with the break in shading over first "N" of "NINE", but it's actually 3rd watermark, with no sign of the -additional white flaw over "IA" of 'AUSTRALIA'. (?)

Image
mobbor

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

mobbor wrote:
14 Mar 2021 16:06
This would appear to be 2R36 with the break in shading over first "N" of "NINE", but it's actually 3rd watermark, with no sign of the -additional white flaw over "IA" of 'AUSTRALIA'. (?)

Image
mobbor
Your copy is 2R36. The large white flaw over IA appears to have existed only in 1st Watermark as stated by Banwell & Parsons. My only copy of this cliche is post marked 31Aug 1916 which is a month after first issue in 3rd Watermark - no evidence of a large flaw.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

mobbor,

Yours is probably 3rd state, where the flaw above the last 'A' is barely visible (Banwell & Parsons suggest a slight bump up/retouch to the spot); my example shown below in 1st watermark is 2nd state.

079.4.1.06.00.012-01.2R36 adjusted.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by mobbor »

Thanks.
mobbor

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by josto »

Hi!

here is my only copy of 2R36 I can contribute to this flaw discussion, it`s first wmk and I think it is also 2nd state!?
Australia kangaroo 9d 1st wmk flaw.jpg
Greetings

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

mobbor & josto,

Here's the excerpt from the 2005 revision of Banwell & Parson's checklist. I don't believe it necessary to include the illustrations of the other flaws on this cliche.

Banwell & Parsons REV p28 -02 2R36 collage -01.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Here's a 1/- Die 2 Roo article I'll be having published in both the ACCCNSW & BSAP future Bulletins.

It's documenting my identification of Pane 1R31-60.

012.0d Roo 1R31-60 BSAP -01 - 0001.jpg

012.0d Roo 1R31-60 BSAP -01 - 0002.jpg

012.0d Roo 1R31-60 BSAP -01 - 0003.jpg

012.0d Roo 1R31-60 BSAP -01 - 0004.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

The Pom wrote:
09 Mar 2021 23:06
Can't see this one in the ACSC or Wiki. Flaw by Cape York. Is it known?



Image
Not by me and evidently not by Adams, Bell and Pope.

Cheers Chris,

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Can anyone tell me whether there is an early state of ACSC14(U)e 'Break in lower frame below N'. The stamp is slightly over-inked with no Dia 2A break and the weakness over the shading above NCE is missing but is is indubitably Die 2b. There is evidence of the outer frame break over ST and the 'Harrison' break at top right is also apparent.
The overseas rate to foreign countries was set at 3d on the 1st October some 12 days before the cover was posted.




Australia 3d Die 2b on cover.jpg
Attachments
Australia 3d Die 2b on cover close up.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Lesley »

Need some help with this 1/- die 11b ? first Water Mark. Reading Rod's 1/- research ? 2R46 but not a exact match.

Break in shade line 1.5mm from left frame and 6mm from top frame under A of AUSTRALIA.

? Small notch ,V shaped opposite O in ONE
Scan_20210325.jpg
Scan_20210325 (2).jpg
Thanks,

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Lesley

It is a Die2B. Die 2A break present, no Queensland break and breaks above and below N of ONE.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Frank

It can't be Die 2b. If it were it would be third, not 1st Watermark. All first watermark 1/- are Die 2.

If Les has misidentified the watermark perhaps but otherwise impossible. It is unfortunate that the cancellation obscures at least 3 of the 6 pointers to Die 2b but one of the main ones (the weakness in shading over the NG of shilling is missing), The inking on the left hand side of the stamp is inconsistent.

To me it is Die 1 every day of the week.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

As an added pointer it is likely the CDS is from October (191)8. If so it cannot be Die 2b as these were not issued until April 1919.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Sorry I should have said Die 2 every day of the week. A KRAFT moment.......

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
28 Mar 2021 17:40
As an added pointer it is likely the CDS is from October (191)8. If so it cannot be Die 2b as these were not issued until April 1919.
Derbyboi

I agree with Frank - IMO its a Die 2b :D

The CDS is 1928. Die 2A break present, no Queensland break.

If you look closely at the top right hand corner :shock:
The junction of the inner frame line at top right corner seems to have a break!!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Ergo it can’t be first watermark!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
29 Mar 2021 00:19
Ergo it can’t be first watermark!
Definitely a 3rd wmk IMO!
Base of the crown to narrow :D

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Agreed. I was thrown by the original description as first watermark.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Les,

It's a 3rd watermarked Die 2B - the clincher is the gap of the inner frame lines at the upper right corner.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
29 Mar 2021 01:58
Agreed. I was thrown by the original description as first watermark.
Robert,

As in the Geo V thread asking the Stampboarder to post a scan of the back to show the watermark can be very revealing i.e. misidentification.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Thanks Rod

especially when it is descibed in the text as first watermark! It is obviously Die 2b and to be honest I should have trusted my eyes rather than the text.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
28 Mar 2021 17:36

To me it is Die 1 every day of the week.
Derbyboi2

If you have an ACSC I suggest you read the section on the 1/= Roo. Not a mention of Die1 for any issue of this denomination. Die 1 was used for ½d,1d,2d and 3d only (page 2/8 of ACSC),

Not sure why you seem to think that my indicators for Die 2B are not worth anything.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Frank

I agree with you. If you look at my second post I corrected to Die 2. What threw me was your mention of first watermark when it must be third to be Die 2b.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
29 Mar 2021 19:30
Frank

I agree with you. If you look at my second post I corrected to Die 2. What threw me was your mention of first watermark when it must be third to be Die 2b.
Where did I state it was First watermark.

Regards
Frank

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Derbyboi2
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Hi Frank

In your first post with the downloaded picture you started 'Die 2b first watermark'. Thats what threw me in the first place.

Robert

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langtounlad
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
30 Mar 2021 00:16
Hi Frank

In your first post with the downloaded picture you started 'Die 2b first watermark'. Thats what threw me in the first place.

Robert
Rubbish! I did not submit a post with a downloaded picture nor did I make any mention of the watermark.

Regards
Frank

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