Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by PhilipAdams »

mobbor wrote:I went and borrowed the BW catalogue as I know virtually nothing about these. I found something immediately:-

Image

Coloured flaw off coast of Sydney. BW 1(1)f. Supposedly 1R40.

This is the right-hand stamp of a pair. There is a top marginal watermark line, and as you can see, a right jubilee line. So it should be No. 6.(???)

Edit: Ubobo, that was quick. Don't tell me you can't see this flaw.
Thank you mobbor for showing interest in the humble green Roo.

BW1(1)f is correctly plated at 1R40. If my scanner were working, then I would show you three blocks (12, 18, and a sheet of 2x60) that are conclusive.

You correctly identify your stamp as coming from position 6 - in this case 1R6.

See the following WIKI entry

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=18421&start=50#p661709

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

Thanks Philip. They are remarkably similar.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by PhilipAdams »

They are.

If I had seen your example, without the watermark and border evidence, I would have immediately assumed 1R40.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by Kainnikanada »

A fellow collector asked for identification of this flawed lower left of the 2nd 'S' of 'SHILLINGS' on a 3rd watermarked 2/- roo.
Image
Image
Searching my NWPI collection failed to turn up an example. I thought it might be just a weak shading line but none of those I looked at were even similar.

I then found this example in one of the scans of 8 NWPI blocks of 30 Bob Parsons gave me. I think the flaw is constant.
Image
The flawed 'S' is from 1L41 (shown in red in the schematic). The confirming ASCS-listed flaws in the block are from: 1L33, 39 & 43 as shown below and in black in the schematic.
ImageImageImage
Image
I would like help with two things.

1. confirmation that this is a flaw by seeing a couple additional examples

2. evidence of at least one (if possible) large multiple with one of the other listed 1L33 or 39 flaws. Just to prove it's from 1L41.

Thanks,
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by manfaefife »

Does this die IIa 1d look like GR60 with the dent in the left frame ?
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by david3461 »

Hi Rod

My collection has yielded the following examples. I could only find examples in the third watermark and in the fifth overprint setting - Sg 115. Nothing from SG97 or SG97W... Might be a little variation in the flaw as well...Hope they help.
Cheers David

Image

Block of 4

Image

Image

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by Kainnikanada »

David,

Just what I needed to see! Singles would have been helpful but...the block conclusively proves the horizontal (row) positioning albeit assuming no substitutions occurred.

The example from my scan collection was also 3rd watermark SG 115.

I see you have both shades of SG 115.

Thanks.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

After what happened in relation to 1(1)f, I thought I better check whether this is actually 2(c)h:-

Image

It's the middle stamp of a vertical strip of 3.

It has the notch in the lower right side of the figure 1, and the break in the left side of the circle (just), but the lower right side of 1 is still intact. (?)
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

I also wanted to check whether this was a Die 11/1 pair (great postmark):-

Image

The left-hand stamp-

Image

And the right-

Image

I note that the catalogue lists a Die 1/11 pair, but not the other way round.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by Kainnikanada »

mobbor,

Both are Die 1s.

The catalogue is definitely incorrect. Only horizontal pair combos are Die 2/1; of which 4 exist per pane of 30 - 38-9, 47-8, 51-2 and 59-60. Vertical pairs can only have Die 2 above 1 twice. Die 1 above 2 is quite frequent.

The red areas seen below are the Die 2s (a scan from a Stampboards' member's collection):
Image
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by PhilipAdams »

mobbor wrote:After what happened in relation to 1(1)f, I thought I better check whether this is actually 2(c)h:-

Image

It's the middle stamp of a vertical strip of 3.

It has the notch in the lower right side of the figure 1, and the break in the left side of the circle (just), but the lower right side of 1 is still intact. (?)
It certainly appears to be 2(c)h, which is from position CL42, with a break at 9.00 o'clock on the value circle and a notch on the right side of 1 of 1d immediately above the serif.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by josto »

Here are two examples I found which I think are CL42. The OS example seems to be a quite late example with a large break in the value circle and the 1.

Image

Image

Greetings

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

Thank you Philip and Josto.

Regarding 1(1)f, I have made a suggestion in the 'Suggested changes to the ACSC catalogue' thread:-

1. Include 1R6 with 1R40 as 1(1)f. There are precents for this; or
2. Add a note to the effect that 1R6 is very similar and easy to confuse with 1R40.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by josto »

Hi!

I had a look through my 1/2d kangaroos and found three candidates which look quite similar. After a quick look at the WIKI, I`m not yet really sure which positions they are, as I`ve seen 1R36 is also a flaw which looks quite similar to 1R6 and 1R40. Here are the three examples!

1. example: (I can`t see a watermark line, the watermark is shifted low, so I can exclude 1R6 as position)

Image

Image

2. example: (I can`t see a watermark line, the watermark is shifted high, so it could be 1R6 as well as 1R40 or 1R36)

Image

Image

3. example: (there is a vertical watermark line to the left, when seen from back, so it could be 1R6 or 1R36, I can exclude 1R40)

Image

Image

Any suggestions would be great! I hope I could contribute something to the mystery!?

Greetings

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

I'm surprised this cliché is not listed, as it has 2 relatively prominent flaws. Two examples follow:-

Image

Image

Notch in 1, broken coastline ingulf of Carpentaria and a small colour flaw inside the bottom right corner. The 2nd one also appears to have an island within the gulf, though it is largely obscured.

I would like to know the plate position please.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

I also wish to know whether this is a recurrent flaw:-

Image

The left end of a shading line is missing as it reaches the N.S.W. coast, almost opposite the end of the roo's tail. I have found many copies, often with different flaws in other positions.

After this, I promise to leave you alone. Thanks for all your help so far.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by rsellens »

mobbor wrote:I'm surprised this cliché is not listed, as it has 2 relatively prominent flaws. Two examples follow:-

Notch in 1, broken coastline ingulf of Carpentaria and a small colour flaw inside the bottom right corner. The 2nd one also appears to have an island within the gulf, though it is largely obscured.

I would like to know the plate position please.
Mobbor this is CL49. Scarcity factor 1. The constant flaws are the notch in the 1 and the broken coastline in the Gulf of Carpentaria.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by rsellens »

mobbor wrote:I also wish to know whether this is a recurrent flaw:-

Image

The left end of a shading line is missing as it reaches the N.S.W. coast, almost opposite the end of the roo's tail. I have found many copies, often with different flaws in other positions.

After this, I promise to leave you alone. Thanks for all your help so far.
I have noticed over time that the left end of the 7th shading line up from the point below it (Cape Howe on the border of NSW and Victoria) is present on many of the kangaroo cliches of all dies and all values. I have no explanation but one of the gurus might be able to enlighten us.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by rsellens »

josto wrote:Hi!

I had a look through my 1/2d kangaroos and found three candidates which look quite similar. After a quick look at the WIKI, I`m not yet really sure which positions they are, as I`ve seen 1R36 is also a flaw which looks quite similar to 1R6 and 1R40. Here are the three examples!

Any suggestions would be great! I hope I could contribute something to the mystery!?

Greetings
Josto

There has been a bit of a discussion on the flaw(s) in the last few posts on this page.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22674&start=400

They may help or may confuse you more..

Ross

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by Kainnikanada »

rsellens wrote: I have noticed over time that the left end of the 7th shading line up from the point below it (Cape Howe on the border of NSW and Victoria) is present on many of the kangaroo cliches of all dies and all values. I have no explanation but one of the gurus might be able to enlighten us.
Ross
Ross,

Buckman published an article in the ACCCNSW Bulletin three decades ago describing a visit by Hieronimus, Pailthorpe and Sheppard to The Canberra Postal Museum. It's a discussion of the working die they viewed of the 9d Roo. No mention of that weakness although it is quite variable as you state and evident on many Roos. See post 47 of 52 of the wiki I creted for ths article.

Somewhere in this thread I think Frank had mentioned his theory of the nature of this weakness. Since it occurs on many roos it must be a weakness of the master die. I doubt if it fortuitously manifested itself on random cliches of all denominations.

Here's the link: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53090
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by mobbor »

Thanks Rod, Ross and Josto.

I had no idea there is yet another similar flaw on R36. That flaw appears to be virtually horizontal.

And I have found yet another cliche with a bit of the jubilee line still attached, and my best guess is R36.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by PhilipAdams »

josto wrote:Hi!

I had a look through my 1/2d kangaroos and found three candidates which look quite similar. After a quick look at the WIKI, I`m not yet really sure which positions they are, as I`ve seen 1R36 is also a flaw which looks quite similar to 1R6 and 1R40. Here are the three examples!

1. example: (I can`t see a watermark line, the watermark is shifted low, so I can exclude 1R6 as position)

Image

Image

2. example: (I can`t see a watermark line, the watermark is shifted high, so it could be 1R6 as well as 1R40 or 1R36)

Image

Image

3. example: (there is a vertical watermark line to the left, when seen from back, so it could be 1R6 or 1R36, I can exclude 1R40)

Image

Image

Any suggestions would be great! I hope I could contribute something to the mystery!?

Greetings
Thanks for this josto,

You are right there are three positions where there is a coloured flaw off the NSW coast in roughly the same position. Those positions are 1R6 (already discussed), 1R36 and 1R40. Go to the WIKI to get illustrations of all three flaws.

Stamps from the three positions have different watermark border lines and different secondary flaw markers.



1R6 has a top and RH watermark line from the front (assuming the lines are in their correct positions)
1R36 has a RH watermark line from the front (assuming the line is in its correct position)
1R40 has no watermark line

According to the Pope monograph, the key secondary markers are:

1R6
Break in 2nd shading line above last A of AUSTRALIA and in later printings a notch in upper frame above US of AUSTRALIA. In late printings there is also a white area between feet of last A of AUSTRALIA joined to crossbar above.

1R36
Coloured flaw joining apex of inner frame to lower outer frame below it.

1R40
Nothing noted.

It would seem therefore that your first stamp is 1R40, with no watermark line and no secondary marker. The second stamp is probably 1R36, with the coloured flaw in the apex, while the third stamp appears also to be 1R36 with both the apex flaw and the watermark line.

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by rsellens »

Kainnikanada wrote:
rsellens wrote: I have noticed over time that the left end of the 7th shading line up from the point below it (Cape Howe on the border of NSW and Victoria) is present on many of the kangaroo cliches of all dies and all values. I have no explanation but one of the gurus might be able to enlighten us.
Ross
Ross,

Buckman published an article in the ACCCNSW Bulletin three decades ago describing a visit by Hieronimus, Pailthorpe and Sheppard to The Canberra Postal Museum. It's a discussion of the working die they viewed of the 9d Roo. No mention of that weakness although it is quite variable as you state and evident on many Roos. See post 47 of 52 of the wiki I creted for ths article.
Thanks for that Rod. It will give me a bit of light reading tonight.

Ross

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Post by langtounlad »

Kainnikanada wrote:
rsellens wrote: I have noticed over time that the left end of the 7th shading line up from the point below it (Cape Howe on the border of NSW and Victoria) is present on many of the kangaroo cliches of all dies and all values. I have no explanation but one of the gurus might be able to enlighten us.
Ross
Ross,

Buckman published an article in the ACCCNSW Bulletin three decades ago describing a visit by Hieronimus, Pailthorpe and Sheppard to The Canberra Postal Museum. It's a discussion of the working die they viewed of the 9d Roo. No mention of that weakness although it is quite variable as you state and evident on many Roos. See post 47 of 52 of the wiki I creted for ths article.

Somewhere in this thread I think Frank had mentioned his theory of the nature of this weakness. Since it occurs on many roos it must be a weakness of the master die. I doubt if it fortuitously manifested itself on random cliches of all denominations.

Here's the link: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53090
Rod

I did a quick trawl through my current holdings and can confirm that I have seen it on all dies. Of interest I have pairs of 1d Die 2 and 2/- maroon with this flaw on both cliches. I have not done any more work on this as I cannot see any benefit of more work.

As an aside - was looking at a Philip Adams reply to Josto above and noticed another possible Master Die flaw which I had not recorded before. On the top of the last A of Australia between the left leg and the top flat is a gap. A quick look at a mob of 9d Roos on my computer desk shows it is probably constant but inked in on heavier prints.

Regards
Frank

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by Kainnikanada »

langtounlad wrote: As an aside - was looking at a Philip Adams reply to Josto above and noticed another possible Master Die flaw which I had not recorded before. On the top of the last A of Australia between the left leg and the top flat is a gap. A quick look at a mob of 9d Roos on my computer desk shows it is probably constant but inked in on heavier prints.
Regards
Frank
Frank,

Thanks.

I agree it should be constant and pay no attention to it when looking at any Roo. It is not shown as a flaw on the working die of the 9d as seen in the previous article.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by manfaefife »

Is this simply over-inking at bottom right corner of this 9d ?
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Post by Kainnikanada »

Donald,
It could be 4R16 noted as a retouch to the bottom right corner (seen 3rd watermark and later). It looks similar to a copy I have.
Image[Image
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by manfaefife »

Kainnikanada wrote:Donald,
It could be 4R16 noted as a retouch to the bottom right corner (seen 3rd watermark and later). It looks similar to a copy I have.
Image[Image
Yes i can agree with that top left corner is similar as well, thank you.
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Post by langtounlad »

Donald

Which watermark

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Post by Global Administrator »

Just a note to all, that with today's new huge software update, images up to 1240 x 1240 can be posted - 20% larger than before, and you can take them direct off your phone or laptop etc. :mrgreen:

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Catweazle »

What can you see?

I see nothing – at least, not what the tagline says on that little scrap of paper. Am I getting old, or is this no error but a standard 5/- and my eyes are perfectly fine?
KRoo.png
On another note – what kind of post mark is this? Parcel post? Looks like the making of a star.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

I can't see any sign of the broken coast, though it looks as though it may have a short Spencer's Gulf. Can you provide a better scan?
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.

It is an Ebay Genius so of course ''Broken Coast near Sydney'' must be what it says. Despite a bind nun being able to see it has a totally strong solid coastline.

WHERE do they breed these dreamer drop kicks? :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Post by Kainnikanada »

Catweazle,

Here's your so-called L2 compared to a copy I have. No cigar for the example you've posted.
060.0d Roo YDX-2v -01 2400 L02 adjusted.jpg
The post mark is some kind of parcel handstamp.
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Post by Catweazle »

Exactly, just what I thought!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

1d red mark of A.jpg
1d red mark off Albany 2.jpg
1d red mark off albany.jpg
Could not find this flaw off Albany WA in the ACSC or WIKI :shock:
All three stamps are Die2A!

It seems to be common, anyone ?

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

Pampstamp wrote:
03 Jun 2020 14:21

Could not find this flaw off Albany WA in the ACSC or WIKI :shock:
All three stamps are Die2A!

It seems to be common, anyone ?
I plated a couple of these in my collection last night. GR51. They have a scarcity factor of 4.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Thanks for that.

From memory that is 4 from 10 with 10 being the highest scarcity level. :D
Cheers

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Thanks

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

6d frame.jpg
I have no idea about the right frame on this one.
Any suggestions?

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Slightly under-inked, it seems pretty clear?
.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Post by manfaefife »

langtounlad wrote:
30 May 2020 11:15
Donald

Which watermark

Regards
Frank
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

There is some slight "spattering" of ink in the right margin. My guess is this is a right marginal stamp and that the edge of the sheet was curled up very slightly when the printing plate was pressed on it, pushing the sheet flat and transferring a small amount of ink onto the paper as it did so.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Global Administrator wrote:
05 Jun 2020 00:24
Slightly under-inked, it seems pretty clear?
Pampstamp,
Glen is mistaken. It appears under-inked but that is not the reason/mechanism for the appearance only the end result. This feature is quite common on Roos and Aussie Geo V.

It's as The Pom states: a marginal stamp where the ink has been squeezed out. Please post a scan of the reverse. I assume it has one - always prudent to show both sides when posting questions to aid in identification.

Here are a couple of excerpts from "The Fundamentals of Philately" describing the mechanism.

I prefer the term "slurred print".
1990 Fundamentals of Philately p174 -01 part -01.jpg
1990 Fundamentals of Philately p190 -01.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

6d rear frame.jpg
Thanks for the comments everyone - you learn something everyday!!

Visually it just stood out.
The stamp is a 3rd Watermark and yes it is a marginal!

This stamp needs a bath and press!! :D

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

2d Roo 3rd Watermark Die1 OS
2d Roo 3rd Watermark Die1 OS
2d roo overink3.jpg
Here is a contender for the most over-inked and badly centered OS on piece :lol:

It just stood out!! Is it collectible?

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Pamp, it's a fabulous stamp! Poorly printed, roughly separated from the sheet (is that part of the jubilee line to the left?), creased by the user, and roughly postmarked. Poor thing needs a safe home.

They often took the worst-printed, worst-perforated sheets to make into OS stamps. I guess the theory is that the government employees would use that they were given, but paying customers might complain.

I always keep "freaks": over-inked or under-inked or dry ink, slurred prints, tin shed flaws, bullets and blobs. A stamp like yours would have pride of place in many collections.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Greg Ioannou wrote:
15 Jun 2020 00:51
Pamp, it's a fabulous stamp! Poorly printed, roughly separated from the sheet (is that part of the jubilee line to the left?), creased by the user, and roughly postmarked. Poor thing needs a safe home.

They often took the worst-printed, worst-perforated sheets to make into OS stamps. I guess the theory is that the government employees would use that they were given, but paying customers might complain.

I always keep "freaks": over-inked or under-inked or dry ink, slurred prints, tin shed flaws, bullets and blobs. A stamp like yours would have pride of place in many collections.
Thanks Greg for your comments
Yes it is part of the jubilee line on the left. :D

It really is a freak and it stood out. I found it abandoned among others at the bottom of the small box
it lived in for I would say most its 104 year life!!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Unless I've missed it, this one isn't in the ACSC. If someone has an ABP handy, can they have a look for me please?

Broken base to L of AUSTRALIA.

Thanks

Broken base to L
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

The Pom wrote:
23 Jun 2020 00:27
Unless I've missed it, this one isn't in the ACSC. If someone has an ABP handy, can they have a look for me please?

Broken base to L of AUSTRALIA.

Thanks


Image
This is FR59. Scarcity factor 1. Sometimes there is a small break in the shading line below it as well.

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