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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 08 Sep 2020 22:23
by Lesley
Hope someone can help with plating this ½d pair , second stamp has a partial break in top frame above US of AUSTRALIA. Left marginal line.
½d pair
½d pair
Top Frame ½d
Top Frame ½d
scan009c.jpg

Thanks,

Les

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 09 Sep 2020 06:24
by PhilipAdams
Morning Les,

You have a nice example of 1R6 (the right hand stamp) and of 1R5.

The variety-characteristics of 1R6 are shown in the WIKI

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=661709#p661709

Philip

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 09 Sep 2020 12:38
by Kainnikanada
Can anyone verify/confirm that Chapman possibly mixed up the identification of a flaw behind the roo's left ear tip?

Here's Chapman's description for L39: "LEFT PANE No. 39 Kangaroo Plate: 3rd Watermark: Colour flaw to right of tip of left ear. 5/-only seen. (See Right Pane No.39)".

Here's my 3rd watermark copy of the vignette for L39:

117.5.2.09.00.043-71.L39QAE 2400.jpg


Here's my copy of the vignette for L38:

117.5.2.08.00.054-71.L38QAE 2400.jpg
The colour flaw is not exactly at the tip but it is not accounted for by Chapman for this cliche.

Consulting Phoenix's website proved unsatisfactory. They have no illustration for the ear flaw.

So who has a similar copy of L38 or L39? Is L38 a different flaw but similar to L39?

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 13 Sep 2020 12:15
by rsellens
Kainnikanada wrote:
09 Sep 2020 12:38
Can anyone verify/confirm that Chapman possibly mixed up the identification of a flaw behind the roo's left ear tip?

Here's Chapman's description for L39: "LEFT PANE No. 39 Kangaroo Plate: 3rd Watermark: Colour flaw to right of tip of left ear. 5/-only seen. (See Right Pane No.39)".

Consulting Phoenix's website proved unsatisfactory. They have no illustration for the ear flaw.

So who has a similar copy of L38 or L39? Is L38 a different flaw but similar to L39?
Chapman dose not appear to have mixed up these two descriptions. You appear have missed this:

LEFT PANE No 39 Kangaroo Plate:1st to 3rd watermark: Notch in right outline of left ear. White outline to heel of left leg.

Both of these flaws are are present on your L39.

Here are the examples from the Premier Postal flaw guide.

L39 Notch in right outline of left ear.
L39 Notch in right outline of left ear.

L39 White outline to heel of left leg.
L39 White outline to heel of left leg.


Neither Chapman or the PPA guide describe any flaws on the L38 10/- prior to the appearance of the 'weeping kangaroo' flaw on 3rd watermark stamps.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 13 Sep 2020 13:17
by Kainnikanada
Ross,

You've delved too deeply. I wasn't asking about either of the 2 flaws you've commented on. I've noted those in the wiki. I'm asking about the colour flaw adjacent left ear only (as shown in the 2nd sscan) - note the roo has only one left ear (and not the left one (sic) as Chapman states that has the nick in it).

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 15 Sep 2020 00:42
by Pampstamp
Have a query for this 2/ Roo 3rd watermark!

99.9% of the time I would say that someone has taken to the bottom with scissors :lol: :lol:

But when I line up the stamp with another 3rd watermark Roo they match in total size.
I agree some are somewhat larger with the larger margins but not by very much??
2s roo imperfe.jpg
2s roo imperfe 1.jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 15 Sep 2020 01:22
by josto
Hi!

Could you send a scan of the back of the stamp with the watermark visible?

Greetings

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 15 Sep 2020 02:00
by The Pom
Kainnikanada wrote:
13 Sep 2020 13:17
Ross,

You've delved too deeply. I wasn't asking about either of the 2 flaws you've commented on. I've noted those in the wiki. I'm asking about the colour flaw adjacent left ear only (as shown in the 2nd sscan) - note the roo has only one left ear (and not the left one (sic) as Chapman states that has the nick in it).
Rod,
Are you referring to the mark circled below? If so, unless my eyes are playing up, it's greenish in colour and presumably something unconnected with the printing of the stamp.
Cheers
Chris


Ear flaw.jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 15 Sep 2020 02:05
by The Pom
Pampstamp wrote:
15 Sep 2020 00:42
Have a query for this 2/ Roo 3rd watermark!

99.9% of the time I would say that someone has taken to the bottom with scissors :lol: :lol:

But when I line up the stamp with another 3rd watermark Roo they match in total size.
I agree some are somewhat larger with the larger margins but not by very much??

Image
Almost certainly the result of a perf skip. Imagine the block below rotated 90°and trimmed just above the perfs.



Image

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 15 Sep 2020 03:20
by Kainnikanada
Chris,

That's the mark I'm referring to. I believe it's of a similar colour as seen in the vignette. Also, it's shape appears to mimic the outline of the adjacent edge of the ear.

I might update my comments on the cliche by calling this a provisional flaw - i.e. subject to confirmation.

There seem to be a few vignettes with residual marks surrounding the ears. Perhaps they're transitory.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 15 Sep 2020 10:33
by Pampstamp
josto wrote:
15 Sep 2020 01:22
Hi!

Could you send a scan of the back of the stamp with the watermark visible?

Greetings

The Pom wrote:
15 Sep 2020 02:05
Pampstamp wrote:
15 Sep 2020 00:42
Have a query for this 2/ Roo 3rd watermark!

99.9% of the time I would say that someone has taken to the bottom with scissors :lol: :lol:

But when I line up the stamp with another 3rd watermark Roo they match in total size.
I agree some are somewhat larger with the larger margins but not by very much??

Image
Almost certainly the result of a perf skip. Imagine the block below rotated 90°and trimmed just above the perfs.

The watermark is complete and NO marginal line is visible!!

Never seen a perf skip in the Roos before but can NOW understand how it happens!!

Seems like a genuine imperforate to me :lol: :lol:
2s roo imperfe 2.jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 16 Sep 2020 01:45
by Kainnikanada
While posting examples of L1-30 3rd watermarked 5/- roos to the wiki I found a substituted vignette (Roo) in position L29.

The original L29 had a vignette with a defective Roo's snout and a truncated grassy area as seen below (from an NWPI block of 4) and unlisted in the ACSC and Chapman:

2nd watermark
092.4.5.29.00.013-02.L29LAM.jpg
----------
092.4.5.29.00.013-51.L29LAM.jpg
----------
092.4.5.29.00.013-52.L29LAM.jpg
----------



3rd watermark
From an NWPI block of 30 - L 1-30

116.5.5.29.00.053-02.L29YDX 2400.jpg
----------
116.5.5.29.00.053-51.L29YDX 2400.jpg
----------
116.5.5.29.00.053-52.L29YDX 2400.jpg
----------
The substituted vignette and the duty plate have no readily identifiable flaws so a 5/- example would have to be collected in a multiple where another cliche had a flaw so the multiple could be accurately plated.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 16 Sep 2020 12:04
by danyeung
Hi, can the experts offer their opinion on below 6d blue stamp ? Thanks

Is the inner frame overinking and outer frame underinking ? Is it common to have both next to each other ?

Does the heavy map coast line also a result of overinking ?

Roo 6d blue 3rd watermark
Roo 6d blue 3rd watermark
P.S. I've posted the same stamp on the 6d blue Die IIA substituted cliche roos thread and raised the question whether this is a Die IIA substituted cliche or not.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25115&start=400

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 17 Sep 2020 15:28
by PhilipAdams
danyeung,

Over- and Under-inking can occur for a number of reasons, including characteristics of the ink, changes in plate pressure on the paper surface, problems with cleaning of the printing plate, etc.

Over-and Under-inking is also non-constant.

On your example, there is one issue - over-inking - which, as you observe, affects inner and outer frames and the map coast line.

Philip

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 18 Sep 2020 15:22
by danyeung
Thanks Philip, appreciate your help.

Re:overinking - the outer frame is underinking and the inner frame is overinking. Is it common to have both around the same area ?
Roo 6d blue left frames
Roo 6d blue left frames

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 18 Sep 2020 21:45
by Micky
Good evening, I finally received this one with sub cliche also sadly creased but for only $8 so I think I am still ahead a couple dollars.

I noticed a scratch top right of N.T going up towards the G in Postage, is this anything of interest?

Image
Image
Image


Micky

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 19 Sep 2020 02:27
by Kainnikanada
danyeung wrote:
18 Sep 2020 15:22
Image
Does this stamp only have one side? Most stamps have a back and are watermarked. Provide all pertinent information for a proper assessment.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 19 Sep 2020 16:45
by danyeung
Hi Kainnikanada, thanks for offering your help :)

Below are the front, back, top right corner and left frames for the assessment.
Roo 6d blue
Roo 6d blue
Back of the Roo 6d blue
Back of the Roo 6d blue
Roo 6d blue top right corner
Roo 6d blue top right corner
Roo 6d blue left frames
Roo 6d blue left frames

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 20 Sep 2020 02:38
by Kainnikanada
dan,

The ink squeeze and accumulation on the left side of the stamp indicated to me the stmp was from the left side of the printing plate. The vertical watermark line proves that observation.

The substituted cliche should be from the lower right corner i.e. either a vertical, a horizontal or combo of both lines might be present.

I didn't have to look at the seeming Die 2A break or the upper right corner to draw my conclusion.

I'll let others explain ink squeeze/accumulation in cliches found on the left and right perimeters of sheets of both Roos and Geo V. ...and the importance of posting scans of the backs of stamps for assisting in the proper identification of potential flaws or plate positioning.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 20 Sep 2020 11:04
by danyeung
Thanks again Kainnikanada for your help :)

Members Philip James & Pampstamp also helped to confirm the stamp is Die IIb in the other thread.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 21 Sep 2020 06:29
by Kainnikanada
Note regarding the 5/- wiki.

I've just completely revised the listing for 2nd watermarked 5/- L6 based on a 3rd watermarked example and a colourised view of the existing 5/- I posted several years ago.

Link is:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=19540&p=745346#p745346

I could be revising numerous posts depending on what's seen on these 3rd watermarked blocks of 30 I am posting.

Viewing scans in original colours often obscures constant varieties found on the Duty plates. The vignettes are of a different colour and are quite visible.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 26 Sep 2020 00:07
by The Pom
I've provisionally plated this Small Multi wmk Roo as L44.

Evidence:

Shaved P in overprint (though not the strongest example). This occurs at positions 2,8,14,20 & 26 on the forme, so position 14 on the forme would overprint positions 14 & 44 on each pane.

Squared off end to tail.

Vertical white flaws in tail.

Would the fine folks of Stampboards agree?


Kangaroo variety L44?
Kangaroo variety L44?

Kangaroo variety L44?
Kangaroo variety L44?



Reference:
http://www.phoenixauctions.com.au/cgi-bin/wsPhoenix.sh/view- ... T&minor=no

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 26 Sep 2020 01:54
by Kainnikanada
Chris,

Agree, it's L44.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 26 Sep 2020 02:19
by The Pom
Thanks Rod.

Cost me $A62.50 including post, so not bad for a $1,750 CV stamp. :)

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 26 Sep 2020 02:34
by Kainnikanada
The Pom wrote:
26 Sep 2020 02:19
Cost me $A62.50 including post, so not bad for a $1,750 CV stamp. :)
Yikes!!! That's an acceptable rate of return. ....over 3 centuries.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts ple

Posted: 27 Sep 2020 15:31
by Kiwidude
Kainnikanada wrote:
15 Jun 2017 03:50
John,

From the 2013 ACSC Roo handbook, here are the features of the Die 2B roos:
Image
Image
Inexplicably the ACSC editors have chosen to ignore the other salient feature, of this die, especially since not only the outer frame break above the 'ST' can be overinked (as they have correctly noted) but the inner frame lines at the upper corner can also be overinked (appear joined). The outer frame above the upper right corner is always shaved off (slopes downwards from left to right, ending at the upper right corner) and sometimes has a small/large notch at its left starting point as can be seen in the above illustration above the left side of the last 'A' of 'AUSTRALIA'.
Hi there,

Would this stamp be a 3rd Watermark 9d Die2 IIB ?

It has the break above ST & right hand corner slopes the rounded edge.

As Kainnikanada quoted writing above says

The 3d, 6d, and £1 also usually show a rounded corner.

Does that mean the 9d doesn't?

Fluffy perfs too.

I don't know much of the Kangaroo Series.Please be easy on me.

Is there a Number to go with this item ?
IMG_0006_NEW.jpg
IMG_0006a_NEW.jpg
Thanks Peter

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 27 Sep 2020 17:57
by muttly2011
Peter,

You are correct - your nine pence kangaroo is a Die IIB stamp.

Ideally, you would upload a scan of the back but the watermark showing through to the front looks to be third watermark. The only other options are small multiple watermark and CofA watermark and it doesn't look like it's one of those.

The 9d third watermark Die IIB is ACSC 27 (Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue) and SG 39b (Stanley Gibbons catalogue).

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 27 Sep 2020 18:09
by Kiwidude
Sorry Muttly,

Here's the rear.
IMG_0008_NEW.jpg
Peter

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 27 Sep 2020 18:45
by muttly2011
Yes, third watermark with marginal line showing it is from the top of the sheet.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 29 Sep 2020 10:41
by Kainnikanada
While updating the 5/- wiki with Third Watermark L31-60 cliches I've come across L42 with two states of the cliche.

Here's the link to the updated post:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=19540&p=745423#p745423

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 30 Sep 2020 23:54
by david3461
I have been working my way through a 1d kangaroo collection and matching items with the wiki (which has been fantastic) for positional pieces. However, I am now up to the FR31 and along the way I have encountered some cliches that require further attention/advice from the board experts.

The first is listed as EL45 and, as there is not a visual reference yet in the wiki, I am seeking your thoughts on the attached as being EL45

Thanks David

EL45_0001.jpg

EL45_0002.jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 01 Oct 2020 00:17
by david3461
This second one looks to be EL8 but shows the inner frame break.


EL8.jpg

EL8a.jpg


Cheers

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 01 Oct 2020 00:31
by david3461
And the third stamp looks to be FL8 showing the shade break under I of AUSTRALIA....


FL8.jpg


FL8a.jpg


FL8b.jpg

Cheers David

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 03 Oct 2020 16:32
by PhilipAdams
david3461 wrote:
30 Sep 2020 23:54
I have been working my way through a 1d kangaroo collection and matching items with the wiki (which has been fantastic) for positional pieces. However, I am now up to the FR31 and along the way I have encountered some cliches that require further attention/advice from the board experts.

The first is listed as EL45 and, as there is not a visual reference yet in the wiki, I am seeking your thoughts on the attached as being EL45

Thanks David


Image



Image
David,

I don't think so. I'd call the marker you identify a minor blemish, rather than a break in shading line. It is, though, in the correct position.

Philip

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 03 Oct 2020 16:36
by PhilipAdams
david3461 wrote:
01 Oct 2020 00:17
This second one looks to be EL8 but shows the inner frame break.



Image



Image



Cheers
Definitely EL8, with nice clear markers.

Mine does not have the frame break - https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6782503#p6782503

Send it over to the Kangaroo WIKI thread and I'll transfer it to the WIKI.

Philip

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 03 Oct 2020 16:38
by PhilipAdams
david3461 wrote:
01 Oct 2020 00:31
And the third stamp looks to be FL8 showing the shade break under I of AUSTRALIA....



Image




Image




Image


Cheers David
Yes and very clear. Again, please post the images to the WIKI staging post and I'll transfer them into the WIKI.

Philip

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 09 Oct 2020 06:01
by bantams
Can I ask if anyone has seen this top right hand corner indent flaw before on a ½d green? It's part of a lot coming up with a UK auction house. Thanks.
Australia Halfpenny Green Indent Top Right Corner.png

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 09 Oct 2020 07:11
by The Pom
Looks very much like physical damage to the stamp, rather than a plate flaw.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 13 Oct 2020 06:51
by Kainnikanada
RE: 5/- & 10/- Roo wikis

5/- wiki

1. The accompanying text for the 3rd watermarked 5/- L1-60 scans has been added. One task that has yet to be completed involves comparing the lengths of the Roos' tails to determine those that might be shorter.
2. Eventually I hope to add enhanced coloured scans of 2nd watermarked roos that are already in the wiki along with numerous copies I have yet to post to the wiki.

10/- wiki

1. While studying my '5JL16' Rabaul UPU cancels I 've had to update scans of the 1st Watermarked 10/-. rethink some plate identification etc. These corrections and scans will eventually be added to the wiki as well.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 17 Oct 2020 02:03
by josto
Hello,

I need assistance with this 3rd wmk 10/- kangaroo. There are several areas where there seems to be some kind of a weak double-or treble-print. Has anyone seen similar examples? Although not very strong, but there seems to be a doubleing of the coast in bight and the Spencer`s Gulf shifted upwards about 3-4mm, visible on kangaroos front leg and in ront of it. Several vertical pink lines are visible on the whole design. There is also a doubleing between the righthand inner and outer frame.In the upper left corner there is also a small doubleing of the outer left frame with a pink line extending to the upper perfs. Everything quite faint, but definitely unusual!

Any help or comments from the kangarooo experts would be great!

Greetings

josto

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 17 Oct 2020 02:40
by Kainnikanada
josto,

Import the stamp into a photo editor where you can alter the colours. Then make an assessment/observation.

The 10/- analines I recently posted in the wiki seem to have had their ink migrate slightly beyond the point of contact between the paper and the plate. This appears as diffused ink rather than a double/kiss print.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 17 Oct 2020 02:46
by josto
Hello Rod,

thank you cery much! I will try to play a bit with a photo editor and check the results!

Greetings

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 18 Oct 2020 04:34
by Derbyboi2
Can anyone confirm this is ACSC 24(2)j? Thanks in anticipation.
img20201017_14503365 (3).jpg
img20201017_14503365 (2).jpg
img20201017_18235418.jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 18 Oct 2020 06:34
by Kainnikanada
Robert,

Nope, not 2L22.

Banwell & Parsons lists this cliche as 2L28. Although similar to 22 there are an additional 3 flaws that confirm the plate location. Contrary to what the ACSC lists for 28 Banwell & Parsons do not illustrate the ink clog - it's probably an EFO.

I'll post a scan of the flaws a bit later today.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 18 Oct 2020 07:49
by Derbyboi2
Thanks Rod as ever.

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 18 Oct 2020 08:11
by Kainnikanada
Robert,

Here's an excerpt from the revised Banwell & Parsons' checklist:

Banwell & Parsons REV p19 -01 2L28 collage -01.jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 23 Oct 2020 15:09
by Derbyboi2
Would this qualify as Shading Breaks in Bight (R22) ACSC 44(D)n?
img20200910_23555209 (2).jpg

Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Posted: 23 Oct 2020 16:15
by Derbyboi2
Forgot to add that this is one of the few NWPI issues whose catalogue value is far greater than the basic Australian used stamp - currently some $A3200 against $A225 ignoring varieties - by a multiplier of over 14.