India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discovery?

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India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discovery?

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Hi Fellow StampBoarders,

I was just going though some random stamps of India that I’ve had lurking about in a junk box for a while. I found this stamp, SG 111, the Queen Victoria aniline carmine 3 pies, worth 10 pence (nominal) in used condition.
Front

Image

Back

Image
However, my stamp has an inverted watermark (the large star watermark). A point of the five point star should point the same direction as the head of the Queen. In my stamp, it points downward instead.
Retro Reveal

Image

Watermark Indicated (roughly)

Image
This watermark invert variety isn’t listed in my Stanley Gibbons Part 1, either used or mint. I have also checked my Phila India 1994 copy and that lists no such variety either. I don’t have any other of my reference material to hand as I am in the middle of home improvements and so 98% of my stamp stuff (and all my other stuff) is in storage and inaccessible.

Please can anyone let me know if this variety is listed anywhere, if there is any sale history at auctions, etc and also what I could do in order to get this listed by Gibbons. Any opinion on my stamp would also be appreciated.

I have no idea if this is a 30p stamp, or it’s like some of the sideways watermark roos where you are talking thousands or more! Don’t worry; I’m realistic enough to have not ordered the Ferrari just yet.

Any information or advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Norbert

PS I have verified my find using watermark fluid, so it’s not one of those trick-of-the-eye watermark varieties. I also think that I should probably give this stamp a bath and desert-magic, but will wait to hear if this stamp has fugitive ink, etc.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Lundy »

Congratulations Norbert!

I know nothing of this issue unfortunately, but having found an India official Edward VII stamp with inverted watermark which was not known a few years ago, I think there are more or this type of thing to be found.

They also are very popular!

Lundy :D

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by HayeSmyth »

Norbert,

As you are dabbling with Indian issue watermarks and seem to have a penchant for imagery jiggery pokery , perhaps you might consider contributing to the topic 'World Watermark Wiki'.

Or anybody else, for that matter.

This would be a useful addition I think:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=49541

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Lundy wrote:Congratulations Norbert!

I know nothing of this issue unfortunately, but having found an India official Edward VII stamp with inverted watermark which was not known a few years ago, I think there are more or this type of thing to be found.

They also are very popular!

Lundy :D
Thanks for the info Lundy. Please message me if you still have that stamp still, as I am desperately trying to gather Indian watermark varieties.

So my find is handy for my collection and I do have some other QV watermark inverts, but my KEVII watermark inverts are rather sparse!

Did you manage to get your find listed?

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

HayeSmyth wrote:Norbert,

As you are dabbling with Indian issue watermarks and seem to have a penchant for imagery jiggery pokery , perhaps you might consider contributing to the topic 'World Watermark Wiki'.

Or anybody else, for that matter.

This would be a useful addition I think:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=49541
Thanks for the info, Clive. I was not aware of this thread.

I will gather some of my other Indian inverted watermark examples and contribute to that thread during the coming week.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Spartacus »

Norbert Jenkins,

Having checked all my India and other specialized catalogs, I was unable to find this variety listed in any of them.. and that's at least five different catalogs.
I did however manage to find an identical item for sale on eBay. The seller has it on BIN at a price of $479.99 mint.
Here is the link.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1899-INDIA-3P-SCOTT-54-S-G-111-UNUSE ... 0509753741

Should I come across any more information I will let you know.

Nevertheless, it's an interesting find.

Cheers
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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Spartacus wrote:Norbert Jenkins,

Having checked all my India and other specialized catalogs, I was unable to find this variety listed in any of them.. and that's at least five different catalogs.
I did however manage to find an identical item for sale on eBay. The seller has it on BIN at a price of $479.99 mint.
Here is the link.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1899-INDIA-3P-SCOTT-54-S-G-111-UNUSE ... 0509753741

Should I come across any more information I will let you know.

Nevertheless, it's an interesting find.

Cheers
Thanks, Spartacus. Glad to see that I may have found something that is worthwhile.

I know that some of the Indian KGV and KGVI watermark inverts are from booklets and so not that uncommon. I am not aware of the SG 111 being available in booklet form. I suppose this is one avenue of investigation or elimination.

Sparticus, please can you confirm the references you checked, so that I will know not to duplicate effort when investigating further?

Thanks!

Edit: forget to say I have that eBay on watch now and will report back if it appears to sell.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Lundy »

Bizarrely, I found more of this type of thing when I spent virtually no money and was a stamp amateur.... I think I checked things more closely.

Now I am more targeted and don't check things so much! :D

Interesting that a mint example has turned up......well found Spartacus

Lundy :D

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Lundy »

Sorry one of my previous posts did not work

The EVII one I still have, it is SG O59w 2a mauv, the only other more scarce one I have is SG96w the QV 4a value.

If you want me to scan either, let me know

Lundy :D

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Lundy wrote:Sorry one of my previous posts did not work

The EVII one I still have, it is SG O59w 2a mauv, the only other more scarce one I have is SG96w the QV 4a value.

If you want me to scan either, let me know

Lundy :D
I'd love to see both please, when you have time to scan and upload it.

I have several of the inverts in the same series as SG96w but have a gap in the space for that specific stamp.

I think SG O59w is the only listed watermark invert in that set and it is also one I dont have.

People seem in general to think Indian watermark varieties are dull as the watermark star can't be identified as reversed, only inverted. However, I can imagine that more interest will be shown as the growing native collector base matures and becomes more sophisticated.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by HayeSmyth »

Norbert Jenkins wrote:
Edit: forget to say I have that eBay on watch now and will report back if it appears to sell.
I somehow doubt that this will sell in the short term. Not helped by a pretty high BIN price, on something that may have little precedence.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by tonymacg »

Gibbons have been gradually adding inverted watermarks to India and the Convention States over the last few years. I'm sure they'd be interested in this one, if they haven't seen a specimen yet.

I haven't checked my Convention States for this, or other watermark varieties, yet. That is a project for a very long Winter night, when I have absolutely nothing else to do :D
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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

This inverted/deflected watermark in SG 111 is not a new discovery.

All lower values of Br. India 1882-83 Vic. (SG 84-87), 1899 (SG 111) and 1900 (SG 112-114) stamps have been recorded with inverted/deviated star watermark.

They are in 'The Silver Key to the Golden Treasure of Indian Philately'; Manik Jain and Shriballabh Kothari; Philatelia, Kolkata 1986; Chapter IX: Postage Stamps under Crown and Empire; p.77.

This very inverted star watermark in 1899 3P aniline carmine von Angeli type is not listed in the following India-specific specialized catalogs (surprisingly not even in Phila India catalogs) which I have checked.

1. Phila India 1986 Catalog Indian Postage Stamps (1852-1985); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 1986; frontispiece opp. p.5 & p.16
2. Phila India 1990 Catalog Indian Postage Stamps (1852-1989); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 1990; p.23
3. Phila India 1991 Catalog Indian Postage Stamps (1852-1990); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 1991; p.23
4. Phila India 2000 Color Catalog Indian Philately (1852-1998); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 1999; p.10
5. Stanley Gibbons India and Convention State One Country Catalog 2002; Stanley Gibbons Limited, Ringwood, England 2002; p.6
6. Phila India 2003 Guidebook (1852-2002); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 2002; p.17
7. Stanley Gibbons Stamp Catalog India 2004; Stanley Gibbons Limited, Ringwood, England 2004; p.6
8. Phila India 2005 Guidebook (1800-2004); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 2005; p.20
9. Phila India 2008 Guidebook (1800-2007); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 2008; p.23
10. Stanley Gibbons Stamp Catalog India; Hugh Jefferies; Stanley Gibbons Limited, Ringwood, England 2009; p.6
11. Phila India 2011-2012 Guidebook (1800-2010); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 2010; p.24
12. Phila India 2013-2014 Guidebook (1800-2012); Manik Jain; Philatelia, Kolkata 2012; p.25

I do not have the editions of 'A Specialized Priced Catalog of Indian Stamps (1852-1946)' edited and published by Jal Manekji Cooper, to ascertain whether such inverted watermark was listed or not.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Thank you Joy for that interesting information. So, SG111w is not a new discovery, but it appears to be something not listed in many places.

If the information related to it in 'The Silver Key to the Golden Treasure of Indian Philately' is compact, please can you scan that in and put it here?

Also, is there any pricing information for it that you have in that book or any other reference you may have?

I will have to start looking for the other inverted watermarks in the other stamps that you also mention. If I find others, I will put them up here too.

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Lundy »

Hi Norbert,

Here are my two other inverted, the first SG96w needs a warm bath, Madras postmark

Image

Image

Then SGO59w which does not need a bath as it was by soaking it off that I found it! Darjeeling postmark.

Image

Image

Whilst digging these out I found a couple of hundred on paper Queen Vic and Edward I had put aside a few years ago, maybe there is an OHMS inverted out there somewhere

Image

There were also quite a few with one stamp showing the earlier Service overprint and the other OHMS they must have been using up the last of the Service ones, but I won't be soaking these! See below for these and a few other bits

Image

Lundy :D

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Great stuff Lundy! If you ever want to sell the first two, please email me and I'm sure we can come to a mutually agreeable arrangement.

As to the items in the last two images, you can probably use the Morley Bright Watermark Detector to show you what watermarks you have there without having to depaper them.

I have maybe 10,000 off paper QV and KEVII India off-paper stamps, 90% of which are the single large start watermark, 5% elephant and 5% no watermark.

I will have to bite the bullet one day and go through them all. Even if I find one, it'll be worth it. Just hope the previous owners didn't have the same idea!

As an aside, the elephant watermark doesn't have just the one type, as shown in Gibbons, but at least 4 subtypes (related to the shape of the ears, etc). I have seen some details of this in one of my reference books but they are not currently to hand. When I dig them out again, I will update the watermark thread with these details, as suggested near the top of this thread.

Edit: To maybe help track down more copies of what I will call SG 111w, can anyone make out the postmark town and date?

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Lundy »

Hi Norbert,

Thanks, not looking to sell at the moment but will certainly bear you in mind in the future!

Bizarrely, I had 3 of the 4a QV at one point, one badly torn and one with a minor crumple in the corner they were two of only a small number of things I have sold!

You inspired me to have a root around and I found I had probably another 500+ queen Victoria on paper so I soaked a few today will let you know the results!

Edited: sorry mistake by me- Lundy

As for the postmark, no idea looks like .....ades Mitra.....?
Lundy :D

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

I have found 2 more references which record this inverted watermark in SG 111.
  • Stamps of India; Jal Manekji Cooper; private, Mumbai 1968
    Chapter IX: General Issues (de la Rue), p.89
    It states that all values of Br. India Vic. stamps with star watermark (SG 84-118) has been found with watermark inverted and sometimes these stamps are found with partial STAR PAPER STAR watermark in between panes.
  • The Imperial Post Offices of British India (1774-1914) (Vol. II); Mohinilal Majumdar; Philatelia, Kolkata 1999
    Part VI: The Philately: Postage Stamps and Stationeries
    Chapter XXII: The India Postage Issues, p.410

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

Thanks Joy, interesting stuff.

Can you clarify please the meaning of 'Star Paper Star' watermark - is that to mean that the watermark has two of the large stars on the stamp, with space betweeen?

Or is it speaking of the wording from the edge of the watermark paper (although I am not sure what is written in that wording on the large star watermark papers).

Thanks!

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by mindpsyche »

Folks, am I pleased to say, I have my first inverted watermark discovery!

Here it is: I am confused with the ID as I cannot tell if this is the WM Single Star or Multi Star. For both Watermarks, are the stars the same size or are the stars in the Multi Star Watermark smaller?

I have optimistically ID'd this as an SG168 - Deep Mauve - GBP 20.00 (2006 Catalogue).

However, it is also possible that this is a SG206w - GBP 1.60 (2006 Catalogue).

I took pictures of the stamp as the Watermark can be seen better through the picture.

Image

Image

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Re: India QV 3pies Aniline Carmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by honza »

Ahoj Norbert!

Congratulations on your find! and Lundy too!

Perhaps you would like to add it to this thread:-

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=25625

It took three years for mine to be listed, but it was included eventually.

Mindpsyche: The single star covers most of the stamp as is illustrated in Lundy's scan below.
Lundy wrote:
Image

The multiple star watermark has considerably smaller stars, each about a quarter of the above. You can see the size of the multiple star watermark in my first post to the thread I mentioned above.

Cheers,

Honza


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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Norbert Jenkins »

mindpsyche wrote:Folks, am I pleased to say, I have my first inverted watermark discovery!

Here it is: I am confused with the ID as I cannot tell if this is the WM Single Star or Multi Star. For both Watermarks, are the stars the same size or are the stars in the Multi Star Watermark smaller?

I have optimistically ID'd this as an SG168 - Deep Mauve - GBP 20.00 (2006 Catalogue).

However, it is also possible that this is a SG206w - GBP 1.60 (2006 Catalogue).

I took pictures of the stamp as the Watermark can be seen better through the picture.

Image

Image
Awesome, well done mindpsyche.

Pardon me for a 'drive-by' posting as I am just off out for the evening. Your stamp shows the 'multiple star' watermark (inverted, as you rightly note).

The 'single star' watermark has a star much larger than those on the 'multiple star' watermark.

Hope that helps!

Norbert

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by mindpsyche »

Thanks Honza and Norbert for re-confirming my true thoughts about the ID of the stamp.

This is actually a very interesting and fun area, i spent a solid part of the morning flipping over all my Pre-Independence India issues to look for any irregularities.

I still am not sure of many of the stamps I have, I guess with time and practice, identifying the Watermarks will become much easier.

Anyway, this was a nice find!

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

mindpsyche wrote: I am confused with the ID as I cannot tell if this is the WM Single Star or Multi Star. For both Watermarks, are the stars the same size or are the stars in the Multi Star Watermark smaller?
I have optimistically ID'd this as an SG168 - Deep Mauve - GBP 20.00 (2006 Catalogue).
However, it is also possible that this is a SG206w - GBP 1.60 (2006 Catalogue).

Image

Image
The correct identification of this stamp would have sorted out the watermark type.

This stamp is Br. India 1926 2A GV purple typograph with inverted multiple star watermark
(SG 206w).

SG 206 is easily distinguishable from SG 168 by the inscription INDIA POSTAGE & REVENUE in the upper band of the stamp as opposed to INDIA POSTAGE in SG 168.

The 1911-22 GV series (SG 151-191) has large single star watermark whereas the 1926-33 GV series (SG 201-219) has small multiple star watermark.

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by mindpsyche »

Joy, as always thanks a ton.

This is what happens when you keep flipping over stamps to check Watermarks and don't give a 100 % concentration to the front of the stamp :oops:

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by psphani »

I don't remember when i purchased this KE 2 Rs Mint. A month ago i discovered it was Inverted WMK and i was happy to see it catalogued at 1200 GBP. I immediately sold it for a good price as i am not interested in WMK varieties.

(Image was deleted by inactive member, or by photobucket etc.)

(Image was deleted by inactive member, or by photobucket etc.)

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by mindpsyche »

Nice find, psphani.

I was also nicely surprised with discovering these KGVI Blocks of SG250w (At least it looks to me like an inverted watermarks).

I read on another post that this is not that scarce either.

The front of first block:

Image

The back of first block:

Image

The front of Second block:

Image

The back of Second block:

Image

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discov

Post by vicaf60 »

All Photobucket “Ransom” images above have been replaced, and saved forever.

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discovery?

Post by senthil+1 »

I attached the image of 2 1/2 AS KE VII India stamp. It has a multiple star watermark.

I found watermark in sideways by using LED light.


Is this variety mentioned in SG ?

.
Attachments
IMG_20200621_142734_900_1592729972608.jpg
IMG_20200621_142513_096_1592730116714.jpg

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Re: Br. India 1935 2½A SG 244w

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Yes, this watermark variety is listed in SG.

It is very common Br. India 1935 2½A SG 244w (multiple stars watermark pointing left, as seen from the obverse side) with CV £1 in used condition in Stanley Gibbons Stamp Catalogue India 2018 5th Ed..

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discovery?

Post by senthil+1 »

Thank you for your useful information.

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discovery?

Post by senthil+1 »

I have attached the images of Patiala and Chamba state sevice overprinted India 1A stamps. Both are having inverted multiple star watermark

Do the overprints add to the value?

.
Attachments
IMG_20200719_111224_698_1595137628175.jpg
IMG_20200719_111440_341_1595137525091.jpg

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Re: Patiyala 1927 1A SG O49w & Chamba 1927 1A SG O51w Valuations

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

No. Both are very common.

The stamps are Patiyala 1927 1A SG O49w and Chamba 1927 1A SG O51w which in used condition have CV 50p and 30p respectively in Stanley Gibbons Stamp Caralogue 2018 5th Ed. (the real market value is fraction of that). ☹️

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Re: India QV 3 Pies AnilineCarmine *Inverted Wmk* New Discovery?

Post by senthil+1 »

Thanks a lot.

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