Early Tibet stamps and covers - reprints or genuine?

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Early Tibet stamps and covers - reprints or genuine?

Post by mika2671 »

I recently received this lot of old stamps from Tibet and would like to know if they are genuine or reprints/ forgeries. Catalogue value?

Image

and all the sets in close-up scans:

1st
Image

2nd
Image

3rd
Image

4th
Image

5th
Image

6th
Image

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Re: Early Tibet stamps - reprints or genuine?

Post by tonymacg »

I don't know if they're OK, but I'd be rather doubtful. This site
http://tibetanpost.com/tpost.php?op=section&id=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
shows good examples of the genuine stamps and most of the forgeries.
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Re: Early Tibet stamps - reprints or genuine?

Post by gavin-h »

I said this recently on another thread here about the Buenos Aires Steamship stamps, but I suspect that it applies just as well here:
gavin-h wrote:This is one of those issues where the safest thing is to assume what you have is a forgery unless you have compelling evidence to the contrary...

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Re: Early Tibet stamps - reprints or genuine?

Post by Eric Casagrande »

I look at the early Tibet (and Nepal) issues a lot, and have a couple of the major studies in my library.

While I couldn't give a perfectly definitive answer, my gut feeling tells me they are all fakes, simply because they are far too clear. The early Tibet classics were - for the most part - frequently a mess in terms of clarity, with print that was difficult to read. Yours, on the other hand, are all sharp as a tack.

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Re: Early Tibet stamps - reprints or genuine?

Post by fromdownunder »

Piggybanking onto this thread, here is a scan of my poor little group of Tibet material. I assume it is all fake:

Image

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Re: Early Tibet stamps - reprints or genuine?

Post by tonymacg »

Don't much like your chances, Norm :(
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Is this Tibet cover genuine?

Post by jno »

A very crisp and 'clean' Tibet domestic cover (too clean?). The envelope is of a rather coarse, probably hand-made paper -- which may at least partly explain the very 'fuzzy' and indistinct cancel.

Image
Image

Is this genuine? And, if so, what issue is this? I have no experience with Tibet whatsoever.

Many thanks,

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Re: Is this Tibet cover genuine?

Post by birder »

Hundreds of such covers are available on ebay, delcampe.

There is one dealer who has been selling them by the dozens -- check out his link :

http://www.delcampe.net/list.php?language=E&searchString=tib ... cription=N

Hope this helps.
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Re: Is this Tibet cover genuine?

Post by aethelwulf »

I'd be highly suspect of it.

The ratio of fake to genuine Tibet covers seems to be huge. Maybe the fakers think people will see them and think they're "exotic" and buy them for interest's sake?

For something of that age, the condition of the envelope is all wrong, it looks brand new. :shock: The faker has probably deliberately made the cancel fuzzy to add to the 'look' of the cover--remote, "primitive" conditions, cancels would be hand-carved not steel dies.

I talked to a collector of Tibet once. He told me that a famous name in the world of Tibetan philately considered a cover to be genuine only if it smelled of ox dung. :lol:

One of my collecting areas, Mongolia, is comparable here. Fortunately I never see fakes around. 8) The covers are always in rough condition. Auction catalogue descriptions will state "the cover has worn edges", but that's par for the course and doesn't affect value. There are covers out there with wormholes and they still sell well. :o
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Re: Is this Tibet cover genuine?

Post by tonymacg »

And all noted as forgeries ...

A couple of useful Web sites if you want to look at Tibetan philately a little more are the Nepal and Tibet Philatelic Study Circle (http://www.fuchs-online.com/fuchs/ntpsc/) and the dealer Geoffrey Flack's site at http://tibetanpost.com/tpost.php.
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Re: Is this Tibet cover genuine?

Post by aethelwulf »

birder wrote:There is one dealer who has been selling them by the dozens -- check out his link :

http://www.delcampe.net/list.php?language=E&searchString=tib ... cription=N
At least that seller states in his title that the covers are forgeries. (Well, Delcampe, unlike a certain 'auction'-turned-B.I.N. website, actually cares about fakes being passed off as genuine and enforces such admissions).

The sellers title is amusing (and he uses the same title for all 34 listings it appears)
TIBET STATE USED OLD COVER FINE FORGERY VERY RARE
Even the sought-after forgeries such as Sperati are not rare. Taking a narrow interpretation of the term, it could be said that if you only made 3 fakes, then each piece is rare, as there's only 3... :roll: And a "very rare" item for only £5.40? :mrgreen:
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Re: Is this Tibet cover genuine?

Post by jno »

Thank you all. That's rather what I suspected. Well, at least I've got a "FINE FORGERY VERY RARE" :roll: that I paid much less than 5.40 pounds for.

Hilaritas!

jno

PS: now that I look closely, there are some tell-tale smudges around the 'address' that look suspiciously like a rubber stamp was used. And the paper the stamp is printed on looks identical to the envelope paper!
j

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Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

After some period of losing the interest I have updated and enhanced my Tibet website.

Together with another Tibet collector who is also member here I have added a "Hall of Shame" in addition, listings of all postmarks were added, a miscellaneous section with interesting items and much more...

Pay a visit at http://www.fuchs-online.com/tibet
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by admin »

Hi .. we also ways ask that new posts have SOME kind of images.

Maybe add a photo of a new fake or a new cover or SOMETHING with a story. Please something in the next post.

You'll get far more visitor hits and far more google hits, and if that site ever goes down then at least SOMETHING is stored forever here. :mrgreen:

I've seen 100s of specialist stamp boards just disappear. Sad but true. Folks die, get sick, lose interest, forget to pay domain renewal etc.

We do what we can to keep all stamp info in one place and all links to special sites here.

We are not going anywhere, so look forward to see some photos!

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

No Problem at all..., from the "Hall of Shame"...

Image

Description by the auction house:
1965.4 Tr. As domestic mail on illustrated USA First Day Cover from New Orleans to Gyantse

Conclusion:
The Tibetan stamp as well as Lhasa postmarks are forgeries. The address has been manipulated and changed from Nepal to Tibet to make the covers "useful".

Comment:
I strongly believe that I have seen this cover several times at a dealer booth at Sindelfingen fair and always pointed out to the same seller that the items are fake.
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by GlenStephens »

Have to say, that cover would have fooled me on a quick glance!

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by birder »

I have some Tibet believed to be fakes.

Image
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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

I am afraid, your belief is correct..
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by aethelwulf »

eBay seller bygonesofbridlington always seems to get good prices for their material...maybe they've built up a base of people who have them in "saved seller" list.

They recently got 14.50GBP for this

Image

Described as
Indian States unknown Postal History Cover (Au1783)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Indian-States-unknown-Postal-History-Cover-Au1783-/310727272167
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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

Thats a common worthless forgery.... unfortunately ebay UK is one of the worst ebay sites...
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by aethelwulf »

Tibet covers I see on eBay and Delcampe always look obviously fake--the envelopes are too fresh looking, and no wear on the edges. The handwriting always seems to be the same too, very neatly done in the corner.

When it comes to Mongolia (a 'cousin' to Tibet so to speak) postal history, its typical to find the covers in poor shape--worn, dirty, even with wormholes. If it looks too nice, its suspicious.

I talked to a collector of Tibet once, who said the advice he was once given was "smell the Tibet covers; if they smell like yak dung, they're authentic". Might sound :shock: but I guess some truth to it...although after time any scent picked up from the local environment should fade.
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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

@aethelwulf,

that statement about the smell, your friend took from Waterfalls Tibet handbook. But you are correct, if a cover is too nice, it is highly likely i is fake

Have a look on my own Tiibt collection (not the latest state) at http://fuchs-online.com/tibetsammlung
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

I have added Images of some Amban Cover to my web site..., for other additions, review the "what's new" part...
Image
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by birder »

Image

I have highlighted a few portions.

1. Outlined in black is the phrase "Badshah ka hukum lain jaabhyaa" .."Despatched to obtain orders from the king".


2. Outlined in red at two places is the name of the city LHASA.

3. Outlined in yellow is the phrase "Lal Mohor"..."Red Stamp".

4. Outlined in blue is the word "GORKHA".

many others are also decipherable.


Lovely image. Thank for sharing.
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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by maptrekker »

The handwriting is neat and relatively easy to read. Interesting that the language is not Tibetan or Chinese, but Nepali for the King of Nepal.

I can also make out Prithvi Bir Bikram Shamsher Jung Bahadur Shah Dev, the 6th Maharaja of Nepal (outlined in pink).

Image

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

I should have added the description have.

Amban Brief from Amban Sei (Short Sign) Se-leng-e from the year Kuang-hsü 12 (1886) to the Maharadscha (King) PRITHWI BIR BIKRAM SHAMSHER JUNG BAHADUR SHAH DEV of Gorkha (Nepal)

However, here is another Amban cover where i have very little information about.
http://fuchs-online.com/tibet/Miscelleaneous/Amban_Cover.htm
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by maptrekker »

This one looks to be addressed to Surendra Bikram Shah Dev, 5th Maharaja of Nepal --
सुरेन्द्र विक्रम शाह देव -- (outlined in pink).

An Amban from 1868 would match the years of his reign -- 1847-1881.

Image

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

I am updating my Tibet Pages to add complete sheets and indicate the differences in Settings.
What is your preferred way to present it?

http://www.fuchs-online.com/tibet/1933_09_Setting_1_V01.htm
or...
http://www.fuchs-online.com/tibet/1933_09_Setting_1_V02.htm
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by mikeg »

I prefer the second way V02 :D

Having the separate image is easier to work with for plating, plus for you, the image can be a higher resolution without slowing down the main page.

Excellent work 8)

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Re: Tibet stamps - comprehensive Website update

Post by 22028 »

I guess I found a better solution with a Floating image..., your comments are appreciated.

http://www.fuchs-online.com/tibet/1933_09_Setting_1_V02_layer.htm
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

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Is this 1950s Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by goof »

I would like an opinion on this highly forged issue and cancellation.

I have seen this cover elements of which seem genuine, but knowing how many forgeries exist out there would like an opinion off anyone with knowledge as to how genuine this looks.

My apologies for the photos these are the best I have available.

Image


Image

regards
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Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

I found these in an odds and sods lot, does anyone have a clue as to what they are?


Image

Image
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Re: Can anyone identify these please?

Post by HalfpennyYellow »

They're from Tibet.
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Re: Can anyone identify these please?

Post by vikingeck »

well Jim I'd say that they were either :

1. 1912 series of Tibet

or 2. Imitations of the 1912 series of Tibet


I can't tell the real from the fakes I'm afraid :( :(

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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by aethelwulf »

I used ModPower to amend the title, adding Tibet to it, so that the thread might catch the attention of the "right" people.
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Re: Can anyone identify these please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

vikingeck wrote:well Jim I'd say that they were either :

1. 1912 series of Tibet

or 2. Imitations of the 1912 series of Tibet


I can't tell the real from the fakes I'm afraid :( :(

Alex
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Knowing my luck, 2 will be the answer. :D
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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

aethelwulf wrote:I used ModPower to amend the title, adding Tibet to it, so that the thread might catch the attention of the "right" people.
Thank you.
With kind regards, Jim

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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by goof »

Thought I'd bump this as there is another question regarding Tibet and would appreciate any feedback please

Mick

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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by ikanek »

I think it is a forgery as many of the covers offered on eBay and elsewhere.

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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by goof »

This is part of a house auction lot rather than ebay, I can't see where it is wrong, but am always cautious with Tibet issues especially the early ones. The cancellation looks genuine and does match closely some of the early cancels.

If it is a forgery it looks to be one of the better ones. Is there anything that makes you believe it to be a forgery apart from the fact that most of these are forged?

Thanks for any information you can give.

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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

Just looked them up in SOTW, £60+ if they are real. :D
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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by ikanek »

There are several things which make it suspicious.

First, there are two cancels Lhassa. In all covers in the exhibit, there were not cancels only on cover, only stamps were canceled.

Second, the clarity of cancel is too high for me.

Third, I checked the type against genuine Lhassa bilingual types and in my opinion it did not pass well.

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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by goof »

Many thanks

much appreciated
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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by birder »

I bought this gem last week. Locally. Comments invited.

Image
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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

Is there a Tibet expert in the house? :D
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Re: Is this Tibet 8t cover genuine?

Post by ikanek »

birder wrote:I bought this gem last week. Locally. Comments invited.

Image
Sorry, birder, but such covers are nearly always forgeries.

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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by ikanek »

Jim, it is not a trivial task. There are many forgeries of this issue, some of them are very dangerous and I don´t have a specialized reference. At first sight, they look OK, but I am not an expert.

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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

ikanek wrote:Jim, it is not a trivial task. There are many forgeries of this issue, some of them are very dangerous and I don´t have a specialized reference. At first sight, they look OK, but I am not an expert.
Thanks for that. I gather that they are extensively forged, and the post marks don't look to be much help.
With kind regards, Jim

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warm
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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by warm »

Jim
A Tibet expert friend of mine, responded as follows to your question

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Now they are identified.

These are forgeries, but not the modern s*** flooding eBay..

These stamps belongs to classic forgeries of the 1912 issue, 3rd set.

Appeared in the mid 1930´s in USA. Contrary to the other classic forgeries these are printed on European laid paper.
A department store sold sets in small glassines accompanied with a small card with advertising text.

These are the halftranka forgeries printed in two shades, namely Violet and Claret.

Multiples do not exist and all are ”postmarked” with a forged postmark.

Forget the £60 value, say £3 to 4 each in an internet auction.


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Machaggis52
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
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Re: Can anyone identify these Tibet stamps please?

Post by Machaggis52 »

warm wrote:Jim
A Tibet expert friend of mine, responded as follows to your question

-----------


Now they are identified.

These are forgeries, but not the modern s*** flooding eBay..

These stamps belongs to classic forgeries of the 1912 issue, 3rd set.

Appeared in the mid 1930´s in USA. Contrary to the other classic forgeries these are printed on European laid paper.
A department store sold sets in small glassines accompanied with a small card with advertising text.

These are the halftranka forgeries printed in two shades, namely Violet and Claret.

Multiples do not exist and all are ”postmarked” with a forged postmark.

Forget the £60 value, say £3 to 4 each in an internet auction.


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Thanks for that, please thank your friend for me. Forgeries, but 80 year old forgeries. :D
With kind regards, Jim

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