France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by memphre »

FSAMAAA wrote:I recently purchased the following collection ... http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=90433, and I'm starting to wade into it. I received early feedback that it appears to have been a good purchase, but also that there may be some mis-identification contained within its early pages.

An etiquette question for the larger group of France experts here ... should I start posting small sets of images here within this thread, or should I start a new, dedicated thread purely for this collection? I'm open to either path, and am asking solely to make sure I don't derail anything, or change the intent of this long-lived thread.

If someone feels called to chime in with initial corrections to the way some of the early stamps have been identified, I would welcome that. I have no pre-conceived notions about whether the identifications are accurate or not, and I'm not averse to doing my own research. However, I tend to learn best when I'm "standing on the shoulders of giants".

Lastly, I have current (or very recent) copies of Scott (I'm US-based, so it's a starting point), Yvert et Tellier, Maury, and Michel. If there is guidance within one of those catalogs (sorry ... US spelling) that would provide the best path forward, I welcome that advice as well.

Thanks in advance. I'm looking forward to getting a MUCH better understanding of early French stamps.

Rob

Hi Rob

Scott is basically useless in distinguishing the various early Cérès issues. Most France collections built on Scott or Gibbons «guidance» will exhibit the same misidentifications as the collection you have purchased. Now, misidentification works both ways, sometimes you will have a better stamp than the collector expected. As said many times by various posters and on many threads, Maury, now Maury-Spink, catalogues are the best by far. No other come close by a country mile.

The first line on the first page of the collection purports to show copies of Number 1. Well, they're not! These three stamps are all Bordeaux issues. So is the last stamp on row 3.

You need to educate yourself on the differences between the various issues, including the general issues for the Colonies which were printed from the same plates as the Metropolitan France issues.

I suggest you can start here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=26164
There are other relevant threads that you can find by searching for Bordeaux and Ceres.

You will also note comments here and there in the information threads: very closely cut imperf stamps and those that are cut into, loose a great deal of value. Many of the stamps in the collection are in that category and are worth at the most 5% of properly classified catalogue value or even only a few euros. They should have been considered defective and assigned a zero value in the apparaisal.

You are on the right thread, show us some stamps in sufficient large scans, you will get answers.

Memphre
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Memphre

I was going to quote the parts of your response that I found most valuable, but I realized that each piece was valuable for different reasons. I really appreciate the details and suggestions you've provided, as well as a place to start regarding re-evaluating the way that the stamps have been identified. I also appreciate the suggestion about value for the tightly-cut imperfs.

I don't yet know if this is going to be a lot of fun, or if it is going to feel like work. Regardless, I know it will be a great educational experience for me.

While I'm thinking of it, I'd like to ask an additional question. I can see in Maury that there are additional prices for different types of cancels, but I'm not sure I understand the symbols. It appears that the second price is for a particular combination of stamp and cancel type on a full envelope (a small envelope symbol is shown above the value). Does that imply that the first price is for a stamp on-piece (an empty square symbol is shown above), but not the full envelope? If the stamp has been soaked off completely, does the type of cancel affect value? Do any of the catalogs give (credible) adjustments to the base catalog value for different cancellations?

Thanks to all for the help so far and in the future. Once the new board is up and running, I'll start posting examples where I'm looking for validation.

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by memphre »

Hi Rob

We look forward to your stamp images.

Regarding cancel values Maury again is the main catalogue with the most information about the valious types of cancels. Maury irritably relies on a large array of symbols that you have to read properly to understand the catalogue. Unfortunately, they didn't see the need to explain the meaning of the empty square. I have interpreted it a a single stamp; most of the time it is followed by the words «ou fragment» which means «or on piece».

Theere are series of publications listing price indices for each and every cancel you can encounter. The ones on single stamps by Mathieu, and the ones on letters by Pothion are the better known. They are long out of print but can always be found on Delcampe.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Hi,
I need some help with these.
They are clearly not “Bordeaux”, and the imperf versions of the 1872 1c and 2c (Y50 & 51) are not catalogued used. So are they colonial? Maybe the cancellations help?
Cheers,
Michael


Image

Image

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by David Benson »

The Saigon cancel on the 2c. should be enough proof of being the Colonial issue,

David B.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

David Benson wrote:The Saigon cancel on the 2c. should be enough proof of being the Colonial issue,

David B.

Thanks David.
Now you point it out it is obvious.
Before that I didn't have a clue!
Cheers

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

First one is colonial also, used in India (cancel show "Inde") at the top.

there was 5 town where French post office was installed : pondichery, chandernagor, karical, yanaon, mahe.

This one is probably from Pondichery, most seen.

The second one is from Cochinchina and has only been used in Cochinchina a very short time in 1876 if I recall correctly, mostly on papers franked at 4c.

The value of this second one is very very high, but the condition of this one (a tear on the left) make it only little value (maybe 10-30€ for a spacefiller of this scarse stamp ?)
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Thanks Gugusig for your usual expertise.
Pity about the condition of the Cochinchina one, but I'll keep it anyway as I am unlikely to be able to afford a sound one.
Cheers,
Michael

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

French_Andorra_60C_paper_rear.jpg
I have a question about differences in the two stamps shown above. To the naked eye, the paper in the bottom one has a gray tinge to it, where the top stamp appears to be closer to white.

Can someone with access to a Specialized French Andorra catalog (if such a thing exists) look and see if there were different papers used for certain stamps within this issue? I have other stamps in this range that show the same characteristics.

If there are differences, can you give an idea of whether one paper type was more common than the other, and what the catalog value differences are between the paper types? A rough idea is sufficient.

Thanks!

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by memphre »

Hi Rob

I know of no catalogue that would go this deep into papers.

Do take into account that this stamp was issued on July 8, 1942 from occupied France. I guess they used whatever paper they could find.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Bc92 wrote:
18 Jan 2019 07:26
For pc or gc (small or large figures) lozenges online you may try :
http://pcgc.e-timbres.net/
I happen to have a very limited amount of French stamps with either small or large figures, anyway I find them alluring.

A few pages earlier on this thred I found a very useful link to identify small or large figures on stamps. Still there is one question.

I put a query for 2906 imperf. Napoleon 10 c (EMPIRE FRANC). Here is the result which shows name of the place, its location and even the info on the number of habitants.

RESULTAT DE VOTRE RECHERCHE:
Sisteron Basses-Alpes (5) () habitants: 10367 (16)
PC2906 cote: 2,85

Where it says "cote", which I understand is "value", needs clarification. How do I read it? Is that in proportion (addition) to the catalogue, or what? The same cancel could have been on almost any stamp of the period, and they are all valued differently. Please explain.

Kind regards

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

sorry, a slip:

'habitants' means inhabitants

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

France_15a_front.jpg
Ignore the quality of the stamp ... can someone tell me what the cancel represents? I'm trying to delve into the more minute details of early French stamps, and I'm not sure how to interpret this one.

Thanks!

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

Railway losange PC2° i guess,

See here some informations : https://marcophilie.org/x/x-los-i.html
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

gugusg wrote:
05 Jun 2020 02:23
Railway losange PC2° i guess,

See here some informations : https://marcophilie.org/x/x-los-i.html
Thanks for your insight. I've spent quite a bit of time on that website today, as it appears to be a great source for identifying locations for numeric cancels.

Recognizing that the stamp is in poor condition, does a railway cancel affect value? Are they common?

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

Theses cancels can affect value, but most are pretty common. Some are more scarce I guess.

For this cancel and stamps, no valueaccording to condition and cancel :D
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Please could you explain what exactly the "cote: 2,85" in the statement below means

RESULTAT DE VOTRE RECHERCHE:
Sisteron Basses-Alpes (5) () habitants: 10367 (16)
PC2906 cote: 2,85

How do I read it? Is that in proportion (addition) to the catalogue, or what?

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

I think this is completely different from catalog values. Only an indication of scarcity : 2 is more scarse than 1, and 3 is scarser than 2, etc.
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Thank you for the answer.

Still, it is not clear what scale is applied to measure the scarcity. I checked a few other cancels it comes to 13,5. But I have just a few. So theoretically it can be much higher.
And rarity must certainly affect the value and desirability of a stamp. Any idea?

Regards

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

From some testing, I believe the website gives a kind of catalogue value, estimated as follows:

a) take the Pothion-Baudot catalogue value, in €, (actually it's a little more tricky, since this Pothion-Baudot catalogue gives an "indicium" between 1 and 38, which has to be transformed in € through a table which is published every year or two years),

b) divide it by 4 to get a cat value for a detached stamp (Pothion-Baudot values are for stamps on cover).

And then, my personal feeling is that to get a retail value you would have to divide once more by 3 to 5.

Example : GC 1473 Faverolles
Pothion-Baudot gives indicium 17, which in 2020 means 500 €
Divide by 4, you obtain 125 €, while the site value is 100 (meaning the website is not quite up to date).
A retail value would be typically 30 €.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Hello Bc92,

I might misinterpret it, but it looks your answer concerns my question of cancel values.

I'm a little puzzled, frankly speaking, as I don't see the major underlying principle in the results for cancels I get from the abovementioned site. I believe it should give relative value of the cancel only in comparison to other cancels, as the same cancel can be on a very commom stamp, same as on a rather rare and expensive one. Or quote a premium on top of the stamp value for the cancel.
It looks, I should try to contact someone who is in charge of that site and ask.

Thank you anyway

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

All the values are for the commonest stamp, i.e a blue one (Empire 20 c, Siege 20 c, Céres 25 c)
Lozenges are also largely collected on 10 c bistre stamps, which are not very much less common and often give a better readability of the lozenge.

For the general question of the value of a given cancel mark on a given stamp, there is no general rule : add the two values, retain the larger value, take the largest one plus say 55% of the other one, etc.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Hello Bc92,

Thank you so much for the explanation and advice. It does make sense.

Kind regards

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Question regarding markings on the back of stamps. I'm going through a large collection of French Colonies / French Offices stamps, and I'm seeing markings on the back of a couple of them. I'm wondering if anyone here can help me identify whether they are owner's marks or expertising marks.

The first is Scott #5a from French Offices in Egypt (Alexandria), the Type II stamp. Scott values it as $160 hinged.
France_Offices_Alexandria_5a_front.jpg
France_Offices_Alexandria_5a_rear.jpg

The second is Scott #7 from French Offices in Zanzibar. Scott values it as $25 used.
France_Offices_In_Zanzibar_7_front.jpg
France_Offices_In_Zanzibar_7_rear.jpg
Any insight is appreciated.

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Next question ... is this an example of quadrille paper, or is it some sort of damage to how the stamp has been stored over time? Maury refers to the base stamp as #101, but my Scott catalog (the only reference I currently have for Offices, etc.) doesn't make any reference to this particular Port Said overprint being on quadrille paper.
France_Offices_Port_Said_7_front.jpg
France_Offices_Port_Said_7_rear.jpg

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

no doubt about quadrillé paper here.

In my maury this is the Quadrillé Paper (type IID or IIE) that have been overprinted.

Everything is fine :mrgreen:
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

gugusg wrote:
11 Jun 2020 01:35
no doubt about quadrillé paper here.

In my maury this is the Quadrillé Paper (type IID or IIE) that have been overprinted.

Everything is fine :mrgreen:
Does this Port Said stamp exist in both normal and quadrillé paper, or was it only produced using quadrillé paper?

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

According to my Maury only in quadrille version ;-)
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Next up ... Zanzibar. Can someone take a look at this overprint and let me know if you think it looks legitimate? It has a very nice catalog value, and I want to get other opinions before offering it up.
France_Offices_In_Zanzibar_15_front.jpg
France_Offices_In_Zanzibar_15_rear.jpg
Thanks!

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Ceres »

Hi,

Looks legit...

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Ceres wrote:
11 Jun 2020 20:17
Looks legit...
Thanks for sharing that perspective. I appreciate it.

Next up ... different cancellations. My Maury for the colonies et. al. is on the way, but in the meantime, I'd like to know whether both of these cancellation types were appropriate for the time period and the location.
French_Morocco_6_front.jpg
French_Morocco_8_front.jpg
Thanks for everyone's continued help with my educational journey.

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Greaden »

Checking Maury, both match types of cancellations used during that time.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Greaden wrote:
12 Jun 2020 05:10
Checking Maury, both match types of cancellations used during that time.
Glad to hear it. Thanks for checking!

Same question for Alexandria. The first cancel doesn't look like anything I've seen before (not that I have extensive experience with these ... I don't).
France_Offices_Alexandria_10_front.jpg
France_Offices_Alexandria_12a_front.jpg
Any thoughts are welcome.

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Greaden »

FSAMAAA wrote:
12 Jun 2020 05:27

Same question for Alexandria. The first cancel doesn't look like anything I've seen before (not that I have extensive experience with these ... I don't).

ImageImage

Any thoughts are welcome.

Rob
I could only find a verbal description in Maury. A double circle was used before 1884. The dashed inner circle was used after 1885. So if the 30c stamp is type II, issued in 1899, you have a problem. If it is type I, issued 1876, it might be legit.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

Greaden wrote:
12 Jun 2020 05:43
Image
I could only find a verbal description in Maury. A double circle was used before 1884. The dashed inner circle was used after 1885. So if the 30c stamp is type II, issued in 1899, you have a problem. If it is type I, issued 1876, it might be legit.
I can confirm that it is type II, and the date in the cancel appears to be 22 Oct 1900.

Any other thoughts on this are appreciated.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by jujuboy »

Hi all, any help in identifying what this is would be greatly appreciated, have scoured the net to no avail, maybe someone here knows a little more. Many Thanks
Image

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by jujuboy »

Hi again, anyone have any info on what these are, once again cannot find any info on these color flaws in my Yvert or Michel cats, or anything online for that matter. Many Thanks
Image

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by memphre »

Hi

Your first image is that of what the French call a «Porte timbre» literally a «Stamp holder». They were stuck to the envelope or card and the stamp was then affixed in the center. The idea was to draw attention to a message inscribed in what became a frame for the stamp. They were in mostly in use in the 1920s and 1930s.

There are various models most of which were advertisments for commercial entreprises.

The one you show is for the anti-militarist movement with the following messge: «War to the war» «Not a single man, not a single cent for militarism»

I'm afraid your Sowers are all discolored copies. They all look as they sunbathed for far too long.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by jujuboy »

Thanks for the info Memphre.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Please, could you tell me, if possible, what cancel it is. Could it be colonial ?

40 с -Ceres.jpg

Regards

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

Hello,

I can not read it clearly, but not a colonial cancel in my opinion
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Re: Yokohama Bau Français Datestamp of Fr. PO in Yokohama

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

StampLearner wrote:
19 Jun 2020 03:13
Please, could you tell me, if possible, what cancel it is. Could it be colonial ?

Image

Regards
It is typical YOKOHAMA BAU FRANÇAIS datestamp of Fr. PO in Yokohama.

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gugusg
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

Ok, so not colonial, but French office abroad ;)

nice identification !
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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StampLearner
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Thank you so much, Joy Daschaudhuri, for resoving the conundrum: I was trying to check the cancel through French post-offices in France, and could not find it.

Which catalogue shall I look for additional information?

Also thanks to gugusg for comments

Kind regards

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by brandenburg5 »

Marianne Cinderellas_Purple125_sm.jpg
This cinderella was distributed during the 1949 Citex stamp show in 12 different colors. The designer's name at lower left is J Carré. Does anyone know anything about this person? My searches came up empty.

Also, what is the significance of the 125 overprint?

Thank you.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Hello,

Here is the cancel which I believe is colonial, and might have even been shown somewhere here, as I feel I have seen it in some place. What location does it belong to? Could anyone tell me please?
The stamp itself is far from being perfect, I admit
40_Ceres-orange.jpg

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gugusg
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

PAQ.FR. POINTE A PITRE Guad (Guadeloupe cancel)
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Thank you so much gugusg for a very quick response!

A couple of questions, if possible...
So this is a colonial cancel, but is it a stamp issued for colonies, or is it a French stamp only used in Guadeloupe ?
Also, is the right 40 joined to the frame normal, or a (constant) variety?

Kind regards

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

Hello,

It is a a colonial stamp (unperfed), used in all colonies at that time ;)
The 4 touching the frame is probably a minor variety ;)
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by StampLearner »

Thank you again.

Does the 40c stamp for France look different ? Also, is it a very common cancel ?

Very kind regards

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