France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Greaden »

I checked in Maury the table of the rates in effect from Aug 1926 to April 21, 1930. If Austria counts as "2eme echelon", then it should be the correct rate: 2f40 for a letter + 1f50 for Registration.
JonEboy wrote:I picked this cover up as an addition to my Algeria collection, hoping to demonstrate usage. The cover is from Oran to Vienna, Austria. There's a nice TB label on the back which is a bonus but my question is, can anyone confirm that 3Fr90 is the correct rate for the period, April 1928?

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Also, is there an online resource for checking postal rates from the colonies for this period?

Thanks

Jon

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by JonEboy »

Wow, that was quick!

Thanks Greaden :D

Jon
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by memphre »

Hi

Greaden is right but for the wrong reason. 2è échelon refers to the weight of the letter being between 20 and 50g, first échelon being 0 to 20g.

The rate was applicable to all foreign destinations.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by JonEboy »

Thanks memphre, I will update my annotated notes accordingly.

Re the second question, is there an online resource for these rates or are they just in the catalogues, and if the latter, which catalogue is best?

Thanks

Jon
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Greaden »

The Maury catalogs for the colonies are the only source I am aware of. They are full of tables of postal rates such as the one I consulted upstream:

Image

The abbreviations and the symbols are explained in the introductory pages, but I could not find any discussion of the échelons so made the newbie mistake that Memphre identified. There may be other pitfalls for English speakers.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by memphre »

Hi

I don't know of any online ressource about postal rates of the French Colonies. I'm sure there are books on the subject but the Maury catalogues are the most useful source, much as I find the symbols difficult to distinguish as my eyesight is aging in sync with the rest of me.

They also contain info on subjects such as varieties, cancels, historical background to various issues and much more that you will find nowhere else.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by JonEboy »

Thank you both, much appreciated. Maury catalogue now on my 'to purchase' list.

Jon
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Hi all you experts (Bruno?).
Bought these on Ebay recently and would welcome any comments you might care to make. I have no real knowledge of the value of covers, but I thought the stamps were in good condition and in the case of the first I thought the anchor cancellations might add some value.
I bought the second cover mainly because of the stamps and the fact I have been in Istanbul several times and like it. Also been in Smyrna ( now Izmir and a place I would not return to by choice!)

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

Hello Kipling,

First letter between Marseille and Constantinople french post office, aboard SS Neva (french Imperial Messageries line), probably deposited in the ship mail box before departure. Rate 50 centimes per 7.5 g, here 1 franc for 7.5 to 15 g. P.D. boxed mark, Neva cds and anchor lozenge applied on board by the mail agent. Departure 2 nov 1861, arrival 9 nov. Marseille --> Messine --> Pirée --> Dardanelles --> Constantinople.

Second letter between french post offices of Smyrne and Constantinople, in a closed dispatch, by ship.
Same rate of 50 centimes per 7.5 g. Cds and lozenge 3709 of Smyrne post office, with a P.P boxed mark instead of a P.D. one. (P.D. = paid to destination, P.P = Partially paid, generally up to the destination harbour, there may still be something to pay on arrival, which was not the case here).

I am not able to comment on the values.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Thanks very much Bruno.
I thought "Neva" was a place name! Thanks for clearing things up.
Cheers,
Michael

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

You are welcome.

Actually it seems that the ship's name was NEWA, however the date stamps read NEVA. Anyway it is from the russian river. Was built and entered service in 1858.

Many of this is taken from René SALLES, La Poste Maritime (Vol II).

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by vnmission »

Bc92 wrote:First, France #1(1850) and France #36 (1870) are the same stamp, the second one being issued with perfs. That second stamp was also issued in 1871 unperf for use in Colonies (Col #11).
So we have 3 stamps, the 1st one being 20 years older.

On a cancelled stamp, it is rather easy, most of the time, to tell a colonial cancel from a metropolitan one, by the date or by the type of the cancel.

On an unused stamp, it is more difficult to distinguish France #1 from Colonies #11. The colonial stamp is (exactly like France YT 36) rather less finely printed. The paper is more yellowish-brown. There is also a difference in gum but I am not able to describe it.

Moreover, France #1 had an official reprint in 1862, and France #36 had also a 'Granet' unperf reprint in 1887.

Could you show your stamp, or was it a general question ?

Bruno
Bruno,
Can you explain the difference between Colonies #16 and France #52b, please.
Thank you so much!

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

#52b is the unperf version of the french 4 c cérès.
#16 is the colonial unperf stamp.

No, I am not able to distinguish them. The difference in price is huge though, the colonial being rare in mint condition.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

can you post image of theses stamps ? :)

If 52b is the ceres 4c unperf from France and 16 of colonies the 4c used in cochinchina, I think it is probably not possible to distinguish them.

Stock of colonies have been taken from French stock before perfs. If they have not made a specific printing (which is usually the case) the difference does not exist... If there is a specific printing the difference will be the color of paper/printing.
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Greaden »

I already posted this cover in a different thread - on Aden - but it is relevant here. It is postal stationary from Obock, normally seen as a source of fodder for collectors than of actual mail.

Image

When the headquarters for the colony were moved to Djibouti, the French took a stock of stamps with them. Most Obock postmarks are actually from Djibouti, as with this cover to the Ethiopian city of Dire Dawa:

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by sagi2917 »

Image

French Morocco -
The first stamps of the protectorate were the 1914-1921 ‘Protectorat Français’ overprints on definitives, and this cover is franked with the 10c on 10c red and 15c on 15c orange, cancelled in Kenitra on September 2, 1921.

An interesting note:
Kenitra was renamed Port Lyautey by the French in 1933, before reverting to its original name in 1956

Above is the scan of one of the relevant covers in my collection
Primary interests: Entities, Joint-Issues, Sports (Olympics, Commonwealth, Football, Cricket)
Missing: India - Scott # A1, A7(2a), A43 (Rs.5/25), A48 (PIES-PIES), A5 (4a Inverted)

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by sagi2917 »

Image

The above cover from French Morocco again features a stamp issued initially in 1933
under Aviation - Views of the city theme
Designed by R.Beliot
Primary interests: Entities, Joint-Issues, Sports (Olympics, Commonwealth, Football, Cricket)
Missing: India - Scott # A1, A7(2a), A43 (Rs.5/25), A48 (PIES-PIES), A5 (4a Inverted)

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Eli »

I just received the following nice cover and I thought it might interest visitors of this thread. It sent by registered airmail from Hanoi, Tonkin on April, 25, 1932 to Paris, France (it forwarded to other address in Paris). On the upper left corner, a very poor handstamp, I think of the letters AR (Avis de Récéption or Acusé de Récéption).
Image
It arrived to Paris airport on May 9, 1932 and to the distribution office a day later:
Image
On the back, two small very poor circular handstamps which I can't read and recognise:
Image
Last edited by Eli on 16 Feb 2020 04:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Somerset »

I have recently bought a French collection and this thread is going to be so useful.

Good to come across several others who collect this - it can feel a little lonely on here as a collector of Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

Do any of you attend the French PS meetings in London?

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

Eli wrote:On the back, two small very poor circular handstamps which I can't read and recognise
They are 'cachets de facteur' (mailman stamps), usually seen when the distribution encountered problems. Sometimes you may have a dozen of such stamps on the front and rear.

The left one is from XII i.e. 12th 'arrondissement' in Paris. The other part (a number, illegible) would indicate the mailman.
The right one seems totally beyond reading, but of a similar kind.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Eli »

Bc92 wrote:They are 'cachets de facteur' (mailman stamps), usually seen when the distribution encountered problems. Sometimes you may have a dozen of such stamps on the front and rear.

The left one is from XII i.e. 12th 'arrondissement' in Paris. The other part (a number, illegible) would indicate the mailman.
The right one seems totally beyond reading, but of a similar kind.

Bruno
Thank you very much, Bruno, for the precious information which I will post in Laos thread. Much appreciated.

Speaking about French Indochina, here is another cover sent from Haiphong, North Vietnam on October 12, 1949 (note the use of the name "Vietnam" instead of "Tonkin") to Casablanca, Morocco, arrived on October 18, 1949 - certainly for a rare destination!

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Eli »

Two more items with connection to French Indochina

The first is a registered cover sent on August 26, 1936 from Pakse, Laos via Saigon post office to San Remo, Italy. On the back, transit postmark applied in Saigon and two different arrival postmarks applied in San Remo on September 2, 1936:

Image

Image

Second item is a cover sent in March 1948 from Algeria, I assume to France. A commemorative postmark was applied says "Join the association for Indochina". I appreciate any information about this postmark. Thanks in advance:

Image

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Hyderabadi »

What a fascinating thread - I came here from reading about Gugusg’s Indian cancels - these early stamps are really beautiful. I especially love the eagle & crown series as well as the Alphee Dubois & Napoleon 3 series - some of the best designed among the old classics.

I just procured a few and so surprised that the eagle crown stamps are so small in size - from the images here it would have seemed they would be larger.

Could you discuss the later french colonies stamps as well please... as am sure there is an interest in them.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by sagi2917 »

French India - Complete set of Airmail stamps issued in 1942

Image
Primary interests: Entities, Joint-Issues, Sports (Olympics, Commonwealth, Football, Cricket)
Missing: India - Scott # A1, A7(2a), A43 (Rs.5/25), A48 (PIES-PIES), A5 (4a Inverted)

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Eli »

This postcard was sent in 1905 from Attapeu, Laos to Meuse, France. I like it very much since it was applied with several interesting and very clear postmarks:
- Postmark from Attopeu (Attapeu), Southern Laos applied on February 25, 1905.
- Transit postmark from Bassac (Champasak), applied on March 2, 1905. The capital of Champasak is Pakse which regarded as one of the main cities of Laos and I assume one of the central Lao post offices was located in this city.
- Arrival postmark from Meuse, applied on April 5, 1905.

Image

The front shows people standing on a bridge in Khong Island, Champasak province and a French text written by the sender:

Image

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

There was a discussion below regarding General Colony Yv # 13b - retouched 4 on 40c Ceres. I see in Yvert the pictures of the positions either 146 or 147 show both "larger retouched"4's in the 40c on each side of the stamp. Is there a case where only one of the 4's was retouched and the other is normal?

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

in both positions, only left 4 is retouched as far as I remember
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

Thank you gugusg - I have a 13b - at least sold to me that way by a very reputable US dealer via auction, however no signature or certificate. The retouched 4 shows on the right side, the left is normal. The ones I saw in Yvert are shown for the #5 early Ceres and appear to be on both sides - hence my question. I was excited about the stamp because it has a very nice Pointe a Pitre Guadeloupe cachet and I am collecting the Colonies General issues with interesting cachets.

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

gugusg wrote:in both positions, only left 4 is retouched as far as I remember
I think gugusg's memories are misleading here (hello Guillaume !) Remember the "4" are "retouched" because initially they were "2" (two 20 c cliches were mistakenly used while making the 40 c pane). So all the four "2" figures of two stamps were later transformed into "4".

Sorry that I have no precise picture of the retouched 4s to offer.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

Here is the Yv 13b I am referring to - note that the 4 on the right appears to be "retouched" ? The 4 on the left appears to be "normal".

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

As far as I can say, this is not a 'retouched 4'.

Actually, I found this figure in my computer files :

Image

And your stamp doesn't seem to match any of 146 or 147 features. Note that the point just right of the left 40 is very near to the 0 on its left, while it is dead-centered between the 0 and the C in unretouched stamps.

Of course you will need a second opinion.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

Thanks for posting Bruno - I agree it does not match the cases of 146 and 147. I've been going thru some of the older catalogs of Roumet and Ceres Philatelie to see what other cases might be found. Seems like there is a little variance in what some of the dealers are describing these types are!

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

Well, both have been retouched BUT you can clearly see the retouch only in left very easily

This one is clearly not a retouched and you should ask a refund :)

Do not hesitate to show us your stamps of french general colonies, I love them ! :D
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

French Colony - Yt 23 on cover Paq Anglais from Pointe a Pitre, Guadeloupe to Bordeaux 1879

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Hi,
Can someone help with identifying this stamp?
Is it Y28Aa – a Rothschild reprint? It has partial gum (and a thin).
Can't see what else it could be?
Cheers


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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Hi,
This stamp was in an album I recently acquired and the owner had described it as Scott 43 (ie Spink/Maury 44, Yvert 44A or B).
I always assume my stamps are the common varieties unless there is proof to the contrary, but in this case I am not sure. In particular I am not sure when a dot is in fact a dot and not a dash (such as under the eye in this case).
Can anyone assist?


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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

Kipling wrote:the owner had described it as Scott 43 (ie Spink/Maury 44, Yvert 44A or B).
Sorry, Kipling, this stamp is Spink/Maury or Yvert 45 (= type II), report 3.

44 is less neatly printed, the number of vertical brick lines would be greater (54) than here (51), the neck lines would be made of dots, etc.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Thanks Bruno - not even close!
Cheers,
Michael

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

Kipling,

I didn't see a reply to your question regarding the 10c Laure (Yv 28A) but yes, this appears to be the Rothschild print as it is non perforated. Very nice example.

Carl

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

NCTarheel wrote:Kipling,

---yes, this appears to be the Rothschild print as it is non perforated. Very nice example.

Carl
Thanks Carl.
Cheers,
Michael

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Bc92 »

About the so called Rothschild prints :

This is a philatelic denomination rather than anything more "scientific" : One tends to call Rothschild any kind of Laurated Empire without perfs (the colonial stamps beeing excepted).

Apart from unperf stamps having been possibly offered to Rothschild the banker in Paris, unperf stamps may come from incidents during production, and also from stamps beeing kept for official collections. Due to lack of knowledge and possible changes in appearance under time action and conservation conditions, the various unperf stamps are quite difficult to tell one from another.

Bruno

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by NCTarheel »

Bruno

Very interesting. I can see where that could have occurred. Thanks for the insight.

Carl

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

Bc92 wrote:About the so called Rothschild prints :

This is a philatelic denomination rather than anything more "scientific" : One tends to call Rothschild any kind of Laurated Empire without perfs (the colonial stamps beeing excepted).

Apart from unperf stamps having been possibly offered to Rothschild the banker in Paris, unperf stamps may come from incidents during production, and also from stamps beeing kept for official collections. Due to lack of knowledge and possible changes in appearance under time action and conservation conditions, the various unperf stamps are quite difficult to tell one from another.

Bruno
It is interesting that in some cases the "Rothschilds" are catalogued at more than the perfed version (eg Y26A), and in other cases at far less (eg Y31), which seems to make more sense given their uncertain origin. Is there a record somewhere of the numbers of each "Rothschild" denomination known to have been issued? Or are the catalogues just doing the best they can?

Off topic I suppose but why were stamps given to the Rothschilds at all? Just a goodwill gesture?

Michael

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Ceres
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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Ceres »

Hi,

There are no documents that relate to why Rothschild was given stamps.

Apparently the only thing known is that Napoleon III gifted the Baron with a set of stamps.

It is also a fact that Baron Rothschild became the president of the first "philatelic club" in Paris around 1874.

Being a great collector, he might have asked for a favour years earlier when Napoleon was still in power.

Who knows?

Cheers

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Kipling »

[quote="Ceres"]Hi,

There are no documents that relate to why Rothschild was given stamps.

Apparently the only thing known is that Napoleon III gifted the Baron with a set of stamps.

It is also a fact that Baron Rothschild became the president of the first "philatelic club" in Paris around 1874.

Being a great collector, he might have asked for a favour years earlier when Napoleon was still in power.

Who knows?



A mystery.
Which brings one back to Bruno's description of the Rothschilds as being a "philatelic denomination" rather than anything more specific.
Have to settle for that I guess.
Cheers

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by FSAMAAA »

I recently purchased the following collection ... http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=90433, and I'm starting to wade into it. I received early feedback that it appears to have been a good purchase, but also that there may be some mis-identification contained within its early pages.

An etiquette question for the larger group of France experts here ... should I start posting small sets of images here within this thread, or should I start a new, dedicated thread purely for this collection? I'm open to either path, and am asking solely to make sure I don't derail anything, or change the intent of this long-lived thread.

If someone feels called to chime in with initial corrections to the way some of the early stamps have been identified, I would welcome that. I have no pre-conceived notions about whether the identifications are accurate or not, and I'm not averse to doing my own research. However, I tend to learn best when I'm "standing on the shoulders of giants".

Lastly, I have current (or very recent) copies of Scott (I'm US-based, so it's a starting point), Yvert et Tellier, Maury, and Michel. If there is guidance within one of those catalogs (sorry ... US spelling) that would provide the best path forward, I welcome that advice as well.

Thanks in advance. I'm looking forward to getting a MUCH better understanding of early French stamps.

Rob

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by gugusg »

yes post here some stamps and we will help you to sort it :wink:
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/

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Re: France and French Colonies stamps - Discussion Thread

Post by Lundy »

Looks to be a few a few French post offices abroad amongst the early cancels too 8)

Lundy

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