Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by Allanswood »

satsuma wrote:We are deep into the discussion about the Straits Settlement Torres issue and the only image of the 2d value is a black and white engraving of nearly 150 years ago.

I note the comment that none were in the Brussels find but, has anyone seen one? Can anyone provide a scan?

One would think that whether the series was a new issue scam or saw actual use somewhere the lowest value would not be the hardest to source.

First hit in my google image search - so wasn't hard to find!

Image

Australia Straits Settlement Torres "Stamp" Issue full set
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by DarrenK »

Great work with the mountain peaks Muruk.

If they were Straits Settlement based stamps why would Australia feature so predominately at the top of the stamp?
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by dukeprince »

Today the shire of Torres is administered from Thursday Island which is off the northern tip of Queensland, just maybe a connection ?

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by dukeprince »

satsuma wrote:
One would think that whether the series was a new issue scam or saw actual use somewhere the lowest value would not be the hardest to source.
Until the Brussels find that would be the case, after the find all other values became less scarce overnight, no 2c Stamps were in that find.

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Re: Australia Torres Strait Settlement local stamps info sou

Post by muruk »

DarrenK wrote:If they were Straits Settlement based stamps why would Australia feature so predominately at the top of the stamp?
Yes, that is a puzzlement.

Referring to an earlier post:
mikeg wrote:Here are the relevant pages from Melville's 'Phantom Philately' :D

Image
Filling in between the lines, I would offer the following meaning for the inscription on the stamp:

(For mail between) AUSTRALIA (and) STRAIT SETTLEMENT (via) TORRES (Strait).

The decimal denomination suggests the stamps were for issue from Strait Settlement rather than Australia, OR, the shipping line using them was based in Strait Settlement.

If it can be determined which shipping line operated the purported route, that may provide some valuable clues.
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Re: Australia Torres Strait Settlement local stamps info sou

Post by dukeprince »

muruk wrote:
DarrenK wrote:If they were Straits Settlement based stamps why would Australia feature so predominately at the top of the stamp?
Yes, that is a puzzle
Filling in between the lines, I would offer the following meaning for the inscription on the stamp:

(For mail between) AUSTRALIA (and) STRAIT SETTLEMENT (via) TORRES (Strait).

The decimal denomination suggests the stamps were for issue from Strait Settlement rather than Australia, OR, the shipping line using them was based in Strait Settlement.

If it can be determined which shipping line operated the purported route, that may provide some valuable clues.[/quote]

ABOVE ARE Muruks comments

The shortest route Singapore- Australia would be to North Queensland , if regular transport occured Australia to Thursday Island (in todays shire of Torrens) then that could have been the Stamp owners destination.

There would have been no need for the Stamp owners shipping to deliver to the mainland owing to that already being serviced by Thursday Island to Australia local shipping.

All of this is conjecture but if this is to add to the knowledge and come to a conclusion all thoughts need airing, closed minds lead to no advancement of knowledge , bogus Stamps should not be scarce or get very high Auction prices ever and this has been the case for 100 years for these teasing Stamps?

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Re: Australia Torres Strait Settlement local stamps info sou

Post by dukeprince »

muruk wrote:
DarrenK wrote:If they were Straits Settlement based stamps why would Australia feature so predominately at the top of the stamp?
Yes, that is a puzzlement.

Referring to an earlier post:
mikeg wrote:Here are the relevant pages from Melville's 'Phantom Philately' :D

Image



Mr Google says the first european settlement was at Somerset Cape York Queensland in 1863, it was moved to Port Kennedy in Thursday Island 1877 , Stamps first noticed in 1879 Hmmm.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by dukeprince »

At that time in history what were the goods being carried ?, if it was in the main Australia goods to Singapore rather than Singapore goods to Australia then that would attract Australian investment with a Singapore base hence the cents currency.

New Guinea and other northern Islands would also have been involved in trade I would imagine ,again all conjecture but without it we are dead ended.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by muruk »

It would seem that the layout of the circular inscription on the stamp design was copied from the genuine Straits Settlements stamps issued December 1867 and printed by De La Rue:

Image

Additionally, there seems to have been a shortage of stamps for many years, which may have prompted the production of our subject stamps, whether or not they actually saw postal use.
Last edited by muruk on 19 Apr 2020 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by muruk »

dukeprince wrote:New Guinea and other northern Islands would also have been involved in trade I would imagine ,again all conjecture but without it we are dead ended.
By 1900, there was a separate shipping route from the Singapore Area to Australia's east coast that skirted to the north of New Guinea Island and stopped off at places like Madang, New Britain, Trobriand Islands, and Bougainville. Both cargo and passengers were carried. This was mostly run by German shipping lines because of the German New Guinea connection.

So far, I haven't been able to identify any routes via Torres Strait. I think a detailed examination of shipping arrivals and departures in Trove might be needed.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by agondocz »

Hi,

I found these articles on the American Philatelic Library and the Royal Philatelic Society of London websites:
  • Title Australian Mails via Torres Strait 1874-1880 pp. 53-55
    Author David Ashby
    Publication Date 2000 June
    Subjects AUSTRALIA: Postal History
    Number 294
    Source Postal History

    Title "Mystery" Stamp (Australia - Straits Settlements-Torres)
    Publication Date 1939 Dec
    Subjects Locals and Private Posts
    Type Article
    Source Godden's Gazette

    Title Torres Straits Mail Service
    Author Phil O'Mathy
    Publication Date 1995
    Subjects AUSTRALIA: Postal History
    Month Sep
    Number 17 : 1 67
    Source Australian Posthorn

    Series Title: Atalaya Cinderella Magazine
    Item Title: 15 September 1991; Vol: 17/1 Iss: 34
    Date: 15 Sep 1991
    Number: Vol 17/1 Iss: 34

    Series Title: Postal History Journal
    Item Title: December 2008; Iss: 328
    Date: Dec 2008
    Number: Iss: 328
    Page: 104

    Series Title: Postal History Journal
    Item Title: Australia: Australian mails via Torres Strait 1874-1880
    April 2000; Iss: 294
    Page: 53

    Series Title: A Postscript to the Postal Historian
    Item Title: September 2000; Vol: 50/3 Iss: 221
    Title: Australia: Mails via the Torres Strait
    Page: 155
Unfortunately, both libraries appear to be closed for now.

Best wishes,
AndrewG

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by muruk »

Thank you Andrew. Some of those look to be useful.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:We are deep into the discussion about the Straits Settlement Torres issue and the only image of the 2d value is a black and white engraving of nearly 150 years ago.

I note the comment that none were in the Brussels find but, has anyone seen one? Can anyone provide a scan?

One would think that whether the series was a new issue scam or saw actual use somewhere the lowest value would not be the hardest to source.
Status sold this set recently lot 1792, for $A1,200 plus 20% = $A1,440.


https://www.statusint.com/result.php?id=34

Image

Torres Strait Settlements Stamps: 1870s set 2c-36c, design showing a flag on a peak, believed to be of 1870s origin, as first recorded in about 1879. VF fresh UN, 6c & 36c imperf top or bottom from sheet edge. Very rare as full set of 6 as usually 5 values at most seen (The recent 'Brussels' find had no 2c at all). Similar full sets in our previous auctions have sold for $1800-$2500. (6) (P)
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by dukeprince »

Not bad money for what is often refered to as a bogus issue.

I am curious to know if other so called bogus issues world wide than these and the NSW VIC Murray Steam navigation Stamps fetch this sort of money when sold?

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by Global Administrator »

dukeprince wrote:
I am curious to know if other so called bogus issues world wide than these and the NSW VIC Murray Steam navigation Stamps fetch this sort of money when sold?
No - nothing even close. :mrgreen:

I personally like both issues, and have never regarded the MSNC as bogus, although no genuine postal use of them on cover is not a great sign!

I found a 3d green Murray River Steam Navigation Company Stamp 40 years ago for nothing, in a junk lot ex the USA, with a rhomboid of dots cancel. It had been in that collection for 50 years before that, that I had no reason whatsoever to suspect was fake in any way. As I recall there was a 1d red as well in there damaged, but 40 years on, can't swear to that.

If I remember, Bill Hornadge wrote it up about 1980 in Stamp News. Might even be in his Cinderella handbook? I've misplaced mine.

The fact that pest David Elsmore values these stamps at $100 each (despite usual Public Auction sales at many $1000s a set of 4 = $500+ or so each, in the real world) and the cover at $500 (worth 30 times that in the real world) on his alleged priced website, not only proves he has never owned one, but says volumes about his loopy pricing mantra. Which is - "If I own it - HUGE price - if I do NOT yet do not own it - idiotic low price so I can hopefully buy one cheap off some dope seller". He is a Queenslander of course. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Elsmore does not even know enough about philately, to see these stamps are comb perforated not line perforated, as he states. And even more foolishly claims "full sheets" exist. :roll:

Childish actions like this diminish respect and all confidence in his entire site, which is otherwise quite helpful in general.

Glen
Image
The Loopy pricing "logic" of Dave Elsmore. You really can't make this stuff up!
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by dukeprince »

So it seems we have 2 sets of locals in australia that command prices far in excess of what they perhaps should be according to learned Philatelists.

Does it mean someone knows something or is it a hope of finding out more or is it nostalgia for items that tug at the heart because romantic thoughts of the past.

Whatever it is I am delighted to often view my 2 sets and some other old West Australia Goldfields locals such as the Coolgardie Bicycle/Camel sets and of course my agonising journey to achieve the lake lefroy 6d, perhaps the more mystery there is the more we wish to go down that route .

Stamps that have an impact on us also pull us in, enjoy the journey always.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by satsuma »

Possibly of interest to those reading this thread:

The Queenslander
Sat 14 Oct 1871

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. —THE TORRES STRAITS ROUTE.

THE usual monthly meeting of the committee of the Chamber of Commerce was held on October 11. Present: —Messrs. J.S. Turner (chairman), F. Hart, J. Hart, Box, W.J. Paige, Fenwick, and H. O'Reilly.

THE TORRES STRAITS MAIL ROUTE.

A letter was read from Mr. A. Fraser, enclosing the following communication from the Chamber of Commerce, Batavia: —

Batavia, May 27,1871.
Since our chamber was first established in 1864, the great importance of a regular steam communication between Australia and Netherlands-India has never ceased to occupy our attention. Our best endeavors have been directed to procure, by means of steam communication, an exchange of the productions of both countries, and were loath to remain behind those in so many other parts of the world who, by establishing steam communication, have been able to advance the interests of commerce and industry.

In this direction we have found a true ally in the Government of Netherlands-India, which desires nothing better than to co-operate with the Governments of Australia in bringing about the desired steam communication.

The Imperial Government in Holland has also repeatedly taken credit in the annual Indian Budget for a considerable amount for subsidy to support such a line, and our Parliament, impressed with the great importance of the subject, has, in every instance, readily voted the amount asked for —under this very natural condition, however, that the share in the subsidy to be contributed by them must mainly depend upon the amount of pecuniary support to be given by the Australian colonies, which, equally with Netherlands-India, must derive advantage from it.

All efforts thus far made, however, have led to no result, owing to circumstances beyond the control of the Government.

One more attempt, and probably the last one, it is now determined to make, which, for its success, will depend upon the amount of support and sympathy it meets with in Australia.

Mr. A. Fraser, a member of our chamber, and standing at the head of the well-known and prosperous Netherlands-India Steam Navigation Company, having been encouraged to do so by our Government, has formed an entirely new plan for a steam communication between the two countries by which all the most important commercial ports are to be called at, and our Government is ready to contribute a fair share of the very moderate subsidy asked for by him to carry it out.

He leaves in a couple days for Australia for the purpose of negotiating with the several colonial Governments, in the hope of inducing each of them to bear also their share of the subsidy.

We earnestly hope that your chamber may be convinced of the great importance of Mr. Fraser's undertaking, and may be induced to lend it your powerful support.

This letter will be handed you by Mr. Fraser, whom we hope to have soon back again in our midst with the cheering intelligence that our so long-cherished wishes have at last been fully realized.

A. van Delden, President,
J. E. Henny, Secretary.

Mr. A. Fraser was present as a delegate from the Batavian Chamber of Commerce to lay before the committee the advantage of opening up the Torres Straits mail route. He said he assumed there was little, doubt on the part of members of the committee that the route which he had been deputed to advocate would, if opened op, prove of great advantage to the interests of the community of Queensland. As a postal route, letters from England would certainly be delivered two days later than by the present Suez service, but to the other parts of the Eastern World, Java, India, and China, would be delivered and received earlier than was at present the case; and as regarded commercial advantages, the line would compare favorably with any at present in existence.

It was not likely that the advantage of a wool trade would be opened up similar to that now taking place by the San Francisco route, but, should the slightest opportunity be offered, he only hoped that it could be made of equal value in this respect. Owing to the opening of the Suez Canal, there was no doubt that this line would open to other places besides these colonies, great commercial advantages, and lead to an interchange of products, which could not fail to be beneficial.

With regard to the action of the delegates at the late Conference at Melbourne, he failed to see how their decision would affect the opening up or otherwise of this route, as he had reason to believe that, before they commenced their deliberation, it was understood that this line would not form one of the subjects of discussion, but would be left to the action of the New South Wales and Queensland Governments alone, as the Cape route had been left to the action of Victoria, and of which they would perceive no mention had been made more than of the Torres Straits route in the published decision of the Conference.

Five years ago, at the request of the Government of Queensland, the N.I.S.N. Co. had tendered to perform this service for £44,000 per annum. They now proposed to carry out the same service for the sum of £37,000, of which amount £10,000 had been promised, and would be paid by the Netherlands Government, leaving the balance of £27,000 to be provided by Queensland and New South Wales. The proposition, as laid before the respective Governments, had proved satisfactory, as far as he could learn, and it was merely now a question of the division of the subsidy between the two colonies.

Seeing that Queensland would derive the greatest benefit from this service, she would have, of course, to bear the heaviest portion of the burden, and her part of the subsidy had been estimated at £18,000, leaving the remaining £9000 to be provided by New South Wales.

In an interview which he had with Mr. Duffy, that gentleman had said that he would like to see this service opened up, as it would be of benefit to Victoria in a commercial point of view, and on that ground some small support might be expected from that colony, but the action of the Government would depend greatly upon the representations made by the Melbourne Chamber of Commerce.

If they were to judge by the use which Victoria had made of the line when it was temporarily established by the running of the Souchays and Hero she would be amply recouped for her support by the revenue she would derive from postage of letters, &c.

It was proposed, supposing Sydney to be the Australian terminus of the line, to call at Brisbane Roads, Gladstone, Bowen, and Cape York; but, of course, these details would entirely depend upon the requirements of the Government.

He might remark that the Conference lately sitting had postponed altogether the question for a year and a half, when tender would be called for carrying out the two services decided upon, and then would come the question whether any result would follow. Whereas this line by Torres Straits could be opened within six months from signing the contract. The steam ship company with which he was connected was powerful and wealthy, and had a fleet of thirteen steamers. The distance was computed to be 4080 miles, and a rate of speed of nine knots would be guaranteed. It was calculated that it would take nineteen days' steaming from Sydney to Batavia, and two days from the latter port to Singapore, with which port there was weekly communication with Batavia.

Another great advantage connected with this service was that the line of steamers would run along the line of the ocean cable, so that in case of any break down of the telegraphic communication the steamers could bring on the messages. Owing to the large connections of the steam company which he represented, fine goods could be carried on a through bill of lading from Liverpool via the Suez Canal to Brisbane. In conclusion, he might remark that a line from New Caledonia to Bowen could be run in connection with the proposed service, especially as the French Government would no doubt subsidize such an undertaking, as they were anxious to have their mails and passengers carried by the Messageries Imperiale.

Sundry questions were then asked Mr. Fraser by members present, regarding the details of the working of the service, all of which he answered satisfactorily.

Mr. F. H. Hast, seeing that no further information was desired, proposed a vote of thanks to Mr. Fraser. That gentleman had come a long distance out of his road to lay his views before them, and he was sorry no more tangible result could be offered to him at present. As it was only on Monday last the committee had been informed of Mr. Fraser's arrival in Brisbane, very little time had been allowed for the consideration of his scheme. At their next meeting, however, the matter would, doubtless, be fully gone into.

The motion was seconded by Mr. J. Hart, and carried unanimously.

Mr. Fraser was very much obliged for the kind reception that had been accorded to him, and he could only say now or never was the time to bring the matter to an issue. No doubt some little pressure was required to be brought to bear upon the Government of this colony, but he could safely say that his opinion was that if the present attempt to establish the route resulted in failure, the Netherlands Government would hardly enter upon the matter again, as they had incurred considerable trouble and expense on the present occasion.

He would remind them that the line was not a competing line with any at present in existence, and therefore if its establishment could not be brought about entirely by its own merits and the advantages it offered of opening up communication between these colonies and the Dutch possessions and the East generally, he thought no future effort would be made by his Government to carry it out.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local st

Post by dukeprince »

Thanks Satsuma, it is not impossible that the Torres Straits Stamps were printed ahead of the establishment of the service, so if it never eventuated then that the stamps exist is not that surprising.

Nor is it that they ended up in Brussels as cinderellas to be sold to the market by a person who did that as part of his normal business, that no 2c stamps were at Brussels perhaps it makes sense the lower values were added to packets or collections first as in save the best for later.

All this is conjecture but without thoughts expressed no further thought will be forthcomming,... all inputs welcome.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by jeremy29 »

Hi Dukeprince.

The Torres Straits stamps shown here are, so far as the Australian Torres Strait is concerned, either phantom issues or fakes, irrespective of when they were first created. They were never issued by the Queensland authorities and no additional stamps other than normal colonial state issues were ever required for the Australian to Europe mail route via the Torres Straits route - officially or otherwise.

Some auction houses have been taken in by them (so far as any Australia connection is concerned) and they have also subsequently been produced as copies by the Taiwanese printing firm that specialises in these sorts of activities on Ebay. Certainly there is no evidence of these ever having officially existed or postally used in Queensland.

Regarding Torres Strait and Torres Straits, the strait between Australia and British New Guinea was known as Torres Straits until about 1900 when the term Torres Strait gradually starting coming into use and for at least the last 50 years it has been known as Torres Strait.

Regards

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by muruk »

They appear to have existed unofficially since 1879, unless the magazines that mentioned them are also modern forgeries.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by dukeprince »

Muruk is correct mentioned in 1879 literature, and can someone explain why they sell for big money whenever they appear and thats not just this decade they are historic big money items, bogus issues world wide do not attract that kind of money .

It would seem that those who dismiss as bogus would never bid high at auction so that leaves us with collectors who will put there money where there mind is are prevelent in the market, they cannot all be uninformed bidders.

I hope the full story can be explained sometime , it is a most interesting mystery.
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Re: Australia Torres Strait Settlement local stamps info sou

Post by Global Administrator »

mikeg wrote:
18 Aug 2015 16:18
Here are the relevant pages from Melville's 'Phantom Philately' :D

Image

Image

He gives dates of 1872 for the Murray issue and 1879 for the Torres.

The good thing about Melville - he always gives references.

Yes it seems clear as far back as 1879 these Torres Strait Settlement stamp were certainly reported as existing.

Glen



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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by satsuma »

I was looking at a 2 vol SG Prestige album today published in 1894.

It included spaces for all kinds of related material not just postage stamps.

There were issuing entities I had never heard of before.

The pacific steamship company had spaces allocated.

The Torres Strait stamps were not.

To me this would suggest that Stanley GIbbons had already discounted them as album weeds.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:
06 Jun 2020 16:05


The pacific steamship company had spaces allocated.

The Torres Strait stamps were not.

To me this would suggest that Stanley GIbbons had already discounted them as album weeds.
Not at all.

SG typically listed only things that had PO approved POSTAL use. Even fully accepted local stamps like the various 1890s WA Coolgardie Camels and 6d Lake Lefroy, or the many 19th Century NZ Pigeongram stamps were never listed or priced by SG.

The Lake Lefroy sell well and get into the 5 figure mark.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

This unique Die Proof of the 1864 1d green Murray Steam Navigation Company local stamp (in the colour of the issued 3d) sold for 1100 Euro = $A1,800 at Kohler in Germany yesterday, lot 6202. I was under bidder.

Anyone who thinks these were cheapie fakes, needs to do a bit more research! There were engraved steel dies made.

1864/73, Steamer 1 penny green, proof from an engraved die on thin card (30x29mm), without gum, a very fine and unique item. Provenance: ex collection E.F. Hurt

Described in S. Ringstrom and H.E. Tester "The Private Ship Letter Stamps of the World - Part 2" page 21.



This unique Die Proof of the 1864 1d green Murray Steam Navigation Company local stamps sold for 1100 Euro = $A1,800 at Kohler in Germany yesterday.  I was under bidder.
This unique Die Proof of the 1864 1d green Murray Steam Navigation Company local stamps sold for 1100 Euro = $A1,800 at Kohler in Germany yesterday. I was under bidder.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by dukeprince »

Sorry you missed the Proof Glen, lots of detail visable.

Someone else or even several others considered it worth more than a bogus issue would make.

Is there any info available on E F Hurt the previous owner?

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »



image0-014.jpg

I purchased this cool survivor from Canada this week, for a lot of money, via a member here.

All been on this ancient album page since the Nineteenth Century. :lol: :lol:

Seller assures me all stamps look sound.

The 2d and 3d Murray Steam Navigation Company local stamps high values are FAR better centered than generally seen. I'll stock those at $A750 the pair which is a steal for well centred. Ugly centred sets of 4 get several $1000s, as can readily be seen in posts above. :lol:

I'll sell off the full set of 5 Echuca Railway stamps separately for $A500. (Even the low value sells for $A140!) -

https://www.hipstamp.com/listing/ib-australia-victoria-echuca-railways-parcel-1-2-d/26571510

Les Molnar dates those Echuca Railay Stamps Victoria to 1876, and they are all rare -

https://www.stampsofvictoria.com/railway.php

The mint Victoria 1884 1d Stamp Statute SG 220 (cat £150) gives a good idea clue to the age of this page I think. It will be $A70 - oddly a very rare stamp for a 1d value.

I'll feel like a bit of a philatelic vandal soaking them all off to be honest, after near 150 years. If a keen Victoria collector wants to keep this intact as an Exhibit piece let me know - I would do the page for $A1,100. :mrgreen:

Glen


Echuca Railway Stamps Victoria from 1876
Echuca Railway Stamps Victoria from 1876
image0-014.jpg
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When we talk UNIQUE in stamps -- this certainly makes the grade!
When we talk UNIQUE in stamps -- this certainly makes the grade!
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by dukeprince »

Awesome find Glen , they make an old mans heart beat a bit faster.

That Stamps can do that is the wonderful part of this hobby, long may it be thus.

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Re: Torres Strait Islands local stamps info wanted.

Post by Global Administrator »

.
This is NORMAL perfs and centering. :lol: :lol:

Global Administrator wrote:
17 Aug 2015 13:40

Image
"Quite a good set"

The set 4 of the Murray Steam Navigation Co (MSNC) "locals" of Victoria illustrated above is of typical usual horrid appearance. There are also often thins, creases and toning on these when you look on the back. Our sadly departed colleague Simon Dunkerley paid over $1,000 for this very set above at auction a decade back, and told me it was 'quite a good set' and later sold it on eBay for well over $2000. I later looked at the photo, and laughed my head off and reminded him of his comment now and again. :lol:
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by dukeprince »

The elusive half pence version is to be auctioned by Pheonix for a reserve of $3,800 on estimate of $5000.

Hows that for a bogus issue according to some.

It has a free bonus as well its actually torn in half and joined up with the worlds most expensive Stamp hinge ever it seems and does appear to be a Vacum Cleaner catch bag rescue stamp.

Do I want it sure , can I afford it no, but I would run towards you at lightning speed if it was $1000 buy now, it is a most desirable item indeed.

Scan_20200715 (3).jpg

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Instead of day-dreaming about procuring rare $5000 stamps for $1000, and adding half the detail in your lazy and lopsided Mono scan, how about using some grey matter, and noting a lot number and Auction date - August 7, 2020 ?

Another damaged Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamp HALF PENCE was sold a few weeks back in Europe. I was under-bidder. At over TEN times estimate.


Murray Steam Navigation Company local stamp - HALF PENCE denomination
Murray Steam Navigation Company local stamp - HALF PENCE denomination
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Global Administrator wrote:
15 Jul 2020 08:58
Instead of day-dreaming about procuring rare $5000 stamps for $1000

dukeprince, such a dreamer :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Half Pence is to be auctioned in one week, 7th August 2020. No bids yet.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

The auction including the Echuca cover has been delayed, from May 2020 to January 2021.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by dukeprince »

MJ's pet wrote:
01 Aug 2020 16:16
Global Administrator wrote:
15 Jul 2020 08:58
Instead of day-dreaming about procuring rare $5000 stamps for $1000
dukeprince, such a dreamer :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Half Pence is to be auctioned in one week, 7th August 2020. No bids yet.

I am happy to appear to the Stampboards populace as a dreamer in direct comparison to what your posts have revealed about yourself.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

First, dukeprince wants a WA Lake Lefroy local for $1,000. Now he wants a *unique* Murray River Half Pence steamer stamp for $1,000. (Reserve: $3,800 +BP).

Is there anything else you would like for $1,000? Maybe something from the Royal Philatelic Collection perhaps?

At least the Half Pence meets dukeprince's exacting condition standards. :lol:

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

MJ's pet wrote:
01 Aug 2020 16:18
The auction including the Echuca cover has been delayed, from May 2020 to January 2021.
Image

Hope the bidders do not do any research and find this thread. :lol: :lol: :lol:

This Echuca 1869 Murry Steam Navigation Company cover via paddle steamer KELPIE is now regarded as a total fake. The Swiss Estimate is into 5 figures. :lol:

The underlying cover is genuine of course, but the local was added later, as was the fake dated signature. It appears to have been a defective stamp when added, thinned at top, with pen writing on reverse "bleeding" to centre as can be seen.

Looking at this close up, one can clearly see the faker did a pencil tracing impression of the fake signature first - to the right of what he ended up with using. The "10" of date shows it very clearly. He did not erase/disguise it very well.

Rod Perry reports above tracing impressions on the reverse of this same cover showed the same characteristics. He states it is a fabricated forgery with an added 3d MSNC. Rod formed the finest collection of Victoria ever assembled and examined the cover closely.

Dr. Geoff Kellow and Tony Presgrave (who lives on the Murray and has a nice collection of this area) have told me they do not believe it is genuine.
.

Echuca 1869 Murry Steam Navigation Company cover via paddle steamer KELPIE is now regarded as a total fake.
Echuca 1869 Murry Steam Navigation Company cover via paddle steamer KELPIE is now regarded as a total fake.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Half Pence Murray River unsold.

A lot of money for a cinderella ripped clean in half.
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »


Yes, rare, bit condition ALWAYS counts!

Scanned my vintage album piece and the MSNC stamps were superbly centred for these - the Murray SNC and Echuca Railways set 5 were all fresh mint original gum, affixed to page at top in each case.



Murray Steam Navigation Company Stamp
Murray Steam Navigation Company Stamp
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image0-010.jpg
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image0-014.jpg
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Phoenix Auctions wrote:The stamps were printed by HP Niven & Co of Ballarat.

Is there any evidence for this statement - other than lazily quoting some cinderella book?

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by satsuma »

There was an FW Niven and Co based in Ballarat about that time, operating out of 9 Lydiard St in 1873.
They were commercial stationers, engravers, lithographers and general printers.

https://bih.federation.edu.au/index.php/F._W._Niven_&_Co.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

MJ's pet wrote:
07 Aug 2020 17:52
Phoenix Auctions wrote:The stamps were printed by HP Niven & Co of Ballarat.

Is there any evidence for this statement - other than lazily quoting some cinderella book?

Image

Vast amount of references, including no less than Jack Cato. As you will have seen earlier on his thread if you bothered to read it. :roll: :roll:

Image

Cato was a very senior collector of the pre-war era and a President of the Royal Philatelic Society Victoria in 1935. Cato was also a professional photographer in Melbourne, and hence the superb portrait photo. Blamire/Blamyre Young was a keen stamp collector of course. And is officialy credited with designing the Kangaroo and Map series stamps.

Cato's stamp legacy is greatly under-rated, and Cato owned a major collection, and once owned the finest KGV 1d red piece existing -

Global Administrator wrote:This was Arthur Gray's block of the 1d Red KGV head with PRE-Substitued Cliches ... the lower left 2 units.

The damage famously was done by rats gnawing at the plate when in storage during WW1 or so legend has it!

Sold for $85,000 after the sale. A few folks had sealed offers in for it, me included, as it is a unique block, and I think at $85,000 was great value for the person who offered more than me. :mrgreen:
Image

Image
Description:

ONE PENNY RED COMB PERF SMOOTH PAPER: 1d carmine-red block of 6 [28-30/34-36] with both Rusted (Pre-Substituted) Clichés [34-35] BW #71(2)j & k (SG 21ca), lightly mounted. A highly important item.

The ACSC states at Note 7 on page 4/81 that "Mint examples are very rare..." and that this is the only multiple including both affected units in private hands: Cat $125,000 (£32,000+++). Ex Alec Rosenblum, Rasmussen, Cato, Herbert McNess and Greg Deleuil.

Michael Drury Certificate (2015).

In Dr. Geoff Kellow's estimation, "this is the greatest Penny Red item in private hands".
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Satsuma - Yes the firm once existed, but no evidence that the firm printed these stamps.

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

MJ's pet wrote:
07 Aug 2020 18:14
... no evidence that the firm printed these stamps.

Do you READ anything?

Numerous impeccable sources early 20th Century say Niven printed them. What YOUR latest conspiracy theory is, is totally irrelevant.

Glen
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Glen Stephens wrote:Dr. Geoff Kellow and Tony Presgrave (who lives on the Murray and has a nice collection of this area) have told me they do not believe it is genuine.

Tony Presgrave must have undergone some kind of recent religious conversion, for he wrote not long ago (in 2008) that the cover was a "major discovery". Not a word breathed about not being genuine.


He does admit there is no evidence the stamps were printed by Niven of Ballarat and says this conclusion was arrived at "by deduction" i.e. guesswork.



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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

MJ's pet wrote:
07 Aug 2020 18:22

Tony Presgrave must have undergone some kind of recent religious conversion, for he wrote not long ago (in 2008) that the cover was a "major discovery". Not a word breathed about not being genuine.


Tony (who is a member here - I'll pass this on) told me at a far more recent Canberra Exhibit, more recent than that 12 year old piece you dug up, that he has done more work on these. The cover is bodgie he assured me. Kellow, agreed, and did Rod Perry.

The signature is FORGED. Traced on clumsily as my image above shows all with eyes.

MJsPet is probably the only person on the planet who thinks it IS kosher.

If YOU believe you are philatelically wiser than Jack Cato, past president of the RPSV etc .. only in your mid will that be so. :roll:

Glen
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Glen fails to grasp the distinction between primary and secondary evidence.

What some silly old buffer writes in some stamp book, journal, mag is not evidence. It is pure conjecture.

There is no primary evidence that Niven printed these stamps. If you have any, please post it here. We will be waiting a long time.

Jack Cato was a prize goose. He once wrote that he owned colour trials and proofs of Tasmania's 1st issue. No such thing ever existed and no one ever saw them. Not even Bill Purves. Any statement by Jack Cato belongs on the category: "I read it in the newspaper so it must be true". :lol:

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by Global Administrator »


I can only repeat.

Global Administrator wrote:
07 Aug 2020 18:32

If YOU believe you are philatelically wiser than Jack Cato, past president of the RPSV etc .. only in your mid will that be so. :roll:

Glen

Only yesterday you were repeatedly telling the world, and looking dumber and dumber each time you insisted you were right, nylon date wheels were never used on steel Australia PO cds cancels (many 1000s were!) -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=91648


And now we have today's clueless Crusade. :roll: :roll:
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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by satsuma »

MJ's pet wrote:
07 Aug 2020 18:14
Satsuma - Yes the firm once existed, but no evidence that the firm printed these stamps.

I think you missed my point, perhaps.

The lithography firm I was referring to was owned by FW Niven, i.e. Frederick William Niven; not HP Niven. All the trove advertising references refer to it in this way. I can find no reference to a HP Niven.




F. W. Niven
F. W. Niven

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

satsuma wrote:
07 Aug 2020 19:12
MJ's pet wrote:
07 Aug 2020 18:14
Satsuma - Yes the firm once existed, but no evidence that the firm printed these stamps.
I think you missed my point, perhaps.

The lithography firm I was referring to was owned by FW Niven, i.e. Frederick William Niven; not HP Niven. All the trove advertising references refer to it in this way. I can find no reference to a HP Niven.



Thanks Satsuma. Very well spotted. 8-)

There was indeed a printer at Ballarat named Niven. But no evidence he printed any steamer stamps.

His identity and initals over the years have become a moveable feast: Can't these clowns do anything right? :lol:

H.P. Niven - Phoenix Auctions
H.F. Niven - Jack Cato and his band of followers
F.W. Niven - newspaper advertising
H.N. Niven - his son.

Would anyone else like to step forward and claim "Someone" Niven as the printer? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Torres Strait Settlement & Murray Steam Nav. Co local stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Niven Ballarat Star 5 Dec 1905 p2.jpg
Ballarat Star 5 Dec 1905 p2

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