Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shades?

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Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shades?

Post by satsuma »

One of my interests is the quantities extant of rare shades of KGV sidefaces.

For example ACSC 110g (4d very deep buff orange) has the notation only several used copies known. Similarly ACSC 123f (5d intensely dark black brown) is noted as very rare.

Has anyone any explanation for why there are so few? Do we know which post offices issued them? Would it be helpful if a wiki similar to ½d line perf census were started?

Neither of these stamps were present in the Arthur Gray auction, and only the 5d appeared in the Hardy auction.

It sold for $19,000 plus fees on a $5,000 estimate.The link is -

http://www.phoenixauctions.com.au/myimage.htm?/jpg3501/AUSTRALIA__5d_Chestnut_3501005.jpg

To my uninitiated eyes this looks to be an overinked example more than an a distinctive shade. No doubt those who have seen the actual stamp will have a different opinion, and probably rightly so.

Micheal Eastick has on offer an extremely dark shade 5d "Not the very scarce Intensely Dark (Black) Brown but no far off it" for significantly less $$$.

The link is http://www.stampboards.com/images/michaeleastick/Images/INV-49052itExt.JPG

I'm not sure whether uploading these images to stampboards through photobucket would infringe any copyright laws, could moderators please advise?

What I would find most useful in such cases is the rare stamp scanned with another shade at the same time to eliminate as much as possible any equipment differences. This would allow a better understanding of how distinct the shade variation is.

Are members here able to provide further information?
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by fromdownunder »

satsuma wrote:I'm not sure whether uploading these images to stampboards through photobucket would infringe any copyright laws, could moderators please advise?
Mod comment:

Uploading scans from secondary sources constitutes "fair use" when used only for discussion purposes, and not for commercial or private gain.

However, depending on the software you use, and the monitors I and others use, we may not even see the "proper" colours, per the same colours that you see so it is always an issue when discussing shades in an on-line discussion. And colour vision, even when viewed directly in real life, is also a widely different variant between we hairless apes.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Thanks Norm

I'm getting this message when I preview the images. Could you help?

It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by fromdownunder »

Are you using Photobucket or Imgur? If Photobucket, you need to look around on your Photobucket home page and default your scans to no more than 800 x 600, as this is the maximum that the Stampboards software can handle. If Imgur, I cannot help.

One more thought - you need to use the exact [IMG] file name from your account to allow this to translate to Stampboards. Any change at all, and it will not load.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Hi Norm
I'm using photobucket. Both the images are smaller than 800*600.
There are nine options to paste as links:
Email & IM, direct, html, img, html embed, flash embed, slideshow, story, and story embed.
I have tried each of these in turn and then checked the preview screen.
I get either just text or the error message.

I checked out Glen's how to page which suggests you only need the "img" format. It's unsuccessful.
My web browser is Opera. Any more ideas?

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

OK. I've mucked around a lot and here we are:
Here is the Hardy image

Image

and here is the Eastick image
Image

What happened was that I was clicking the image button at the top of the post reply box and inserting the link between where the cursor was flashing.

Perhaps you could delete all the previous how to posts, Norm. Thanks

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by doug2222usa »

I can see why you at least consider over-inking.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Kainnikanada »

No country name nor in the form of a question. WTF?

Isn't the "...Geo V help from the experts..." the proper forum for these types of questions?
Looking for NSW cut-down relief date stamps, as seen in my avatar, to add to my collection.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

The title was
Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades
Don't you consider Australia a country?

The questions were
Has anyone any explanation for why there are so few? Do we know which post offices issued them? Would it be helpful if a wiki similar to ½d line perf census were started?

Are you having a bad day?

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Kainnikanada »

satsuma wrote:The title was
Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades
Don't you consider Australia a country?

The questions were
Has anyone any explanation for why there are so few? Do we know which post offices issued them? Would it be helpful if a wiki similar to ½d line perf census were started?

Are you having a bad day?
The heading should give a clue as to what follows. This is an international board i.e. it's not restricted to Australian topics regardless of what your opinion is.

I was taught not to make shortcuts. Making assumptions can lead you down the wrong road as you see here in your heading and in the arrogance of the response you've provided!
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Interesting.
I would have thought arrogance was making two errors (namely there was no country mentioned, nor no questions) in a post critical of someone who has been a member for two days and not being man enough to admit it.
I'm seriously wondering if this board is for me

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Kainnikanada »

satsuma wrote:Interesting.
I would have thought arrogance was making two errors (namely there was no country mentioned, nor no questions) in a post critical of someone who has been a member for two days and not being man enough to admit it.
I'm seriously wondering of this board is for me
Effective communication results in less misunderstandings.

We suggest members read their words carefully. We cannot read your mind and vice versa so since words here are free use as many as you wish. A terse posting is not necessary.

No insult intended.

It was the tone of your response that was worth a 1,000 words.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Allanswood »

Has someone hit the egg nog a bit to hard in a Canadian heatwave?

The terse post was yours. :shock:

I find the KGV experts thread is basically a "what plate position is this stamp" thread and many other and varied questions get buried or ignored. I know that I've asked some only to have them disappear in a flurry of plate flaw questions.

Makes it rather difficult to isolate a particular type of question when some assume that every question ever raised must go into that thread.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Kainnikanada »

Allanswood wrote:Has someone hit the egg nog a bit to hard in a Canadian heatwave?

The terse post was yours. :shock:

I find the KGV experts thread is basically a "what plate position is this stamp" thread and many other and varied questions get buried or ignored. I know that I've asked some only to have them disappear in a flurry of plate flaw questions.

Makes it rather difficult to isolate a particular type of question when some assume that every question ever raised must go into that thread.

Doesn't the title of that thread encompass all research? I don't see "flaws only" as part of it.

I believe it's self evident most Stampboards members do not use the search button at the bottom of the page so the less divergent posts we have the better this site is. The innumerable posts in the wiki will attest to this.

Or would you prefer to read the same questions posed ad inifitum?
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by ewen s »

Hi satsuma,

You are nearly there with the images but I'm seeing the same stamp twice.

Please keep at it, this is a great place and advisory posts on thread titles are really meant to improve the board, and not meant to sound critical.

Cheers,

Ewen :D

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Hi Ewen
I must admit to some confusion about images on this board. There appears to be four types:

Images that are there as soon as you open a thread
The images I posted to the "Show us your BLOCKS of Stamps" thread today are like this

Images that used to be there when you open a thread but are now only a link
Some of the stamp wiki images are like this

Images that have been posted quite recently but don't appear to auto open but do if you click on the link
The images I tried to post above are like this

Images that have a placeholder in a thread but no link is there.
JonEboy made a post today in "Show us your BLOCKS of Stamps" which is like this

Are these variances due to the use of different image hosting sites or idiosyncratic to my browser?

Anyway, I'll try again with the KGV images

Image

Image

These still don't auto-open. I'd appreciate knowing more.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Allanswood »

I think it's your browser. Someone else a while ago mentioned a similar problem with Opera. Easy to confirm though. Just try a different browser (IE, Chrome, Firefox - I have them all as sme sites I need to use will not work on some browsers), for a few minutes and look at the same threads again.

Your 2 images are now showing the correct stamps.

As for the first larger image, I have no idea why that is referred to as intensely dark black brown.
To me (yes, I know all screen differs), I'm seeing a good strong chestnut colour that isn't that overinked.

Which Hardy auction was it? The image tag itself suggest that the stamp is Chestnut.
I'm trying to find the lot description .
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by PBR »

Ken, the images in your last post do "open automatically", at least here, with Firefox as the browser. Well done. :)

Cheers


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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by ewen s »

Good work with the codes Ken 8)

All the board needs to show the image is the part between [img]and[/img]. Including the whole string with [URL] at each end will not only show the image here, but does provide a live link that will take you to the host image site if clicked on.

I know this is off-topic but if I were to link to the instructions I would still need to post here. Hope this is OK.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Hi Allanswood
Just saw your question
The lot number is 332, Stuart Hardy collection auction, Part 1, 2 Nov 2012
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by mobbor »

I agree with some of the comments above:-

1. even spectacular and spectactularly rare shades will not necessarily show up accurately on anyone's monitor;

2. the Hardy & Eastick images look completely different- Hardy's looks chestnut- I suppose it could be 123B, deep bright chestnut- & neither look remotely like 123F, intensely dark ("black") brown.

Generally speaking, we don't know where these scarce shades came from. Presumably they weren't recognised as such when they were issued- otherwise they wouldn't be so rare, they would have been bought up at the time. And new shades are still being 'discovered'.

An example is the 1½d die 1 deep orange, which appeared for the first time in the latest edition of the specialist catalogue. As it happens, I have a copy (absolutely no point in scanning it, I tried): mine is the 10th known and it has exactly the same date as the only other known dated copy, BUT, comes from a different capital city.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Thanks Mobbor,
But in principle did they mix up a bucket of ink to get the shade, do the print run until the ink ran out, and then mix up a new bucket

or

was each colour of ink in a separate reservoir, which the machine mixed during printing and potentially one reservoir ran dry before the others?

I'm still interested to know whether we are aware of post offices known to be associated with these shades and whether a census like the ½d green line perf is worth doing?

Also if you scanned your 1½d deep orange by itself it probably wouldn't be that much help as you say, but what about if you scanned it between two common stamps say, 2d orange 95e and 4d orange 110a?

Would that not give everyone an idea of its actual colour?
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by josto »

Hi!

I think it could of course be an interesting goal to create a thread with all shades, especially the rare ones!

The main problem could of course be the difficulties with different scanner settings and different monitor settings.

If anyone has some of the rare shades as certified ones, perhaps it could be possible to scan them aside other certified common shades. So perhaps we could get an idea about how a special shade shpuld look like compared to others!?

Just see below the collection of KGV 5d single wmk single-line perf. issues! There are three listed shades in ACSC, so there are surely many sub-types!

In my collection there are three stamps standing out in darkness and brightness, which I think could be a better shades, but I don`t know how the ACSC 122C "dark chestnut" should look like (three examples in first row).

Image

I hope it can be possible to create such a thread!

Greetings
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by doug2222usa »

In a similar vein, yesterday I created a table for American collectors, converting Gibbons 7th Edition numbers into Scott numbers, in an Excel spreadsheet.

Before I publish it, or email it to anybody, I would like someone with long experience in George V to check it for accuracy; it consists of about 60 line items, with the following column headings, left to right:

Gibbons (7th Edition) Catalog Numbers
Scott Catalog Numbers
Denomination
Lowest MINT* and Lowest USED* C.V. for each Gibbons major number
Color**
Watermark**
Perforation**
Issue Date**
Remarks***

============
*This establishes a baseline value. If someone sees a copy at a stamp show, he/she knows it catalogs AT LEAST the amount shown. Lowest prices for MINT and for USED may not reflect the same stamp.

Some Gibbons major numbers have a dozen sub-letters, including errors, shades, etc.; it was not my intent to go to this level. The catalog values are unfortunately out-of-date, i.e., from 2012, as there are later editions. George V punctures/perfins are not included, because they are not in Scott, and because there are many fakes around.

**Data taken from Gibbons Edition 7.

***Additional useful information.

============
There's a lot of Gibbons data incorporated into this Table, so I am once again cautious about copyright laws. I am not charging anyone for a copy. Also, anyone may take my format and convert into Michel numbers, for instance.

Any volunteers?

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by mobbor »

Josto

I think you've explained very well why it won't work. But here are some 1½d Die 1's. The variations show up better than I thought they would, but that doesn't mean what you see is what they really look like.

Image

scarlet - scarlet orange - deep orange- intense deep scarlet.

The deep orange illustrates yet another problem. Michael Drury had no hesitation in providing a certificate, but it has faded. After nearly 100 years, it's hardly surprising that not all stamps retain their original appearance.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by mobbor »

Doug2222USA

I don't use Gibbons or Scott so I'm afraid I can't help.In Australia we tend to just use the Aust. Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Hi Mobbor
In actual fact I think your image has worked very well.
What it has shown me is that despite the name deep orange, it's nothing like the 2d or 4d deep orange shades.
For someone who hasn't seen an example that's valuable information about what not to look for.
Ken

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by doug2222usa »

Mobbor, it will eventually come together, thanks for your reply. It's just a "thinking" exercise to derive the best product for my fellow collectors in the U.S., nothing of great import.

Here is one question my efforts have uncovered, but I stress tentatively, as I may have overlooked something. Scott has no equivalent for SG #49?

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by starling »

doug2222usa wrote:Mobbor, it will eventually come together, thanks for your reply. It's just a "thinking" exercise to derive the best product for my fellow collectors in the U.S., nothing of great import.

Here is one question my efforts have uncovered, but I stress tentatively, as I may have overlooked something. Scott has no equivalent for SG #49?
SG # 49 is the 1d red KGV with large multiple watermark in the carmine-pink shade (Cooke printing, KGV collectors would call it shade G101). It is probably a bit beyond the scope of Scott to go into that much specialisation. Anyone even half serious about collecting early Australia is not going to be using the Scott catalogue.

In my 2004 Scott Classic there is only a single entry for a penny red with large multiple watermark, and they call it rose just to confuse everyone. Looking at the entry for the penny red with single watermark it looks like a confusing mess.

It seems like they should be aiming at the general collector who just wants a 'penny red' rather than even attempting to mention a couple of extra shades which they tend to give arbitrary colour names.

They also make no mention of single-line perforated penny reds vs. comb perforated.


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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by The Pom »

Compared to the ½d Line Perf survey (which in itself is only a snapshot of known examples - there's loads more out there I'm sure), I think this would be 10x harder & 10x less successful for a variety of reasons.


1. Shades are subjective, two different experts may not even agree when presented with the stamp in the flesh.

2. As Josto says - scanners & screens make on-line opinions worthless.

3. Many of us have copies of stamps in shades which we think might be "interesting", but I can't see people rushing to certify them, especially in view of the above point.

4. Super-rare shades may have a tendency to be sitting in a private collection - no public exposure of their existence.

So I can see it being possible to census known certificated examples that come on the market, but adding verified examples to this data set would be hard to say the least.

From my collection. The one on the right is by far the darkest shade of these I've seen & it's darker to the eye than the scan suggests. Is it anything rare? Who knows?

Image
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Thanks for your post, "The Pom"

I think I've been approaching this issue from the wrong direction:

Josto said
"An example is the 1½d die 1 deep orange, which appeared for the first time in the latest edition of the specialist catalogue. As it happens, I have a copy (absolutely no point in scanning it, I tried): mine is the 10th known and it has exactly the same date as the only other known dated copy, BUT, comes from a different capital city."

So new question 1:
If the info in the newest ACSC KGV catalogue states there is a used block of six and a strip of three and Josto is stating his is the 10th copy, then where better than on this board should that information be available?

I've seen umpteen mentions that this is the pre-eminent board for sharing such information. Without this thread would we know now?

New question 2

If there are no publicly available images of such rare stamps, isn't the number of people who can further research them, limited to the very few who've handled them?

New question 3

Whilst there may be no intent from "The Pom" to rush out and expertise his unusual shade, wouldn't collectors who specialize in shades be tempted to do so?

Especially if, for example, a rare image posted here has a detectable date and post office which matches their unusual shade? Heck, even non-shade specialists might be tempted. I think this happened with the sideways watermark 2/6d "One Pound Jimmy" stamps.

Old question revisited
I asked
"But in principle did they mix up a bucket of ink to get the shade, do the print run until the ink ran out, and then mix up a new bucket
or
was each colour of ink in a separate reservoir, which the machine mixed during printing and potentially one reservoir ran dry before the others?"

What I was trying to establish was:
Is it known if such shades were happenstance printing "errors" or are they thought to be shades tested out due to ink scarcity?

In either case they were presumably released onto the market due to "waste not, want not" print shop frugality.

As an entirely different scenario I'm reminded that for many years the KGV 1d lilac rose (G14) was listed as a shade but eventually deleted as a colour changeling. Presumably many of them had expert certification.

New question 4
Have enough stamps been examined of any of the really rare shades to totally rule this out?

Ken

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by josto »

Just to correct this, it is Mobbor who owns one of the 10 known examples of the 1 1/2d die 1 deep orange. Surely I wish I had one, but I don't have!

Greetings

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by mobbor »

Satsuma

You don't ask much! :lol: Here are a few comments.

I think the 1d reds should be considered differently, because their printing was badly affected by the war: others less so or not at all. And also because they have been studied a great deal more.

Before the war red dies were imported from Germany. All stamp paper was also imported. From towards the end of 1917, we see a preponderance of unsuitable rough paper and constantly changing shades. The printers knew that many of the shades were not satisfactory, but they had little choice other than to issue them. In the case of the rarest shade of all, orange brown, they were all perforated O.S. (This practice applies also to some later rare shades in other denominations- & this does indicate 'waste not, want not'.)

The 1d shades were being studied seriously even in the 1920's, but it was not discovered til at least 50 years later that G13 & 14 were changelings of G11 or 12, when examples were deliberately exposed to sunlight. Before then, they were certainly accepted as genuine.

I don't think any of the rare shades in other denominations could possibly be changelings. They are at least usually very deep or very intense.

I agree with the Pom that the owners of rare shades are not likely to discuss them here & the answer to Q.2 is yes. The best chance to study them is when they come up for sale.

Finally, you really need to accept that digital images are unsatisfactory, when it comes to shades.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by satsuma »

Thanks for you input Mobbor. I know you are trying to be helpful.

I can be annoyingly persistent sometimes; some of my friends would say sometimes is an understatement; others might say just annoying is sufficient.

I'd like to have my final post on this matter.

The stamps I raised as initial examples were ACSC 110g (4d very deep buff orange) and ACSC 123f (5d intensely dark black brown). I was already aware both of these stamps were issued during the period of WW1.

I have not ever said in this thread that I expected scans viewed through monitors to be accurate, merely that they would be informative. In particular post office cancellations and date stamps if known would add to the general knowledge of these rare shades.

Consequently, a non-expert collector would perhaps be able to move a particular stamp in the collection, from "I wonder if this is one of that shade" status to "No, it's not likely" or to "This might be worth getting expertized".

I raised the issue of the ½d line perforated stamps particularly because many new issuing offices and dates were discovered and the overall quantity known dramatically increased after the census was started.

As far as I am aware no-one has attempted to divide the images posted into pale emerald or pale green shades on the thread. But, I'd be surprised if owners haven't attempted some such classification of their stamps given the number of images present.

If the classification "deep orange" in denomination "x" is not similar to deep orange in denomination "y" then surely I'm not alone in thinking that is a defect in the cataloging? A similar assertion could be made regarding stamps with differing perforations or watermarks listed with the same shade name.

Regarding color changelings, perhaps a conservator of rare documents could contribute a viewpoint. I understood that inks could also darken over time.

Geoff Kellow states that a significant proportion of the images in the eleven volumes of the ACSC came from the Arthur Gray collections. If he had been reluctant to have images of his stamps published then how much poorer would our collective knowledge have been?

I was discussing (by email) the ACSC 123f (5d intensely dark black brown with Scott Starling a few months ago and I can't imagine he'd be upset if I provided this quote:

"I have been trying to think of another stamp that has a colour that is close to the ‘intense brown’. Maybe the 1931 6d brown Kingsford Smith airmail stamp? But I am trying to go on my memory of the colour as I don’t have an example in my reference collection.

Also, I haven’t been able to locate an example on-line. There was one in a Status auction a few years back that just turned out to just be a deeper example of a cheaper shade. I’ll try and find it as it will at least give an idea of how deep still isn’t deep enough.


Unfortunately he hasn't yet been able to provide an example.

For some time the sheriff has been pushing for the ACSC to be published in colour. I presume he would want shades to published, and not merely the varieties in colour.

There is still the question of colour accuracy in printing but getting it right is more a matter of effort than possibility. I am aware it isn't a small ask since by my count there are 354 separate shades listed.

Until such a publication happens, what alternative is there but scanned images.

Not a lot of research can take place if sales of rare stamp shades happen only once every ten years or so.

Some observations on the marketplace.

1) The greater the numbers of a particular stamp in the market the lower the value. It benefits the owners of rare stamps that few more are found.

2) If the knowledge to identify a rare stamp isn't commonly available it benefits a proportion of dealers that it stays that way.

3) On the other hand if collectors can make an informed decision about whether to have a stamp expertized, the expert will benefit and so may the collector.

4) If a collector unknowingly offers a rare stamp shade for a common shade asking price on-line, who benefits?

5) If a collector unknowingly offers a common stamp shade as a rare shade asking price on-line and it sells, who jumps up and down labeling the buyer as a bunny and the seller as a fraudster?

I will not contribute to this thread again unless asked a question about it but I would be interested to view the sheriff's and more opinions on this matter.

Ken
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by woodster »

Kainnikanada wrote:
Allanswood wrote:Has someone hit the egg nog a bit to hard in a Canadian heatwave?

The terse post was yours. :shock:

I find the KGV experts thread is basically a "what plate position is this stamp" thread and many other and varied questions get buried or ignored. I know that I've asked some only to have them disappear in a flurry of plate flaw questions.

Makes it rather difficult to isolate a particular type of question when some assume that every question ever raised must go into that thread.

Doesn't the title of that thread encompass all research? I don't see "flaws only" as part of it.

I believe it's self evident most Stampboards members do not use the search button at the bottom of the page so the less divergent posts we have the better this site is. The innumerable posts in the wiki will attest to this.

Or would you prefer to read the same questions posed ad inifitum?
The topic raised here by Satsuma is worthy of an independent discussion and I too as a keen collector of Aus KGV welcome an analysis of rare shade numbers etc...

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by mobbor »

I agree that questions other than about plate flaws tend to get lost in the main KGV thread. (Although often if no answer is provided it is because no-one has an answer.)

As long as the practical difficulties are appreciated, I don't see why this thread can't be utilised for it's specific, stated, purpose.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by mobbor »

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I'll try and post some comments about 'rare' shades over time. Here's a start with the ½d. But I need to emphasise that I'm far from an expert. I hope Starling will correct my errors over time. Values are from the Aust. Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue (BW).

BW 63H, ½d single watermark, very yellow ('cyprus') green.
MUH $100, M $60 U $150. This interesting because, surely, this very distinctive shade (although it needs to be distinguished from yellow-green) was recognised at the time and bought up big from P.O.s.

BW 64A,B. This is a rare stamp (even if BW has underestimated the total still extant) and there is no significant difference between the 2 shades, except that, if you find a mint pale green copy (never mind MUH), it will be the first. The value for pale emerald mint is given at $20,000. The prices for used:- pale emerald, $900, and pale green $1000, are surely unrealistic. You'd be lucky to get half.

I don't think there's anything else in the ½ds.

Perhaps another general comment is justified to do with rare shades combined with listed plate flaws, inverted watermark, etc. Obviously you'd expect a premium. Inexplicably, BW dropped the table differentiating between the shades in this regard in the 4d, so the only available guidance is in the 1d reds.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by starling »

I don't want satsuma to be too disheartened with the responses on this thread. It is a very worthwhile thread, even if we just end up with mostly word-pictures of shades.

As has been said, faithful reproduction of rare shades on a computer screen or in printed form is a Holy Grail that technology hasn't been able to meet yet.

I had a stab at the penny reds here a few years ago and here is my long-neglected thread:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=36568

On my screen I'd have to say immodestly that the reproduction is quite good. Maybe not to level that you can hold a stamp next to a picture and get a positive ID.

But, at least for me, identifying shades comes through looking at the colour as a whole and then trying to isolate out blue or yellow or brown or whatever secondary strains.

So having an idea of a shade's general 'feel' is useful, but maybe a bit esoteric.

There a whole section on plums just for satsuma :wink:


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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Allanswood »

Image


Cyprus Green is the top right (or the one beside it!) I have no other mint shade in my collection to compare it to. It stands out on its own amongst the pack.

In my hand all 8 are different, one seems a very filled in but somehow dry ink variation.


With rare variations, we can easily see watermarks, perfs, dies and plate flaws - but you can't readily distinguish a slight shade variation. For me a rare colour variation should stand out like a sore thumb when compared to others of the same issue. That's usually why its rare and not just 5% different to all the others.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by starling »

Allanswood, that is a very nice scan and gives a good feel for the spread of shades in the ½d greens. I'd have to say that the Cyprus green looks pretty good.

Here are two I've sold on Ebay:

ImageImage


I always tell people that the shade isn't as yellow as they might think. Leave one of the other ½d green shades in the sun and you'll get something that is very yellow and not very green. People see these and the description 'very yellow green' and assume they've found one. It should still be a green stamp, but have a distinct yellow element, but no one that overwhelms the green.


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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Allanswood »

I was going to suggest that there seems to be a regular perforation difference in the Cyprus greens - not in perf count but that they used larger pins causing pointed perfs - but your last one shows normal sized pins.

Many that I find online seem to have the pointed pin effect.


I have a similar problem (shades), with the Pink 1d KGV - I only have the one and it's absolutely Pink. And yet it's not especially rare, but I have only ever come across the single one that I have and it's perf OS.

My guess is than anyone seeing a pink 1d will hang onto it, perhaps mistakenly thinking it's Salmon Eosin (without bothering to read that you need to the UV test).
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Allanswood »

Just back to the original question about the 5d "Intensely Dark (Black) Brown".

The ACSC mentions that the shade won't be confused with other dark shades as there is nothing else near it. The auction mentioned that none had been on the market for 30 years! So finding one really is quite rare and long before computers and scanners helped.

However mention was made of some having dark, and quite dark examples of the Chestnut colour. While they do stand out from the crowd, the ACSC does say in the shade descriptions that each colour has a variety from light to dark for each Chestnut tone. So within the normal examples there is quite a range of lighter/darker stamps without any being the IDB shade.


With the "how did it happen?" question, here is a theory based on experience with printing;

Printers would have had standard factory colours of ink to use in cans "off the shelf" as it were. Many of these colours we already know; "Vermillion", "Crimson" etc as that was the ink makers standard recipe for certain colours.

Some mixed colours may have been factory produced, perhaps a basic Green (Yellow/Blue) for example. But I would have though no, you would mix those colours yourself in the printery as colour was not often used in vast quantities by the average printer. They would stock the standard inks in bulk such as Red, Blue, Black, Yellow and mixed what they required from the bulk. It would not take long to have your chosen "colour" with your own recipe for say "Green" being 60% Blue and 40% Yellow. Variations can be a simple as using the wrong proportion and having 65% Blue and 35% Yellow etc.

If a printer at the start of the day, was prepping the press with ink, checking plate alignment, tension, roller pressure etc - he would (we did), check everything and print a couple of test sheets, which often became printers waste and tossed in the bin.

Experienced printers who knew their machines wouldn't cause much waste and could get down to printing very quickly.

Grabbing the wrong colour would rarely happen and be seen immediately (think of a 5d Red!), but grabbing what you thought was the brown ink for the 5d, printing a couple of sheets only to find its the wrong colour - too dark, too black - you would either go and get the ink used the last time, or read the instructions that said for the 5d you must use the black brown ink but add 20% yellow. So add the yellow, let the ink resovior mix it in and print again.

The "save a penny" master printer would look at the sheets, note that "well yes their too dark, but good enough to use, maybe as perf OS" and those few sheets would be used anyway as they printed OK.

I can also imagine at the end of the work day that an ink is running out with just a few sheets or 1hr of printing to go and rather than open a new can of ink, you grab a bit of other red (crimson, vermilion etc) or yellow (for the greens/browns) and add just a few ml's to the mix to finish off the print run.

There was a whole science to the making of older inks, some made their own inks, some had no choice but to have more than one supplier who had their own recipe for the same red, which just happens to be different enough that we can pick the difference. Even the same ink maker 6 months apart and with a different batch could produce a different ink using different mineral elements that today can be determined by a UV light but look almost exactly the same under normal light.

Food for thought. :D
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Allanswood »

Image



I'm going to have to buy a proper UV light one of these days.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by search4d »

Hi, Search4d hopefully helping this issue.

I have posted this image previously on stamp boards. The image shows the stamps of the Buff Orange shade range from pale to deep. The stamp on the lower right is the very deep buff orange.

The shades on screen differ greatly to natural light, but an assessment could be made of the difference between them.

Image

I hope this helps.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV Shades

Post by Global Administrator »

search4d wrote:
Image
I hope this helps.

What a horrible murky, muddy, scan. Signing up for the free google PICASA would help a lot. :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

Image

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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:
I'm not sure whether uploading these images to stampboards through photobucket would infringe any copyright laws, could moderators please advise?
Well seeing both Eastick and Phoenix are active members here - NO

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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by mobbor »

1½d Die 1.

Nothing really in the black-browns. One dealer lists an intense shade, but I've never seen any other reference to it. For some reason the, not rare, original single watermark shade reddish black has been omitted.

1½d large multiple 86E. this was listed in the 2007 edition as bright red brown priced at $750 used, unknown mint. It is the same colour as BW 87 and probably the result of the use of a small quantity of L.M.W. paper in error.

In the 2014 edition it has been replaced (see below) and reduced to a footnote in BW87, which refers to a footnote in BW86- which is about something else entirely.

The new 86E intense deep chocolate, unpriced mint, $250 used. I don't know that I've ever seen one.

BW87 single watermark, A Red-brown (pale to deep), B deep red-brown. Not rare (except for the watermark error above), but price has more than doubled to MUH $120 and $100. Also priced at $350 used for perf. O.S., but good luck proving it's not a fake.

I've never tried to distinguish between A and B, but in general, it's not hard to distinguish BW87 from russet-brown, the only other shade in electros 11 and 12, and it is the only brown shade in e.13 & 14, so go via plate flaws.

BW88D intense deep green, MUH $350, M $200, U $100. This is also new. I don't know how it relates to a dark green listed, but not considered rare, in the previous edition.

BW89I Pale pink, MUH $400, M $200, U $75. This is a startling colour, one that I've only seen on cover on the Phoenix auction site.

BW89J Scarlet-orange, MUH $750, M $500, U $200.
BW89K deep orange. 10 used copies known, price $500.
I discussed & provided scans for these previously.

Nothing on the no watermarks.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by mobbor »

Another general comment while I think of it. The rarest shades are probably single shades, but most are shade groups with considerable variation, which can be frustrating. An example:- trying to assist a member with basic 1½d shading. One stamp in particular; put it next to a rose-red, it looks red; put it next to a red, it looks rose-red.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by mobbor »

Some more 1½d shades.

Image

This is my deepest chocolate, but i don't think it qualifies as intense.

Image

88D intense deep green. The scan doesn't really do it justice.

Image

87 Bright red-brown. Maybe the last one is deep red-brown. No, none of them are large multiple watermark.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by satsuma »

Hello again,

There seems to be a lot more of the kind of response I initially hoped for so I'd now like to contribute again.

This image was originally a 4d lime-yellow Glen posted on his rarity page.

Using photoshop to make and combine layers only (no colour altering) I've added in the back ground a range of pantone colour strips, and in the foreground adobe's own colour sampling tool result.

Image

The sample was taken from the area between the kangaroo's head and the first A of Australia.

My theory is that even though monitor and scanners will handle colour differently a collector could scan his own putative 4d lime yellow and compare it to this scan and decide whether expertising it is worthwhile.

What do others think?

Ken
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