Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shades?

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Rod Perry »

josto wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
starling wrote:Alex,

I'd go with more of an over-inked, deep shade.

There are only around ten of the very rare 'intensely dark' shade and I don't own one, they usually go for around $10,000 on the rare occasions they come up for auction.

On the couple of occasions I have had potential examples sent to me for a certificate, I have been lucky enough to be able to show them to the members of the Australian Commonwealth Collectors' Club that do actually own examples.

None that have been sent to me have ever been the very rare 'intense' shade when compared with the real-deal.


Scott
The catalogued 5d "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, is an extreme case of overinking. There is no black in it: "Black" is there for effect, the same way as "Cyprus" was introduced (by me) in the above-mentioned ½d "Very yellow ("Cyprus") green" (ACSC 63H), to indicate in these two instances that the shade is something "special".

I found a mint example of the 5d (in a 1972 PJ Downie mixed lot - those were the days), and showed it to Stuart Hardy on one of his rare visits to Melbourne. He couldn't afford it, and I doubt there was one occasion on our many subsequent meetings that he did not express his regret at not having pulled out all stops to own that stamp.

I know who I sold it to; he may still have it. I note in the 2014 edition of ACSC that mint is not priced? I don't have access to earlier editions, but I'm sure I would have listed it when I owned the catalogue?

Actually, my observation of the 2014 edition (and to some extent Kangaroos 2013) is that a number of shade entries/deletions have to an extent been hijacked by one or two apparently well meaning contributors?

The "extreme" shades now listed, generally overinked "freaks", such as above-mentioned 4d "Very deep buff orange" (ACSC 110G), have been well known to specialists for decades, and have been excluded from catalogue recognition until now, for the very reason obvious from this thread: they are contentious!

More puzzling to me, is the deletion in 2014 of well-established and non-contentious shades, such as distinctive 1½d Reddish black-brown in Single wmk., and 1½d Salmon in Small Multiple wmk?

Rod

Hi!

I was able to aquire a nice collection of Australian KGV heads from a smaller auction house. The former owner seems to have tried to put together all different shades in mint hinged or even mint unhinged. There were some nice 5d single wmk comb. perf. in different shades and one really jumped out of the page being very dark and intense! As Rod mentioned he once found a mint example of the "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, I really wonder if this one could be such a rare example!? I`ve put it on a hagner sheet together with some shades which have been certified.

The upper left stamp is a KGV 5d single-line in "deep bright chestnut", 122B!
The upper middle stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "deep yellow brown", 123E!
The upper right stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "chestnut", 123A!
The lower left stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "deep bright chestnut", 123B!
The lower middle stamp is a KGV 5d comb. from the auction collection I aquired, which is even deeper and darker than the expertized "deep bright chestnut" on the left.
And the lower right stamp is the potential KGV 5d comb. "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", 123F, it is very deep and dark and strongly overinked, so that nearly all details of the stamp are coverd!

Image

Image

Any thoughts are welcome! Could it be a candidate for that rare shade worth being sent out for an expertize?

Thanks very much

josto
Not enough so-called "black" to qualify for the rare shade, although "rare" in its own right. The great rarity "black" is one of those once seen, never forgotten type items.
Here is a block of four in the same intense shade, presently for sale:

Image

Estimate: $10,000 Starting Price: $7,500

Lot 255: 5d Very Dark Chestnut Comb Perf block of 4, very fine with large part OG and mounted on upper units only. The colour of this block is somewhat lighter than the catalogued 'Intensely Dark Brown' (BW 123F), but is nevertheless a very rare (and uncatalogued) shade. With 2012 Ceremuga Certificate

https://millenniumauctions.com.au/search.php3?showcategory=AU ... _auction=0
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by josto »

Hi Rod,

Thank you very much for your infirmation! So even althoug it is not the rare 123F, it still seems to be an interesting example!

Best wishes

Josto

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by sermb1 »

As someone who has spent very little time on this topic, I would like to ask a couple of questions for clarification.

First, why are people so obsessed with scanners, when high quality photographs in ambient daylight appear to yield excellent images and results on the screen. Today's DSLR cameras have excellent colour reproduction.

Second, if you can get a good quality colour representation into the computer, why is so much effort put into "conjecture" around colours, rather than simply defining a set of RGB data, based on a clear part of the stamp, to define the colour groups. Photoshop allows you to define an area of pixels, and provided you choose an area with low StdDev, you can get a good RGB and luminance reading for any stamp. Much better, I think, than trying to rely on the human eye to correctly detect colour, especially between stamps with different strengths of cancel.

Happy to hear if there are any reasons why these two elements can't be combined to produce definitive graphs, for each issue, of RGB variation, with the colour groupings superimposed on the graphs. In some cases where Red, Green and Blue are all involved in the colour of the stamp, you would need at least 2 graphs, or a 3D graph, but I suspect this might be an interesting route to follow. It is also a good way to identify "changelings" as the RGB combination will be an outlier to "normal" colour combinations (as the light sensitive colour will likely be reduced well outside its normal range). Using a DSLR will also permit low light photography, for those issues such as the 1d red, where UV plays an important part in the classification.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by iaincraven »

First, why are people so obsessed with scanners, when high quality photographs in ambient daylight appear to yield excellent images and results on the screen. Today's DSLR cameras have excellent colour reproduction.
Using a DSLR in daylight will give you "good images", but the images would be unsuitable for accurate colour purposes. The camera may have excellent colour reproduction, but the natural light will be constantly changing.

A flatbed scanner is controlled lighting environment - so if you scan something one day then scan it again the next day you'll get the "same image" (with caveats including assuming the scanner remains in calibration). While I guess you could setup a controlled artificial lighting environment for a DSLR camera and then calibrate the output against an ANSI standard colour chart I think it would be very difficult. And your camera is going to be fixed in position so am not sure what you would gain going that route. Also many stamps (particularly mint blocks) wont sit flat for photographing without being placed into something introducing more complications.
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by search4d »

The Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club - ACCC has in recent years run a KGV workshop at the larger Philatelic Exhibitions, where there has been on display a full set of the shades. This includes the 5d Black Brown, the 1/4d very Deep Turquoise etc. I think the next time these will be on display will be early November Brisbane.

One option is to bring your example to one of these workshops and calibrate it against this full set.

Search4d

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by josto »

Hi!

I maybe found a candidate for the KGV 5d single line "dark chestnut" ACSC 122C.

It is much deeper and darker than all other KGV 5d single lines I have seen so far (in natural it looks even darker than on the scan.

The first scan shows it in the middle of a hagner page with many other single line examples.

Image

The second scan shows it against some single line examples which have been expertized by Scott Starling (upper left stamp is a deep example of 122A, upper middle stamp is an example of the deep bright chestnut 122B, the upper right stamp is a deep example of 122A, the lower left stamp is a pale example of 122A and the lower right stamp is the potential "dark chestnut" 122C).

Image

And the last scan shows the stamp alone.

Image

Greetings

josto

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by mobbor »

I can't help in regard to the shade, but it is plateable as 1L24.
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by josto »

Hi Mobbor,

thanks very much for your plating info. I also thought about 1L24 as the stamp had this shaved lower right corner, but as I don't have the reference book for the KGV 5d and I only have the ACSC, I wasn't sure. Is that small notch in the outer frame above the Emus tail a constant secondary flaw?

About the shade, I know that it is impossible to judge only from the scan, but I hope it is a solid contender for a dark chestnut example.

Greetings

Josto

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Global Administrator »

alex_c_y1977 wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
starling wrote: Trent also mentions an important point with these rare shades, they should be almost instantly recognisable as something special, even without a reference copy to compare them with. For most of the rare shades that is true thankfully.
The late Simon Dunkerley, a fan of "extreme" shades, and I shared a rule of thumb for detection of these abnormal variants:

If it leaps off the page and bites you, you will know you have something out of the ordinary.

Rod
Hi Rod

I am sure this one will qualified as something that "leaps off the page and bites you" :D

1/4d small multiple watermark perf 14 - no cert (yet) but I don't think I need a cert here to say there is something special about it.
Image
Cheers
Alex
These below were Arthur Gray's Small Multi perf 14 mint, scans untouched, and taken direct off mossgreen website. The alleged "Deep Turquoise" at right, had a Drury Cert as such - I looked at it in person there, and it did not leap off the page to me at all, I must confess.

I remained most unconvinced. Bits of paper mesmerise many collectors. All the 4d "Lime" Mint Blocks with same bit of paper, the auction house refused to believe, and carefully described them all as 4d Lemons, despite the clear Certs. MASSIVE difference in price. :idea:

Someone clearly did not agree with me on the 1/4d, and it was invoiced to the buyer for $A3,350 - way above estimate. :roll:
Image
On Mint copes of ANY deep shade, they will be darker than used examples, which needed to have been soaked in water at some point of course.

This one below DID "leap off the page" to me as Deep Turquoise, and totally different to the other dozen shaded copies on the page. It was marked as such 90 years ago, soon after issue, in a wonderful old collection, and has never been on the market since. Listed it for $A995 and it will sell fast. (Stock 482LA)

ACSC 129c, $2,750. Neat dated MACKAY 1928 Queensland cds. I've never bothered seeking a Certificate for any stamp shade, at any time, in 40 years, as if not self-evident to me in normal daylight, I do not bother calling it that. Lemon is Lemon, and Deep Violet is Deep Violet etc. No Voodoo Science or guesswork needed. :lol:
Image
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by mobbor »

josto wrote:Hi Mobbor,

thanks very much for your plating info. I also thought about 1L24 as the stamp had this shaved lower right corner, but as I don't have the reference book for the KGV 5d and I only have the ACSC, I wasn't sure. Is that small notch in the outer frame above the Emus tail a constant secondary flaw?

About the shade, I know that it is impossible to judge only from the scan, but I hope it is a solid contender for a dark chestnut example.

Greetings

Josto
Yes. Also there's a minute notch on the left frame at the top corner.
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

Hello.

Getting back to this thread after a lengthy interim

The following is an extract from Davidson and Dix regarding the 4d KGV:

The printings in olive on single watermark paper by Harrison vary in shade from the early greenish olive, through olive, to pale olive. they can easily be distinguished from the Mullett shades on single watermark paper, which are brown olive. There are two unusual shades on single watermark paper: bright orange brown (1928), presumably a Mullett printing, and bright yellow green.

The printings on small multiple watermark paper show only relatively slight variations from greenish olive to pale olive. In 1931 there was an outstanding shade – a much brighter green than normal.


Does anyone have scans of these shades, preferably with a "normal" for comparison? Are the comments above reliant on a single known copy?

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by wolseley16/60 »

Bright orange brown [olive] is certainly an unusual sounding shade, are you sure this is the correct term ? If so it would be very intriguing...must go thorough mine tomorrow.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

wolseley16/60 wrote:Bright orange brown [olive] is certainly an unusual sounding shade, are you sure this is the correct term ? If so it would be very intriguing...must go thorough mine tomorrow.
It's a quote from a standard reference; I have no idea how accurate it is, but until I see an image ( or a real example) I have no idea.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by wolseley16/60 »

That's OK, it's just doing my head in a wee bit, I'll have to get off my arse & learn how to use the scanner as I have about 50000 Oz KGV's to go through & lot's of questions to ask......

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by josto »

josto wrote:
16 Mar 2018 04:33
Rod Perry wrote:
starling wrote:Alex,

I'd go with more of an over-inked, deep shade.

There are only around ten of the very rare 'intensely dark' shade and I don't own one, they usually go for around $10,000 on the rare occasions they come up for auction.

On the couple of occasions I have had potential examples sent to me for a certificate, I have been lucky enough to be able to show them to the members of the Australian Commonwealth Collectors' Club that do actually own examples.

None that have been sent to me have ever been the very rare 'intense' shade when compared with the real-deal.


Scott
The catalogued 5d "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, is an extreme case of overinking. There is no black in it: "Black" is there for effect, the same way as "Cyprus" was introduced (by me) in the above-mentioned ½d "Very yellow ("Cyprus") green" (ACSC 63H), to indicate in these two instances that the shade is something "special".

I found a mint example of the 5d (in a 1972 PJ Downie mixed lot - those were the days), and showed it to Stuart Hardy on one of his rare visits to Melbourne. He couldn't afford it, and I doubt there was one occasion on our many subsequent meetings that he did not express his regret at not having pulled out all stops to own that stamp.

I know who I sold it to; he may still have it. I note in the 2014 edition of ACSC that mint is not priced? I don't have access to earlier editions, but I'm sure I would have listed it when I owned the catalogue?

Actually, my observation of the 2014 edition (and to some extent Kangaroos 2013) is that a number of shade entries/deletions have to an extent been hijacked by one or two apparently well meaning contributors?

The "extreme" shades now listed, generally overinked "freaks", such as above-mentioned 4d "Very deep buff orange" (ACSC 110G), have been well known to specialists for decades, and have been excluded from catalogue recognition until now, for the very reason obvious from this thread: they are contentious!

More puzzling to me, is the deletion in 2014 of well-established and non-contentious shades, such as distinctive 1½d Reddish black-brown in Single wmk., and 1½d Salmon in Small Multiple wmk?

Rod

Hi!

I was able to acquire a nice collection of Australian KGV heads from a smaller auction house. The former owner seems to have tried to put together all different shades in mint hinged or even mint unhinged. There were some nice 5d single wmk comb. perf. in different shades and one really jumped out of the page being very dark and intense!

As Rod mentioned he once found a mint example of the "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, I really wonder if this one could be such a rare example!? I`ve put it on a hagner sheet together with some shades which have been certified.

The upper left stamp is a KGV 5d single-line in "deep bright chestnut", 122B!
The upper middle stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "deep yellow brown", 123E!
The upper right stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "chestnut", 123A!
The lower left stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "deep bright chestnut", 123B!
The lower middle stamp is a KGV 5d comb. from the auction collection I acquired, which is even deeper and darker than the expertized "deep bright chestnut" on the left.
And the lower right stamp is the potential KGV 5d comb. "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", 123F, it is very deep and dark and strongly overinked, so that nearly all details of the stamp are covered!

Image

Image


Any thoughts are welcome! Could it be a candidate for that rare shade worth being sent out for an expertize?

Thanks very much

josto
Hi!

As Allanswood has shown a link to pictures from the Chapman collection in a separate thread, I went through the pictures with only a huge WOW! On page 505, when using the link, there is a display of KGV 5d chestnut single wmk comb. perf. issues and there is one stamp marked "black brown", I think it will be ACSC 123F "Intensely dark (black) brown"!?

ACSC states, that it is only known used, but the stamp in the Chapman collection is a mint example, so shouldn`t it be listed in mint as well!? And as late Rod Perry had told in this thread, there is NO black in the shade, it just means, that it is a very deep dark brown (chestnut), more like overinking!?

Although the scans of the Chapman collection are quite small, I still think, that my mint example posted here, looks very similar to the one shown on page 505! Does anyone have other pictures of the rare 123F!?
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Chapman KGV 5d.JPG
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shades?

Post by satsuma »

5d 475.jpg
Just for comparative purposes The single stamp is 127(OS)D -that is the deep brown shade.

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