Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shades?

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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by iaincraven »

I've posted this before on the "Scanning doesn't show color right?" thread https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=61366, but colour calibrating your scans with an IT8 colour target is a very useful step.

Image

Up until fairly recently I relied on having bought a number of identical scanners for the same batch to get colour consistency on different PCs, but looking back that was not a good idea and I should have got proper calibration sorted out years ago!

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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by mobbor »

Iancraven

I don't know whether we want to go down this path, but I wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. You didn't explain on the other thread either.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by Micky »

I might throw in some different shades as well :D

1d red Large Multi watermark (one day I will have a certificate on these)

Image

Some 1½d shades, 5 Die1 and a Die11, single watermark.

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Image

There is a huge difference in all 6 1½d and I can't tell on my pc as normal :? Oh well.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by Allanswood »

Micky, I can quite easily see the great differences in your 6 examples. But I have nothing to compare them to so have no idea what shades they are.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by Micky »

Allanswood wrote:Micky, I can quite easily see the great differences in your 6 examples. But I have nothing to compare them to so have no idea what shades they are.
Definitely my pc :lol: Thanks Allanswood, I now know I am in need of a new computer.

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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by Allanswood »

Or a better monitor? Mine is a new Phillips backlit 28" HD (once I get a better graphic driver). I think the backlight helps tremendously.
I have calibrated in my stamp den to show stamps as close to vewing in natural light as I can get by looking at the stamp and the monitor and adjusting.
Did the same with the scanner.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:Hello again,

There seems to be a lot more of the kind of response I initially hoped for so I'd now like to contribute again.

This image was originally a 4d lime-yellow Glen posted on his rarity page.

Using photoshop to make and combine layers only (no colour altering) I've added in the back ground a range of pantone colour strips, and in the foreground adobe's own colour sampling tool result.

Image

The sample was taken from the area between the kangaroo's head and the first A of Australia.

My theory is that even though monitor and scanners will handle colour differently a collector could scan his own putative 4d lime yellow and compare it to this scan and decide whether expertising it is worthwhile.

What do others think?

Ken
As I noted when posting the Lime, it was colour adjusted a little, to show the shade better.

As we saw just a few posts back a member a bunch of 10 x 4d "Orange" shades to "assist" the argument, did no such thing really, as his scan was all dark and muddy and murky, and clearly looked nothing like the stamps he was scanning, as a quick tweak showed below it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

As the last 100 threads of this type have proven here, as we have 15,000 members with 5,00 different scanners, and 5,00 different editing platforms, and 500 different computer monitors, we will NEVER get consistency.
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search4d wrote:
Image
I hope this helps.

What a horrible murky, muddy, scan. Signing up for the free google PICASA would help a lot. :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

Image

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:
One of my interests is the quantities extant of rare shades of KGV sidefaces.
Very hard to track really.

The 1d Salmon Eosin is a relatively common shade as all astute observers will all know, and well over 1000 are recorded and logged I am sure. The data has been kept secret sadly, but the number recorded is large.

For many many decades this weird fairytale existed, that only a few sheets were printed in Eosin, and cancels from only a few towns were known. Now copies cancelled from a vast array of cities and states are recorded and verified.

In WW1 the stamp printer was producing a MILLION 1d Reds a day. Due to Wartime ink shortages (as much printer traditionally came from our "enemies") any ink looking remotely like Red (or 'Orange' for 4d, see above) was secured by printer, and pressed into use.

Correct common sense value of Eosins on that basis is a few $100 tops, and for some weird reason no-one can explain, they fetch 10 or more times higher than that, routinely.

Not listed in SG or Scott or Michel, hence near zero interest on the wider scale globally. THAT is where high prices are obtained.

When one vast holding of 1d Eosins comes onto the market, and they will, the few $100 level will seem WAY too much! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by satsuma »

Well Glen, I asked for your input and you gave it and thanks for it.

Perhaps you could also advise, whether in your opinion an ACSC catalogue for KGV printed in colour, should include a colour shade guide or merely colour illustrations?

I also wonder whether you are able to advise ballpark quantities extant of other rare shades? If collectors who can't get to auctions regularly were aware whether there are 20, or 100 or 1,000 known copies it would be most helpful.

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Global Administrator »

Ken, the ACSC can't be bothered printed anything in colour, much less an accurate colour chart!

Most shade ID's of used KGV stamps is a very rough guess at BEST.

100+ years of sun, humidity and washing and bleaching and cleaning has made most of them wild guesses, especially on 1d Reds. I smile when I see some of the total Froot Loop prices paid for some things.

It is a free country, so hey, easy come, VERY easy go. :lol:

So as for how many of any shades exist - :mrgreen:
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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by satsuma »

Ah yes, but....

Is that a salmom eosin or carmine pink piece of string?

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Allanswood »

The ACSC does list and update records, where they can of how many of a rare shade are known.
But as quantities seem to be a fluid figure and some collectors may have tucked away knowingly or unknowingly rare shades you can only surmise what may have originally be available.

If there is one, then there should be at least a sheet of 120/240

If there are 2 but from geographic locations reasonably far apart then there were 2 sheets at least.

Even after 100 years, collectors are finding a "first known" for these stamps which rewrites the books all over again.

I would fully understand that some collectors would choose not to reveal if they do have a rare stamp as it might expose them to robbery.
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Re: Rare Australian KGV stamp shades

Post by GUTTERS »

satsuma wrote:
My theory is that even though monitor and scanners will handle colour differently a collector could scan his own putative 4d lime yellow and compare it to this scan and decide whether expertising it is worthwhile.

What do others think?

Ken
ImageImageImage

The same stamp three different scanner settings. (Brightness)

So if your scanner is set to a position were it is a bit brighter than mine and not as bright on another you will not get a match, anyone can match your lemon if they played with there software enough.

I think Allanswood has the right idea scan a group and post here.

By posting a group together like he has you will not get a positive ID but the range will be there that will help others.

Who know some one may post one that is one of those rare one.

Ken don't be put of by some of us saying this won't work, you need to do this and do that, the idea is a good one one we just need to work out a way to implement it.
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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by iaincraven »

I don't know whether we want to go down this path, but I wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. You didn't explain on the other thread either.
I think colour calibrating scans is the best (only?) approach for what you are trying to do.

As I said, I'd previously tried to simply standardise my own scans, which worked for my purpose at the time but that wasn't the best approach. This thread probably isn't the best place to explain the IT8 target use / calibration in detail.

I can start a separate thread which explains it better, although this has been discussed in quite a lot of detail on here before. The posts by ghopper02 towards the bottom of the first page give a pretty good explanation -

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=678.

The thread is discussing an attempt to do far more than on-screen visual comparison, but has useful info on starting with calibrated scans.

The drawback with this is that you do need to buy a physical IT8 target and you need to understand a bit about the scanner setting options - ghopper02 is discussing scanners with the IT8 process built in, but I calibrated all my Canon LiDEs using a target, free software and the standard Canon scanner driver.

There is a pretty dry/unhelpful Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IT8.

I'll try and spend a bit of time writing a proper step-by-step explanation with more detail later today.
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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by mobbor »

1½d Die 2.

Two rare shades, both perf. 13½x12½ Ash printings.

92J Deep golden scarlet, MUH $900, M $700, U -. Note 2 says a sheet purchased at Perth G.P.O. came on the market in 1969. Previously, only perf. O.S. were recorded in this highly distinctive shade.

92K Intense Golden Scarlet (OS) only, MUH -, M $750, U -. Here's an example:-

Image

The scan certainly does it justice, on my monitor anyway. I can add that the Lance Skinner collection has a page of these, maybe 20, some in blocks, so it certainly exists MUH.
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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

Good morning all

I would like to share the following stamp and see what everyone think.

As many have said before, showing shade on scan is difficult.

But referring to the 5d stamp on the left - with the deepest shade I have ever seen on a 5d - is it the depth of the shade or over-ink? Not sure, nonetheless it is unusual.

I don't think it is the rare black brown shade (i can't see any black in the colour apart from the untidy postmark!)

Image

Image

Cheers
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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by starling »

Alex,

I'd go with more of an over-inked, deep shade.

There are only around ten of the very rare 'intensely dark' shade and I don't own one, they usually go for around $10,000 on the rare occasions they come up for auction.

On the couple of occasions I have had potential examples sent to me for a certificate, I have been lucky enough to be able to show them to the members of the Australian Commonwealth Collectors' Club that do actually own examples.

None that have been sent to me have ever been the very rare 'intense' shade when compared with the real-deal.


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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by GlenStephens »

Even Arthur Gray did not own the very deep shade!

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Rod Perry »

starling wrote:Alex,

I'd go with more of an over-inked, deep shade.

There are only around ten of the very rare 'intensely dark' shade and I don't own one, they usually go for around $10,000 on the rare occasions they come up for auction.

On the couple of occasions I have had potential examples sent to me for a certificate, I have been lucky enough to be able to show them to the members of the Australian Commonwealth Collectors' Club that do actually own examples.

None that have been sent to me have ever been the very rare 'intense' shade when compared with the real-deal.


Scott
The catalogued 5d "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, is an extreme case of overinking. There is no black in it: "Black" is there for effect, the same way as "Cyprus" was introduced (by me) in the above-mentioned ½d "Very yellow ("Cyprus") green" (ACSC 63H), to indicate in these two instances that the shade is something "special".

I found a mint example of the 5d (in a 1972 PJ Downie mixed lot - those were the days), and showed it to Stuart Hardy on one of his rare visits to Melbourne. He couldn't afford it, and I doubt there was one occasion on our many subsequent meetings that he did not express his regret at not having pulled out all stops to own that stamp.

I know who I sold it to; he may still have it. I note in the 2014 edition of ACSC that mint is not priced? I don't have access to earlier editions, but I'm sure I would have listed it when I owned the catalogue?

Actually, my observation of the 2014 edition (and to some extent Kangaroos 2013) is that a number of shade entries/deletions have to an extent been hijacked by one or two apparently well meaning contributors?

The "extreme" shades now listed, generally overinked "freaks", such as above-mentioned 4d "Very deep buff orange" (ACSC 110G), have been well known to specialists for decades, and have been excluded from catalogue recognition until now, for the very reason obvious from this thread: they are contentious!

More puzzling to me, is the deletion in 2014 of well-established and non-contentious shades, such as distinctive 1½d Reddish black-brown in Single wmk., and 1½d Salmon in Small Multiple wmk?

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Rod Perry »

alex_c_y1977 wrote:Good morning all

I would like to share the following stamp and see what everyone think.

As many have said before, showing shade on scan is difficult.

But referring to the 5d stamp on the left - with the deepest shade I have ever seen on a 5d - is it the depth of the shade or over-ink? Not sure, nonetheless it is unusual.

I don't think it is the rare black brown shade (i can't see any black in the colour apart from the untidy postmark!)

Image

Image

Cheers
Alex
Would be interesting if one of our tech experts can superimpose a matching uncancelled portion of Hardy stamp with yours, Alex?

From where I sit, I believe you have a solid contender for the catalogued "intense" shade.

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Rod Perry »

mobbor wrote:1½d Die 2.

Two rare shades, both perf. 13½x12½ Ash printings.

92J Deep golden scarlet, MUH $900, M $700, U -. Note 2 says a sheet purchased at Perth G.P.O. came on the market in 1969. Previously, only perf. O.S. were recorded in this highly distinctive shade.

92K Intense Golden Scarlet (OS) only, MUH -, M $750, U -. Here's an example:-

Image

The scan certainly does it justice, on my monitor anyway. I can add that the Lance Skinner collection has a page of these, maybe 20, some in blocks, so it certainly exists MUH.
Referring to my reference above to "hijacking" of certain shade listings, 92J/K are another example.

The "intense" shade, was once known only punctured "OS".

In 1969, recorded in ACSC, I bought a sheet of unpunctured "intense" shade, precisely the same as that formerly known only punctured.

The sheet originated at Perth GPO, where in 1920s/1930s the Postmistress had an eye for the unusual, and placed such aside. I bought that sheet, and a remarkable hoard of other "unusual" items from the same source, from descendants.

For some reason in 2014 edition, these identical shades have been afforded separate status.

We now have:

92J Deep golden scarlet (ex the sheet I acquired in 1969)

92K Intense golden scarlet (OS only)

These shades are identical, and were once acknowledged as such.

Can some well-meaning individuals, who clearly are Johnny-come-latelies, please not interfere with the facts!

Change for the sake of change, particularly when ill-informed, is not advancement.

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by jojo »

I agree, Rod, Johnny (B) has had far too much input into the last KGV and Roo ACSCs.

I'm hoping said input will now be history.

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by GlenStephens »

John Bozic is clueless in many areas.

If he had time to look at pricing that is one thing, but to let him anywhere near the shade and other listings was one of the previous owner's BIG blunders IMHO.

Let's hope both of them are history in at ACSC. :idea:

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by mobbor »

The deletion of reddish black is completely inexplicable.

Image

The printer called it 'broken black' and it was probably introduced because he could foresee a problem with seeing the postmarks.

It is not a rare shade, and was valued the same as black-brown, purple black and grey-black in the previous edition. It was not persevered with, not being found in large multiple watermark, perhaps because it wasn't very effective &/or red dies were still scarce after the war.
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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Rod Perry »

mobbor wrote:The deletion of reddish black is completely inexplicable.

Image

The printer called it 'broken black' and it was probably introduced because he could foresee a problem with seeing the postmarks.

It is not a rare shade, and was valued the same as black-brown, purple black and grey-black in the previous edition. It was not persevered with, not being found in large multiple watermark, perhaps because it wasn't very effective &/or red dies were still scarce after the war.
I repeat: "The deletion of reddish black is completely inexplicable."

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by jojo »

GlenStephens wrote:John Bozic is clueless in many areas.

If he had time to look at pricing that is one thing, but to let him anywhere near the shade and other listings was one of the previous owner's BIG blunders IMHO.

Let's hope both of them are history in at ACSC. :idea:
Thrilled to agree with you, at last ! :D

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by Rod Perry »

jojo wrote:
GlenStephens wrote:John Bozic is clueless in many areas.

If he had time to look at pricing that is one thing, but to let him anywhere near the shade and other listings was one of the previous owner's BIG blunders IMHO.

Let's hope both of them are history in at ACSC. :idea:
Thrilled to agree with you, at last ! :D
I've gone on the public record on more than one forum attempting to explain the exclusion of my great mate, Arthur Gray, from ACSC Pricing Sub committee, for most of the decade when I was proprietor (1992-2002).

The svelte charm of "The Guv'nor", I confess, I eventually succumbed to (suitably lubricated by copious quantity of some of Australia's finest grape juice).

In the wake, to my surprise and delight, it transpired Arthur was a well measured addition to the committee.

It is simple human nature: we all push our own barrow.

In my opinion, however, their are more barrows being pushed about at ACSC-central nowadays than at Royal Sydney Botanical Gardens.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

Getting back to the topic....

In the latest ACSC I note the 4d intense deep violet 111C is priced at $500 used; unpriced mint or on cover.
Given that the 4d lime yellow 110D is priced at $600 used, $1700 mh and unpriced on cover - is it fair to assume that 111C should be encountered more commonly? Or is there substantially less demand?

I'm aware that fraudulent OS perfs abound in Australian KGV issues generally, but in this case where the shade is unlisted without the OS puncture, it shouldn't be an issue.

Regardless of whether the catalogue values are a true reflection of comparative rarity, it's seems that finding an image of the intense deep violet stamp is much harder than finding one of the lime shade. I searched through the online prestige catalogues, the Stuart Hardy and Arthur Gray actual catalogues and google generally, but unsuccessfully.

Can any member post an image - preferably with the 111A or 111B as a comparison?

Do the archive records include how many of any given stamp were punctured OS? I ask because it seems there are records of how many were overprinted OS.

Ken

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Rod Perry »

satsuma wrote:Getting back to the topic....

In the latest ACSC I note the 4d intense deep violet 111C is priced at $500 used; unpriced mint or on cover.
Given that the 4d lime yellow 110D is priced at $600 used, $1700 mh and unpriced on cover - is it fair to assume that 111C should be encountered more commonly? Or is there substantially less demand?

Regardless of whether the catalogue values are a true reflection of comparative rarity, it's seems that finding an image of the intense deep violet stamp is much harder than finding one of the lime shade. I searched through the online prestige catalogues, the Stuart Hardy and Arthur Gray actual catalogues and google generally, but unsuccessfully.

Can any member post an image - preferably with the 111A or 111B as a comparison?

Do the archive records include how many of any given stamp were punctured OS? I ask because it seems there are records of how many were overprinted OS.
"Getting back to the topic...."

Ken, it is topical that some of the extreme shades, particularly those in ACSC Kangaroos (2013), and King George V (2014), should never have been afforded catalogue status.

For most, if not all of these "freak", over-inked anomalies, the new listings are based upon a single example (perhaps two) in one collection in particular.

The 4d intense violet shade you mention is a case in point.

Unless that collector wishes to educate others, and that may be deemed a conflict of interest, you will likely never see an example of certain now listed "shades".

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

My remarks about getting back to topic were intended to focus us on the stamps in question, rather than the character of the players involved. However, to continue:
For most, if not all of these "freak", over-inked anomalies, the new listings are based upon a single example (perhaps two) in one collection in particular.

The 4d intense violet shade you mention is a case in point.
Thanks for that info, Rod.
I note that the 4d intense violet shade also appeared in the 2007 edition when it was priced at $100 used.

It seems to me that there are a couple of issues here and I'd really like you to comment further, if you don't have any conflicts of interest in doing so.

---------------------

The first is perhaps an oxymoron but I'm going to use the the phrase "integrity in publishing". To expand on that my view is that if the ACSC can state as a best guess that there are only a small number known of, for example, the bright red brown 1½d LMW, or the intense deep turquoise 1s4d in single watermark; -- then it has an at least implied responsibility to state something along the lines of "only a couple of copies known" if a decision is taken to list other esoteric shades.

If you consider the situation of one who has newly committed to specialising in KGV heads, the first advice likely to be received from a member of stampboards is "Buy yourself an ACSC catalogue" with the implication that being an independent publication, it will not lead the collector astray.

---------------------

The second is the difficulty involved in acquiring information about rare shades on this thread so far. This is the 80th post to this thread and it would be a lot more helpful if someone in the know could post along the lines of "the following listings in the ACSC have less than twenty known copies and their inclusion in the catalogue is contentious and should be ephemeral." Such information could also be posted in the
Corrections to the 2014 KGV Brusden White ACSC
thread, so the editors are sure to receive the message.

---------------------

The third is that the 2014 edition did a major rewrite of the shade listings. In the 2007 catalogue there were by my count 392 shades listed: -- in 2014 there were only 354. As many of the shades were also renamed it's a little hard for the non-professional to be sure which are new "freaks" and which are old shades masquerading under a new name.
A concordance was provided when the 1d red shades were changed from the traditional listing format but not for the other values.

---------------------

I hope these remarks will be considered an attempt to improve our collective knowledge rather than merely a criticism of the current murky status quo.

Ken

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Rod Perry »

There are a number of changes which have occurred in ACSC editions since I passed the baton in 2002, Ken, which would not have occurred under my stewardship.

These include deletions, as you indicate for shade aggregate, as well as additions.

I did not collect Australian stamps during the decade I was proprietor, and had no vested interest in the subject, aside from being committed to publishing the best possible catalogue series of its kind.

What I did and still do have, however, is a vast experience in buying and selling Australian stamps.

I owe that to having seriously collected KGV in the 1970s (when I owned most of the famous items), and domination as a buyer at Harmers of Sydney during that decade.

Harmers handled virtually all of the major Australia collections in the postwar era, up until their closure in early 1980s. If I wasn't the buyer of a lot, from the late 1960s onwards, I learnt from the opportunity to actually see and handle the contents.

That accumulated knowledge and experience, and impartiality during my ACSC era, has not necessarily been maintained since 2002.

The catalogue has been improved in many ways, learned students have ensured that, but I repeat: changes have occurred which would not have flown in my time.

Mobbor has been contributing learned comments overviewing shades, and I will add to that for specific shades, when I believe I can be useful.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by josto »

Hi!

I don't have many really rare shades, the best I can provide is a nice 4d 110D lime-yellow with superb socked on the nose Seymour Military Camp postmark and a nice 1/4p 129C deep turquoise with Hepburn Springs postmark.

1st Scan:

upper left stamp: lime yellow; upper right stamp: lemon yellow inverted wmk; lower left stamp: lemon yellow with plate flaw; lower right stamp: mint lemon yellow

Image

2nd Scan:

Upper left stamp: 129C Deep turquoise; upper middle stamp: 129B deeper turquoise; upper right stamp: 128A greenish blue; lower left stamp: 128A turquoise blue; lower middle stamp: 128B greenish blue; lower right stamp: 128E greyish blue.

Image

The stamps have been expertized by Dr. Scott Starling. I hope that helps for comparison.

Greetings

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

Thanks for posting those images, Josto.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by woodster »

josto wrote:Hi!

I don't have many really rare shades, the best I can provide is a nice 4d 110D lime-yellow with superb socked on the nose Seymour Military Camp postmark and a nice 1/4p 129C deep turquoise with Hepburn Springs postmark.

1st Scan:

upper left stamp: lime yellow; upper right stamp: lemon yellow inverted wmk; lower left stamp: lemon yellow with plate flaw; lower right stamp: mint lemon yellow

Image

2nd Scan:

Upper left stamp: 129C Deep turquoise; upper middle stamp: 129B deeper turquoise; upper right stamp: 128A greenish blue; lower left stamp: 128A turquoise blue; lower middle stamp: 128B greenish blue; lower right stamp: 128E greyish blue.

Image

The stamps have been expertized by Dr. Scott Starling. I hope that helps for comparison.

Greetings
As an aside, I note the majority of Lemon yellows I come across are centred left as yours above are Josto.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Trent »

Here is the BW / ACSC 131C Deep Turquoise (has Drury certificate) in the centre. I've put a couple of normal CofA Turquoise either side of it to highlight the difference.

I think that this scan shows the colour difference well. If anything, the Deep Turquoise is even more striking in person - the colour is very rich and attractive.

This shade is very easy to pick as there isn't much shade variation in the 1/4 CofA like there is with the other papers. You'll know when you find one even if you haven't seen one before because they so distinctly different to the rest you won't miss it.

Image
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by mobbor »

Trent

Nice scan.

I wouldn't argue with that- and not ever with Michael Drury- but the entry in BW has an error, that was also in the 2007 edition, so can't be blamed on J.B. 'The intense shade No. 131F........'. There is no 131F: intensely deep turquoise is 131D.

Note 1, on p.4/360 does say the gum is yellowish to a degree. Is that right with your copy?

To quote you, "This shade is very easy to pick as there isn't much shade variation......", but, how does 131C compare with 131D?
mobbor

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Trent »

Yes it has the 'yellowish gum'

I don't see a 131F in the ACSC 2014.

I don't have the intensely deep shade to compare to the deep shade. When I said that this shade is easy to pick, I meant that the stock standard Turquoise shades on the CofA paper have little variation, unlike, say the single watermark paper where there is a wider range of shades.

Because the CofA Turquoise is usually a consistent shade, when you see the deep turquoise against it, it sticks out a mile.
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by starling »

Hopefully Woodster doesn't object to me posting a scan of a stamp I certified for him about 2½ years ago.


Image


It is ACSC # 128Cba - single watermark, 1/4 deep greenish blue, perf. OS. The un-punctured listing is $950 for mint, so I hope that is rare enough for this discussion.

I have seen several other examples of this shade, all mint with OS perfin and they all have the same bad centering to the top-left with evidence of over-inking. So that suggests a single sheet was found much like the 1½d intense golden scarlet mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that all 1/4 stamps with that centering are going to be the rare shade, but it is something to keep in mind.

Trent also mentions an important point with these rare shades, they should be almost instantly recognisable as something special, even without a reference copy to compare them with. For most of the rare shades that is true thankfully.


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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Rod Perry »

starling wrote: Trent also mentions an important point with these rare shades, they should be almost instantly recognisable as something special, even without a reference copy to compare them with. For most of the rare shades that is true thankfully.
The late Simon Dunkerley, a fan of "extreme" shades, and I shared a rule of thumb for detection of these abnormal variants:

If it leaps off the page and bites you, you will know you have something out of the ordinary.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by mobbor »

Trent wrote:Yes it has the 'yellowish gum'

I don't see a 131F in the ACSC 2014.

I don't have the intensely deep shade to compare to the deep shade. When I said that this shade is easy to pick, I meant that the stock standard Turquoise shades on the CofA paper have little variation, unlike, say the single watermark paper where there is a wider range of shades.

Because the CofA Turquoise is usually a consistent shade, when you see the deep turquoise against it, it sticks out a mile.
The entries in BW are identical in 2007 and 2014. In the list of shades, deep turquoise is 131C and intensely deep turquoise is 131D. But in Note 1 the intense shade is 131F. Is this just a typo, or were 3 other shades removed and intensely deep turquoise renumbered- except in the note?

I agree that your stamp cannot be confused with the more common shades, but it clearly needs to be compared with the other rare shade. (This bearing in mind that Rod said above that the equivalent in 1½d Die 2- deep golden scarlet and intense golden scarlet (perf O.S. only) were identical shades.)

I didn't really expect to get an answer. These stamps don't often see the light of day, which is why Satsuma is not getting many answers on this thread.
mobbor

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

Rod Perry wrote:
starling wrote: Trent also mentions an important point with these rare shades, they should be almost instantly recognisable as something special, even without a reference copy to compare them with. For most of the rare shades that is true thankfully.
The late Simon Dunkerley, a fan of "extreme" shades, and I shared a rule of thumb for detection of these abnormal variants:

If it leaps off the page and bites you, you will know you have something out of the ordinary.

Rod
Hi Rod
I am sure this one will qualified as something that "leaps off the page and bites you" :D

1/4d small multiple watermark perf 14 - no cert (yet) but I don't think I need a cert here to say there is something special about it.

Image

Cheers
Alex

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by GlenStephens »

Alex .. little doubt on THAT one. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by stampmad »

I have here a grouping of what I believe are mostly lemon yellows from a collection I am breaking down. Vendor actually had the bottom right stamp listed as a lime yellow shade but what stood out for me was the greenish tint of the middle stamp which does not seem as apparent on a scan as it does in the flesh.

I think he has mis-identified the lime yellow and it is the middle stamp which was just sitting amongst the rest without notation

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by starling »

The 4d orange shades do not scan very well at all, so I won't pass too much judgement on the shades from the picture.

However, some of the dates on the cancels would rule out lemon shades. There is one with a 1915 date - too early. Also another with a 1918 date, that is getting a bit late.

I'd have to say that the stamp at bottom right (which the previous owner had said was a lime) is about as un-limey as one can get. If I had to guess from the scan I'd say it was a buff-orange.


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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by Global Administrator »

stampmad - As Scott mentions, maybe tell him the dates the Lemon Group occur in, and advise him if any of them are Lemons, bending over all those SIX corners does not assist their value at all!!

None look remotely like Lemons to me from that scan. :lol:
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by stampmad »

Thanks Scott and Glen...I am finding a lot of mis-identified items in this lot and not looking forward to the 300 1d reds there are which he has classified by shade but probably mostly wrong. However some gems are appearing.
As it has been mentioned in previous posts...It is the scarce shades that usually just jump out at you and if you have to squint to find a variance then you have the more common variety
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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

Hello.

Getting back to this thread after a lengthy interim.
Here is a group of penny violet shades.

Image

Unfortunately, unlike the 4d orange shades, the ACSC gives no indication of any relationship between printing dates and shades, nor print run quantities.
If anyone can point me in the right direction to find that out, or better yet is able to provide it themselves, I would be grateful.

However, in the latest catalogue there are three shades which can be considered scarce, if not rare.

They are:
76G Deep Violet Aniline
76H Deep Purple
76I Deep Dull Purple

All are unpriced mint, and used are $300.00, $900.00, and $300.00 respectively.

I'd be interested to hear members opinions on the stamp on the bottom right.

Since I am discussing shades, I haven't provided high resolution scans but if anyone thinks them worthy of further investigation, I will do so.

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

Here's a better scan of four of the stamps:

Image

The bottom two stamps are the same as the two on the bottom right of the first scan. The top left stamp was the third from the left in the first scan. The top right stamp was the left stamp in the middle row.

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Re: Quantitites recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp sha

Post by josto »

Rod Perry wrote:
starling wrote:Alex,

I'd go with more of an over-inked, deep shade.

There are only around ten of the very rare 'intensely dark' shade and I don't own one, they usually go for around $10,000 on the rare occasions they come up for auction.

On the couple of occasions I have had potential examples sent to me for a certificate, I have been lucky enough to be able to show them to the members of the Australian Commonwealth Collectors' Club that do actually own examples.

None that have been sent to me have ever been the very rare 'intense' shade when compared with the real-deal.


Scott
The catalogued 5d "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, is an extreme case of overinking. There is no black in it: "Black" is there for effect, the same way as "Cyprus" was introduced (by me) in the above-mentioned ½d "Very yellow ("Cyprus") green" (ACSC 63H), to indicate in these two instances that the shade is something "special".

I found a mint example of the 5d (in a 1972 PJ Downie mixed lot - those were the days), and showed it to Stuart Hardy on one of his rare visits to Melbourne. He couldn't afford it, and I doubt there was one occasion on our many subsequent meetings that he did not express his regret at not having pulled out all stops to own that stamp.

I know who I sold it to; he may still have it. I note in the 2014 edition of ACSC that mint is not priced? I don't have access to earlier editions, but I'm sure I would have listed it when I owned the catalogue?

Actually, my observation of the 2014 edition (and to some extent Kangaroos 2013) is that a number of shade entries/deletions have to an extent been hijacked by one or two apparently well meaning contributors?

The "extreme" shades now listed, generally overinked "freaks", such as above-mentioned 4d "Very deep buff orange" (ACSC 110G), have been well known to specialists for decades, and have been excluded from catalogue recognition until now, for the very reason obvious from this thread: they are contentious!

More puzzling to me, is the deletion in 2014 of well-established and non-contentious shades, such as distinctive 1½d Reddish black-brown in Single wmk., and 1½d Salmon in Small Multiple wmk?

Rod

Hi!

I was able to aquire a nice collection of Australian KGV heads from a smaller auction house. The former owner seems to have tried to put together all different shades in mint hinged or even mint unhinged. There were some nice 5d single wmk comb. perf. in different shades and one really jumped out of the page being very dark and intense! As Rod mentioned he once found a mint example of the "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", ACSC 123F, I really wonder if this one could be such a rare example!? I`ve put it on a hagner sheet together with some shades which have been certified.

The upper left stamp is a KGV 5d single-line in "deep bright chestnut", 122B!
The upper middle stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "deep yellow brown", 123E!
The upper right stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "chestnut", 123A!
The lower left stamp is a KGV 5d comb. in "deep bright chestnut", 123B!
The lower middle stamp is a KGV 5d comb. from the auction collection I aquired, which is even deeper and darker than the expertized "deep bright chestnut" on the left.
And the lower right stamp is the potential KGV 5d comb. "Intensely dark ("Black") brown", 123F, it is very deep and dark and strongly overinked, so that nearly all details of the stamp are coverd!

Image

Image

Any thoughts are welcome! Could it be a candidate for that rare shade worth being sent out for an expertize?

Thanks very much

josto

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Re: Quantities recorded of the rare Australia KGV stamp shad

Post by satsuma »

Hi Josto
To possibly aid the discussion, here's a retroreveal image:
Image

Colorspace RGBW - Channel G at 2% allowed saturation

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