Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by satsuma »

Unless it's also the flat topped 3, I lean towards that being a 5.

Check out the postmark on the penny roo image in the post before yours.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Kipling »

I agree it's certainly not a "3" with a round top.
I thought it might be one with a flat top, eg like the "3" on the 9d further up the posts.
Probably never know for sure.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Kipling wrote:
25 Dec 2020 14:26
I agree it's certainly not a "3" with a round top.
I thought it might be one with a flat top, eg like the "3" on the 9d further up the posts.
Probably never know for sure.
Kipling
IMO its a 5 - Die 1, First Watermark for sure :D

Notice the small vertical mark with retroreveal
3d roo 5.jpg

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Kipling »

I guess that's more likely.
Cheers

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

The below 3d roo is a third watermark example Die 1

The question I have is that a 15 or a 16?? :D

The ACSC says " The first printing was made in August 1915, The earliest known date of use is 8 Oct 1915 "
The cds seems to have doubled up and is not clear!! And from Perth seems unlikely!!

But it does look like a 15!! :D :D And that would make it special!!
'
3d 3rd cds 1.jpg
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3d 3rd cds r.jpg

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by admin »

1916
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

admin wrote:
12 Apr 2021 00:01
1916
Well it could be- tell me why? I ran it through retroreveal!!! Four different wavelengths mmm..
Nothing can hide easily there-

I have posted a similar era OS dated with two sixes for comparison

I guess I will put it to the side for now :D



3d 3.jpg
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3d 2.jpg
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3d 1.jpg
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3d 4.jpg
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3d 5 .jpg

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »

Pampstamp wrote:
12 Apr 2021 00:49


I have posted a similar era OS dated with two sixes for comparison


Whooppee -- but NSW date slug numerals have nothing to do with WA ones.

Here we have one WA cds saying 1915 on one in your mind, and one saying 1916, both struck 2 seconds apart.



Capture.JPG
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AUSTRALIA_-_Postal_History_1916_3009791.jpg
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

.
I have an interesting contender below :D

It is a 2nd watermark 2d OS. The ACSC states earliest date of use was 15 January 1915!!

Can't work out the postmark or what 16 means?



2d 2ndwmk.jpg
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2d 2ndwmk 1.jpg
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2d 2ndwmk rear.jpg
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Last edited by Global Administrator on 27 Jun 2021 01:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: "AddSpace" button used before images, as all members should click for every image. And "air" and pars and spacing to rest of post.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »

Pampstamp wrote:
26 Jun 2021 23:48

Cant work out the postmark or what 16 means?
The year. 1916.

19.15 is 7.15pm to some.
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
27 Jun 2021 01:17
Pampstamp wrote:
26 Jun 2021 23:48

Cant work out the postmark or what 16 means?
The year. 1916.

19.15 is 7.15pm to some.
Fair enough, I guess!! 24hr time is not common.

Most are not, usually an a or p and 7.15pm is pretty late in the day.
Used late in more than one way- 3rd wmk first issued in Nov 1915 :D

I will get one eventually :D

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
27 Jun 2021 01:17
Pampstamp wrote:
26 Jun 2021 23:48

Cant work out the postmark or what 16 means?
The year. 1916.

19.15 is 7.15pm to some.
Got a second opinion on this - They never used 24hr time in that era!!

Nevertheless 7.15pm is extremely unlikely :D

They reckon its kosher, but will let others decide!


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3d date2.jpg
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3d date.jpg
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3d date1.jpg

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 11:11

Got a second opinion on this- They never used 24hr time in that era!!

Nevertheless 7.15pm is extremely unlikely :D

They reckon its kosher, but will let others decide!
Here are a couple more images of that postmark.

The time line always looks a bit funny.


2021-06-30_111200.jpg
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2021-06-30_111116.jpg
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Yes unnamed "Experts" will of course know far more than anyone here. :idea:

Pampstamp and his alleged unnamed alleged 'Experts" refuse to believe the 16 is 1916 as I stated, and as Ubobo confirms, and he can clutch to his flawed theory of course.

Anyone who knows anything about postmarks could see it was the common Adelaide handstamp - all except pampstamp. And yes, all GPO's believe it or not, processed masses of mail after 5pm. :idea: :idea:

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 11:11

7.15pm is extremely unlikely :D
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
30 Jun 2021 15:40
.
Yes unnamed "Experts" will of course know far more than anyone here. :idea:

Pampstamp and his alleged unnamed alleged 'Experts" refuse to believe the 16 is 1916 as I stated, and as Ubobo confirms, and he can clutch to his flawed theory of course.

Anyone who knows anything about postmarks could see it was the common Adelaide handstamp - all except pampstamp. And yes, all GPO's believe it or not, processed masses of mail after 5pm. :idea: :idea:

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 11:11

7.15pm is extremely unlikely :D
In 24 hour time :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ubobo only confirmed am and pm times and they always looked funny :roll:

Show me ROO cds in 24hr time and I might believe your theory!!
Last edited by Pampstamp on 30 Jun 2021 16:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 15:48
I might believe your theory!!

It is not a THEORY -- it was always a FACT. Your ebay level RARREEERTTY was cancelled 1916 not 1915 as you still believe.

Dragging out totally irrelevant Melbourne and Sydney cancel number cds to make your 1916 a 1915 does not change a thing except to a fevered eBay dreamer mind.

You could not work out what the cancel or the year date was, and you and your alleged unnamed "Experts" said it was not 1916. Good for you. Savvier folks knew both.

"Cant work out the postmark or what 16 means?"

Repeat after me - ADELAIDE GPO and 1916 to your query -


Image
https://stampboards.com/download/file.php?id=142573
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 15:48
I might believe your theory!!

It is not a THEORY -- it was always a FACT. Your ebay level RARREEERTTY was cancelled 1916 not 1915 as you still believe.

Dragging out totally irrelevant Melbourne and Sydney cancel number cds to make your 1916 a 1915 does not change a thing except to a fevered eBay dreamer mind.

You could not work out what the cancel or the year date was, and you and your alleged unnamed "Experts" said it was not 1916. Good for you. Savvier folks knew both.

"Cant work out the postmark or what 16 means?"

Repeat after me - ADELAIDE GPO and 1916 to your query -


Image
https://stampboards.com/download/file.php?id=142573
.

There is only ONE major flaw in your factual case!

24 hour time was NOT used in that era!! :lol:

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »



OMG. :roll:

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Rigs »

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 16:04
.
There is only ONE major flaw in your factual case!

24 hour time was NOT used in that era!! :lol:
.

Pampstamp, I'm no expert but if that is the case why would they make a handstamp with provision for four numbers, instead of three, where time of day is indicated?
.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by satsuma »

Rigs wrote:
30 Jun 2021 16:44
Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 16:04
.
There is only ONE major flaw in your factual case!

24 hour time was NOT used in that era!! :lol:
.

Pampstamp, I'm no expert but if that is the case why would they make a handstamp with provision for four numbers, instead of three, where time of day is indicated?
.
Because 10.15 needs 4 digits?

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Rigs »

satsuma wrote:
30 Jun 2021 16:55
Rigs wrote:
30 Jun 2021 16:44
Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 16:04
.
There is only ONE major flaw in your factual case!

24 hour time was NOT used in that era!! :lol:
.

Pampstamp, I'm no expert but if that is the case why would they make a handstamp with provision for four numbers, instead of three, where time of day is indicated?
.
Because 10.15 needs 4 digits?
Mmmm ... I didn't think that one through did I? :)

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by satsuma »

Does this help the discussion?
retroreveal image
retroreveal image


It's obvious there are two strikes, or a double strike of the canceller.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Goober »


If you look online for similar Adelaide postmarks of that era it becomes obvious that the bottom 2 digits, in this case 16, relate to the year.

The digits in query are the time stamp, as with any hand stamp it is open to human error, so if indeed that is a 9 showing then its probably an error of setting.

To me it could still be an under inked 2, with a possible double cancel compounding things giving it an impression of a 9 - for me it's more likely to be a 12.15 cancel.
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Goober wrote:
30 Jun 2021 17:42

If you look online for similar Adelaide postmarks of that era it becomes obvious that the bottom 2 digits, in this case 16, relate to the year.

The digits in query are the time stamp, as with any hand stamp it is open to human error, so if indeed that is a 9 showing then its probably an error of setting.

To me it could still be an under inked 2, with a possible double cancel compounding things giving it an impression of a 9 - for me it's more likely to be a 12.15 cancel.
Hahahaha ( Because of lockdown I have way to much time on my hands than usual)
I admit, on most probability its a 1916 date-but

It’s a quirky CDS :D
It only caught my attention because of earliest date of use according to ACSC is 15 January 1915!

99% of time cancellations have a large A(am) or P(pm)
24 hour time was NOT used in that era
To the untrained eye it looks the part!

The 3rd Watermark 2d Roo was used from Nov 2015 onwards

So unless you can show me another 24 hour time CDS of the era
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then!!! :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Pampstamp on 30 Jun 2021 18:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »

Pampstamp wrote:
30 Jun 2021 18:21

I admit, on most probability its a 2016 date

You and your alleged unnamed "Experts" are drinking or smoking substances way too powerful for you.

Everyone posting here (except you and your anonymous genius offsiders) agrees it is 1916.

You'll be telling us next you have also decided it is a rare 4d Grey Roo. :roll:

Be a huge hit on Ebay.
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

Here is another contender.

A 9d Die11b with a CDS 19 November 1918!! 8-) :D

I am quietly confident with this one, and if confirmed it would beat the first use date in the ACSC by a country mile!! :lol: :lol:
.
Roo 9d Die11b
Roo 9d Die11b
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9d die11b date back.jpg
Last edited by Pampstamp on 08 Jul 2021 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Global Administrator »

Pampstamp wrote:
08 Jul 2021 22:24
Here is another contender.

A 9d Die11b with a CDS 19 November 2018!! 8-) :D

You really are not good at reading postmarks are you?

Another "quietly confident" clanger from you.

Did your crack team of alleged unnamed "Experts" also agree it was 2018?
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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

.
Ok then, corrected!!

Fat fingers while watching the footy!!

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Pampstamp

Geoff Kellow does state in BW that 'it is likely earlier dates will be found' than April 1919. Your date is obviously 19th November 1918 about a month after the Die 2b plates 3 and 4 were printed. Checking with the Reserve Bank of Australia archive which has the stamp printer's day books inherited from the Commonwealth Bank will provide the exact printing date.

Although certainly Die 2b with the 'Harrison' break and the weakness over ST of australia where the outer frame break has been mostly inked over, it doesn't have the shading weakness over the NCE of pence in the value tablet which is prevalent in the Die 2b's. The cancellation runs over the top right corner so the 'shaving' cannot be checked on the image posted. It also looks to have the Die 2A break which is often inked over.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by PhilipAdams »

Some more information on the 9d Die IIB (Harrison) printings.

(1) Kellow's 1985 book Kangaroos the last Victorian issue contains a detailed listing of the use of the Kangaroo plates for all issues, based on Reserve Bank records. On page 129 he records that the first printing from the Harrison 9d plates was on 16 April 1919, with perforating occurring on the 23 April 1919.

(2) Banwell and Parson's revised 2004 monograph on the 9d refers to the first printing in April 1919, as do more contemporary documents - Dormer Legge's 1948 the Kangaroo Issues of the Stamps of The Commonwealth of Australia, and Rosenblum's 1936 edition of The Stamps of the Commonwealth of Australia.

(3) After 20 minutes of research I did not find supporting evidence for the ACSC (BW)'s claim that the first printing from the Harrison plates was made in October 1918. I note that the same assertion appears in the 2013, 2017 and 2021 issues of the catalogue (the only issues I have access too).

All very curious.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by langtounlad »

The stamp which is identified by Pampstamp as an earliest postal use is not a Die 2B - it is a Die 2.

It has a Queensland flaw and a Darwin flaw and a square top right corner - all features of a Die 2.

There does not appear to be a Die 2B top frame break as the feature referred to Derbybois is a fraction too far right to be that feature. Nor is there any evidence of the Die 2A break.

I also note the lack of a break above the 'I" in NINE of the value tablet. This is present on all but the most grossly overinked Ninepence Die 2Bs.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

langtounlad wrote:
09 Jul 2021 16:55
The stamp which is identified by Pampstamp as an earliest postal use is not a Die 2B - it is a Die 2.
As I said, it was a contender and I awaited confirmation.

To 99% of collectors using the ACSC the following suggested Die11b! :roll:

Some say it doesn't exist, others say the ACSC has been wrong for years!!

I guess I was wrong!! :(
.
9d die11b date1.jpg
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9d die11b date2.jpg
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9d die11b date3.jpg

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

The ACSC listed flaw 27(4)k white flaw upper tail of roo-
states- plate 4 - Die11b!! :D

Accordingly this confirms it along with the other listed ACSC die11b characteristics :lol:

NOT interested in any of the USUAL conspiracy theory allegations, others can think what they want.
( Some need to go to specsavers)

By the guidelines in the ACSC pg 2/8 (2017) and 27(4)k pg 2/104 which are the ONLY guidelines I recognize-
Its a Die11b and earliest known use date :lol: :lol:

PROVE IT otherwise!

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by earlierthebetter »


Hi

I'm curious as to why you recognise the ACSC as the single source of truth?

There have been many more specialised publications and articles printed and published over the years.
Exhibitions, societies, clubs and meetings (remember them...?) add to this knowledge base.

Then there is the huge amount of online knowledge that exists here on Stampboards and in other places.

Mostly garnered through decades of collecting, experience, research and study.

One catalogue cannot contain all that detail and knowledge.

The ACSC is a great resource and reference but it is not the only resource and reference available.

Rgds

Greg
Cheers

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Pampstamp »

.

I don't!! Ever heard of Gibbons?

Each to there own- I just prefer the ACSC.

I find that the ACSC is accepted by most, is accurate and detailed & covers most bar the super specialist areas!!

IMO it is by far the most superior catalogue anywhere!

You can stick to your Scott resources :lol: :lol: :roll:

Have a tea party with a few mates, invite Mulder and Scully and Elvis along for your conspiracy
theories!! :roll: :roll:

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Pampstamp is, of course, correct. The answer is in title of the ACSC itself. It is a specialist catalogue whereas SG Part 1 is much more of a General Commonwealth catalogue. Scott does not do well on Commonwealth issues.

This is especially true of the Kangaroo and KGV volumes of the ACSC which are far more comprehensive than SG and any other generalised work.

That having been said there are many more individual volumes on particlular values. It all depends how specialised you want to be.

There are great studies in the BSAP Bulletin and their checklists, as there are in the ACCC of NSW journal which take specific values to another level.

As an example you just have to look at the entries in the ACSC for the KGV 1d shades against the considerably truncated entries in SG Part 1.

I have spoken at length to the catalogue editor of SG regarding the discrepancies in shade description (even within SG itself). The Greyish Ultramarine shade of the 3rd watermark Roo 6d overprinted NWPI (SG110 a and b with SGO9) does not appear in the Australian section when, of course, it must stem from an original Australian shade.

For many years NWPI SG106a was described in SG as Die 2 when it doesn't exist. It will be amended to Die 2A in the next edition. That is not to say that the ACSC is without error. As one example ACSC 38(2) zd and ze refer to the imprint as being N over A when it is, of course, N over N. This is perpetuated in the 2021 Kangaroo edition.

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Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote:
17 Aug 2020 23:00
Image.Image.Image

Image

Sometime after 1993 Sandstone Post office was downgraded from a post office to a CPA.
Community Postal Agency.
UPDATE.
This CPA is still open as my sister posted me a postcard from there today.
Full time horse non-whisperer, post box searcher and lichen covered granite rock percher. Gee I'm handsome !
You gottem birds, butterflies, shells, maps, flags and heads on stamps ? Me wantem !

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Ubobo.R.O.
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Location: Golden Beach, Qld, Australia

Re: Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

And here is the postcard that the Mystery Woman sent

IMG_20210923_0002.jpg
Postcard sent from Sandstone WA to Golden Beach QLD. September 2021.
Postcard sent from Sandstone WA to Golden Beach QLD. September 2021.

The former Post & Telegraph Office. Sandstone, WA. Pictured 13/9/2021.
The former Post & Telegraph Office. Sandstone, WA. Pictured 13/9/2021.
Full time horse non-whisperer, post box searcher and lichen covered granite rock percher. Gee I'm handsome !
You gottem birds, butterflies, shells, maps, flags and heads on stamps ? Me wantem !

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