Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

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Australia Kangaroo stamps - earliest postally known dates?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

I was surprised to see how little info there is on the earliest known dates of use of Australian stamps.

I know for US stamps people really seriously collect (and search for) EKDs. They're also called EKUs -- Earliest Known Usages.

So I thought we might have some fun going through our collections looking for EKDs. Who knows, you might find some hidden gem.

I've pulled together a spreadsheet with the info currently in the ACSC, plus the info in the Gray collection catalogue.

Now I'm going to go through my collection and duplicates to see how many of those "unknown" boxes I can fill with the dates of postmarks -- not to mention how many of the recorded EKDs I can beat.

Anyone else want to play?

Post images of anything you find here and I'll add the info to the spreadsheet, which you'll find here:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pI1bNvib6t-_QG9-YwMvlFw

Greg

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

OK, so here's what I had in mind.

Image

The stamp on the left is the earliest 2nd wmk 2½d roo I have, dated 27 Oct 1915. There is no recorded EKD for that stamp. Oct 27 is not super close to the July 1915 issue date, but not too bad. It goes in as the EKD until someone finds an earlier one.

The stamp on the right is the earliest 3rd wmk 2½d roo I have, dated 26 Sept 1917. Again, no recorded EKD, and ACSC says "earliest known use is September 1917." So that one is going to be pretty hard to beat.

Want to check out your 2½d stamps and try to beat my dates?

Greg

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for Greg............

Post by doug2222usa »

I admit, my jaw is hanging open and I'm at a loss for words.

Do you mean to tell me that anybody can put a spreadsheet onto Google,
that everyone can look at, and comment upon, and improve???

This is news to me (duh) :shock: .

Would you kindly start a new thread for SB and talk briefly about how to do
this, tips, shortcuts, cautions, etc.??

I always wanted to compile a list of EKU-Cs for the Washington-Franklin heads...

Right off the bat, since there's less than a hundred items, could we
persuade you to add columns for Scott and Gibbons numbers?
I'll help with Scott.

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Post by apptec »

Great Idea Greg.

Will have a trawl through my stuff after the weekend, as I have a very busy one ahead of me.

I have also always wanted to make a list like this, but never got around to it.

Thanks
H
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for Glen..........

Post by doug2222usa »

May I post images of the 2008 Scott Catalog for all the 'roos, via PhotoBucket?
It would comprise something under two A4 pages.

Your call, yes or no; don't want to get you into a jam.

Or, if you prefer, I could simply type them out as original text, instead
of scanning the actual Scott pages.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Good idea -- I can add the GB and Scott numbers easily. I have both catalogues, thanks. Will do so in the next little while.

If I roll this out to the other stamps of the era -- the KGV heads and especially the postage dues -- Scott becomes pretty irrelevant, as it doesn't list all sorts of things. I think Gibbons has pretty much everything.

Greg

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Post by Tas Philatelist »

Greg, this is a very interesting project. I would be interested in seeing early uses of Roos in TASMANIA in 1913.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Thanks, Tas

I've been quietly puttering away at this, but haven't added any info here or on the spreadsheet because I haven't found anything to add, despite going through quite a pile of roos looking.

I've found one early-issue postmark from Tasmania (the 4d) and others should exist.

Some of the gaps in our knowledge are really strange. We don't know the earliest dates of use of the Die 2 and 2A 1d red kangaroos.

The place I've started is the 2d and 2½d roos.

Here's what's known:

2d
First wmk, issued 15 JA 1913, 3 first day covers known.
Second wmk, issue date unknown, earliest known 15 JA 1915.
Third wmk Die 1, issue date unknown, earliest use unknown, ACSC notes a use in November 1915.
Third wmk Die 2A, issue date unknown, first known use 11 JN 1918, but earier ones should exist.

2½d
First wmk, issued 27 JA 1913, 2 first day covers known.
Second wmk, issue date July ?? 2925, earliest known 27 OC 1915.
Third wmk, issue date unknown but probably March 1917, earliest use 26 SP 1917.

For both values, I suspect earlier dates on the first watermark may be possible, and if the exist they seem likely to be from Tasmania.

And for both values, the earliest known dates for the second and third watermarks are well after the stamps were supposedly issued. We should be able to find earlier uses.

I think this is a fun field to explore. My interest was piqued by finding an early date on the 4d, and now I'm really curious to see what people can find.

Please check your collections!

Greg

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Post by admin »

Image


Image

Nice project Greg. 8)

Just a technical point ... re your list, the only FDC that are accepted by specialists as being true FIRST DAY COVERS are the 1d value as per the one above I sold. All have the Fred Hagen flap sealing wafer as shown. The only other "possible" is a ½d green. FDC means "First Day Of Issue ANYWHERE in the country" .. not "the first day recorded used on cover from Sydney", as Shreves seem to have neatly re-defined it as. 8)

The Gray "set" (in appalling condition) that sold for about $75,000 at Shreves had a HIGHLY misleading write up - viz

---------------

½p to 5/- First Watermark issue cplt., each value tied to individual matching earliest known usage and/or first day cover by Sydney machine postmarks of various 1913 dates, each cover was serviced and addressed by Frederick Hagen, a well known Sydney stamp dealer, for a collector named Mr. L. Winter of Bathhurst, N.S.W., with the exception of the ½p and 1p (which are very early usages, but not the earliest recorded usages for these values - nevertheless are included for keeping the matching "set" intact).

All of the covers represent the earliest known usage for each of the individual values, and in some cases (specifically the 2p, 2½p, 3p, 4p and 2/-) have been determined to be official first day usages and listed as such - at A$15,000 each - in the Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue.

The 5/- value has been posted registered, and in addition to be the earliest known usage of this value, it is the only recorded example of the 5/- First Watermark on cover, most of the covers have foxing (toning) spots to varying degrees (which could easily be professionally removed), some have only the faintest trace of the foxing (particularly the high denomination covers), otherwise this set is quite handsome and unique.

There were no official dates of issue of the various Kangaroo denominations, and stamps were dispatched from the Stamp Printer to the various States only when fresh supplies were required. In Sydney, the leading stamp dealer, Fred Hagen, kept a close watch on activities at the Sydney G.P.O., and was able to identify the dates on which the various values were first issued.

All but the ½p and 1p represent the earliest dates of issue for their respective values anywhere in the Commonwealth and several have already been assigned First Day issue status in the Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue. It is anticipated with the appearance of this remarkable set of covers at auction, the editors of the ACSC will add further listings, in future editions of their catalog, of the other remaining values as either first day covers or, at the very least, earliest recorded usages.

These are the only such covers in private hands, making these covers among the most famous and valuable first day covers/earliest known usages of any first issue set in the world. There is an incomplete set up to the 4p value in the Royal Collection, whose dates match those found on the covers present in this set.

.
Last edited by admin on 13 Dec 2008 12:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

You may have plugged one of the gaps in my spreadsheet. What die was the stamp on that cover?

Greg

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Post by Tas Philatelist »

Greg, Glen is correct in pointing out that "FDC" is first day of use anywhere in the country.

That said, there is a lot of interest in early uses in the different States of Australia for the reason that some States received/used their Roos at different times.

For instance, Tasmania still had stocks of the Tasmanian 1/2 Pictorial and the 1d and 2d Pictorial. These stamps were used well into 1913 which delayed use of the Roos. For this reason, recorded the early uses of Roos in Tasmania is a very interesting sub-project.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

OK, Tas, now I understand what you're getting at. Yes, an interesting side project for all six states.

Greg

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Post by admin »

Greg .. ithe 1d Red FDC are all Die 1.

From my rarity page write up on the above FDC I had this, FWIW, and for the record -

---------------

Australia's very first FDC. Only 11 recorded. Three of those are in a well known Melbourne collection. Three of the other 11 are in institutions - two in the Australia Post archival Chapman collection, and one is in the Royal Collection. Three were in Arthur Gray's superb collection auctioned in New York late February. Where an example in slightly lesser condition with wrinkling sold for $A12,750 addressed to the same collector. (Several 1d roo FDC's are addressed to Whiting - another noticeably foxed Gray example was identically addressed to mine - to "Mr. A. M. Whiting"

The reverse, as do all 11 known FDC's, has the attractive Fred Hagen scalloped dealer embossed seal. Australia's leading FD cover expert Frank Pauer (who owns several of these) advises me this is the only example recorded that has any arrival cds cancel.

The plain white envelopes Hagen used to mail all these FDC's via a street pillar posting box were incredibly flimsy. Very lightweight paper stock, which was prone to creasing, bending, wrinkling, and toning very rapidly. Remember each envelope was manually type-written first, so they were likely a bit rumpled before they left his shop! The condition of this I repeat is exceptional, compared to the others I have inspected.

The 1d red is the only true Kangaroo First Day COVER. Gray had several 'earliest known dates' (which sold for $A78,750 and were mostly in truly appalling condition) but they are not a FDC. No Kangaroo from ANY other watermark - right up to the 1930s, exists on any FDC. Amazing, but true.

If you want a real Kangaroo FDC this is all you have to select from. And the 1d was of course the first Kangaroo stamp issued. Indeed the very first Australian Commonwealth stamp issued.

All 11 existing 1d covers have identical Sydney machine cancels from "Sydney/Jan 2 - 5.30pm/1913". The cancel on this one is neatly placed - several other FDC are at an untidy angle. The "2" has not properly inked which is of course irrelevant due to arrival handstamp.

This one has the wonderful verifying Friday arrival cancel of "North Melbourne January 3" (1,000 km away) proving original use on Jan 2 in Sydney - no other date was possible. Unique in this regard.

.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Which still means no earliest recorded date for die 2. It occurs to me we also don't have earliest dates for the large and small OS perfs.

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Re: for Greg............

Post by Skippy »

doug2222usa wrote:I admit, my jaw is hanging open and I'm at a loss for words.

Do you mean to tell me that anybody can put a spreadsheet onto Google,
that everyone can look at, and comment upon, and improve???

This is news to me (duh) :shock: .
News to me too :shock:

What a great idea Greg !!

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Re: for Greg............

Post by tonyevans1 »

doug2222usa wrote:I admit, my jaw is hanging open and I'm at a loss for words.

Do you mean to tell me that anybody can put a spreadsheet onto Google,
that everyone can look at, and comment upon, and improve???

This is news to me (duh) :shock: .

Would you kindly start a new thread for SB and talk briefly about how to do
this, tips, shortcuts, cautions, etc.??

I always wanted to compile a list of EKU-Cs for the Washington-Franklin heads...

Right off the bat, since there's less than a hundred items, could we
persuade you to add columns for Scott and Gibbons numbers?
I'll help with Scott.
https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=writely ... e&rm=false

Read all about it - Tony
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Post by reddog »

Hi all Reddog here.

The following are a couple of 1d roo covers. One will at least set the bar for the die IIa at 26 June 1914 which is (I think) in the period they were being printed.

The other in an interesting mistake which caught my eye.

Image

Cheers,
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Thanks, Mark. I've added the info to the spreadsheet. (Well, I'm ignoring the 1912 one!)

That's now four places where we've been able to move the earliest date or record a previously unrecorded one. I'm highlighting any new information in yellow on the sheet.

Greg

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Post by clemo »

If I could get this Sub Cliche Die 2/Dia 2A authenticated it would up the date of Die 2A to 7 June 1914.

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Post by GUTTERS »

Greg Ioannou wrote:Which still means no earliest recorded date for die 2. It occurs to me we also don't have earliest dates for the large and small OS perfs.
Die 2 large os it's the earliest I,ve got. 3 JA 14

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Post by GUTTERS »

Greg Ioannou wrote:Which still means no earliest recorded date for die 2. It occurs to me we also don't have earliest dates for the large and small OS perfs.
Die 1 large os it's the earliest I,ve got. 18 SEP 13

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by 3dBlue »

Hi,

I don't collect the Kangaroo series as yet, but cannot walk past a nice postmark. This is the earliest and only 1d Red I posess (which I assume is just a stock standard stamp). CORINDA June 24th 1913.

I do collect KGV Heads and can we play the same game?

Chris

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by arls1 »

This is the earliest cancel I have of a Roo. Feb 27th 1913.

Image

Arlene

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by Tas Philatelist »

Hello Stampboarders

Just giving this thread a bit of a bump up.

Could everyone please search their ROOS and post any with early-ish 1913 pmks from TASMANIA?

Many Thanks in advance. :D

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by 3dBlue »

Hi,

Being a complete novive in regards to Roo's, could someone please explain the difference between the two die's?

Regards Chris

1: Stamp on the right I believe to be a January CDS which would put in in the first 15 days of issue. The stamp on the left is hand cancelled and datestamped.

Image

2: Inverted Roo CDS --- April 7th 1913

Image

3: Mount Barker WA --- March 12th 1913

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by Tas Philatelist »

Keep seraching those Roos for early Tassie pmks. Hop to it! (no pun intended).

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by billlel »

Image

Found this tassie in my junk box.
Heres hoping its 1913 not 13.45pm.
Not sure of the town either.
Cheers Bill.
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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by doug2222usa »

Best guess on the P.O. is Longford, which opened in 1872.

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by Roo~Chalon »

Here is a cover of mine that just bumps out Reddog by a month for a 1d Die IIA on Cover.
23 May 1914

Image

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by Clive »

Roo Chalon,

Love that cover and the 23 May 1914 postmark. The date is very special for me - it was the day my father was born.

Clive

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by Roo~Chalon »

Thanks Clive, its a nice cover indeed!

I received it today, and loved it instantly :mrgreen:

I just so happened to be looking at Gregs excel and had the cover in front of me.
All my other covers are neatly filed away, so i should have a look at them too for dates to see if anymore can fill a gap or two. So it was just coincidence that the two came together today.

I wish it was so easy to depart with, being a special date for you. But unfortunately with a Roo on it, it would be impossible for me to do!

But a great date for sure. 1 day off my Bday (22) and the same date as my friends daughter (23) - not the year however :wink:

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by josto »

Hi!

I just remembered this thread and thought I might have a look through my collection. By the way, can there anything be assumed about a premium on early dates? How close should the date be to the date of issue to maybe get a premium!? I started with the 1st wmk issues, and here are those that are not too far away from the date of issue (I`ve had no look at the condition, just the date!):

My earliest 1/2d roo is from January 1913 from Sydney, but unfortunately the day is not visible! But still an early one I think!

Image

My earliest 1d roo Die I is from 14 January 1913 from Melbourne, so it`s about 12 days after date of issue!

Image

My earliest 1d roo Die II is from January 1913 from Melbourne but unfortunately the day is not visible! But still an early one I think!

Image

And here is one for Tasstamp, it`s my earliest 1d roo cancelled in Tasmania, I think it`s Burnie. The stamp is Die II and it`s either 7 or 17 February 1913! Quite early one too I think!

Image

Greetings

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Those ones where you can just see an early month but no date are always so frustrating! Thanks, Josto.

I'll update that spreadsheet soon. It's been a while.

Greg

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by josto »

Hi Greg,

thanks for your answer!

As I had a further look through the 2nd and 3rd wmk issues, I found a few which also come quite close to an EKD, but it`s no new one! :(

Here is a third wmk 6d blue roo die II with I think 31 December 1915. The ACSC says EKD is 15 December 1915. First I read 1 December 1915 and thought I found a new EKD, but then I recognized that the 3 in front of the 1 should belong to the day 31, although it`s a bit far away. Nevertheless quite early I think!

Image

Here is a third wmk 3d roo die I with 13 October 1915. ACSC says EKD is 8 October 1915, also quite close, just 5 days later.

Image

Here is a third wmk 3d roo die IIB with 26 January 1923. ACSC says EKD is 11 January 1923, also quite close.

Image

And here is a third wmk 1 sh roo Die IIB with 17 December 1920. ACSC says EKD is 9 December 1920, also quite close.

Image

Greetings

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Re: Kangaroo earliest known dates

Post by doug2222usa »

On the 6d., what's AFTER the "5" in "15"? Whatever it is,
it's within the date slug.

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Very early use of 1d Kangaroo - how early are yours?

Post by Faust »

I received today a postcard send to Belgium from Melbourne with a very early use of the 1d.

The postage was underpaid and a 10C stamp was given in Melbourne?

What could be the first word before Melbourne, Ludea ????

I like the first two sentences " This is the new Commonwealth stamp. We think its ugly.", no everybody liked the new stamp.

What board members think is the value of such a card?

I have seen one offered by Leski dated 24 Feb on Ebay for 80A$.

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Image

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
Ha!

1913 dates are far too late. :lol: :lol:

This superbly struck March 1912 cancel I have in stock at $75, as the earlist known date recorded on a Kangaroo, as far as I am aware. :idea:

"Sandstone Western Australia" is a scarce cancel anyway - the place was nearly a Ghost Town at the time this cancel was struck.

https://www.theage.com.au/news/Western-Australia/Sandstone/2005/02/17/1108500208685.html

"Sandstone - Old gold mining town now a virtual ghost town

Located 157 km east of Mount Magnet and 661 km north of Perth, Sandstone is a town which started life as a boom gold-rush town in the late 1890s and had become a virtual ghost town by the end of World War 1.

Consequently the history of the town is very much the history of the East Murchison - the discovery of gold, the sudden influx of miners, the dreams of a town that would last forever, the sudden decline in the Goldfields, the disappearance of the population, and the town settling down to become a small centre for the surrounding pastoral leases."


Sandstone RO 15/3/1907; PO 25/5/1907.

PO did not even OPEN until 1907 and the plaace was near abandoned within a decade.

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Allanswood »

I dont think that cancel means 10c more - we didnt have cents then but pence. :shock:
The 1d was the correct rate for a postcard. :D

I think you've just seen ones of Glens famous "date slug" errors! :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS I think your LUDEA is actually the end of VICTORIA!
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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Faust »

Greg, sorry

But I think 1d was correct for England and other commonwealth countries.

Other foreign countries needed 1½d as postage.

The 10c tax mark is correct in that time.

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Global Administrator »

European tax mark for sure (10 French Centimes) and yes 1d was only for Cwth countries.
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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Allanswood »

Then it cant be a 10cents cancel! We did not have 10cents until 1960's
It cant be Aust Tax. Or is the 10c from Belgium?

Correct with commonwealth. But then its just 2 1/2d, so 1 1/2d more to pay not 10!

Or does the 1 1/2d = 10c in Belgium 1913?

(Just saw glens post above to).
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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Faust »

Glen, Greg,

In the forum Taxed covers is a scan of a letter also from Melbourne to Roumania placed by Glen with the following description:

Probably the only Kangaroo cover in existence TAXED (or even untaxed!) to Roumania.

1921 Melbourne December 1, to Gaiora Roumania. Has manuscript blue "60" and an over inked octagonal "T 60c" h/s on front.

On the back a 60b Romania postage due tied by arrival cds of Jan 18, 1922.


Glen perhaps can you place the cover also in this forum.

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by dwhopper »

The 10c refers to 10 centimes. Since there was no universal currency across the world to use to asses the amount to be paid by the recipient one currency was chosen. It was centimes. At the receiving end that amount in centimes was converted to local currency. The 10 centime marking was applied at the post office of origin or close to it (same country).

In recent times you see notations like 27/45, indicating that the rate should have been 45 but 27 was missing. So that ratio can then be used to figure out what to charge the recipient.

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo

Post by Faust »

Hi dwhopper,

This means that the 10c in the octagonal was put in Melbourne.
This makes sence if you look to the cover of Glen where the 10c was overstamped with 60.
Thanks for your clarification.
What is still missing is the current value of the postcard.

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo - how early are yours?

Post by ozstamps »

What is THE earliest date seem by members on the 1d?

Someone sent me a copy today with a clear January 9 1913 that he wanted $100 for, as being used in first week of issue.

Sounded a bit optimistic to me but it then occurred to me that other than the few FDC, week 1 might actually be a nice piece, with the Anniversary fast looming up on us.

What is the EARLIEST date others have?

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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo - how early are yours?

Post by starling »

My earliest is also 9th January (a Thursday), from Melbourne. Given that the 1d 'Roos didn't reach Melbourne until Saturday 4th January 1913, that is only five days after the first day.


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BTW, I wasn't the one was trying to sell it to Glen, but if it is worth $100... :D


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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo - how early are yours?

Post by ozstamps »

Being as this is Australia's first stamp, and soon to be 100 years old, I suspect very early dates will command a far higher price than say, early dates on a 6d Brown roo.

I sold this FDC below, the finest known - for about $12,000, so I feel that used singles from the first few days will one day command pretty hefty prices - well into 3 figures anyway.

It may well be few if any are known for all those days. And for a keen Roo collector to have the first week in clear dated copies would be a superb challenge!

SG list specific prices for useage in the first week or so of the 1d Black at high prices, and I see no reason why ACSC will not one day, for the 1d Roo, our first stamp.
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Re: Very early use of 1d Kangaroo - how early are yours?

Post by starling »

Found a 1d Kangaroo with a 3rd January 1913 (Friday) date from Sydney, only the second day of use and one day before it was available in Melbourne.


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Will have to keep looking for a 2nd January cancel :roll:


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What is the earliest postmarked date on a 1d red roo?

Post by Clive »

I'm trying to find out, if possible, the earliest postmarked date on a 1d red roo, apart from Sydney, where covers are known dated 2 January 1913.

According to ACSC the stamp was issued in Sydney on Thursday 2 January 1913 and Melbourne on 4 January; other States received supplies 'during the next few days', although none was distributed to South Australia until mid-April.

So, for Queensland, Tasmania, Western Australia and Victoria, stamps should exist postmarked from around the week beginning Monday 6 January.

What are the earliest 1d roo dates Stampboarders have?

Clive

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Re: What is the earliest postmarked date on a 1d red roo?

Post by tascollector »

Clive, you may be aware that the Tas Philatelic Society Bulletin Board has been recording a census of early dates on 'roos for a couple of years. There are hundreds of examples across a great many of the Tasmanian Post Offices.

The purpose is to pin down the late dates for cancels on Tas Pictorials by identifying the earliest dates on the new 'roos.

The earliest date of all that I can see in the census is LAUNCESTON - JA 23 13 . I would bet that there are earlier dates from the large post offices but as usual people dont take so much notice of the strikes from Hobart and Launceston.

We'd love to have any early dates for Tas recorded here http://tps.org.au/bb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=162 :)

Pete

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