Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

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Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by HalfpennyYellow »

satsuma wrote:The logic of producing stamps/sheets like this escapes me.
Probably the reason why they were discontinued after a couple of decades.
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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unlov

Post by Global Administrator »

I once had a table of WHAT corners letters proved that wing margins were re-perfed. Does anyone have that to post here?

i.e. this era stamp F.I. lower letterings MUST have a wide Wing Margin at left or it clearly is a re-perf. No exceptions.


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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unlov

Post by emason »

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Wing margins are found only on GB QV stamps printed on Emblems, Spray or Garter watermarked paper.

The values 3d, 6d, 9d, 10d, 1/- and 2/- were all printed on Emblems and/or Spray w/m paper in panes of 20 (4 across and 5 down). The sheet format was three panes across and 4 panes down, with inter-pane gutters between the horizontal panes. The gutters fall between the 4th and 5th stamps and between the 8th and 9th stamps in the row. For stamps with check letters, these positions correspond to letters 'D' and 'E' for positions 4 and 5; and 'H' and 'I' for positions 8 and 9.

The values 4d and 8d were printed on Garter w/m paper in panes of 60 (6 across and 10 down). The sheet format was 2 panes across and 2 panes down, with an inter-pane gutter between the two horizontal panes. The gutter falls between the 6th and 7th stamps in the row. For stamps with check letters, these positions correspond to letters 'F' and 'G' for positions 6 and 7.

The gutters were perforated down the middle, producing stamps in those positions with either a right or left wing margin.


Image
Note 1: The horizontal position of the stamp in the row is denoted by the check letter in the lower right hand corner.

Note 2: All the above also hold true for the earlier printings of surface printed stamps with no check letters.

Eventually, the Emblems, Spray and Garter watermarked papers were all replaced by Crown watemarked paper which had no interpane gutters. Therefore no stamp with a Crown w/m has a wing margin.
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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unlov

Post by Global Administrator »

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emason wrote: The gutters separating the panes of 6d Emblems and Spray w/m sheets were perforated down the middle. This created stamps with ‘wing margins’ between horizontal positions ‘D’-‘E’ and ‘H’-‘I’.


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(The check letters in lower right corner denote horizontal position. Therefore, any stamp with ‘D’, ‘E’, ‘H’, or ‘I’ in that corner should have a ‘wing margin’ as shown above.

This also applies to other values printed on Emblems or Spray watermarked paper, including the 3d, 9d, 10d, 1/- and 2/- stamps.)
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=84122

Very good quick glance table, and I am sure 90% of those on the market have had the wing margins re-perforated off!

Glen
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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unlov

Post by Aden »

Image

New South Wales 2d with wing margin

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Orpheas »

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It seems wing margins aren't unloved any more - most people who commented on this thread claim to like them or even prefer them!

I not only like them, but actively prefer them in my GB QV surface-printed collection. Partly because they stand out, and partly because wing margins often improve the centering (which in these issues, was as a rule atrocious).

Here are a couple of wing margins I purchased recently:

GB_SG92.jpg
SG92 1865-67 printings of the 3d (large white corner letters, heraldic emblems watermark).



GB_SG119.jpg

SG119 1867-1880 printings of the 2/-. This one really does show how the existence of a wing margin improves the centering.
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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Global Administrator »

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Image

If I had this GB pair in stock, and had a $100 asking price on either copy - which one would you choose? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Total no-brainer for most collectors. :lol: :lol:

Glen
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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Number-O-Ne »

I never collected GB / British Commonwealth, but I find these wide on one side stamps very nice and attractive. I won't have a problem buying these, in case one day I develop a new collecting interest.

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by piccinini78 »

I have in hand the Stanley Gibbons 2014 British Empire 1840 - 1970 catalog and on page 10 it says: '' the margins of the wings were frowned upon by the first collectors, but no more! ''

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Global Administrator wrote:
30 Oct 2020 12:15
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Image

If I had this GB pair in stock, and had a $100 asking price on either copy - which one would you choose? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Total no-brainer for most collectors. :lol: :lol:

Glen
Hmm, I'm struggling with this question. The Sheriff has "the wisdom of Solomon" (i.e. smart cookie), so I know that if I suggested "he split the pair of plate 1's", he'd ridicule me "to within an inch of my life". :D

Even if someone "did the dirty, before he got them" .....

pair.jpg
Split pair of stamps, Victorian 1/-, including wing margin


.... I still don't think its "a no brainer" as to which one people would prefer.
Perhaps statistically more might choose "the left stamp", but the "right one" would be my choice ..... its a nicer stamp, and they are still "very popular" in the UK.

People like them "Central Postmark" (SON) ....

SON.jpg
Examples of Wing Marginal stamps with "Socked on Nose" Postmark


People life them "Face Free" (Clear Profile)

profile.jpg
Examples of Wing Marginal Stamps with "Face Free" Postmark


Indeed, if you look at Andrew Lajers Autumn brochure (Out this week), it's full of them ....
(These are just the singles "Blocks are NEVER split, and attract a BIG premium") ....

wing_oct_2020.jpg
Autumn Selection "Wing Margins" - Offered by UK Dealer

Given that they are now back in fashion, and complete ones are probably 8-10x as rare as the equivalent non wing positions "in the surviving pool", premium payable for the superior specimens is "very healthy indeed".

"Celebrate diversity" .....
"Celebrating sameness" is a relic of 100 years when everyone "just wanted to fill a pre-printed album".

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by joelk »

Global Administrator wrote:
30 Oct 2020 12:15
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Image

If I had this GB pair in stock, and had a $100 asking price on either copy - which one would you choose? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Total no-brainer for most collectors. :lol: :lol:

Glen
It would be a shame to split them.

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Global Administrator »

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Agree, and it is not my pair, and I have hence not split them. :lol: :lol:

HOWEVER, I can bet my house that if I showed 100 collectors these 2 single stamps, side by side, on a black stockcard and had $100 each price on each, 90% would choose the left-hand stamp. :mrgreen:

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Thanks Sheriff, we are on the same page, although my (parochial pebbly) patch might only see a 60/40 preference. Not going to argue with your Global reach on that one!!

(OttowaMike can be relieved that his actual stamps were not harmed in the demo, but I needed to clarify it before attempting "the other unanswered question on this thread").

Someone asked "how trimming affected value" .... I've not seen any extensive research into that issue, but I can tell you some observations I have made, which can be useful when visualising "some price guidelines".

First up: Perfs are only ONE factor in the equation .... nicely centred, clean / fresh, proper postmark and overall appearance all play a part, with usually not "just one factor" dominating (unlike the PSE!!).

I like to think of "just five states" for a wing margin.

1) Complete wing margins (Plenty of exhibits above).
Whilst they did, for a period, fall from favour, they are now back "front and centre" in the book, and often command "modest premiums" (as collectors struggle to complete their mini pane reconstructions).

2) Trimmed ................................... 3) Wide Re-perfed ......................... 4) Professional Re-perf

wing_reperf.jpg
Wing Margin Trimmed, Wide Re-perf and Professional Re-perf


(I should point out "no stamps have been harmed in this demo - just photoshopped to simulate the effect" :D ).

5) "Pigs ear" Re-perf
Not going to show a picture - You all have seen the hopeless ones "that dig deep into the stamp design with wonky and uneven holes". These are just spacefillers, and should be priced as such (or as eBay calls them, "bunny feed").


The trimmed, wide and professional are interesting price-wise, as unless the stamps are exceptionally rare, the trimmed is usually the weakest priced ("pig's ear, excepted"), and they step up, from there.

A professionally re-perfed stamp, done well, usually is "about half the value" of a standard stamp.
This price differential is barely noticeable on the common ones, (and often gets lost in "bunny activity distortions"), but as you move up the rarity scale, you can see it more clearly ....

sg90a_k_in_circle.jpg
sg90a variety - K in Circle


You can see that the Re-perfed one is "of the wide re-perf variety", hence "a tad lower" than half price.
A professional re-perf would see that price rise "a bit"

However, if you had this "Special K" variety "as a pair", with the adjacent "normally relatively worthless" stamp, you magically double its value.

sg090a_p001_1862_K_in_circle_1750qbin_.jpg
sg90a variety - K in circle - Pair (Sold for £1750)


As you climb to the heights of extreme rarity, people "take what they can get" .....
Here is a nice one, with RPS certificate (not even mentioning re-perf) .....

sg120var.jpg
sg120 variant - Plate 3, with RPS Cert (and my inset, to highlight the plate 3)


At this level, "it is what it is".
(Not all trimmed edges were trimmed by collectors, a fair proportion were trimmed by people that "just snipped the envelopes, not realising the blank area was part of the design").


And for showcase examples, I found this pair ...

sg109 Plate_10_Abnormal.jpg
sg109 var - Plate 10 Abnormal (Wing margin and trimmed wing margin copies)


One with full wing was asking £35000, the one with trimmed wing was asking £32000 (for superior quality, IMO).

Who buys the trimmed one, and whether they normalise the perfs all round, is something "way beyond my pay grade" (but ..... having seen that twit in the US sign the back of the British Guiana stamp, in pen, with a shoe monogram, I rule nothing out :( ).

What should be clear, I hope, is that "all stamps, in all grades" have a home somewhere, and whilst some of us regards ourselves as "merely custodians of the exquisite", there are people that want "to convert their income into momentary pleasures, whilst destroying long term value".

"It was ever thus"

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by emason »

I used avoid buying stamps with wing margins as I preferred them 'well centred'. But tastes change, and I now acually prefer them as there is a better chance of a complete cancel.

Here are couple of recent acquisitions.

1s green wings.jpg
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1865/1867 Great Britain SG103 & SG144 square format

Post by aerogi »

I have these two stamps in what seems like square format, not in the best condition though.

I wonder
1) how this was possible?
2) was it the whole sheet, or only a part of it?
3) does it give a premium, or a reduction on CV

Furthermore, I am starting to learn about the plate numbers but a lot is not clear to me. Catalogue gives two catalogue numbers for the 2nd picture: 143 rose, and 144 pale rose. For the latter one it does give different catalogue values for plates 11 to 20. Plate 20 being the scarce one. can I assume it is then a SG144? On the other hand it shows also plate numbers 14, 17, 18 and 19 with 'specimen' for SG143.

It is rather confusing.

I am using Stanley Gibbons Concise 2010
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Re: 1865/1867 Great Britain SG103 & SG144 square format

Post by norvic »

I suggest you search for "Wing margins" here, where you will find many examples and answers.
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics - Remember almost everything I picture is available, unless otherwise stated or copied from elsewhere, as I reduce a roomful of 'stuff' - just ask. GB stamps info: https://blog.norphil.co.uk, NPhilatelics on twitter, www norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk for our e-commerce site

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Global Administrator »

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Correct - merged into main topic. :)
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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by aerogi »

thanks!

didn't know they were called 'wing margins'

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by capetriangle »

aerogi

When wing margins are removed by reperforation they are about as popular as Belgium stamps are with the Sunday label removed.

Kindest regards

Richard

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Re: 1865/1867 Great Britain SG103 & SG144 square format

Post by Orpheas »

aerogi wrote:
19 Dec 2020 19:34
Furthermore, I am starting to learn about the plate numbers but a lot is not clear to me. Catalogue gives two catalogue numbers for the 2nd picture: 143 rose, and 144 pale rose. For the latter one it does give different catalogue values for plates 11 to 20. Plate 20 being the scarce one. can I assume it is then a SG144? On the other hand it shows also plate numbers 14, 17, 18 and 19 with 'specimen' for SG143.
SG143 and 144 are fundamentally the same basic stamp; they merely have different shades. Therefore, both shades ought to exist printed from all plates.

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Re: 1865/1867 Great Britain SG103 & SG144 square format

Post by mozzerb »

Orpheas wrote:
20 Dec 2020 04:37
aerogi wrote:
19 Dec 2020 19:34
Furthermore, I am starting to learn about the plate numbers but a lot is not clear to me. Catalogue gives two catalogue numbers for the 2nd picture: 143 rose, and 144 pale rose. For the latter one it does give different catalogue values for plates 11 to 20. Plate 20 being the scarce one. can I assume it is then a SG144? On the other hand it shows also plate numbers 14, 17, 18 and 19 with 'specimen' for SG143.
SG143 and 144 are fundamentally the same basic stamp; they merely have different shades. Therefore, both shades ought to exist printed from all plates.
The way SG list these isn't as helpful as it might be, basically for historical reasons.

Originally, the listings merely footnoted that different plate numbers exist, and simply listed all shades with individual catalogue numbers for each shade. Later, shades were listed as a,b,c etc numbers under a main number. I'm not sure when they changed, but my 1902 "Part 1" has them listed the old way.

Plates were added later (again, not sure exactly when), and just listed independently underneath the list of shades. Basically, they're two separate listings, with the intended implication is that any shade can occur on any plate.

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Re: 1865/1867 Great Britain SG103 & SG144 square format

Post by emason »

aerogi wrote:
19 Dec 2020 19:34
I have these two stamps in what seems like square format, not in the best condition though.

I wonder
1) how this was possible?
2) was it the whole sheet, or only a part of it?
3) does it give a premium, or a reduction on CV
Although the following link is about GB 6d stamps, you may find the section on 'emblems' and 'spray' watermarked paper answers your questions.

"Discussion on the GB QV 6d Surface Printed Issue stamps, 1856-1883"
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=84122
Best wishes,
Bill

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Re: Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Global Administrator »

emason wrote:
01 Nov 2020 04:55
I used avoid buying stamps with wing margins as I preferred them 'well centred'. But tastes change, and I now acually prefer them as there is a better chance of a complete cancel.

Here are couple of recent acquisitions.

Image

That Torquay is a corker!
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