Why are the wide on one side stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

User avatar
GlenStephens
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 22034
Joined: 06 Sep 2005 19:46
Location: Sunny Sydney .... well Castlecrag to be precise.
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by GlenStephens »

YIKES! Where are my scissors! :lol: :lol: :lol:
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
smauggie
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 77
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 04:46
Location: Saint Paul, MN, USA

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by smauggie »

Wing margins as such have no influence over my stamp purchasing decisions.

Try "Rowland Hill" . . . it gives your stamps wings!
World covers fanatic. Especially on the lookout for Canal Zone covers.

User avatar
nolimitsstamps
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 626
Joined: 10 May 2009 10:17
Location: Madison WI USA

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by nolimitsstamps »

This may be the King of the Wings, altho something else could be going on:

Image

User avatar
el-mue
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Feb 2012 03:51
Location: Neumuenster, Germany

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by el-mue »

Wing margins may rize their values very high. For a long time there had been printed a lot of information on it. Some infos you'll find very often some are very rare. In some cases you'll find different productions in printing (plateprinting/Plattendruck; cylinderprinting/Walzendruck - I hope it's the right translation).

Plateprinting by MiNo 924

Image

Unfortunately the top wing margin is non-perforated so its catalogue-worth is about 5,- € (the perforated wing margin costs 700,- € (Michel 2008)



Cylinderprinting by MiNo 924

Image

Its catalogue-worth ist 1.50 €. The wing margins produced by cyl.printing of this set are all times perforated.

In both productions the bottom wing margins are every time perforated, the side wing-margins normaly nonperforated.

The follwing scan shows you two 'equal' stamps one with the nonperforated and one with the perforated wing margin (MiNo 929).

Image

nonperforated: 1,- €
perforated: 10,- €

The prices are noted for the cheapest colours.

Best rgds.


El Mue
You can't pick up from the Life-Cake only the rosins.

User avatar
europhil
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2548
Joined: 21 May 2010 15:13
Location: Hendersonville, NC, USA
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by europhil »

These are not wing margins! Just plain margin copies.

User avatar
HalfpennyYellow
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 3537
Joined: 24 Dec 2011 07:00
Location: Malta

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by HalfpennyYellow »

I don't have anything against wing margins, in fact I quite like them. For GB stamps used in Malta, wing margins are quite common and they are MUCH cheaper. For Malta, the only stamp (well, stamps if you consider perfs, shades, watermarks, etc.) that exist with wing margins are the 1860-1877 printings (ptgs. 1-19) of the Halfpenny Yellow.

As for el-mue, europhil is right. Wing margins are margins attached to the stamp with no perforations. What you have are just marginal copies.
Collecting worldwide postage and revenue stamps - focusing on Malta, British Commonwealth and revenues in general

User avatar
huanga
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1585
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 08:58
Location: New Zealand

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by huanga »

Bringing this thread back to margins!! Personally I like then, however I have noticed that not all margins are equal. Here are six margins. Top row is one from Ceylon, and two from mauritius. All three have margins that are a greater width than the three bottom stamps of the Strait Settlements.

Image

Just a curious observation that I noticed.

Huanga.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

As someone who collects used U.K. and British Empire stamps almost exclusively, I adore Wing Margins and purchase lots on eBay specifically for them.

My reasoning:

As mentioned before...

1.) They are rarer than their wingless brethren and rarer still because so many collectors of old fouled them up. This means the wing margin copies are probably roughly as rare for their issues as the numerical Maltese Cross cancels.
2.) They show a significant facet of printing processes within Empire issues.

Add to this...

3.) They are the largest possible "boardwalk" margin you can find; dealers will tell you "boardwalk" U.S. stamps are worth more. How much more valuable to have what I'd call a "California boardwalk"!
4.) They are more likely to show a clear, complete cancel -- for obvious reasons.
5.) A rightward shift will ruin every stamp on the sheet from the issues with wing margins, except for the wing margins themselves. This means, if unaltered, they are consistently the best, most complete examples of their make from issues that are so notoriously poorly centered that Scott now grades many of them with designs touching perfs as VF.
6.) Those stamps in collections containing wing margins are more likely to be in better shape and genuine because the previous owners had the insight to keep their wing margins as-is and did whatever necessary to keep their slightly larger piece from going to pot.

All these points taken together are a good argument for why wing margins deserve their own variety listings in Scott and Gibbons with a premium markup. I, in fact, just preferred a wing with one clipped perf. for my collection to a perfectly sound stamp because the wing margin makes me feel less claustrophobic.

I also vote all those interested in British and colonial philately support the wing margins as some of the most valuable and worthwhile of their respective issues. After all, there are plenty of compelling, logical reasons for this and stamps have gone to price-book heaven for sillier reasons. For instance, consider the many premium inverted-watermark varieties in the series issued in the reign of Queen Victoria or the slight differences in the corner stars when plating Penny Blacks.

Too, consider the premiums for the chin knob (or lack thereof) of the various re-engraved vs. original-plate printings of the perf'd penny reds and the slight premium for "deep bluish" vs. "bluish" paper in the second imperf. series -- the difference of which I have seen with my own eyes, but only after buying more G.B. 3s than is financially practical. Indeed, consider the premiums for the occasional imperf. stamp in all issues, a state that is very easy for criminals to forge from well-margined stamps. And, at the end of the day, you will have to conclude that any feature of a piece that makes it less available than other pieces of its issue deserves pride of place with collectors and a price markup.

Of course, consider the source: I'm practically a wing margin enthusiast and have examples of these undervalued stamps from many issues, so naturally, I'd want my wing margins worth more. Still, even those who don't care for wings can't argue that they aren't rarer and that the law of supply and demand should not apply to all printing anomalies equally. What makes stamps valuable, after all, is scarcity, and what drives up scarcity is printing anomaly and/or destruction. The wing margins have experienced both.

Finally, to those who dislike wing margins because of the pre-printed album spaces, simply stop using hinges and get some mounts for Pete's sake. Yes, this is a bit more expensive, but hinging, even on used stamps, causes damage every time you leaf through your album. How can anyone still hinge and call himself a devoted collector? The only trouble with mounts is their effect on gum with unused material. If you're into postmarks like me, you have no excuse not to use them unless you enjoy having your perfs torn off every time you turn an album page.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

el-mue wrote: Unfortunately the top wing margin is non-perforated so its catalogue-worth is about 5,- € (the perforated wing margin costs 700,- € (Michel 2008)
I don't quite understand the logic here. Yes, these are definitely not WMDs ("Wing Margins of Destruction!" :-P ), but the pricing eludes me. The obvious fact is the error here is the sheet with the unperf'd selvage. That's a printer's screw-up and hence less common unless the printer could only be bothered to do his job for this Germany issue on a rare occasion. Consequently, the lack of perfs in the selvage is EFO, imo, as are WMs. Why anyone in the community would prefer material that is more common (i.e., properly printed without error or peculiarity) is beyond me. If we all stuck to the maxim less common = more valuable, as coin collectors do, we'd find out collections consistently growing in value. Instead, so many of us judge a stamp on subjective responses to it.

User avatar
europhil
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2548
Joined: 21 May 2010 15:13
Location: Hendersonville, NC, USA
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by europhil »

Just supply and demand. Flat plate printings most commonly have imperf top margins.
Perforated top margins ARE the exceptions.

Rotary press printing always have perforated top margins and these do not command a
premium. (Rotary press printings have "jubilee lines" top and bottom to protect the
printing plates.)

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

@Jay: No kidding. I've never heard that. Why would the printing process have so much to do with how far the perfs extend into the selvage?

User avatar
europhil
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2548
Joined: 21 May 2010 15:13
Location: Hendersonville, NC, USA
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by europhil »

Think about it. Flat plate sheets are perforated off the press in a separate operation.
In the case of most German issues of this period, that's comb perforation (3 sides of
the stamps), one row at a time.

Rotary press stamps are printed from a continuous roll of paper and are perforated
on press.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

Hunh. I always assumed flat-plate perforation was mechanized too. Anyhow, that still doesn't necessarily mean that it's easier to not perforate the gutter on a flat-plate sheet, at least not to my mind: If there are enough pins to punch out to the end of the selvage in one row in one operation, you'd think there would be enough pins to do the same for the uppermost row.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

What I mean is, if the comb has enough pins to manually punch a column, it must be longer than the horizontal rows it would punch as well, meaning that a line of perfs should run the horizontals on the flat-plates, not stop at the selvage all the way around. That's not what we see, however. What we see is typically one extra punch at the top of each column -- which is bizarre because it must mean:

A.) All plates are longer horizontally
B.) The perf man used two different combs to perf flat plate sheets
C.) The perf man punched each column twice and row once

I don't see B or C as even vaguely efficient, and A would presuppose issuing postal services didn't mind the added difficulty in separating the stamps from the selvage if the selvage is not perforated. And each of them had a different comb made specifically for the measurements of the specific plate they were using, which was always slightly wider, but relatively square.

I feel like I'm missing something, so please advise because it makes absolutely no sense to me. How can you evenly distribute vertical rectangles on a horizontal rectangle without unnecessarily wasted paper, and therefore expense, and how do you do that plus pay someone to manually punch the perfs. I always thought flat-plate was the cheaper process. I can't see how if it wastes stock and man-hours.

User avatar
europhil
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2548
Joined: 21 May 2010 15:13
Location: Hendersonville, NC, USA
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by europhil »

Do you even know what comb perforation is? A comb perforates THREE sides of
every stamp in a ROW (top, left and right). The comb then advances downward
one row at a time until the whole sheet is perforated. It therefore takes 11 strikes
of the machine to perforate a 10 row sheet. Generally a stack of multiple sheets
is perforated at the same time.

(Some countries use reverse combs or side combs to perforate their stamps, but
that's not the case here.)

So if you now understand the process, what would be the point of using an extra
operation of the machine to perforate the top margin?

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

I've got no background in printing -- never been inside a printing shop, never worked as a printer -- so I only really know what I've read in philatelic journals. And since I've never actually seen a comb perforation or seen a photograph, I've always pictured it as looking like its namesake. I've read plenty of articles mentioning it. I just naturally took for granted every time I read something about comb perforations that something called a "comb" would look like a comb, rather than what you describe -- which sounds more like a brush. :-P

Anyhow, the way it seemed according to your describing it earlier was the perforation process for flat plate was manual, rather than mechanized. Now, you seem to be saying it's mechanized, in which case I still don't see why it doesn't strike the entirety of the sheet. If a machine is doing it, does it matter if it perforates the selvage if it already has to make several passes to perforate the stamps? I'd assume anyone would say it doesn't; really, it just makes the stamps themselves that much more usable.

Anyhow, this whole discussion is enlightening. Thank you for setting me straight on the shape of a comb perforation. Aside from this, I like to apologize for getting us sidetracked into talking about the printing process for a few German stamps, when this thread is really about Great Britain and British possessions Wing Margins. I still believe there's something absurd about the entire scenario. Why perforate the stamps at all if you have to tear forcefully through selvage and possibly tear them to get to them? Why build a perf mechanism that doesn't fully perforate the sheet? What is more efficient about that, and how is it more efficient to have various perforation mechanisms of the same type but of differing shapes and with differing numbers of perforation pins?

Again, the presence of a perforation hole floating into the top margin of the sheet, but no such hole in the left margin means there must be a stray pin on the vertical, meaning the sheet must be horizontal, meaning we are talking about fitting several vertical rectangles (the stamps) into a horizontal rectangle (the original paper sheet). And that doesn't make sense. There will be extra waste because you can't fit as many vertical rectangles into a larger horizontal rectangle as you can smaller horizontal rectangles.

User avatar
europhil
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2548
Joined: 21 May 2010 15:13
Location: Hendersonville, NC, USA
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by europhil »

I agree. Let's get this thread back on track. If you want to pursue the perforation
topic, start a separate thread. Also, lots of info in the Intro to Scott. And remember
that Google is your friend.

Back when I still collected GB, whenever I was presented with a choice between
buying a normal stamp or a wing margin, I would always take the wing margin. I
might even buy a nice wing margin when I already had a normal copy.

In fact, anyone collecting QV surface printed issues needs to know how to tell that
a normal appearing stamp is actually a re-perforated wing margin copy. The trick
is to know where the pane gutters should be. On 4d and 8d stamps it's between the
F and G columns. On all other values, the gutters are between D-E and H-I.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

Thank you immensely for that! Up til now, I was using the straight edge of a perf. gauge to check if the perfs were exactly across from each other and checking the shape of the perf holes. Knowing where the gutters fall is much easier. I only have a copy of the Scott classics catalog and don't remember seeing anything about comb perfs or where the Wing Margin gutters fall in there.

BTW, why'd you stop collecting G.B.? I've been between that and France and U.S. awhile, but I always come back to G.B. Something about their stamps just catches my eye so much more than any other nations' stamps ever have.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

The only ones I don't particularly care for are the Bantams. Frigging things are an eyestrain and a half to plate.

User avatar
rsah6426
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 966
Joined: 30 Nov 2012 06:27
Location: Pune, India

Need help on a 9d QV GB stamp

Post by rsah6426 »

Can someone please help me with this blank space on the left side of this stamp ? It doesn't look like margin, because it should have been outside of the perforation. Or, is the stamp not centred properly inside the frame ?

Image

User avatar
vikingeck
PLATINUM Shooting Star *10,000* Posts!
PLATINUM Shooting Star  *10,000* Posts!
Posts: 14761
Joined: 15 Feb 2009 23:53
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Need help on a 9d QV GB stamp

Post by vikingeck »

These stamps were printed in panes with a white gutter between the panes . The perforation went down the centre of the gutter not down the edge of the stamp as was usual and occurs with the stamps within the pane group

The printed sheet of 240 stamps was made up of 12 panes of 20 stamps. Between each pane there was a ‘gutter’ and where the panes were side-by-side the gutter was perforated down the centre, giving the stamps at the side of the pane a wide (5mm) margin –

It is called a WING MARGIN .

Early collectors (VANDALS!) trimmed these off because the stamp did not fit the printed squares on an album page
whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

User avatar
MalayaCollector
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 30
Joined: 08 Jun 2014 02:46
Location: Darlington, Co Durham

Re: Need help on a 9d QV GB stamp

Post by MalayaCollector »

Many collectors including myself prefer wing margins as you often get a more complete cancel.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 65013
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Need help on a 9d QV GB stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

vikingeck wrote:

Early collectors (VANDALS!) trimmed these off
Still happens today. :)

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

Stinking vandals!

If there are any reading this, please send me a scan of the Wing Margin you are planning to ruin and I will swap with you in 1 for 1 a non-Wing of the same issue in comparable condition. I have a gazillion of the things lying around and would prefer that to WMD ("Wing Margin Destruction.")

User avatar
asmodeus
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3874
Joined: 22 May 2010 18:52
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by asmodeus »

I love wing margins!!!
Image
Truth is the daughter of time

User avatar
kushti
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 638
Joined: 08 Oct 2012 22:01
Location: Brighton, England

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by kushti »

The completist approach to the issue of wing margins. :D

Image

User avatar
Rod Perry
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Rod Perry »

There was a general dislike of wing margin stamps extending back to the nineteenth century.

The symmetry-obsessed Victorian era collectors usually shunned them.

Many wing margin stamps were reperforated to make them more palatable for the Victorian taste. Hearts would be broken if this truth was applied to inspection of the surface-printed section of many GB collections.

For my eye, wing margins add character, and I agree with the numerous comments above to the effect that the greater the surface area the better to receive the cancellation.

But don't expect our Graded stamp friends to agree with those of us who prefer wing-margined stamps. (Would a wing margin stamp grade as a 10? . . . not that much?)

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
fromdownunder
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 36282
Joined: 23 Apr 2007 15:25
Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by fromdownunder »

It is interesting to find that this thread still attracts attention nearly six years after its debut, and that most of the posts are from people who do like and accept Wing Margin stamps.

And yet... and yet... they still seem to bring considerably less in the market than their "standard" margin brothers and sisters (sorry for that, I have been admonished recently here for being sexist, by another Moderator no less )

So... data on relative prices, if anybody has any, would be interesting, comparing wing margin prices and "normal" stamps of the same type. Has anybody ever done a study and price comparison on this subject?

Norm
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain

User avatar
Rod Perry
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Rod Perry »

Price ought to be much the same, wing margin or "normal", Norm.

The greater concern, I suggest, is the huge number of former wing margin stamps which were (and probably still are) reperforated to make them more saleable, particularly in past, less enlightened philatelic eras.

Such altered, some would say adulterated stamps should fetch much less than "normals", and probably would if collectors were more diligent in what they buy to compulsively fill "gaps".

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
fromdownunder
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 36282
Joined: 23 Apr 2007 15:25
Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by fromdownunder »

Rod, early GB and probably many Empire stamps were identifiable by unique lettering and/or identifiable plate positions (thanks to dedicated collectors), so for somebody dedicated to the task it is quite possible that somebody has actually done a study on comparative values.

My thoughts are not about Wing Margins that have been "improved" but about comparable prices between existing full wing margins and the non wing margins which lived next door.

If nobody has done such a study, no biggie. For me, it is purely of academic interest.

Norm
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain

User avatar
Allanswood
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 16481
Joined: 02 Dec 2009 11:59
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Allanswood »

I would imagine that a plate collector would be one of the few who would really appreciate the edge wing margins to make his reconstruction realistic.

Other than that, I doubt 99% of those that collect even have a clue that the stamp has been modified to fit their album spaces.

Once they do realise, they then probably put it in the "well I have the stamp anyway..." and move on.

If they really wanted to highlight the value of a wing margin, then SG themselves should change the catalogue listing to suit a premium for an unaltered example - perhaps 50-100% higher due to being the correct issued example and current rarity.
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

Allanswood wrote:I would imagine that a plate collector would be one of the few who would really appreciate the edge wing margins to make his reconstruction realistic.

Other than that, I doubt 99% of those that collect even have a clue that the stamp has been modified to fit their album spaces.

Once they do realise, they then probably put it in the "well I have the stamp anyway..." and move on.

If they really wanted to highlight the value of a wing margin, then SG themselves should change the catalogue listing to suit a premium for an unaltered example - perhaps 50-100% higher due to being the correct issued example and current rarity.
Totally agree with this, and on S.G.'s site, they seem to acknowledge that wing margins aren't bad in the least; they even state explicitly that they value them on par with their non-wing brethren:

S.G. on Wing Margin Pricing

In fact, S.G. acknowledges that wings are scarcer than their non-winged brethren and doubly so because of the mangling that took place in philately's early days. Since it would, undoubtedly, be impossible to do a full census on all the wings that were re-perfed, there's no way of knowing how many were destroyed in this way. But, certainly, as the vogue of philately past was to prefer stamps with clipped wings, we can assume a majority of wing margin stamps were damaged in this way. And, obviously, the one thing you know for sure about a wing is that it's more likely genuine. Why, after all, would the great forgers of the past have bothered making them if, in the past, they were viewed as undesirable? Simply put, they wouldn't. Nor can you add a wing; you can only take one away. So if the paper's right and the wmk.'s there, you can be 99% sure a wing is genuine with little further investigation.

Indeed, I view unmangled wings as on-par with never-hinged because, like the early collector with the foresight not to hinge an unused stamp, the early collector who did not clip his or her wings was likely few and far between. Perhaps, then, the only reason people still shy away from wings is simple stupid tradition. But that's fine with me because, after all, wings are the truer rarities and people are willing to part with them, many with perfect centering plus CDSes, for 5-10% of book value. Now, tell me, how rare is an unmangled wing with vf centering and a clear CDS? My money says pretty darned rare, comparatively.

So the haters can keep their center-sheet Victorians. I want my wings. I've got about 75% of the Classics section of my G.B. album (1840 to present) filled, and if I could have every issue with wings, I absolutely would, but alas, most issues didn't have wings. Well, anyhow, I think we should get the word out about their rarity to our fellow collectors and inform them of how wrong-headed following tradition is. All we're dealing with, after all, is a perception of desirability. It would be tantamount to people eschewing the first printings of the Penny Black because they want perfectly etched suns in their corners. Absolutely ridiculous.

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

asmodeus wrote:I love wing margins!!!
Image
And this is amazing. You lucky so-and-so! I'm jealous. I've got to scan in some business stuff tomorrow, so I'll try to remember to scan in a few of mine. Still, I'm totally jealous. This one is excellent in the extreme!

User avatar
PhillAlliLately
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 39
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 08:22
Location: Caledonia, WI, U.S.A.

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by PhillAlliLately »

We should form a wing-study club or something. Or is there such a thing already? I didn't notice one in the list of APS affiliates. Then again, I'm probably one of the few Yankees who's obsessed with G.B. material. Just scored an awesome, stampless 1860 steamship cover from London to New York by way of Liverpool and a nice little 1920s post card from London to Altoona, PA, with a picture of the Eton quad on it.

User avatar
EricBismarck
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
Posts: 313
Joined: 06 Nov 2013 00:40
Location: Bismarck, ND USA

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by EricBismarck »

Was sorting through my Ceylon pile and found my first Wing Margin stamp (4c Grey, CC Watermark 1872).

Quality isn't great at all, but I'll keep it since it is the only one I have so far:

Image
My Worldwide Collection Website: http://www.eworldstamps.com/

User avatar
GlenStephens
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 22034
Joined: 06 Sep 2005 19:46
Location: Sunny Sydney .... well Castlecrag to be precise.
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by GlenStephens »

asmodeus wrote:
I love wing margins!!!


Image
Have to agree .. looks very pretty. :)
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
rsah6426
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 966
Joined: 30 Nov 2012 06:27
Location: Pune, India

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by rsah6426 »

Cape of Good Hope stamp with wing margins...

Image

User avatar
Parisboy
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 630
Joined: 26 Nov 2013 00:40
Location: Paris, France

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Parisboy »

I love wing margins, I find them aesthetically pleasing. I like to try and get left and right margin examples to complement a "normal" stamp.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 65013
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote:
But don't expect our Graded stamp friends to agree with those of us who prefer wing-margined stamps. (Would a wing margin stamp grade as a 10? . . . not that much?)

Rod
Yes, I'd like to hear what exactly Caj grades this one as. :)
Image
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
vikingeck
PLATINUM Shooting Star *10,000* Posts!
PLATINUM Shooting Star  *10,000* Posts!
Posts: 14761
Joined: 15 Feb 2009 23:53
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by vikingeck »

as illustrated by the "ENNISKILLEN" example, on a normal sized stamp it is about the only way to get an absolutely 100% cancel to fit .
whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

User avatar
Brit-Col
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1963
Joined: 01 Nov 2012 17:48
Location: North Texas, USA

Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose : any extra value?

Post by Brit-Col »

Hello all,

I came across the below stamp with an interesting misperforation. It has the Spray of Rose watermark. I make it out to be Scott 61, SG 103. The only problem is it is clearly Plate 11 but SG does not mention a Plate 11 for 103 (unless that is the default).

Image
Scott 61, Stanley Gibbons 103

I've been unable to find anything via Google so I'm hoping one of the many experts on here will respond with the value the misperf adds to the basic stamp (if any).

Thanks in advance.

BC
Good judgment is gained from experience. Experience is gained from poor judgment.

User avatar
Allanswood
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 16481
Joined: 02 Dec 2009 11:59
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by Allanswood »

Isn't that just a wing margin stamp?
Common on many older GB issues.
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

User avatar
DK
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 1638
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 12:50

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by DK »

Brit-Col wrote:Hello all,

I came across the below stamp with an interesting misperforation. It has the Spray of Rose watermark. I make it out to be Scott 61, SG 103. The only problem is it is clearly Plate 11 but SG does not mention a Plate 11 for 103 (unless that is the default).

Scott 61, Stanley Gibbons 103

I've been unable to find anything via Google so I'm hoping one of the many experts on here will respond with the value the misperf adds to the basic stamp (if any).

Thanks in advance.

BC
It has colored check letters not white : therefore it is SG143 not SG103.

SG 103 used plates 4 - 10

SG 143 used plates 11 - 20

I do not see any mis-perforation that you describe. It does have a wing margin which is perfectly normal for the surface printed issues due to the composition of the sheets.

Dave.

User avatar
pmc
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 2341
Joined: 24 Jun 2013 16:44
Location: Japan

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by pmc »

I see others have already answered, but instead of deleting what I wrote, I'll just add this prefix!

This stamp, given its right corner letter "I" sat on the sheet to the right of a gutter that separated the pane in the larger sheet. The sheet was perforated down the center of that gutter giving rise to the "wing".
Regards Peter - Twitter: Peter@stampden

User avatar
DK
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 1638
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 12:50

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by DK »

pmc wrote:This stamp, given its right corner letter "I" sat on the sheet to the right of a gutter that separated the pane in the larger sheet. The sheet was perforated down the center of that gutter giving rise to the "wing".
Like this :
Image

Dave

User avatar
Brit-Col
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1963
Joined: 01 Nov 2012 17:48
Location: North Texas, USA

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by Brit-Col »

Almost every time I visit Stampboards I learn something new.

Thanks so much for the informative replies!

(GB is not my specialty.)

BC
Good judgment is gained from experience. Experience is gained from poor judgment.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 65013
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Why are stamp Wing Margins so Unloved?

Post by Global Administrator »

And of course NOT just UK stamps had wing margins -
Image
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
pmc
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 2341
Joined: 24 Jun 2013 16:44
Location: Japan

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by pmc »

Brit-Col wrote:(GB is not my specialty.)

BC
Selectively quoting from a website on the identification of reperforated British wing margin stamps, here are some rules regarding margins on the stamps that used corner letters...

"All of the surface printed issues that featured any of the Garter watermarks, the Emblems watermark or Spray watermark were printed in panes featuring the extra wide wing margin stamps...

- For stamps printed on paper with the Emblems or Spray Watermark identify the letter in the bottom right corner. If it is D, E, H or I then it should possess a wing margin.

- For stamps printed on paper with any of the Garter watermarks then the letters F or G in the bottom right corner should have wing margins.
"
Regards Peter - Twitter: Peter@stampden

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 65013
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by Global Administrator »

DK wrote:
pmc wrote:This stamp, given its right corner letter "I" sat on the sheet to the right of a gutter that separated the pane in the larger sheet. The sheet was perforated down the center of that gutter giving rise to the "wing".
Like this :
Image

Dave
Very pretty. :)
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
satsuma
I was online for Post Number 7 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 7 MILLION!
Posts: 3786
Joined: 26 Dec 2015 13:52
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Misperfed Great Britain 1873 3d rose: any add'l value?

Post by satsuma »

pmc wrote:This stamp, given its right corner letter "I" sat on the sheet to the right of a gutter that separated the pane in the larger sheet. The sheet was perforated down the center of that gutter giving rise to the "wing".
Like this :
Image


The logic of producing stamps/sheets like this escapes me.

These have been comb perforated so why not make the comb the size you need rather than space three of the bays a fixed distance apart and have the fourth bay enlarged?

Presumably the left hand pane was perforated by the same comb stroke so it would seem a simple matter to have nine bays to the comb, the four from each end the same and a narrow one to define the gutter.


I can understand the utility of saving one operation if the stamps were line perforated but they are not.

Post Reply

Return to “You ask the questions - SOMEONE will have the answers!”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests