Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1d KGVI ''fabricated'' joined pair?

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GreyWarbler
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Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1d KGVI ''fabricated'' joined pair?

Post by GreyWarbler »

.
I picked this 'pair' up recently for under 10 dollars as a curiosity.

Separately these stamps have a Catalogue price of $13.00 each UHM so I'm curious as to what is being hidden here and why.

The stamp on the left has been pasted on to the right hand stamp and some glue extends out to the right hand red line....The bottom perfs obviously are completely different as are the top.


Gibraltar back.jpg

From the front even a cursory glance will show the the top perfs do not line up

Gibraltar Closeup.jpg

So the question remains as to what was to be gained by this obviously clumsy attempt to create a pair of relatively inexpensive stamps?

Gibraltar Front.jpg

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by Number-O-Ne »

And they also ruined one stamp trying to do it...

The only reason I can think of: that stamp was already defective, maybe thin, and someone thought of a creative way to "recycle".

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by Allanswood »

Almost looks like a hand held office machine dispenser coil.
That's how rolls were usually created - separate sheets into strips and attach them together using the sheet selvedge.

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by Number-O-Ne »

Allanswood wrote:
13 Sep 2021 10:49
Almost looks like a hand held office machine dispenser coil.
That's how rolls were usually created - separate sheets into strips and attach them together using the sheet selvedge.

That makes it interesting, I think. Knowing close to nothing about British Commonwealth, I would be interested in learning. Is there is a way to tell the difference between an original hand-crafted dispenser coil and a more recent "production"?

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by GreyWarbler »

Allanswood wrote:
13 Sep 2021 10:49
Almost looks like a hand held office machine dispenser coil.
That's how rolls were usually created - separate sheets into strips and attach them together using the sheet selvedge.

Actually that seems to make more sense as holding the join up to a strong light there don't appear to be any obvious flaws or thins under the selvedge and the glue to the edge of the selvedge has not been deliberately masked or hidden.

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by David Smitham »

It may be worth your while contacting the specialist Gibraltar Study Circle? One of their more knowledgeable members may be able to help you with this.

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by ViccyVFU »

David Smitham wrote:
13 Sep 2021 19:28
It may be worth your while contacting the specialist Gibraltar Study Circle? One of their more knowledgeable members may be able to help you with this.

David.
Or maybe just look in an SG part 1?

img587.jpg
Short excerpt from SG Part 1 C&BE

Looks like the right stamp has had a bit of "scissor rage" !!
.

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by Global Administrator »

Number-O-Ne wrote:
13 Sep 2021 11:10

Knowing close to nothing about British Commonwealth, I would be interested in learning. Is there is a way to tell the difference between an original hand-crafted dispenser coil and a more recent "production"?

Not really. :)

Even the ACSC does not price these or the 1d red Roos.
Lakatoi 4 wrote:
19 Oct 2013 22:32
There is just a footnote (No. 13 on page 2/22 off the 2013 Kangaroo ACSC) for the ½d. Roo which states "The stamp was also issued in coil form but although coil joins of undoubted authenticity exist, there is no means of positively establishing this".

Seems exceptionally vague, does anyone have any more info. on this :?:
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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by Global Administrator »

ViccyVFU wrote:
13 Sep 2021 21:17

Looks like the right stamp has had a bit of "scissor rage" !!

It is actually the single thing that proves the pair is genuine. :lol:

PO prepared them here by guillotining down licked together long strips etc, and likely the same technique in Gibraltar. Looks like a dead straight line top and base to me.
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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by ViccyVFU »

Global Administrator wrote:
13 Sep 2021 21:33
Looks like a dead straight line top and base to me.

Hmm, still looks scissor cut, to me.

Gibraltar_Front_lines_.jpg
OP picture, with added straight lines (in yellow).

The point being that whether its scissor OR guillotine cut, I can perform both of those actions on my desk today, and no one could age it.

(Absolutely a possibility that someone created it later, to uplift the stamp on the right, with defective perfs).

However, its an interesting curio (which would write up well),
.... but no one should pay a premium "for something that is so easily replicated".

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1d KGVI ''fabricated'' joined pair?

Post by W5LDY »

.
Definitely a coil join pair.

Nobody has been messing around with this.

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1d KGVI ''fabricated'' joined pair?

Post by KGVIStamps »

I also believe it is a coil-join.

Here is my list of the various KGVI coil-joins from Gibraltar. I posted the SG numbers, but they do not list coil-joins other than as a reference.

1/2d Deep Green - vertical - coil join pair - SG 121
1d Chestnut-Brown -watermark sideways - vertical - coil join pair Perf 13.5 - SG 122ab
1d Chestnut-Brown - watermark sideways - horizontal - coil join pair Perf 13.5 - SG 122ab
2d Grey - vertical - coil join pair Perf 14 - SG 124
2d Grey - vertical - coil join pair Perf 13.5 - SG 124a
2d Grey - horizontal - coil join pair Perf 14 - SG 124
2d Grey - horizontal - coil join pair Perf 13.5 - SG 124a
2d Carmine - horizontal - coil join pair - SG 124c

I am still looking for a few of these; but I have the one you displayed. Feel free to contact me if you have any of these or other KGVI coil-joins for sale.
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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by gavin-h »

ViccyVFU wrote:
13 Sep 2021 22:26

The point being that whether its scissor OR guillotine cut, I can perform both of those actions on my desk today, and no one could age it.
.
You certainly could, so to go all Sherlock Holmes on you: Why would you?

To do it at home would be almost motiveless and a sign of a very strange mind to wake up one morning and think "I know, I'll just trim that pair of joined stamps with my scissors". Nothing to gain by doing it and nothing to lose either except a little bit of time and a little bit of your remaining sanity!

But for a Postmaster or clerk to do it is a different matter entirely. We know the strips of stamps were made manually for use as coils in vending machines. We know how sensitive those mechanical machines were, so if the joined pair were not joined absolutely straight, it would be sensible, logical and necessary to trim to fit, preventing jams or blockages in the machine, preventing customer dissatisfaction if it happened and a small investment in office time to save wasted office time later in rectifying the avoidable fault.

The third possibility is to defraud collectors. As has been said, creating these coil pairs is a simple matter and proving when and by whom is, indeed very difficult. But, would a "forger" go to the bother of trimming them? I think they'd more likely leave them uneven in the hope nobody would notice.

Weighing up the evidence, the Postmaster / clerk scenario is the elementary answer! :mrgreen:

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1 penny fabricated pair

Post by ViccyVFU »

gavin-h wrote:
14 Sep 2021 01:00
You certainly could, so to go all Sherlock Holmes on you: Why would you?
Well, I wouldn't, but "the clue to why someone might" is the last point of the previous post.
KGVIStamps wrote:
14 Sep 2021 00:38
I am still looking for a few of these; but I have the one you displayed.
Feel free to contact me if you have any of these or other KGVI coil-joins for sale.
Someone who wanted to shift "One, and a defective" might think about it.

We are not really debating whether this is a manual join, just "who did it, and when".

The right hand stamp looks a lot darker printed, to me, so they are probably not from the same sheet.
Not guillotined.

(None of this individually significant, but cumulatively, it moves the balance of probabilities for me).

But if two of you think they look kosher, then that's fine for me, as I'm not buying them.
.

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1d KGVI ''fabricated'' joined pair?

Post by GreyWarbler »

I think the SG explanation is probably the closest to the truth.
As I mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any effort to 'cover up' either the join, wildly different perfs or the overlapping glue. I think the simple answer is the correct one. No Fraud just a simple botched coil construction.

Thanks everyone for your comments. :D

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Re: Gibraltar 1938 SG 122ab 1d KGVI ''fabricated'' joined pair?

Post by iaincraven »

Don't understand why there is the slightest suspicion here :lol:

It’s a very typical coil join and I don't think there would be much premium over two single stamps.

Here's a QEII 2d pair showing how clumsy the join and perfs can be on coil stamps.

GibraltarO259a.jpg
GibraltarO259b.jpg

Incidentally the requirement for coil stamps is one of the reasons the 1922 Irish Provisional Government overprints are so complicated. Neither Dollard or Thom had experience / equipment for making up coils so the work was given to Harrison who did their own overprinting.

IrelandP79a.jpg
IrelandP79b.jpg
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