Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

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Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

This GB reply card was sent to from Nottingham to Nairobi, Kenya with a request to return it:

Reply card Kenya small (2).jpg

So far, so routine. However, when it was sent back to Nottingham, the stamp was refused as invalid and a surcharge raised:

Reply card Kenya small (1).jpg

Since the whole point of reply cards was that the foreign stamp was valid in the country they were sent to for replying to the country of origin, this is rather odd, especially as the message on the return half is datelined "Nairobi". The natural assumption is that somebody forgot to post it until they had carried it over a border, and an officious official spotted this and raised a surcharge.

Unfortunately, there are no named postmarks on the card to say where it was posted from on the return. The boxed "STAMP NOT VALID WHERE POSTED" mark is a GB one, but the two circular Taxe marks are presumably from the country it was posted in. Does anyone recognise their origin?

(The other possibility that springs to mind is that the Kenyan post office objected to the joined card being returned and decided to treat it as an ordinary card for which the stamp would not be valid, but that seems technical -- joined reply cards seem generally to have been returned without problems, possibly because so few were sent that the post offices were not familiar with the details of the rules anyway!)

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by polisciguy2011 »

Not sure how helpful this would be, but a few minutes of googling took me to this monograph on African postal history, which indicates that the T and centimes marking were tax markings used in Zanzibar but which were sometimes applied if the cover transited through Nairobi?
--Zach

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

polisciguy2011 wrote:
26 Sep 2021 09:01
Not sure how helpful this would be, but a few minutes of googling took me to this monograph on African postal history, which indicates that the T and centimes marking were tax markings used in Zanzibar but which were sometimes applied if the cover transited through Nairobi?
Thank Zach, but I didn't see where in the monograph that was stated?

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by polisciguy2011 »

May have read too much into this section, on page 30 of the PDF, but the cover in question was posted from Nairobi to Zanzibar, whereas some of the others mentioned in there were going in the reverse direction:


Screen Shot 2021-09-25 at 6.29.52 PM.png
--Zach

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

I don't think that section really applies -- it's a different type of mark (hexagonal not circular) and a few decades earlier?

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by Global Administrator »

.
I doubt a UK stamp or PS item was valid outside the UK for normal and valid use in QE2 era?

Certainly if posted back from here nothing would not be valid in that category is my guess - or anywhere else in the Commonwealth at this QE2 era time, back to UK. "Stamp Not Valid Where Posted" handstamp bears this out.

Be like affixing a GB stamp here in 1965 - nothing to do with Australia, no income came to Australia for it, and as totally illegal as affixing a Russian one, except in the very narrow exceptions of Active Service Troop mail etc from approved overseas areas using GB stamps, and this clearly was not.

And mailing back 2 postcards in essence doubled the tax hopefully - these were designed to be severed upon arrival, not mailed back joined together. Sender makes that clear in the note, but Mr. Tunstall cheerfully ignored that!
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by norvic »

The whole point about REPLY-PAID postcards was that, under UPU regulations, they WERE valid from ANY signatory country for postage at surface rates back to the country of origin.

It would be normal but not obligatory for the outward half to be detached and retained by the recipient.

The very fact that they were ISSUED in the QE era means that they WERE valid not only in any commonwealth country but also foreign countries and thousands of collectors can attest to this.

Here’s one from the Machin thread:
E7743828-895E-483D-A1FC-CED0DF3DE606.jpeg
norvic wrote:
17 Apr 2020 20:29
8049home wrote:Hello

I have a 4D reply card with a Machin indicia from 1968.

Can anybody tell me, what usage the card was issued for in 1968?

Any help is welcome.
It's the inland 2nd class letter/postcard rate. It is the reply half of a reply-paid postcard which is valid for the inland rate. The overseas surface rate was 5d, so both parts of the card would have had an additional 1d if posted in 1968 when that rate started.

But this was posted in 1971, probably just before the currency change, judging by the arrival mark.

I can't find my conversion booklet, so I cant tell what rate should have applied. It seems that the card possibly arrived in St Helena on February 15 1971 (which was the day the currency changed here and there), and was reposted on March 5th.

It arrived in London on 4 April 1971 and was surcharged in Brighton on 6 April prior to delivery. I suspect it was surcharged as if it was an inland card.
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by norvic »

You could even use adhesives on a blank/form privately printed card if the conditions were met.
maptrekker wrote:
04 Jul 2010 09:34
UK Machin postmarked at Rennie's Mill Village, Hong Kong. This was the area settled by some of Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang soldiers after their rout from the mainland.

Image
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

Yes, I did mention that in the original post ... admittedly by the QEII era practically nobody except philatelists used reply cards (probably why they were scrapped!), so I suppose it's possible that the clerks simply weren't familiar enough with them and got it wrong.

Commercially used GB reply cards from the 1960s (with subject matter nothing to do with philately) are genuinely rare -- the few I have are either stamped to order cards or using adhesives.

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by Global Administrator »

norvic wrote:
26 Sep 2021 17:52
The whole point about REPLY-PAID postcards was that, under UPU regulations, they WERE valid from ANY signatory country for postage at surface rates back to the country of origin.

So why is your example ALSO taxed on arrival?


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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by norvic »

Global Administrator wrote:
26 Sep 2021 21:23
norvic wrote:
26 Sep 2021 17:52
The whole point about REPLY-PAID postcards was that, under UPU regulations, they WERE valid from ANY signatory country for postage at surface rates back to the country of origin.

So why is your example ALSO taxed on arrival?

Can you show us an example of one NOT taxed from outside the UK?
.
That is explained in the post, in the quoted part if you read it all.
It seems that the card possibly arrived in St Helena on February 15 1971 (which was the day the currency changed here and there), and was reposted on March 5th.

It arrived in London on 4 April 1971* and was surcharged in Brighton on 6 April prior to delivery. I suspect it was surcharged as if it was an inland card.
* I suppose i should have added here, that postage rates increased on 15 February but in the original thread everybody knows.
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

Here are three examples, cards used back from Tunisia, Morocco, and occupied Gaza:

QEII reply card 1961 from Djerba (small).jpg

QEII reply card 1968 from Marrakech (small).jpg

QEII reply card 1968 from Gaza (small).jpg

All old rate cards with additional adhesive stamps to make them up to the current rate, incidentally -- note that the adhesives were accepted and cancelled as well without problems.

The first two are I suppose semi-commercial as they were sent by tourists with touristy messages, although the text does imply that the recipient had asked them to get the cards stamped in various places. I see that the sender of the card to Gaza was careful to note that "This is in order under UPU rules!".

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by ViccyVFU »


Can you consider "a purely speculative set of dots" ? ......

Kenya became independent in 1963, with new stamps featuring the president (etc ...)

Prior to 1963, EIIR, (in "wilding like" imagery), was on their stamps.

They joined the UPU in October 1964 .... (That's later than all the bordering countries)

The UPU account in Gold centimes, so its likely an official rubber stamp

Now, we could speculate whether it was sent as a postcard, or a letter, as they would have attracted different rates, (but, as seen elsewhere, that seems to be a red herring). Its clear they did not follow the clearly printed instructions on the card.

However, is it not more likely that :
A postal clerk thought Elizabeth stamps had been discontinued, in favour of the new independent ones?
(Failing to notice the Great Britain emblazonment in the header?)

They may not have seen that many international reply cards from GB "six months into the new UPU arrangements".


Of course, Kenya was also in a bit of a chaos at that time, with a civil war / insurgence on their western borders (see : "SHIFTA war"). The Crown supported the government, but their will have been some anti Royal feeling present.

I suspect it was simply "a clerical error".

Good luck in your investigations.


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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

ViccyVFU wrote:
27 Sep 2021 03:12
I suspect it was simply "a clerical error".
Very possibly, but if the taxe marks are identifiable that would help to settle the question ...

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T / GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by sattvfan »

Might it be because international rate had gone up to 3d,in 1965 UK issued a 3d reply paid postalcard,when did rates chane I have no data.
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by Bruny 7250 »

mozzerb wrote:
26 Sep 2021 08:25
This GB reply card was sent to from Nottingham to Nairobi, Kenya with a request to return it:


Image


So far, so routine. However, when it was sent back to Nottingham, the stamp was refused as invalid and a surcharge raised:


Image


Since the whole point of reply cards was that the foreign stamp was valid in the country they were sent to for replying to the country of origin, this is rather odd, especially as the message on the return half is datelined "Nairobi". The natural assumption is that somebody forgot to post it until they had carried it over a border, and an officious official spotted this and raised a surcharge.

Unfortunately, there are no named postmarks on the card to say where it was posted from on the return. The boxed "STAMP NOT VALID WHERE POSTED" mark is a GB one, but the two circular Taxe marks are presumably from the country it was posted in. Does anyone recognise their origin?

(The other possibility that springs to mind is that the Kenyan post office objected to the joined card being returned and decided to treat it as an ordinary card for which the stamp would not be valid, but that seems technical -- joined reply cards seem generally to have been returned without problems, possibly because so few were sent that the post offices were not familiar with the details of the rules anyway!)
The logical answer is Nairobi, isn't it? Weren't tax markings put on at the start and the money collected at delivery?

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

Bruny 7250 wrote:
11 Oct 2021 19:43
The logical answer is Nairobi, isn't it? Weren't tax markings put on at the start and the money collected at delivery?
That was the idea, yes. The curiosity is why it was surcharged at all.

It does appear to be a Kenyan mark, though.

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by norvic »

Bruny 7250 wrote:
11 Oct 2021 19:43

The logical answer is Nairobi, isn't it? Weren't tax markings put on at the start and the money collected at delivery?
But the stamp was not invalid.
sattvfan wrote:Might it be because international rate had gone up to 3d,in 1965 UK issued a 3d reply paid postalcard,when did rates change I have no data.
Mariano
The rate increased on 17 May, so 6 days after it was posted (I think?). Almost certainly the surface-rate card would have arrived in Nairobi after that date and been returned somewhat later. So if anything it was ½d short. It still wasn't invalid but the rate change is a possible explanation and the mark would then have been applied in London. [Does ½d, or 2x½d equate to 1½ Gold Centimes?]

Collect British Postmarks lists the following.

Inland section: Stamp Disallowed/By Office of Posting/M.P.I.S./To Pay Mount Pleasant Inland Section}

Foreign Section: Stamps not valid F.S. , boxed.

Used nationwide: Stamp Invalid (unframed)

None of these is pictured in the book, and there is no certainty that the listing is complete.
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by nigelc »

norvic wrote:
13 Oct 2021 02:09
Does ½d, or 2x½d equate to 1½ Gold Centimes?
I believe at this point (i.e. from 1st October 1950 onwards) 1d = 5 gold centimes.
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by ViccyVFU »

So, a new set of dots for you....

Eric Scherer has a presentation filed with the RPSL, in the standing displays section of their website, on the topic of reply paid postcards (SD2019_01).

I can't link to it, as its behind a firewall, (and I'm not at a device where I can screenshot).

However, slide 53 does cite a UPU regulation that "if the item is not fully prepaid from country of origin, any part payment may be disregarded, in calculation of the postage due".

Hence, due to the rate increase, the 2½d stamp can be disregarded,
.... giving rise to a charge of 20 gold centimes (or 4d, per the exchange rate.... which I'd guess is the rate for a surface letter (Both parts still being attached).

Inland have raised the charge because of the "invalid" markings..... but credited them the 2½d pre-paid, giving a balance of 1½d to pay.

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by ViccyVFU »


Here's some of the earlier detail I couldn't get to ....

kenya.jpg
Kenya Taxe Mark (for the standard 5 centimes = 1 penny)

(Thats the standard one. Yours is probably the "insert value here" one!!)


Excerpt from Eric Scherer's RPSL Static Display on Prepaid Reply Cards
page_53.jpg
Page 53 - Insufficiently Prepaid Reply Cards

You might be able to access it directly, here ....

https://www.rpsl.org.uk/rpsl/StandingDisplays/SD2019-01_Eric ... .html#p=52


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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by norvic »

WELL... that is a revelation. Well done and thank you!
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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

Hm ... that does look like what they Kenyan PO might have had in mind, except that the current 1957 UPU convention says:
ARTICLE 52
Prepayment of postage
...
2. Unpaid or underpaid items other than letters and single postcards are not forwarded, nor are reply-paid postcards of which the two halves are not fully prepaid at the time of posting.

...

ARTICLE 53
Methods of denoting payment of postage
...
3. The following are considered as duly paid: reply postcards bearing postage stamps, printed or affixed, of the Country of issue ...

...

[Specific regulations]
ARTICLE 132
Reply-paid postcards
1. Reply-paid postcards shall bear in French on the front of the first half the heading "Carte postale avec reponse payie " [Reply-paid postcard]; on the second half "Carte postale-reponse " [Reply postcard]. Each of the two halves shall, moreover, satisfy the other conditions laid down for a single postcard; the two are folded one on -the other so that the fold forms ,the -upper edge, and they must not 'be closed in any way.

2. The address of the reply postcard shall be on (the inside of the item.

3. The sender is permitted to show his name and address on the front of the reply half.

4. The sender is also authorised to have printed on the back of the reply postcard a questionnaire to be filled up by the addressee; the latter may in addition return the " Question" half attached to the "Answer" half. In that case the address on 'the "Question" card shall be struck through and shall be on the inside of the item.

5. The prepayment of postage on the reply half by means of postage stamps of ,the Country which issued the card is valid only if the reply half is addressed to that Country. If this condition is not fulfilled, it is treated as an unpaid postcard.
From article 52.2 -- "are not forwarded, nor are reply-paid postcards of which the two halves are not fully prepaid at the time of posting" -- it looks as if it should have been treated as OK, as when it was originally posted, the rate was 2½d.

Article 53.3 seems to imply that a stamped reply card addressed to the country of origin was to be considered automatically valid, presumably because that country shouldn't have forwarded it in the first place if it was underpaid.

Nothing in article 132 (the specific reply card article) about underpaid cards.

The "1½" in the GB mark would normally be GB pence, not gold centimes, which makes it look as though the charge was the 4d letter rate minus the 2½d -- except that it should have been doubled ... So I'm not sure any of the postal staff involved understood what they were supposed to do either!
Last edited by mozzerb on 14 Oct 2021 01:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by mozzerb »

duplicate post

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by RevRed+ »



Here is an 1971 American one, addressed to Australia. It wasn't posted back.

1971 "Return Postage Guaranteed" USA card, addressed to Australia.
1971 "Return Postage Guaranteed" USA card, addressed to Australia.


Inside of the card Pt.1
Inside of the card Pt.1


Inside of the card Pt.2
Inside of the card Pt.2

Red.

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Re: Where was this 1965 circular "T/GOLD CENTIMES" taxe mark used?

Post by norvic »

That’s not really the same thing Red.

Reply paid postal stationery has adhesive or printed stamps.

This would certainly be used in the US but the sender would be charged postage plus the business reply fee. The advantage for businesses is that there is no upfront payment for the return half which may not be used.
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