FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

Lots of issues raised there. (Can you post a link to the 1c Deed?).
ViccyVFU wrote:... That "the custodian (that's SG) goes into liquidation".
If something happened to SG, and assuming the "shares" were fully subscribed, then ownership of the 1c does not revert to Phoenix? Their involvement has ended. Then there is an unholy tug-of-war between the 1c "shareholders" about what to do next.
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Before they even arrive at that point, will Phoenix actually sell 50,000 x £160 "shares" = £8M. ?? This is speculative of course and time will tell but it is a lot to raise.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by ViccyVFU »

MJ's pet wrote:
14 Sep 2021 10:57
Can you post a link to the 1c Deed?

Sure. All their "charges" (There are currently 28 in their history, of which 5 are unsatisfied and one partially satisfied) can be found here :


https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00348043/charges


You are specifically requesting the latest one, number 28


https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/c ... tsM2UOjoUk


To put the offer proposal to punters, they need Phoenix approval.

If the offer was undersubscribed (n.b. depending on "the offer made"), they could accept a lower sum, but again that requires Phoenix approval.

Remittance to Phoenix of that lower sum would satisfy the loan in full, thus satisfy the charge.

Watch carefully (in any offer document) whether the subscriptions are "escrowed" (i.e. held by a third party, to ensure integrity of transaction), because if SG are holding them in their own name.... then (just like "all those Part 1 prepayments"), if they went bust, those funds would all be lost to punters, and the stamp would revert to Phoenix.

"Phoenix get the agreed proceeds (including any profit element, per formula), or the stamp".
From their perspective, they are covered.

Punters, however, run all the risks (just like SG Guernsey).

(I say "all the risks", but logically, they are kissing goodbye to their money either way... more "a theoretical loss"!! :mrgreen: )
.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

4) Disposal / Sale Process
However it is disposed of, I think its fair to assume that 30% commissions are going to be payable. I'm sure Sothebys would like to handle it again (thereby taking a cumulative $8M out of a stamp that's only worth $5M), but auctions are so final, so owners of the share would need consensus.


If SG find a private buyer, then presumably their commission will be about 30% also? So when the "shareholders" dispose of the stamp, they will need to find a buyer at £11.4M just to break even on their £8M purchase? Assuming a buyer can be found. And all the while the stamp, sitting in a darkened vault at The Strand, produces no actual income. Why would a stamp that struggled to find a buyer at £6.5M in 2021 be worth say £13M in 2026?

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by ViccyVFU »

MJ's pet wrote:
14 Sep 2021 18:05
Why would a stamp that struggled to find a buyer at £6.5M in 2021 be worth say £13M in 2026?

Maybe today is MJ Pets epiphany day? I'll try to explain ....

N.B. Investment is best measured Cash to Cash, where you have no "value benefit of use" (a.k.a. "Joy of ownership")

The BG stamp, on 8th July 2021 was "worth" £4m (That's the sum Weissman received, nett of all charges).
Marketing costs and profits of Sothebys, (and a bit of VAT) meant that SG paid £6.2M for it.

The same stamp, seven years ago, was worth £3.8M ('ish)
Marketing costs and profits of Sothebys, meant that Weissman paid £5.6M for it.

The underlying stamp value actually crept up "a tiny bit", but the hefty charges from an auction house, totally dwarfed the increase in value occurring due to inflation, so he made A CASH LOSS.

Normally, this stamp only transacts about every 20 years, so auction house fees are just skimming off the increase in value due to inflation.

Here, the sales were too close together, and auction fees have gone up, meaning whilst Sothebys got rich, Weissman paid for their canapés (and plush offices).

What I gather SG is proposing : To sell it again, to punters, for a new set of fees, within a year.....
then to sell it again, within about five years, to add an extra set of commissions payable (to them, naturally).

The underlying stamp will be no rarer, no more desireable, and almost certainly slightly deteriorated further, by then, meaning the underlying asset value will probably still hover "around £4M".

All the reselling premiums are just "sucker scam money, unrelated to increase in underlying value".
And SG want to "double dip".

Is that clear enough?

Any questions?
.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

.
SG of course will never track their real costs, as they are clueless in this regard, or the eventual million in totally wasted staff and Executive time on this pink rag folly, but that THIRTY FIVE PAGE legal agreement (paid for by them!) with the now mandatory extra insurance and security, probably adds another few 100,000 quid to the train wreck.

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live. ... 34f65d8065

The Ma and Pa Kettle dreamers who THINK they 'own' any of it, at any time, better READ the large plaque that PHOENIX demand be visible on it at all times, showing THEY own it completely, and have a 35 page signed MORTGAGE over it.

I guess I could sell shares in my wholly owned home here, seeing this seems a viable scam?! Please mail me money in plain envelopes. ANY sums accepted!


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by ViccyVFU »


Remember also that Phoenix will not mark the deed as satisfied "until they have received their share of ALL the proceeds" (i.e including their "profit" share, which is their nominal interest charge).

So, once again all SG's "time & efforts" costs (i.e. anything other than explicit allowable costs - usually from third parties) will need to be absorbed by SG operationally.

Satisfying the deed would allow SG to sell shares, as their title would then be unencumbered, but they do not look like they are going to be able to sell enough traditional stuff to cover operational costs in the next 6 months, so all of it is "at risk".

Simply put....

"I don't think the British Guano asset can support FOUR sets of full transaction commissions,
in a space of less than 12 years"


The chances of anyone else making a profit out of it are minimal to non existent,
(with a heavy emphasis on the latter)

Or as the Sheriff said .... "Not thought through, at all".

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

MJ's pet wrote:
14 Sep 2021 18:05
Why would a stamp that struggled to find a buyer at £6.5M in 2021 be worth say £13M in 2026?


This was a rhetorical question that didn't require an actual answer. But thank you anyway. :mrgreen:

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

This just dropped on email.

Looks good - can’t wait to buy a share (if the price is good :) )

https://www.1c-magenta.com/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_me ... arly+ready

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

Text of the email just sent by Gibbons. Note the bit in red (highlighted by me). So they still haven't worked out what to do, and it will be getting on for 6 months since the sale by the time it goes live.


Good afternoon,

A lot has happened since our last update and we want to ensure that everybody is kept up-to-date with our progress towards making the world’s most famous stamp available to everybody.

With the finishing touches now being made to our display case, I’m extremely excited to be able to confirm that the ONE CENT Magenta will go on display at Stanley Gibbons on the Strand from early November.

Part of the aim of our unique fractional ownership project is to combine the best of the physical world with the flexibility and functionality of the digital world. In keeping with this, the digital offering, which will give everybody the opportunity to own part of the ONE CENT Magenta, will also go live in November and will include a number of benefits over and above the economic rights which come with ownership.
"...the ONE CENT Magenta will go on display at Stanley Gibbons on the Strand from early November."
While it won’t be available immediately, building on this and contrary to certain articles in the press, we are pleased to announce that we will also subsequently be launching a secondary market facility for those who wish to sell or buy more over time.

I also want to thank everybody once again for your feedback and survey responses, we have pored through literally thousands and your comments have helped shape the shared ownership offering.

Speaking of which I can now also announce the winner of our competition. The person, selected at random, who will be receiving a private viewing of the ONE CENT Magenta, as well as enjoying a stay at the world-famous Savoy hotel, is Luke Oldham, congratulations Luke, we look forward to arranging your visit.

Trying to deliver a unique solution for a unique item has thrown up many interesting decisions, but we have now also finalised all of the details behind the fractional ownership offering and I look forward to sharing these with you prior to the launch date.

Kind regards


Graham Shircore
Stanley Gibbons CEO.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Stanley Gibbons now allegedly taking bitcoin for this nonsense (if indeed they ever actually decide how to market it) -- now I have seen EVERYTHING. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by DigitalPhilatelist »

Pretty much what I have been saying - they are NFT'ing. Somehow they hope their 70yr old followers are going to go crazy and buy up big. Also sounds like they are setting up an online selling platform specifically for their NFTs.

Grab the popcorn, folks! :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Allanswood »

Global Administrator wrote:
21 Sep 2021 23:58
.
Stanley Gibbons now allegedly taking bitcoin for this nonsense (if indeed they ever actually decide how to market it) -- now I have seen EVERYTHING. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Image


Maybe they should invest in a grammar checker while they're at it.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by polisciguy2011 »

Definitely reassuring when the email is riddled with typos. But hey, at least they included what we were all hoping for: a blueprint of the five-figure display case they commissioned. Yet again, they put more thought into that than anything to do with this "investment" scheme.


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

DigitalPhilatelist wrote:
22 Sep 2021 10:03
Pretty much what I have been saying - they are NFT'ing. Somehow they hope their 70yr old followers are going to go crazy and buy up big. Also sounds like they are setting up an online selling platform specifically for their NFTs.

Grab the popcorn, folks! :lol:


Hang on sonny. It remains to be seen how the 1c BG slivers will be offered.

They can have shared ownership without NFTs. But they can't have NFTs without shared ownership.

If they go down the NFT path then whether the offer will be regulated by UK law depends on the type of NFT. As I understand it, most NFTs are not regulated by UK law.

But if it is akin to a "share" then there are some regulations. Phoenix is a large well-funded outfit and I am not saying they will do anything outside of regulations. On the contrary, they will want their offer to be totally legal and complaint.

But SG Guernsey was legal too. Whether it is :idea: commercially a good idea :idea: to purchase a 1c BG share sliver/s is something that prospective purchasers should think long and hard about.

Paying for it using Bitcoin is just razzamatazz on the side. (Phoenix BTW will convert any Bitcoin into cold hard cash).

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by ViccyVFU »

polisciguy2011 wrote:
22 Sep 2021 12:58

Image
Well, this case is far too "bright and airy" to go in the main auditorium of 399, so its going to be in a darkened room
(off to the side), and they'll blu-tack a couple of glow worms to your covid mask, to ensure even illumination?

I guess the whole top part lifts off, so they can put it back in the vaults overnight?

What could possibly go wrong?


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by polisciguy2011 »

ViccyVFU wrote:
23 Sep 2021 11:47
polisciguy2011 wrote:
22 Sep 2021 12:58

Image
Well, this case is far too "bright and airy" to go in the main auditorium of 399, so its going to be in a darkened room
(off to the side), and they'll blu-tack a couple of glow worms to your covid mask, to ensure even illumination?

I guess the whole top part lifts off, so they can put it back in the vaults overnight?

What could possibly go wrong?

It's a Benny Hill sketch waiting to happen. :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

.
I think it is a nuclear power plant they plan to sell to North Korea. :)

Gibbons have a long history of spending totally DUMB amounts of money on DUMB things. :roll: :roll: :roll:



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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by DigitalPhilatelist »

MJ's pet wrote:
23 Sep 2021 10:54
DigitalPhilatelist wrote:
22 Sep 2021 10:03
Pretty much what I have been saying - they are NFT'ing. Somehow they hope their 70yr old followers are going to go crazy and buy up big. Also sounds like they are setting up an online selling platform specifically for their NFTs.

Grab the popcorn, folks! :lol:


Hang on sonny. It remains to be seen how the 1c BG slivers will be offered.

They can have shared ownership without NFTs. But they can't have NFTs without shared ownership.

If they go down the NFT path then whether the offer will be regulated by UK law depends on the type of NFT. As I understand it, most NFTs are not regulated by UK law.

But if it is akin to a "share" then there are some regulations. Phoenix is a large well-funded outfit and I am not saying they will do anything outside of regulations. On the contrary, they will want their offer to be totally legal and complaint.

But SG Guernsey was legal too. Whether it is :idea: commercially a good idea :idea: to purchase a 1c BG share sliver/s is something that prospective purchasers should think long and hard about.

Paying for it using Bitcoin is just razzamatazz on the side. (Phoenix BTW will convert any Bitcoin into cold hard cash).
"If the token does not confer any rights on the owner, other than the ability to hold, buy or sell, then it will be considered an “exchange token” and will not be regulated. If the token confers rights to obtain goods or services, including rights to other tokens, it will be considered a “utility token” and will not be regulated. If a token combines the characteristics of an “exchange token” and a “utility token”, it will also be unregulated."

It's pretty clear that this is where they are heading. Creating a "secondary market facility" is just talk for creating a trading platform for NFTs (probably where SG will impose a fee for per trade). For SG, this will be revolutionary in their eyes. :roll:

I still think that SG's clientele is not the market for NFTs. But, we shall see...
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

.
I recall when this brilliant purchase was first made, the SG Thought Bubble PR warbling was that Phoenix owned some kind of company that markets exactly this kind of con the wood ducks time-share stuff.

So it would not surprise me to see in next accounts a 100,000 quid ''consulting service'' bill to XYZ Time Share Expertise Inc.

More money flowing out, nuclear proof cases, mega insurances, a new boxful of legals and agreements for another 100,000+ quid cost, but absolutely nothing flowing in. Typical Gibbons.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

If Phoenix go down the NFT offering route, question becomes what is the regulatory regime around it? Either heavily regulated or nothing at all it seems. The UK Financial Conduct Authority do watch this type of thing.
BBC wrote:Kim Kardashian crypto ad singled out by financial watchdog

6 September 2021

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58462517

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Kim Kardashian has been criticised for promoting an untested cryptocurrency on Instagram, by the head of the UK's Financial Conduct Authority (FCA).

Charles Randell said Ms Kardashian had "asked her 250 million followers to speculate on crypto tokens" by promoting an advert for Ethereum Max.

He called it "a speculative digital token created a month before by unknown developers".

And he accused influencers of fuelling the "delusions of quick riches".

Mr Randell was speaking to the Cambridge International Symposium on Economic Crime.

The FCA chairman said Ms Kardashian's Instagram post, which he noted had been correctly flagged as an ad, may have been the "financial promotion with the single biggest audience reach in history".

The promoted token Ethereum Max was, he stressed, not to be confused with the Ethereum cryptocurrency.

"I can't say whether this particular token [Ethereum Max] is a scam," he said.

"But social media influencers are routinely paid by scammers to help them pump and dump new tokens on the back of pure speculation. Some influencers promote coins that turn out simply not to exist at all," he said.

The BBC has approached Ethereum Max and Ms Kardashian for comment.

Mr Randell said about 2.3 million Britons currently hold cryptocurrency and he said 14% of them also use credit to purchase them - "thereby increasing the exposure to loss".

He said the FCA had repeatedly warned about the risks of holding "speculative tokens", which are not regulated by the FCA or covered by any compensation scheme.

"If you buy them, you should be prepared to lose all your money," he said.

Mr Randell said there was a case for regulation of promotions to address consumers' misconceptions that their investments were protected - and "the relentless and often misleading advertising techniques of some crypto businesses".

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by ViccyVFU »

DigitalPhilatelist wrote:
23 Sep 2021 17:35
"If the token does not confer any rights on the owner, other than the ability to hold, buy or sell, then it will be considered an “exchange token” and will not be regulated. If the token confers rights to obtain goods or services, including rights to other tokens, it will be considered a “utility token” and will not be regulated. If a token combines the characteristics of an “exchange token” and a “utility token”, it will also be unregulated."
That's easy for you to say, but when you look at the full list of tokens, you'll see that their wording is aimed directly into the "security tokens" category, which is already regulated.

crypto.jpg
Treasury Consultation Paper - Classes of Tokens (2021)


(and to save mjpets "moments of searching" :D )

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/ ... tation.pdf
UK Regulatory Approach to Cryptoassets and Stablecoins Consultation Paper (Jan 2021)

For those of you that like "a nuance built upon a nuance", the difference is basically that unregulated NFT's are based upon "a digital creation", whereas a security token is based upon "a physical asset".

If SG made "the highest scan of the BG stamp possible", technically they could NFT that as unregulated, but if they are backing it with a sliver of the actual asset, its in the physical world, and regulated.

I agree with digitalphilatelist that the current pool of stamp people is unlikely to be sufficient "to sweep up the volume of shares offered" (mainly because they are clever ... its not a money thing :D ).

But there are a whole raft of "chilled soya milk latte" bunnies out there, who join any gold rush, and buy on credit (often e-credit).

If you are buying as "an investment", rather than just for "the joy of holding", be doubly sure of YOUR exit strategy, including ALL COSTS, because I see no prospect of a traditional return over any period (1, 3, 5, 10 or 20 years).

The only ones making money will be the promoter (Phoenix / SG), and the lawyers for issuance, trading and eventual winding up of the scheme. You have to pay for ALL of them!!

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by DigitalPhilatelist »

It would depend on how they offer the NFT. Its quite possible that they offer a share of the 1c with an additional NFT, kinda avoiding the security aspect. This would be similar to Crypto stamps in Austria.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by ViccyVFU »

DigitalPhilatelist wrote:
23 Sep 2021 20:15
It would depend on how they offer the NFT. Its quite possible that they offer a share of the 1c with an additional NFT, kinda avoiding the security aspect. This would be similar to Crypto stamps in Austria.
Not quite.

In that example, you are taking delivery of the physical asset (whole postage stamp), that has an "exchange token" attached, (so unregulated).

The nuances and potholes of all the new permutations are numerous, but .....

"Whatever SG come up with", you can be 100% sure it will be :

(a) "In their commercial favour",

and

(b) "Your shirt that is at risk"


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by DigitalPhilatelist »

lol...and a gift bag of CTO stamps from the 1990s :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

Global Administrator wrote:
21 Sep 2021 23:58
Stanley Gibbons now allegedly taking bitcoin for this nonsense (if indeed they ever actually decide how to market it) -- now I have seen EVERYTHING. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Image


25th September 2021:

bitcoin.png

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by yellowduck »

Feldman has released their catalogue for the British Guiana auction this month.

Their promotional email says it's an unreserved sale.

There are some lots estimated at just a few hundred pounds, so a chance to own an item from a big 'name sale', without a huge price tag. Of course, there are also items available at 250,000 pounds for those who want trophies.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by JonEboy »

Even more confusion appears today with the arrival of the new Part 1 at JonEboy towers. Under the British Guiana section we see a full page article extolling the unique virtues of this stamp, but in the listing is says this:
IMG_9038.JPG
Following it’s most recent sale in June 2021, it is now in the stock of Stanley Gibbons Ltd who invite enquiries from interested parties
If I’m reading this correctly, they are saying, in print, that the stamp is owned by SG Ltd and that if I pitch up with £10m they might just sell it to me. Now I really am confused :shock:

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Allanswood »

If someone made the right offer, they would sell it.

Even when split into its future online ownership, only 60% need to agree to an outright offer and it would be sold. And I think Phoenix retain a 58% holding? So them and 2% from someone else and it would sell.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by yellowduck »

It looks a bit tacky I think for SG to be marketing the BG stamp with that footnote.

But its their catalogue...and they do say "our catalogue is our price list".

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by polisciguy2011 »

The only reason I personally find it tacky is that it comes off as bragging to me; anyone who might make an offer for the 1c magenta probably doesn't need to read about it in the Part 1. They either already know about it, or have an investment manager who does. So it reads to me like really showing off to the everyday consumer.

But hey, that's their right. They did buy it in the end.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by gavin-h »

yellowduck wrote:
08 Oct 2021 17:14
It looks a bit tacky I think for SG to be marketing the BG stamp with that footnote.

But its their catalogue...and they do say "our catalogue is our price list".
The fact that they explicitly make reference to this stamp being in their stock and for interested parties to make enquiries effectively gives the lie to ANY claim for the catalogue to be their price list. :idea:

If you don't believe that, find a relatively low-catalogue but hard to find area, for instance German Occupation of Albania and ask them to supply those stamps at the prices listed in the catalogue. :geek:

Or, simply, add the values of one example of every stamp in the catalogue and compare that with the latest available data from their annual report. :ugeek:

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by iaincraven »

effectively gives the lie to ANY claim for the catalogue to be their price list.
When has there ever been any claim the Part 1 catalogue (or any other SG catalogue) is their price list of items in stock?

The catalogue introduction explains the pricing basis and clears up this kind of misunderstanding. It is reflecting the estimated selling price if the item was in stock and being requested by a buyer. It notes additional handling charge for individual low value stamps and that items may be offered for sale by SG below catalogue price.

Most SG catalogues would be pretty close to useless if it was their price list of items currently in stock and if all cheap stamps had a blanket handling-inclusive price of say £5 :lol:

Do laugh that they've used the infinity symbol ∞ for the stamp :roll:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

gavin-h wrote:
09 Oct 2021 01:31
The fact that they explicitly make reference to this stamp being in their stock and for interested parties to make enquiries effectively gives the lie to ANY claim for the catalogue to be their price list. :idea:


The 1c BG footnote entry is very tacky, everyone agrees on that.

But gavin-h is going too far to say that Gibbons "lie" or is "lying".

All they have done is to decline to price it - the equivalent of a star: "*" (which ViccyVFU predicted ages ago).

This is explicable because they are not going through a traditional sale. If the NFT plan eventuates, and if the shares are fully sold (multiple "ifs" there) , Phoenix will generate between £8M and £10M based on their previous statements. Basically they do not want to box themselves into too low a figure if a higher offer magically appeared.

Loads of dealer lists say "P.O.R." (Price on Request). Which means in plain English, as you know, "this is in stock infrequently, it is expensive, so we will quote after you express interest". That is what Gibbons are saying but in a different form of words.

Gibbons are also damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they put a stratospheric value on the 1c people would (rightly) accuse them of trying to ramp the market. If they put it in as £6.5M (what they paid for it) then they harm the resale. What people are upset about is that they can't catch Gibbons in a "gotcha" moment.

This is all a storm in teacup. My guess is that if the NFT plan goes ahead, then the next edition of Gibbons will have a definite figure next to the 1c BG entry.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by polisciguy2011 »

While I understand the why, it has always struck me as strange that there even is a catalog value attached to bona fide one-of-a-kinds or only-one-identified's. You'd think it would be impossible to set a fair price, even for citation as insurance value, in that circumstance, no?
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Zach

I agree. My collecting interests are narrow and esoteric. I have several covers which are unique, with stamps on cover unpriced by SG. For insurance purposes it is next to impossible to obtain a valuation even from the most prestigious dealers who always point to the fact that you know the area better than them.

The numbers printed of the issues were so small that other stamps or covers are unlikely to surface, they not having done so over the last hundred plus years.

Although not talking of megabucks those that are priced have a multiplier of 'from times 8' on cover and are in the £300-£750 bracket used.

My published rarity guide for mint used and on cover is accepted as definitive and the professionals tell me I should be on top of the market. As one of my listed covers shot up from £2000 to £6000 in the latest Part 1(2022) for reasons that are entirely beyond me, I certainly do not 'know the market' and an insurance company are not going to just take my word.

Auctioneers will tell me that I will know the market if I sell but I do not want to.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Bruny 7250 »

It strikes me that the only value in a stamp is in holding the physical object. Everything else is just smoke-and-mirrors.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

Bruny 7250 wrote:
09 Oct 2021 19:04

It strikes me that the only value in a stamp is in holding the physical object.

Everything else is just smoke-and-mirrors.

As SG and their dreamer backers will VERY soon discover, is the near universal feeling.

Selling micro slices of it, is a joke.

It will never work, they'll sell 5% of it and the these dopes will then go "What on earth do we do now"?

SG have never, ever, understood the internet, and they just keep proving it! :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by JonEboy »

Global Administrator wrote:
09 Oct 2021 19:19
Bruny 7250 wrote:
09 Oct 2021 19:04

It strikes me that the only value in a stamp is in holding the physical object.

Everything else is just smoke-and-mirrors.

As SG and their dreamer backers will VERY soon discover, is the near universal feeling.

Selling micro slices of it, is a joke.

It will never work, they'll sell 5% of it and the these dopes will then go "What on earth do we do now"?

SG have never, ever, understood the internet, and they just keep proving it! :lol:
.
Moreover, if they do sell NFT's, can they then sell the actual item to another single buyer? And if so, is the new buyer then liable for those NFT's?

Too many questions and I'm still confused.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

JonEboy wrote:
09 Oct 2021 20:06

Too many questions, and I'm still confused.

You are the perfect person for the SG Board.

Indeed - that statement sounds exactly like they made it! :lol: :lol:

They have not had a clue on this, for the many months since they bought it.

The newest brain fart pronouncement is that some totally inexperienced start up company SHOWPIECE TECHNOLOGIES will now be offering it - looking a little further we see -

SG are not selling the GUANO - whose CEO is Graham Shircore who knows nothing about stamps anyway.

The GUANO is owned by Phoenix - a director of whom is Graham Shircore.

So the newbie start up company Showpiece Technologies Limited with zero track record in anything it seems, is now anointed to somehow market this turkey, and has, as one of 2 Directors -- Graham Shircore. :!:

So the SG coffers I suspect is wearing all these juicy layers of Director Fees, and other fees, and consultancies etc.

Is that in the BEST interests of all SG shareholders - you be the judge. :!:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13551627/officers
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by gavin-h »

MJ's pet wrote:
09 Oct 2021 10:37
gavin-h wrote:
09 Oct 2021 01:31
The fact that they explicitly make reference to this stamp being in their stock and for interested parties to make enquiries effectively gives the lie to ANY claim for the catalogue to be their price list. :idea:


The 1c BG footnote entry is very tacky, everyone agrees on that.

But gavin-h is going too far to say that Gibbons "lie" or is "lying".

All they have done is to decline to price it - the equivalent of a star: "*" (which ViccyVFU predicted ages ago).

.
I think that's a misrepresentation. :idea:

By carefully choosing my words "...effectively gives the lie to ANY claim..." I certainly did not accuse anyone specifically of that - it was using a colloquial expression for a general observation made to the many collectors and dealers who have claimed this in the past. No names, no pack drill.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by yellowduck »

MJ's pet wrote:
09 Oct 2021 10:37
Loads of dealer lists say "P.O.R." (Price on Request). Which means in plain English, as you know, "this is in stock infrequently, it is expensive, so we will quote after you express interest".
Or the market for the item is volatile, so you have to inquire and they'll quote you the price of it that day. Remember the fad for Welsh Diana packs 20 years ago or whenever it was they were issued.

No volatility when it comes to the BG magenta...just the opposite, have to work hard to find a wealthy buyer...and then the game of negotiation begins.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

JonEboy wrote:
09 Oct 2021 20:06
Moreover, if they do sell NFT's, can they then sell the actual item to another single buyer? And if so, is the new buyer then liable for those NFT's?


These are legitimate questions to ask on a discussion board headed "Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps".

NFTs are completely new to philately. The detail is buried in documents that not everyone has the time to read or chase down. And split over two threads.

Showpiece Technologies (which is a separate company but really controlled and owned* by Phoenix Asset Management Partners LImited: PAMP own the full £10,000 of Showpiece shares; the 1c is owned by Phoenix SG Ltd) will issue up to £10M worth of NFTs for sale. ("less than 100,000 pieces in total and the price per piece during early access will be less than £100". It has also been proposed earlier that the issue would be 50,000x£160=£8M. So the quantity of NFTs to be issued is undecided. Showpiece will want to ensure the issue sells out to they do not have egg on their face, so are gauging what the interest level is).

To answer the question, the NFT's are backed by the physical item. Phoenix cannot sell the 1c BG to another buyer and keep the money.

If all the NFTs sell (?) then a 60% majority of NFT holders can decide by a vote to accept an offer for the physical 1c BG, or auction it or otherwise sell it. ("if a genuine offer is received for an item in its entirety, those owning pieces of the item will be asked to vote on whether to accept the offer or not. If over 60% of the votes cast are in favour of acceptance, the item will be sold.").

If a sale happened, the NFTs would basically cease to exist. Really the proposed NFTs are just a "share", but in fancier terminology designed to appeal to a particular segment of investors.

Consider though, that Phoenix / Showpiece etc. are not concerned with a resale. Their concern is with the initial sale of NFTs to investors. ("Unless our members ask us to, Showpiece will not actively market the items on the platform"). Gibbons, on the other hand, has a financial interest in a resale. An offer may materialise from someone extremely wealthy walking into 399 The Strand. Or it may not. If there is no offer in the coming years, investors wanting to exit would need to sell their NFTs on the secondary market (which is yet to be built), possibly at a loss.

The very interesting question is, what happens if the share offer is not fully subscribed? Will they offer NFTs/shares at a discounted price to get the "float" away? Will existing NFT holders get priority on those shares? (presumably). Will unsold NFT's be "allocated" to Phoenix or related parties or will they have to pay? The nightmare scenario for Phoenix is a paltry take-up of NFTs, say the sale of only £1M worth. In this situation they would probably have to cancel the "float", refund the "share" money, retain ownership of the physical 1c BG and go back to the drawing board with a traditional sale at some time in the future.

A lot of this is speculation as no one knows yet what the level of interest will be in 1c BG NFTs.

Things will become a little clearer when the results of the (related Phoenix and SG entity) Castelnau share float become known:

Latest time and date for receipt of Initial Placing orders - Midday on 12 October 2021
Announcement of the results of the Initial Issue - 14 October 2021.
Last edited by MJ's pet on 12 Oct 2021 10:23, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Catweazle »

polisciguy2011 wrote:
08 Oct 2021 18:41
The only reason I personally find it tacky is that it comes off as bragging to me; anyone who might make an offer for the 1c magenta probably doesn't need to read about it in the Part 1. They either already know about it, or have an investment manager who does. So it reads to me like really showing off to the everyday consumer.

But hey, that's their right. They did buy it in the end.
Why else would you buy that thing? :mrgreen:

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

MJ's pet wrote:
12 Oct 2021 09:51

The very interesting question is, what happens if the share offer is not fully subscribed? Will they offer NFTs/shares at a discounted price to get the "float" away? Will existing NFT holders get priority on those shares? (presumably).

Will unsold NFT's be "allocated" to Phoenix or related parties or will they have to pay? The nightmare scenario for Phoenix is a paltry take-up of NFTs, say the sale of only £1M worth.

In this situation they would probably have to cancel the "float", refund the "share" money, retain ownership of the physical 1c BG and go back to the drawing board with a traditional sale at some time in the future.

Well seeing the offering is being handed by a totally inexperienced new company, started only in August, it has zero hope of success in this loopy offering. It has zero track record in this field.

So I predict the GUANO float will be wildly undersubscribed.

Phoenix or its many offshoots will not hoover them up at miles above that they paid -- essentially buying their own item back, at miles over their real cost, so the whole disaster will need to be aborted I'd guess.

If so, costing all in all, VERY many 100,000s in complex legals, and detailed accountant and audit fees, lodgment fees, and so on, and regulatory paperwork, and chewing up endless hours of SG staff and executive time of course dragging them away from SELLING REAL STAMPS.

All money totally down the drain, and all deducted off SGs bottom line too I suspect.

We shall soon see.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Administrator »

.
SG could at least appoint me as a consultant to this circus as I suspect not a soul connected with it has even been to the country. I have an impressive web of local contacts there. :)

I was in the Amazonian jungles of GUYANA for Xmas Day in tiny dusty frontier town Lethem, a few years back. :) Somehow got across from the tip of North Brazil, via a tiny tin shed Brazil customs post, where the 3 bored guards literally had diagonal bandoliers of Bullets across their chests etc and wide brimmed cowboy hats. Like a Butch Cassidy move out-take! Number of Western Tourists visiting a year there - about TWO I'd guess! :lol:

GUYANA was the last of the 14 South American countries I visited over 30 years, something very few folks have done. South American it might be located in, but all the folks there spoke heavily accented Caribbean English - just like Sir Clive Lloyd - who of course was born there! 100 metres back in Brazil, all spoke Portuguese.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »

It sounds like they need to go on a full fact-finding mission to Guyana. All paid for by Gibbons of course. :lol:

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »



Linns article: https://www.linns.com/news/world-stamps-postal-history/stanl ... -1-magenta

Stanley Gibbons to offer fractional ownership of British Guiana 1856 1¢ Magenta

Oct 12, 2021, 3 PM

By Charles Snee

1c image Linns.jpg
London-based dealer Stanley Gibbons will soon begin offering fractional ownership of the famous British Guiana 1856 1¢ Magenta, which the firm acquired for somewhat more than $8.3 million during a June 8 Sotheby’s auction in New York City.


The legendary British Guiana 1856 1¢ Magenta, arguably the world’s most famous stamp, made headlines June 8 when it was sold for slightly more than $8.3 million during a Sotheby’s auction in New York City.

“Within two hours of the sale, the British dealer and philatelic publisher Stanley Gibbons announced it was the purchaser of the stamp and intended to ‘democratise the ownership’ of it, presumably by selling shares in the stamp to the public,” reported Matthew Healey in the June 28 issue of Linn’s Stamp News.

Since that time, Stanley Gibbons, which is based in London, has launched an effort to give collectors and others an opportunity to own a part of this iconic stamp through fractional ownership, which Investopedia defines as “percentage ownership in an asset. Fractional ownership shares in the asset are sold to individual shareholders who share the benefits of the asset such as usage rights, income sharing, priority access, and reduced rates.”

In an Oct. 4 press release, Stanley Gibbons announced that it has selected the online platform Showpiece to facilitate fractional ownership of the 1¢ Magenta. Details are available on the Showpiece website.

Those who register their interest on the website will have the opportunity to acquire shares in the stamp “during the first, early access period,” according to Stanley Gibbons.

These initial shares will be sold at a lower price than shares offered during future offerings, Stanley Gibbons said.

According to Stanley Gibbons, the first shares in the 1¢ Magenta will be available for purchase sometime in November.

Stanley Gibbons decided to partner with Showpiece because “it has invested heavily in the customer offering and will continue to do so.”

“This gives us confidence that our customers will receive the best experience possible,” Stanley Gibbons said.

“In addition, Showpiece plan to continue adding features and improving the platform over time so that the customer experience continuously develops.”

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by MJ's pet »



Antiques Trade Gazette article: https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/print-edition/2021/octo ... lectables/

Stanley Gibbons starts shared ownership for collectables

Stanley Gibbons’ plans to offer shares in the world’s most expensive stamp are set to become a reality with the launch of a new fractional ownership website

Print Edition 2513 - 16 October 2021

1c image gazette.jpg
The British Guiana One-Cent Magenta was already the world’s most expensive stamp before its sale at Sotheby’s in June where it made $7m (£4.97m). Buyer Stanley Gibbons is now “democratising” its ownership.



The platform called Showpiece, built in partnership between Stanley Gibbons and its majority shareholder Phoenix Asset Management, will go live next month. The dealership said that it has had over 5000 expressions of interest in the scheme from participants so far.

The stamp – the sole surviving example of the British Guiana One-Cent Magenta – was offered at Sotheby’s New York in June where it was knocked down to Gibbons at $7m (£4.97m). The price including premium was $8.3m. Shortly after the auction the stamp dealer said it was planning to “democratise” its ownership by inviting the public to buy shares in the item.

It has now been announced that this process will occur in stages with the first phase being a limited time period when each piece of the One Cent Magenta will be on sale for an early adopter’s price of under £100. A spokesman said: “Showpiece will make the structure, individual piece pricing and total value public in advance of the launch in November.”

When asked if Stanley Gibbons will retain a stake in the stamp, the spokesman said: “The firm is keen to retain an interest in the stamp, and therefore will put themselves in a similar position to those individuals who purchase part of the stamp. Precise details have yet to be disclosed.”

The One Cent Magenta will be the first item made available for fractional ownership through Showpiece but it is envisaged that shares in other historical items and artefacts will be offered on its platform in a similar way including collectables from categories such as sport, entertainment, media and music.

The platform will use Amazon’s quantum ledger database (QLDB) to maintain a “transparent, immutable, and cryptographically verifiable record of ownership”.

In terms of how and when owners can sell their shares, Showpiece has pledged to create a marketplace on its website within six months from launch allowing people to buy and sell to each other following the initial sale. Details of the transaction costs are yet to be released but Showpiece said its goal was to achieve “a major reduction” compared to the fees “typically associated with buying and selling these types of items”.

If an offer is made to buy an item outright, shareholders will be asked to vote on whether to accept the offer or not. If over 60% of the votes cast are in favour of acceptance, the item will be sold in its entirety and fractional owners will receive their share of the proceeds.

Chief executive of Stanley Gibbons and co-founder of Showpiece Graham Shircore said: “Showpiece makes the rarefied world of collecting these types of treasures an affordable pleasure open to anyone, not just the wealthy. One Cent Magenta is only the first amazingly rare item that Showpiece intends to offer ownership of.”

For more information see showpiece.com.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c British Guiana stamp

Post by deltic1575 »

Showpiece are advertising for a "Head of Customer Delight" paying £30k
About the job
Hi! We are Showpiece

Showpiece is a new start-up that believes in making ownership of the world’s most famous and valuable treasures available to all.


The first item we are making available on our platform will be the world’s most famous stamp. The ONE CENT Magenta. A unique item that last sold at auction for over $8.3 million.


We are partnering with Stanley Gibbons, the world’s longest established rare stamp merchant and the company who currently own the ONE CENT Magenta.


Learn more about us at www.showpiece.com.


A role with many roles

This role comes with the opportunity to be one of the first 5 employees of a high-growth tech business with huge ambitions (the $8.3m stamp is just the start).


Initially the role will be a customer facing role – both physically in Stanley Gibbon’s London store and online. However, it is hard to completely define rolls at a start-up as we need everyone to pull up their sleeves and work hard to make the business a success.


The reward, for the right person is the ability to help shape the future of this exciting business in a wide range of areas – from customer service, marketing, strategy and beyond.


What the right person looks like

You must be customer obsessed. We are looking for someone that is confident interacting with members of the public and takes pride in going the extra mile.


Additional qualities required:

Self-motivated (this is a start-up remember!) and entrepreneurial in character
Hard working
Highly organised
Team player
Curious minds with interests in areas such as history, collectables, technology, business, current affairs (these are just examples!)
Excellent written English and grammar

We are eager to provide a copy of our company principles on request. They are important to us and so any future member of the team has to be comfortable with them too.


Interested? We want to hear from you! Please email us at hello@showpiece.com with your application and please also tell us what your favourite item in the world is (it can be anything).

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