Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thread

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by mcgooley »

More likely to be Caramut's 27. The '4' in this series has a serif on the foot - which your example is lacking.
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Global Administrator »

Wise words McGooley .... yes '27' of CARAMUT seems more likely. :lol:

So that makes it "RR" as Type 2 I guess?
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by borsac »

What type of Caramut cancel is this compared to the one used on Glen's stamp above?
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by mcgooley »

Caramut used three cancellers: the first type (as shown by Glen's poor example) with two side-bars; this was sent back and recut before 1870, leaving single side-bars, and was in use until Federation. After the telegraph station opened in Caramut, a duplex was sent to cope with the additional workload - Borsac, this is your example.
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by borsac »

mcgooley wrote:Caramut used three cancellers: the first type (as shown by Glen's poor example) with two side-bars; this was sent back and recut before 1870, leaving single side-bars, and was in use until Federation. After the telegraph station opened in Caramut, a duplex was sent to cope with the additional workload - Borsac, this is your example.
Thanks McGooley
So can I assume this is a common cancel?
Regards Tony

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by borsac »

This is Broad Creek South Australia and is dated 1st Feb(?) 1883
In the Book Handheld Postmarks of South Australia and the Northern Territory it states the was used only until "?-9-82"

Assuming this is correct and I haven't missed something this is a 5R cancel isn't it?

Regards Tony

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Bunge »

I agree with Broad Creek (Type F1), nice find Tony, and it appears you have the LRD there too, which appears to be 1/2/1883..

Please save my old neck from cracking by turning the stamp the correct way so we can read the cancel :shock:

Cheers Bunge :P
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by borsac »

Bunge wrote:I agree with Broad Creek (Type F1), nice find Tony, and it appears you have the LRD there too, which appears to be 1/2/1883..

Please save my old neck from cracking by turning the stamp the correct way so we can read the cancel :shock:

Cheers Bunge :P
Hey Bunge sorry about the neck. :wink:
I'll post a tilted image for you when I get home from work.

How many of these are there and does me posting this change it from a 5R to a 4R? :lol:

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Bunge »

Tony 5R = 1 - 3 copies considered to exist, so unless Neville knows of 3 copies already, and yours makes 4, then it is still a 5R cancel :mrgreen:

Cheers Bunge :P
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by borsac »

Bunge wrote:Tony 5R = 1 - 3 copies considered to exist, so unless Neville knows of 3 copies already, and yours makes 4, then it is still a 5R cancel :mrgreen:

Cheers Bunge :P
I'm doing your chiropractor out of a job her Bunge
regards Tony

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by borsac »

Bunge wrote:Tony 5R = 1 - 3 copies considered to exist, so unless Neville knows of 3 copies already, and yours makes 4, then it is still a 5R cancel :mrgreen:

Cheers Bunge :P
I'm doing your chiropractor out of a job her Bunge
regards Tony

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by savs »

I believe the first is 359 recut Hardies Hill. Why would a handstamp with what appears to be so little use have been recut ?

What of the others ?

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Bunge »

savs wrote:I believe the first is 359 recut Hardies Hill. Why would a handstamp with what appears to be so little use have been recut ?

What of the others ?

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Nice cancels there savs :mrgreen:

It certainly looks like 359 to me ~ Type 3R ~ Rated 5R

To answer your question about Recuts ~ To be terse, they were recut so that the actual Numeral could be more easily identified, and not surrounded by side bars.. Not because they were worn out..

2nd ~ BN 540 ~ Type 5 of Gooley's Creek ~ Rated 4R

3rd ~ BN 664 ~ Type 6A of Millbrook ~ Rated S

4th ~ BN 1485 ~ Type 14B of Mount Hooghly ~ Rated 3R

Cheers Bunge :P
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by mcgooley »

Bunge wrote:4th ~ BN 1485 ~ Type 14B of Mount Hooghly ~ Rated 3R
I would add that the Mount Hooghly BN rating should be downgraded to an R-rating, given the number which have shown up during the past few years.

To expand on Pete's explanation of the recuts in general (and Hardies Hill in particular), it was discovered during the late 1850s that the side bars could confuse the reading of numbers - more particularly if the obliteration was imperfectly struck - and this led to the complete removal of the side-bars for new cancellers during April 1862.

Apparently, the first recut was Malmsbury's 98 - most probably to avoid confusion with Yowen Hill [later, Charlton] 86, particularly after the postal service to Charlton increased during the late 1860s.

To return to Hardies Hill; this service began operation in September 1861, but I have circumstantial evidence that the canceller was not sent for several months. What should have been a type-3 was (on my research) issued to postmaster Mr James as a type-3 recut in the first instance.
savs wrote:Why would a handstamp with what appears to be so little use have been recut ?
It should also be noted that many of the obliterators issued before mid-1862 were never sent back for recutting to remove the side-bars.

The reasons for doing so most often revolved around the 6:9 problem, or with numerals which could be confused when struck while in an unclean state - and some offices were particularly condemned due to location (or the postmaster's habits!) where dirt and grit could make a barred numeral almost unreadable.

Hardies Hill never suffered from that problem...
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by savs »

Thanks for comments, terrific resource and knowledge in these threads.

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by David Smitham »

Information wanted please.

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The above two stamps will feature in a forthcoming publication Non-Fiscal Cancellations on New Zealand's Queen Victoria Long Type Stamps.

They are not New Zealand cancels and thus ought not to have been legitimately applied to the two cleaned fiscal stamps.

The # 601/109 cancel appears to be British in style and the part # 18 cancel appears to be Australian in style. Of course they both may have been made up as the whim took the maker's fancy.

Can any one confirm that these are genuine Australian/British cancels and/or styles? Personally I doubt that they are genuine cancels.

Thank you.

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by wolseley16/60 »

The 4d has had the fiscal cancellation washed off it [ You can just see the green fiscal lines]. Hence the washed out appearance of it......

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by manfaefife »

manfaefife wrote:Is this numeral 10 of Carcoar Type 2R20 as shown in Hugh Freeman's Numeral Cancellation Book ? The only query I have is the shape of the 0 doesn't seem to fit any of the 4 examples.

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Any thoughts on this query which didn't seem to get a respond when first posted ?
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by rehautala »

I agree it is 2R20. The example in Freeman's book is poorly inked with what looks like diluted ink. That is probably why you can't match the "0" very well. The rays match however, so it looks correct.

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Kiwidude »

Hi there,

I've posted this on another thread

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12224&start=1750#p4586590

But thought I'd post here so it can be posted for future years.

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Image

Check the other thread to see if you would of seen it.

Thanks Peter

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Kiwidude »

Hi there,

In the last lot was this one.

Not as easy to figure out.

Can you help?? 73 on top of a different post mark?

Thanks Peter

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by mcgooley »

Double strike of (BN 73) Sandridge (Port Melbourne) first duplex, struck July 26, 1863.
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by manfaefife »

rehautala wrote:I agree it is 2R20. The example in Freeman's book is poorly inked with what looks like diluted ink. That is probably why you can't match the "0" very well. The rays match however, so it looks correct.
Thank you for your response rehautala, very helpful.
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Victoria 1d 1905 Barrel 538 Value

Post by arcadien »

Dear All,

Long time I havent been here ! I hope you are all well.
I am back into the philately and I was going through my Victoria stamps and found
this 1d 1905 Barrel 538: that is "538 CARLTON .....RRRRR Non duplex with large thick figures."

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What would the value be of the stamp ?

Thanks in advance and kind regards

:D ArcadieN :D

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by GlenStephens »

Minimal value I think. :)
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Re: Victoria 1d 1905 Barrel 538 Value

Post by traralgon3844 »

arcadien wrote:Dear All,

Long time I havent been here ! I hope you are all well.
I am back into the philately and I was going through my Victoria stamps and found
this 1d 1905 Barrel 538: that is "538 CARLTON .....RRRRR Non duplex with large thick figures."

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What would the value be of the stamp ?

Thanks in advance and kind regards

:D ArcadieN :D
Freeman states that ONLY duplex cancellers have been seen to date.

The 6th Duplex has a flat top 3. Yours does not.

You most likely have a part 7th duplex and the CDS section can be sen at the left.

The error Numeral 538 which is rated RRRR also has a flat top 3. It was possibly made in error for a 558 and believed used briefly at Stoneyford.
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Re: Victoria 1d 1905 Barrel 538 Value

Post by Bunge »

arcadien wrote:Dear All,

Long time I havent been here ! I hope you are all well.
I am back into the philately and I was going through my Victoria stamps and found
this 1d 1905 Barrel 538: that is "538 CARLTON .....RRRRR Non duplex with large thick figures."

Dead Link Removed

What would the value be of the stamp ?

Thanks in advance and kind regards

:D ArcadieN :D

Hi ArcadieN, I'd put my money on the 7th Duplex..

Cheers Bunge :P
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by RLMS »

I am looking for help with this 78 St Kilda. It appears to be 78(3) but this is supposed to be for 1871 or earlier, well before this stamp was issued. The later duplex all have side bars which are not present here.

No doubt I am missing something obvious! :)

Image

Many thanks,

Richard
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by RLMS »

Hi

I am looking for more information on this machine cancel for Sydney GPO. It appears to be from the Robertson Machine trial of 1907/8. Is this similar to the machine " After extensive trials a 'Robertson' machine was ordered. Completed on October 1st 1903 (at a cost of £61 9s 9d) it was installed in the Wellington Chief Post Office." (From a post by Chippin 'Were NZ flag cancels c1900 made with a Columbia machine?')

Image

Any detail on this would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by mcgooley »

RLMS wrote:I am looking for help with this 78 St Kilda. It appears to be 78(3) but this is supposed to be for 1871 or earlier, well before this stamp was issued. The later duplex all have side bars which are not present here.

No doubt I am missing something obvious! :)

Image


Many thanks,

Richard
The "obvious" thing is that post offices held most of their cancellers for a considerable period (unless lost, damaged or stolen) - e.g. Geelong's butterfly '15' could be applied per favour into the 1940s; and many post offices held their barred numeral cancellers until the clean-out occasioned by the separation of the P.M.G. in 1975 - so it wasn't unusual for a canceller to be dragged out for use when needed.

The most important thing to remember is that it's less impossible to find an early issue cancellation on a later-issue stamp than vice-versa.
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by RLMS »

In answer to my own post for anyone interested!!

I have found the patent details in 1905 for the Robertson machine. The Chief Clerk of the New Zealand Post office, Mr. D. Robertson developed the machine which was as efficient as the 'Barr-Fyke' machine (from USA) and cheap - each machine was costed at £25.

The new Robertson machine canceller came into use in June, 1902 and worked in tandem with the 'Barr-Fyke' machine. The cancellation has the circular town date stamp with seven horizontal lines containing the letters 'N.Z.'.

One machine was sold to the Straights Settlements in 1914 and, whilst I cannot find any record, I suppose a machine was sent to Sydney in 1907 with the 'NZ' replaced by a '2'.

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Grange »

RLMS wrote:Hi

I am looking for more information on this machine cancel for Sydney GPO. It appears to be from the Robertson Machine trial of 1907/8. Is this similar to the machine " After extensive trials a 'Robertson' machine was ordered. Completed on October 1st 1903 (at a cost of £61 9s 9d) it was installed in the Wellington Chief Post Office." (From a post by Chippin 'Were NZ flag cancels c1900 made with a Columbia machine?')

Image

Any detail on this would be greatly appreciated.

Richard
Richard

There was an article in Issue No. 130 of Sydney Views - Journal of the Australian States Study Circle, Royal Sydney Philatelic Club (Feb. 2016) written by Frank Anderson, on the Sydney Numbered Machine Cancels.

I have searched high and low for my copy since I read your post yesterday. However, for the life me I have been unable to locate.

Tony

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by RLMS »

Tony

Thanks for trying, I will see what else I can find. I wonder what the results of the trial were.

Richard
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Grange »

RLMS wrote:Tony

Thanks for trying, I will see what else I can find. I wonder what the results of the trial were.

Richard
Richard

From what I recall there were problems with wear, hence their relatively short life.

You can probably get a copy of the article/issue through the Secretary (contact details on the Philas website) or online through the National Library of Australia (more expensive option however facilitated on line). I am sorry I haven't been able to locate. Hope I haven't thrown it out.

Tony

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by RLMS »

This looks to be 198, Ellerslie 1878 - 1905. Or is it 98, Middleton, with a heavy side bar?

Image

If Ellerslie, was the PO on Elerslie Road, Battery Point in Hobart?

Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Aerial »

Hi
I am wanting to identify these numeral cancels on these KGV 1d Reds. I believe that 722 is Canterbury and 888 is Minyip, however I don't know the others. I have used retro reveal images but if other versions of the image are required or images of individual stamps are required let me know. I apologize for the extraneous bit on the first image but am having trouble with Photo Bucket. If someone can assist or point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated.

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Image
Cheers

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by mcgooley »

1686: Angustown
722: Canterbury duplex
888: Minyip, second duplex
612: Corop
275: Romsey duplex
63: Murchison, first duplex
1008: Morwell second duplex
53: Kangaroo Ground (second issue) non-duplex
879: Tatura second duplex
604: Chatsworth

All the above are known to have been used well into the Commonwealth period - some continued usage into the 1920s
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Aerial »

Thanks mcgooley for such a quick reply, much appreciated.
Cheers

Aerial

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Stewart »

G,day,
Can anybody assist me to with information about the cancellation on the attached cover.
Regards
Stewart

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Bunge »

Hi Stewart, that's a Squared Circle cancel from Quorn SA, it's the last SC cancel too..

SC8 ~ 28mm ~ Index 1 - 4
Known Usage ~ 26/7/1904 - 12/3/1912 ~ Rated V ( 100 + copies considered to exist)

Cheers Bunge :P
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Stewart »

Thanks for your response Bunge
Regards
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Lundy »

Hi all,

I finally went through all my New South Wales Numeral cancellations and as expected most seemed pretty common, however, I think I am right with these three being:

Image

250 Ulmarra rated 4R, 678 Tooleybuc rated 5R and 1897 Mount Kimo rated 5R - can anybody who has more knowledge of this area confirm?

Thanks all

Lundy :D

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by muttly2011 »

All look good Lundy - nice rarities.
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Lundy
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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Lundy »

Thanks Muttly,

Nice to know I found some better items!

Lundy :D

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Lundy »

Hi all, I meant to also ask if any of these are rated on the Tasmania pictorial issue


Image

Looks like numeral cancels 152, FORMBY (renamed WEST DEVONPORT, or DEVONPORT WEST)

372 THIRLSTANE

59 (1) LAUNCESTON ,(2) MONT ACUTE (renamed GLEN-QUOIN) reallocated to MOUNT LYELL (renamed GORMANSTON)

326 MILLS' REEF

Taken from the states numeral thread

Thanks all

Lundy :D

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Territorian »

Lundy wrote:Hi all, I meant to also ask if any of these are rated on the Tasmania pictorial issue

Image

Looks like numeral cancels 152, FORMBY (renamed WEST DEVONPORT, or DEVONPORT WEST)

372 THIRLSTANE

59 (1) LAUNCESTON ,(2) MONT ACUTE (renamed GLEN-QUOIN) reallocated to MOUNT LYELL (renamed GORMANSTON)

326 MILLS' REEF

Taken from the states numeral thread

Thanks all

Lundy :D
Some nice cancels Lundy! Two of them are rated and are quite rare:

''326'' which was allocated to Mill's Reef/Daniel's Bay is rated RRR by Hardinge (reference is 'The Courier', number 51, June 2011)

''372'' was allocated to Thirlstane rated RRRR

Well done! These are rare postmarks!

Cheers,
Mike

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Lundy »

Thanks Mike,

Always good to know I have picked up some better ones along the way!

I will scan up the others I have when I get chance ,

All the best

Lundy :D

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by Global Administrator »

Well done Lundy .... I'll see your RRR and raise you RRRR. :lol: :lol:

Added this beauty to stock today. :mrgreen:
Image
Tasmania *UNIQUE* strike, First Allocation Barred Numeral “48” in *RED*: On a 1855 Large Star Watermark 1d QV Chalon: A rare stamp, with ANY cancel - worth near this with a common numeral! Attractive imperf example of the pretty London printed Perkins Bacon 1855 1d Deep Carmine. SG 14 cat £900, just into along top. A lovely clear and razor sharp full strike, in bold ORANGE VERMILLION ink, and complements the stamp colour wonderfully.

Believed to have been struck during the brief period of use of this number at Hobart, and presumed to have been the Clerk wrongly stamping a letter with the red ink pad, supposed to have been used for the “SHIP LETTER” markings. Clean and fresh, crisp plate impression, no hinge remains to hid defects or repairs, or creases or thins or tears and is from RH side of sheet and has vertical margin lines in addition to the large Star Wmk.

Rarity Rated “RRRR”, and the only example of “48” recorded in this colour. Superb recess/engraved printed by Perkins Bacon in London. 162 years old now, and a striking looking copy of a rare stamp, with a UNIQUE cancel in RED, at highest rated RRRR rarity. Single copies of only 2 other Numerals of EITHER allocation in RED are recorded.

A “60” of Launceston, which is very heavily admixed with black ink (50% of detail is BLACK!) and a part strike of “62” of Hobart”. Launceston and Hobart GPOs were the only Tasmania POs to possess RED ink pads in this era. Indeed, NO Red cancels are known of any Second Allocation numerals. A $500 “RRRR” cancel even on a common stamp in Red with a strike this upright and superb - and on a SG £900 base price stamp, a gem! (Stock 286KQ)
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by josto »

Hi!

I found some Victoria numeral postmarks on KGV issues. Can anyone tell me, if any of these are rated or are rated on Commonwealth issues? I think they should be:

1. KGV 1d red with numeral 854 of Bonang

Image

2. KGV 1d red with numeral 403 of Oxley

Image

3. KGV 1d red with numeral 2098 of Millgrove

Image

4.KGV 1 1/2d brown with numeral 902 of Mologa

Image

Thanks very much

josto

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Re: Australian States numeral postmarks/cancels resource thr

Post by phoebes »

I have this grubby postal card with a Myaring, Victoria postmark and Merino backstamp. Would it be right to guess that the barred numeral strikes are 1836 (4R) if they could be read?

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Image

Many thanks :)
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