Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:How's this for a new marketing ploy?

Image

In words "catalogue $200, vary scarce $149.

In figures asking "$329, discounted 35% now $213.85, you save $115.15"

Even if the quoted catalogue was US$200, and there's no good reason to do that on ebay.au; that would only be about A$285.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-1913-3d-Olive-1st-wmk- ... Sw2GlXLEIj

Any one want to offer A$149 to see what happens?

''A little knowledge is dangerous'',
as someone once said. :lol:

The ACSC is not always correct. Or even close. This is a VERY rare stamp. Only TWENTY sheets of the 3d were sold in CTO.

The idiotic Bozic ACSC ''$200'' price of just 4 times the Die 1 CTO level is just that - totally idiotic. To be even handed. the $200 it might just be a typo for ''$2000'', as with normal Die 2 being $400 that is about right.

If Die 2 in normals is 13 times a Die 1 in ACSC, this clearly should be at least a pricey stamp in Die 2 and CTO. Anyone with detailed KNOWLEDGE of these issues realises that is just a starting point.

For goodness sakes a NON CTO 3d Die 3 is cat $400 in rough postal used! I have a dozen of those in stock. So this is more like a ~$2,000 stamp in CTO, if a real Die 2 - which it is.

''Knowledge Is Power.'' I've seen ONE of these in 20 years. Can you show me another for sale GLOBALLY at any price? THAT is the test of value.

I may even buy it myself. And it will then be a $A350 (or more) stamp. And still be cheap. :mrgreen:
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by satsuma »

You are welcome to do that.

It may well be the bargain of the century thus far. My point was what has the $149 quoted got to do with anything?

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

It was reduced to $149

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
Just listed this sexy looking Victoria stamp "Pastels" set - a couple of which have upright and sideways watermarks Kellow says do not exist! (Stock 782KQ)

More relevant to this CTO thread is that NONE of these cancel dates are noted on these stamps in the superb new Kellow/Turner/McCredie hard cover handbook on Specimens and CTOs etc. They list about 15 known dates for each - but NONE of these 5. Amazing. 8)

Only 6000 sets of these ever printed, and near all were used fiscally. In my humble view THE most attractive set ever issues from any State.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Mark Houston wrote:
alex_c_y1977 wrote:
Mark Houston wrote:
alex_c_y1977 wrote:Good afternoon all (from London)

Another recent purchase of 1/4d CofA watermark with "C'wealth Offices VIC" CTO - with full MUH gum.

Noted that the new ACSC catalogue doesn't list any C'wealth Offices CTO stamps - I guess it will probably remain a bit of mystery of the purposes of this CTO cancel!

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Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex,
Well done finding the CWEALTH cancel.

Did you find it in London?

C'WEALTH OFFICES had their own date stamp, but didn't use it on general correspondence or it would be common.

My best guess is that Member's of Parliament had per favour cancels applied for friends or O/S visitors for a short period in the early 30's

Post Office probably stopped them.

Any other guesses are welcome.
Hi Mark

I actually bought it on ebay - I am still keeping a close eye on this particular type of CTO and try to acquire any copies that become available :)

It is a pity that the new ACSC catalogue doesn't list C'wealth Offices CTO stamps. But I suppose this can work in our advantage to pick up bargains, as I am sure many people still have no idea about this type of CTO and probably would think it as a normal used stamp!

And your guess certainly sounds feasible - especially if this same cancel was applied to the 4½d Die II stamps, for sure it must be done for some special presentation purposes? From all the copies that I have seen (from my own copies and copies from other members shown here, where I can see the date), the date are all done in 3 (or 5?) AP 39.

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And I remember you have posted a block of 4 of the 4½d die II with the same cancel, also dated 3(?) AP 39 as well.

So it seems all these were done in April 1939 as an one-off for some unknown reason....

Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex,
I have put a picture up of all the CWEALTH cancels I am aware of .

Added to yours this represents the known issues to this thread.

Seven 5/- bridges and six 4½d Die 2's should give hope to other collector's
that others are about if they are keen to search.

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Bought this cool 5/- Bridge today, with the same "C'WEALTH OFFICES - VIC" cds date all the others seem to have - "3 APR 39". (Stock 792AC)

Never had one of these before! At $495 I consider it a steal, if normal postal used are ACSC cat $500! :mrgreen:

Glen
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Kiwidude »

Hi there,

I'm after an opinion please.
Is the COFA 5/- a CTO ???? I'm showing un gummed rear too. Not sure on the dates. Might be just a nice postmark

ImageImage
The 9d is a COFA as well but has full gum.I can post picture of gum if needed.I'm thinking.

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The same lot also has a COFA 6d brown & a 2/- maroon Both with gum & hinged

Are the prices strong for these.?

I'll show them tomorrow. If these are COFA.
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

The 5/- is not even close to CTO. The bad surface scuffing, red Registered crayon remnants, and 5mm tear, and wrong cancel tell us that. Value a dollar or so damaged.

CTO is below.
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https://glenstephens.com/snjune19.html

The very nearly Superb Used 5/- Kangaroo shown nearby is in stock for $A60, and I have a dozen similar copies here for $A50-$60 each. That is HALF the price of the current Australia Post Year Album at your post office! What will THAT be worth in 20 years? And not so great copies are only $A20 each, so even bi-colour Kangaroos do not need to be expensive USED. MINT hinged they are $A300.


Horrid Centring on the 9d makes it also worth a dollar or two sadly. :idea:

Glen
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

2 recent purchases to share:

5d CofA watermark GPO Melbourne CTO block of four

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

4d violet Brisbane CTO, with variety "Horned" emu 2R17

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Cheers
Alex

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Some of my recent purchases
4d KGV violet Brisbane CTO with selvedge

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Pair of 3d Kangaroo Brisbane CTO

Image

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Clive wrote:
Image Image
I'm beginning to wonder if in fact these were steel cancellers. Especially looking at the 4d orange. As Peter said, this cancel is sort of mid-way between the original MELBOURNE steel and the rubber 'type 2' cancel used for the low value first watermark Roos.

I'd go further: I think the canceller used in 1915 was rubber. That would account for the rapid wear, as well as the inevitable heavy and/or blotchy cancels found on so many of the stamps.

Also worth mentioning that Arthur Gray's CTO second watermark Roos, illustrated on page 17 of this thread, have this cancel.

For whatever reason, the canceller was retired after June 1915, but in my view it was because, like the type 2 rubber canceller used in December 1913, it just didn't stand up to the wear.

Clive
To add to Clive's point this lovely 4d orange I listed up here today seems to bear that out! Lower sections of NE letters, seem to bear that out.
Image

Aust 4d KGV INVERTED WMK - also with CTO cancel $A45
What a delightful stamp – it truly leapt out, on the album page it was on!

INVERTED watermark, and also with the official PO special CTO cancel, which was dated (JA) 21 :1915

Also has the lovely ANILINE WWI Emergency use ink that suffuses to the reverse – a lovely looking stamps in the flesh! It GLOWS. Clean and fresh and free of all aging, faults, and gook, so usual on these Century+ old issues! (Stock 782LQ)
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by rsellens »

This is another of these that Glen sold in 2014 showing wear to the "URNE".

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And Kevin Morgan has this one for sale at the moment. The "M" is non existent and the "E" and "15" are well worn.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by satsuma »

Some more to consider
Image

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

A lovely lot of 4d Orange there guys. :)
Global Administrator wrote:
satsuma wrote:How's this for a new marketing ploy?

Image

In words "catalogue $200, vary scarce $149.

In figures asking "$329, discounted 35% now $213.85, you save $115.15"

Even if the quoted catalogue was US$200, and there's no good reason to do that on ebay.au; that would only be about A$285.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-1913-3d-Olive-1st-wmk- ... Sw2GlXLEIj

Any one want to offer A$149 to see what happens?

''A little knowledge is dangerous'',
as someone once said. :lol:

The ACSC is not always correct. Or even close. This is a VERY rare stamp. Only TWENTY sheets of the 3d were sold in CTO.

The idiotic Bozic ACSC ''$200'' price of just 4 times the Die 1 CTO level is just that - totally idiotic. To be even handed. the $200 it might just be a typo for ''$2000'', as with normal Die 2 being $400 that is about right.

If Die 2 in normals is 13 times a Die 1 in ACSC, this clearly should be at least a pricey stamp in Die 2 and CTO. Anyone with detailed KNOWLEDGE of these issues realises that is just a starting point.

For goodness sakes a NON CTO 3d Die 2 is cat $400 in rough postal used! I have a dozen of those in stock. So this is more like a ~$2,000 stamp in CTO, if a real Die 2 - which it is.

''Knowledge Is Power.'' I've seen ONE of these in 20 years. Can you show me another for sale GLOBALLY at any price? THAT is the test of value.

I may even buy it myself. And it will then be a $A350 (or more) stamp. And still be cheap. :mrgreen:
Bought a lovely one of these today, genuine Die 2, (most are NOT!) Melbourne CTO in an old collection. I see one only each few years.

Must memo Geoff Kellow to fix the typo they have in there now. :idea:

Glen
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by JLEEFE »

Might be a silly question and accept it if it is but found these amongst the collection and with the CTO of Melbourne was wondering if they counted as part of what is being posted here

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

No Jon. These are just everyday use type Melbourne postmarks as opposed to the distinct type canceller used for the CTO's.
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by JLEEFE »

Thanks - Ubobo - appreciate it

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by abctoo »

Here are images of a stamp I recently relocated, an Official CTO "OS" perfined 10/- Kangaroo, perf 11 1/2 x 12, with the "S" having 11 perforations. Scott calls it "Wmk. 10", Narrow Crown and Narrow A, and I think this is what the Australian catalogues call "Wmk. 3". I had it expertized years ago.

I have three questions. (1) Can someone provide an image of the complete CTO? (2) Can anyone provide a scan of the catalogue page so I can verify the attribution? (3) A look at the third image (which I tried to modify to create a better image of the watermark) shows a horizontal watermark frame line just below the word "narrow" someone had written. Can someone provide a scan of information about these watermark frame lines? Much appreciated.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Kainnikanada »

abctoo,

The watermark line is often found on stamps from the edges of a pane of 60 cliches where the watermark has shifted sufficiently to be seen on the stamp. The top horizontal row might show the line at the top of the stamp, the first column might have it at the left side etc.

Since your stamp has the line at its base it's from pane positions 55-60. Could be either Left or Right pane. Since the 'Crown/A' is shifted to the right we can exclude position 55 - the vertiical line should be there if from that cliche. The watermark line is usually 3-5mm from the edge/top of the crown.

I'll prepare something and post it on the "Flaws on AUST Kangaroos?" thread for you to view. Here's the link:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4131
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by amfhf1 »

A nice block do not own too many blocks so was happy to get this one off eBay

ACSC 101w

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by gregbear61 »

A nice piece showing the Miller Bros. cancel of 24 MR XX.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by josto »

Hello,

does anyone know if there is a cat. value for these high values as CTOs? I couldn`t find the high values in my older SG.

Image

Thanks a lot

josto

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by josto »

josto wrote:Hello,

does anyone know if there is a cat. value for these high values as CTOs? I couldn`t find the high values in my older SG.

Image

Thanks a lot

josto
Hi!

Ups, I just had a look in a new SG and found them! :oops:

Although I don`t know which watermarks there are, I think there is a quite high cat. value for these. If I calculated right, the cheapest cat. value for these CTOs is about 3000£!? :shock:

Greetings

josto

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by abctoo »

Maybe I found my second precancel. The 3 1/2 d. is full gum. The other two have no gum. Can somebody tell me?

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Hello fellow CTO enthusiasts!

I just thought id share some of my recent acquisitions of examples from the Goa Archives, of course still on the watermarked card from which they were cut up and sold.

Love to know what you all think! I Think COLONIAS is nice

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Another one of my CTO Items

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Very nice and those handstamped versions are indeed very scarce. I had the set of Small Multi to 1/4d perf ''OS'' in recent times also on piece, even the perf 14 I think.

And plate varieties in CTO are really scarce of course. :)

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by josto »

Another nice plate variety with Melbourne CTO. KGV 4d blue with variety "cracked electro through kangaroo"!

Image

Greetings

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Troy »

josto wrote:Another nice plate variety with Melbourne CTO. KGV 4d blue with variety "cracked electro through kangaroo"!

Image

Greetings
I like that!
If you want to sell this, id be interested.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by abctoo »

Sorry to bother you guys again. Here's another question about some CTO's.

The first scan is of two KGV Heads 1d. green Officials, both watermarked Small Crown & A Multiple and cancelled in 1931.

I cannot tell if either one is a CTO or a regular Melbourne cancel. Your help is appreciated.

Image
The first stamp is cancelled 23 OC 31 and the second 16NO31.

The final scan is of a 9d. blue Tasmania with Official 'T' perfin, watermarked TAS. I cannot find out if this was a presentation piece or not. It is unusual.

It is definitely a perf. 12 1/2, and not a perf. 12 or 11 1/2. All of the catalogues I have access do not recognize a perf 12 1/2 for this issue, though they do mention imperfs were issued.

What do you think?

Image
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Neither 1d is even remotely like any CTO cancel, as a read of this thread would surely have confirmed? :roll:

Start a new thread on the Tassie, this thread is NOT the place for random questions on topics that have zero to do with this thread.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by amfhf1 »

Victoria acsc V120 x block 19

My catalog a little old as its the 2004 edition would it be possible to get an updated value of a single stamp from someone with a newer version.

Also, what do you think the premium would be of a block like this?

Also what is happening to the top row of perfs the middle two the perfs are lower than the left-hand side and higher than the right-hand side.

Thanks for your information in advance.

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Does it make a lot of difference in value if a CTO stamp has gum or not?

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Monogram wrote:Does it make a lot of difference in value if a CTO stamp has gum or not?
Yes and No. WHAT stamp? :roll:
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

amfhf1 wrote:
what is happening to the top row of perfs the middle two the perfs are lower than the left-hand side and higher than the right-hand side.
A good example of the vagaries of the comb perf machine back then!

2004 is the latest - and only - Edition listing these. If full gum which I suspect they have, part of the PO Archive sales.
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Global Administrator wrote:
Monogram wrote:Does it make a lot of difference in value if a CTO stamp has gum or not?
Yes and No. WHAT stamp? :roll:
3rd Watermark small OS full set to £2

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

So you have an original gum £1 Brown and Blue 3rd Watermark perf 'OS' cat $9000? Lucky you.

As you can see, we INSIST on photos here, for quite EXCELLENT reasons. :roll:

Saves a lot of vague and airy fairy posts that in the end mean nothing, and waste everyone's time, as the OP was absurdly vague. :idea:
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Global Administrator wrote:So you have an original gum £1 Brown and Blue 3rd Watermark perf 'OS' cat $9000? Lucky you.

As you can see, we INSIST on photos here, for quite EXCELLENT reasons. :roll:

Saves a lot of vague and airy fairy posts that in the end mean nothing, and waste everyone's time, as the OP was absurdly vague. :idea:
If I purchase the set I will put up scan was just questioning if value would be less for no gum CTO?

Also £1 Brown and Blue 3rd Watermark perf 'OS' does not come CTO third watermark

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

1d Carmine (Aniline) Melb CTO MLH full gum well centered

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

Good evening all
Couple of less often seen CTO stamps recently acquired:

½d orange small multiple watermark p.14 - CTO with MLH gum
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1d green perf OS small multiple watermark p.14 - CTO with MLH gum. This is surprising hard to find... Perf.13.5x12.5 ones are common but try find one with p.14.
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

5d CofA watermark with "Commonwealth Office" CTO cancel - again with MH gum.
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4½d small multiple watermark p.13.5x 12.5 Die II - with ACSC listed variety BW121g "Extension of Inner white border opposite lowest wattle at right (3R12)
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by alex_c_y1977 »

2d brown single watermark CTO block of four - plated as:
16L3, 16L4 (BW97(16)f - large white flaw in LVT), 16L9 (BW97(16)g - bottom frame broken under "P" of "PENCE"), 16L10

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by josto »

Hello,

I found this KGv 1d red die III ACSC 757i "white flaw at base of "1" at left" with a crisp VIC corner postmark. I don`t expect it, but does the KGV 1d red die III exist CTO? I tend to a per favour postmark or just a very nice corner postmark, but would be great to get some opinions.

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Thank you very much

josto

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Have never heard of a Die 3 in any PO packs. :mrgreen:

Does it have gum? Remember that LOTS of steel cancellers all over the State had VIC at base. 8)
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

1st 1/2d Green with Brisbane CTO date stamp Just 16 issued MH with ACSC 1(1)f Large coloured flaw of coast at Sydney

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

July 17 14

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Monogram - some nice pieces!

I guess we should record here for the record, the bullish $2,675 price this truly ugly BRISBANE QUEENSLAND cto just got - from https://glenstephens.com/sndecember19.html
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The demand is unabated, and the recent auction results are gobsmacking really. The very ugly, and humble 1913 ½d green Roo seen nearby, ACSC #1wd, was invoiced way above estimate at $2,675 in the Phoenix Melbourne, November 15, 2019 Auction.

Sadly the ACSC allowed an ebay seller to price these things, and realisations TEN times full ACSC are routine for these cancels. An equally humble 2d Grey, also with no date on the cds, was invoiced for $A2,900 in the same November 15 Phoenix sale.

These Brisbane CTO cancels are all scarce, as only a sheet or so of each were done, and not all of those were distributed. All bear a quarter of the heavyish looking cds cancel of “BRISBANE - 12 NO: 13 - QUEENSLAND”.

I have the 5/- 1913 with the same cancel in stock, (a scarce stamp with ANY cancel) indeed mine shows the date, for a THIRD what the ½d above just sold for! A 1913 £1 with non-dated BRISBANE part cancel was invoiced for $3,250 at the same Phoenix auction.

It is a challenging field, and supply is low, and demand is high. There are MANY different cancel types. The ACSC “Kangaroos” catalogue is a handy guide, despite the Froot Loop prices given to all these BRISBANE cancels, well after strong Auction results had clearly indicated their scarcity, and the red-hot real world prices.
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

And also for the record these were Arthur Gray's main display page - he had other BRISBANE of course.
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For reference, here is the page of Arthur's Gray's BRISBANE QUEENSLAND cancels I scanned here one day when he kindly popped by to allow his collection to be preserved for the record here.

He had the rare low values in PAIRS! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Rob1956 »

Hi Monogram

Very interesting rarities.
Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW. Member ACCC of NSW

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Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Monogram »

Rob1956 wrote:Hi Monogram

Very interesting rarities.
Thanks Rob

Have a interesting article coming up in the ACCC magazine early next year on CTO's

Erik

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