GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discussion

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

I have a query regarding the no cross on crown of the half penny Downey head type 2 with the large crown watermark. It is listed in Stanley Gibbons as SG 340a yellow green. I believe the used one on the right falls into this colour shade, but the one on the left according to my colour key is more like deep green. Is this shade listed in a specialist catalogue?
Secondly I have a Gosforth cancel with K52 duplex is this a common or rare cancel?

Image

Image

Thanks in advance for any replies

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Global Administrator »

Top left mint one looks Deep Green to me anyway. :mrgreen:
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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by phrag99 »

On my screen I think the top left one is green - has to be more intense than that to make it deep green.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hello.
Gosforth is just down the road from me been a Newcastle lad, well nearly as adopted originally from Durham City lol
I can't help you if it's a rare postmark. I've not seen that many as a late use in August, 13 before as this spoon/ sideways duplex type originated in 1887 or later.
British Post Office Numbers confirms K52. as Gosforth and Collect British Postmarks by DR JT Whitney on page 40 highlights cancellation type 119 as Duplex Cancellation Town Round Datestamp, Upright Oval 3 or 4 Bars.
My edition is from 1983 and it states add £1.50 if on cover as 1/2d or 1d.
I think you have a lovely Die II stamp there, with a well struck position on the pair. The K52. Looks great over the top of KGVth's head.
That's the best I can offer on this piece. Lovely number and a pleasure to see, and happy collecting on your Downey's.
Good Evening. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Many thanks for all the replies. Many thanks Lee for the detailed information.

Does your literature state when the last duplex type cancel was used in Great Britain?

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi Dani,

No probs at all, pleasure to help out a little. I also tried to upload a photo from my iphone but could work out who to that, so some advice would be appreciated my end if you know.

Regarding the Duplex use, I dont know at all, as I think the sorting offices etc phased them out over a period of years. I have two Royal Cyphers on piece with a 1/2d green, and 2d that has a spoon cancel from around 1928.... Actually they are block cypher, not Royal... This was something I picked up on ebay as late use of the cancellation.

Is your search to find out a little more on the piece or for value on the item. on ebay Emartenet has loads of Downey cancellations for sale. He could be a chap to contact, he cant be two difficult to gain understanding from.. I guess worry if he says its only worth a £5 and wants to buy it lol...

Either way its a little corker, and my feeling is, the novelty of it is maybe more appealing than value.

I will have a look at some other literature tonight and see if I can come up with anything further.

L

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Thanks for the info Lee.

In terms of uploading a picture you need to do it through a third party site. I use http://imgur.com/ . You will need to register, which is free, then upload pictures to your account.
When you upload, you need to select the 'Auto resize' option from a drop down menu to 15-inch monitor. The press the button that says 'Computer' at the top of the screen to upload an image from your computer to their site. Select your image then upload. Then once you have uploaded the image click on the image and choose the link under the title 'BBCode (message boards & forums)'. Copy the code and paste it into your message on Stampboards. You can check you have done this correctly by pressing the preview button to see what your post will look like. To summarize.

1) Open an account on imgur.com or similar site.
2) Select the 15 inch monitor option for uploading.
3) Upload the image by pressing 'Computer'.
4) Click the uploaded image.
5) Copy the link code under the heading 'BBCode (message boards & forums)'.
6) Paste the link into your message on Stampboards
7) Preview the post to check it has uploaded to Stampboards correctly.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi Dani.
Thanks for this.
I've gone through all my own Picture Post Cards and found one with a duplex. This is B77. Bebside Cowpen Lane, all the others are before KGVth's reign of 1911. This duplex I have is 02nd Oct, 1912. PPC's with Downeys are quite rare also against Edward and Royal or Block Cypher printings.
Other than that I have had a look through 1000's of KGVth ppc's, and mails today in a local stamp shop and not many Duplex's exist on material at all after 1911.
The owner informed me that they are in use through to the 20's but these must be very scare during this period.
You're stamps make up a 1d rate so they must of originated on an envelope of some form, against the mail weight to value ratio at that time leaving Gosforth and heading "destination unknown",
I am now believing that the Duplex on Downey is a rare beast to be seen. A bloody well done for aquiring that.
I am due to take collection of a range of Downeys on Piece in a weeks time. I will see if that throws up anything.
Have a good evening. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi. Dani,
I've managed to look up and come across several Duplex cancels on the 1/2d and 1d Downey. As I tend to use these forums with my iPhone and the trouble with uploading images. I will try you're method next week.
Do you have an email address and I will send a couple images over.
Do you have any other 1911/13 Duplex cancels or after on Downeys, it would be nice to see them or if anyone does for that matter.
Happy Duplex Hunting.
Kind Regards. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi. All where can I locate the like of this table formatted information of when, where and what of each Downey plate put to press please.
Thanks in advance.
Kind Regards. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by skilo54 »

I have several duplex singles and the more precious pairs in my collection. I will try to drum up some time to scan them.

Have a good one,

Skilo54

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Image
Image 1 of 4, off a friends write up of Downey Heads from First day off issue, June 22nd , 1911
I know Skilo was asking for some a while back. Just getting used to the forum so sorry for the delays. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Image
Image
Image
2, 3 and 4 of 4.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Hello Lee,

Thanks for these uploads, they are very impressive, especially the OHMS cover. Unfortunately I only have, at the moment, one duplex shown above.

Out of curiosity does anybody have a duplex on any George VI
Regards

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi folks. Here is a couple of Duplex cancels on 1/2d and 1d Downeys. A couple of the envious full cancellation and the remainder are slightly clipped or single items. I haven't checked the locations yet but thought I would just upload the image for your views.
Happy Monday's
L
Image

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Skilo, attached is s couple of images of recent purchases that are original collection slotted up from the Oswald Marsch sales many years ago.
Fabulous stuff. The 1/2ds have obviously been rummaged through over the years as all the perfectly struck cds's have been taken. Still finding little things within though to make it worth my while. All in all around 20,000 stamps that's the interesting cancels lot. Another bag has been filled with line cancels and have around half of the purchase still to sort.
The cotton bundles have been wrapped since around 1920 (apparently), I open one and picked flaws and watermarks straight out. So I am guessing this comment is true.
Still even if I find niceties, I will be a happy chap. Regards. L
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Image

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Hello Lee,

That's a huge amount of stamps to sort. Do you know where I can purchase similar single issue lots or stock from, perhaps not so many? I usually find large mixed lots that don't really appeal to me.

If you would rather not put up a link you can email me the info if you prefer. Just press the email button under the post.

Many thanks.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi Dani.
I actually secured the full lot for myself at a big price.
What I could do is see about another box, I know they have but that isn't anywhere near the quality - the seller said this to me direct in conversation when I was humming over the current purchases.
I maybe able to get a look at it prior to buying as they are quite good with this sort of thing. I will email them tomorrow and see what they have left. They may ship it to me at my cost to take a look at.
We could go halfs on it or something, with it been a major kiloware collection we could just split it by weight or something.
A guy on the Internet called Emartenet is selling bundles at £75 per 100 stamps. I feel this a tad too steep tbf. I bid have some discussion, but that went dead, as was only looking for certain cancels at the time.
As rough shoot how much would you be looking to pay. You can email direct on this if you wish. Regards. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Many thanks for the info.

Emartenet is actually selling bundles of 100 at £75 per 600 stamps.
This is about 12p per stamp which for a used Downey head is neither expensive nor cheap. I doubt there will be of much interest there. This seller is an experienced philatelist who knows a lot about British stamps and also sells select group and individual British items.

I am always dubious about buying so called unchecked kilo ware on ebay. I am more interested in the price and type of auction posted by 'Tony GB' a few pages back in which he says: 'I bought a lot of these subject stamps [many thousands] at a recent postal action for £30, you may imagine my surprise & pleasure when they arrived & I found just under half were Bluish-green'. That seems to be a genuine kilo ware lot at a good price.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi Dani.

Yes I emailed him for discussion about the bundles. As with you I wasn't impressed at the value, I guess hunting around may allow achievement else where, but eBay ain't the right place.

The biggest point in this is if you don't buy; you don't get too see, but wasting you're money sorta Pi$$e$ you off at the same time, additionally everyone's value in that ratio is different also.

None of the bundle wear has come from eBay and neither has it been listed there (to my knowledge).

What a find with TonyGB I never read that post. Interesting though to say that success does come from it. I haven't even started on the shades yet as I am still organising the cancellations out.

Once they are at the stage I will scan each stamp under a Scope for little errors, most Of what I find will be unlisted with little nicks, dashes and flaws but they are evident within them.

That's what I enjoy looking for, is the flaws from the printing plates. It would be nice to align some that ain't in SGssc as the 100 or so constant and many non constant that actually deserve recognition.

Such flaws may have been repaired or only appeared in certain states prior to them been fixed.

They tend to be cheaper finding them On used these days as generally they have been spotted and priced accordingly on the mint copies.

Lee
Last edited by Global Administrator on 15 Apr 2015 11:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added pars and spacing to this gob of text.

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A Million Downey Heads

Post by LeeRoy »

Dear All,

I am left pondering this evening trying to make sense of all the possibilities in creating an adequate database reference system for my Downey Heads.

Effectively to help pinpoint a starting point of what I personally own now, what I can try to amass collecting wise myself over the years, then there is learning what I may see in philatelic libraries/collections, forums like this, and what other collectors happily posses, post, write about in their fine collections, and knowingly but unknowingly, all that I may never know, see or hear about.

To the point, as the basic Downey shades run from N1 to N13 they reference the key dies and watermark items available for an average basic collection, with reference to shade following.

But what happens when the basic collection is taken a stage further, by a somewhat avid collector such as our selves, he or she can see this extrapolated by various factors; including firstly Control Numbers, then the varying Perforation Types, & differing printings (Some with the same Control Number) by either Harrison or Somerset House, then we can talk Watermark Types / Varieties to name a few.

There is also the Unlisted but know shades, and not to mention the fabulous Plate Numbers put to press.

All of a sudden what was 65 or so basic shades can be multiplied out to well Infinity.

I know that is an exaggeration to some extent but what I am trying to do is create a mindset of an easy method database wise to highlight what I own, and what I hope to collect by giving myself some direction and clarity in a well constructed reference system for identification against stamps and the understanding of them, by documenting what is on each piece. This will aid in writing up my bottom rows and more later on down the line.

I'm sure other factors exist the we can include from the likes of paper types to constant or non constant flaws, even taking into consideration overprinted for use abroad (Nauru, Bechuanaland, Morocco etc etc).

If some of you can shed light on where to start that would be great. For me the importance comes in control number, printer, shade and the plate markings added when put to press, and with constant / non constant of primary importance too.

The future of my buying, well I know I will need somewhat very deep pockets to allow me to even begin amassing a great library of my own Downey Heads.

I'm sure this question must be in the grey matter of every Downey serious fanatic out there in the world today, or maybe just me in Tynemouth tonight.

What I may do is add this to a couple of discussion boards to see what it throws up.

I hope you're all well and not to bored in reading this mathematical conundrum on this fine evening.

Stamping Wishes Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Dear All
Not a bad little find at all in this Used stock that I have picked up. What appears to be a Die 2 Watermark Crown in a nice Deeper Green shade N4(3). It was the shade that caught my eye, the other day. Anyhow I thought I would turn it over and low and behold this appears clear as day light as a 'Print on Back' moving around 2mm in a South East direction.
Image
The front shows what is a Small section of a nice well struck Bradford CDS. What is even more weird from looking is that the upper left 1/2 above 'Postage' is exhibiting early signs of N1c (in the same location) White Blob Right of Left 1/2, although very minute it is evident.
Image
Any comments would be greatly appreciated please !!
Thanks in Advance. Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by europhil »

Well all the lettering is reversed, so it's not printed on the back.
Probably still had gum on it, causing most of the stamp with the
wavy line cancel to adhere to it. When separated, this was the
result. A good hot soak might clean it up.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

HaHaaaa James.
You have just squashed any notion that I thought it was a winning stamp find. I now see what you re talking about. So thanks for that and pointing that out.
Back to the drawing board.
Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Can somebody tell me what type of cancellation this is please?

Image

I've seen it on numerous British stamps, and I am aware that the date and location are usually part of the wider cancellation, but what I want to know more specifically is this regarded as a machine cancellation?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by BremhillBob »

This thread is a great read - thank you to all who have contributed.

I don’t know if anyone can help me or if you can suggest someone who might but .....

I have amassed quite a few pages of Downey Heads, probably about a hagner side for each SG number variety (with obvious exceptions eg Analine). Most of what I have is (badly?) used but I have an average of about 10 mint for each of the dozen plate/watermark combinations. My intention was to try and get one example of each of the N numbers in the Specialised catalogue so that I had some sort of reference for colour/shade at least.

I suspect that I actually have a lot of the same stamp because the colour differences are quite subtle and probably the result of fading or dirt rather than ink.

What I’d like is HELP! I wonder if someone with some expertise would be prepared to sit down with me and go through them with a view to identifying them properly? I would also be interested in buying to ‘fill the gaps’ and/or would be happy to pay someone for their time. (I'm in North Wiltshire, England). OR it might be that someone has already built a 'reference chart' and could scan/photocopy that so that I can see the sort of think I'm looking for - I just can't get on with colour charts I'm sorry to say.

Failing that it might be that you could offer an approval selection of samples that could ‘point me in the right direction”?

Bob

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi All,
As a avid collector of Downey Heads, I was wondering if anyone of you kind folk out there had some decent size control blocks for sale. In particular I am looking for bottom rows, lower control rows from the bottom parts of the sheet; rows 17 through to 20 (bottom 5 or so), or anything nice In a mixed bulk lot please, with or without controls.
Thanks in advance.
Kind Regards Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

This Downey Head has multiple printing flaws or plate flaws. There are five flaws that I have noticed.

1 Top left hand corner white dot among horizontal lines.
2 Top right hand corner break in the inner frame.
3 Broken letters of U and E in 'REVENUE'.
4 A white line breaking the E of 'PENNY' and box.
5 Minor dot in the thick frame line above the left hand numeral.

Image

Is this a catalogued flaw or just a random printing flaw?

Any comments and information appreciated.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi Dani,
I would assume that the fly specs as discussed are foreign body particles on the printing plates... Screws, dropped items and the clanking of heavy equipment maybe a key cause for such affects on the surface of the plates put to print. Some of which would of been sent of for repair etc.
On talking with Mike Jackson, these do constitute something of importance, albeit minor flaws. It can very much help describe the location of the stamp, and to what plate it originated from, if they can be aligned with something identical or similar. Douglas Muirs book shows the major Downey runs at the start of his book.
Major stamp collections such as the Royal Mint/Mail Archives, The British Library, Queens Collection, Inland Revenue and more, could help decipher these little conundrums, if they can be investigated to a level with what is still in existence.
The great thing with used items, is that they are proof that an error, flaw or print mistake lead to a sheet been made on sale to the public.
A little convoluted reply, but a great stamp.
I have been going through 1000's of used picking up a myriad of finds like this. Drop me an email, and we can get some further discussion going.
Thanks Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Many thanks for the reply and info Leroy.

So these are just printing flaws, such as dust on the plate and inking issues, rather than any damage to plates; random flaws.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by LeeRoy »

Hi. It can be anything such as;
Clanking the heavy plates around, dropping them and the control wedge onto the surfaces of them
Marks can be made from screws, hand tools etc
Further to this human hair, fluff paper fragments etc
Even the little hole punched discs have found there way on making confetti style white spots about 4mm round.
Loads of reasons exist and in the main it comes down to heavy equipment and human error.
Many of the listed flaws are mistakes made in the die and etched error before it was sent off for repair, back to the mint.
Any questions or if anyone has any beautiful errors I would be ever so intrigued if you could list them for some discussion. Thanks Lee

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Micky »

This thread hasn't been touched for a while.

I found an early Downey Head, Looks to be dated June 26 1911, both ½d and 1d on the cover. Bit hard to read with the seller scan yet the other cd on the reverse is definitely June. Has numerous types of cd's.

What do you think? It's in my holding capsule at moment.
Image
Image

Micky

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by AMark »

All PB images have been replaced in this thread.
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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Micky »

Hi all, found the below for sale, looks ok from front except for the HUGE tear of course. Looking at the reverse it looks to had a cup of coffee thrown on it or had a spray tan or basting brush re gum, with the dripping affect. Is this the norm or something dodgy going on?

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by skilo54 »

AMark wrote:All PB images have been replaced in this thread.

Thank you kind sir, greatly appreciated!

Hi everyone, looks like I'm back and ready than ever to talk about these lovely treasures!

Have a good one,
Skilo54

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Kainnikanada »

skilo54 wrote: Hi everyone, looks like I'm back and ready than ever to talk about these lovely treasures!
Have a good one,
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Welcome back.
Looking for NSW cut-down relief date stamps, as seen in my avatar, to add to my collection.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by honza »

Ahoj skilo54!

Welcome back! We missed your friendly personality.

Here is a cover I scanned for Delcampe.

Image

This is a cover from E. Muller, Chiswell Street, London E.C. to a firm in Steinschönau , Bohemia. Now Kamenický Šenov in the Czech Republic

It bears three early KGV definitives. They appear to be SG 344 and 341 x 2, but on cover it is difficult to be sure.

They are cancelled by a machine cancellation of London E.C. , dated FEB 20 3J, the year seems to be missing.

Some scuffs & creases, particularly at right.


That is the description but I have a further question. How was the year represented in this type of Krag cancellation? 3J is a code where you would expect the year to be and the thirties would appear much too late for use by a commercial business.

Cheers,

Honza

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by mozzerb »

A question prompted by this cover, franked with an Edward VII ½d and Downey Head 1ds from both Die 1A and Die 1B (so very likely philatelic):

Image

The catalogue gives only "August 1911" for the date of issue of die 1B -- i.e. it was an emergency change that wasn't announced and was released as soon as possible. This is dated 17th August, so could be very early or two weeks or more after earliest use. Asking around the George V specialists I know produced no earlier dates (although one other example of 17th August).

So can anyone show an earlier example, or point me to a source where someone has a record of the earliest date?

For reference, the Die 1A stamp:

Image

And the Die 1B stamp:

Image

(Question previously posted in its own thread, where no-one came up with info on the date, but someone did do a pretty good job of identifying the addressee)

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" - A Detailed look & Discussion

Post by Mike Jackson »

tallanent wrote:Somerset House Printings

Given that there appears to be some confusion over the assignment of Somerset House printings compared to those of Harrisons, I thought that some additional notes may assist here ...

Three types of control are generally listed ..

1 .. A 11 which is assigned for those printed at Somerset House

2 .. A 11(c) - Harrisons with 1 1/2mm gap between the two figure 1's

3 .. A 11(w) - Harrisons with 2mm gap

For the record - all the examples I have seen of Somerset House (control with dot) have the 2mm gap.

The records show that the Somerset House printings were made from plates 3, 9 and 15 - and we know that these plates were later re-worked in some way as plates 3b, 3c, 9b and 15b are known. Hence the original plates are known to collectors as plates 3a, 9a and 15a.

As already mentioned plates 9a and 15a (SH) had the additional rule at the bottom and the two items shown together show that these plates can be ruled out.
Image
The following shows that the spacing between the figures is the same -- 2mm
Image
With these two plates excluded, we are only left with the original state of plate 3, (what collectors call plate 3a) and I would contend that the cut on the right side rule was added to a repaired plate - and regardless of which plate this was - it was not printed from in this state at Somerset House.

As a side note - that by reading through some of these post - seems to have been overlooked - I will restate that Somerset House printings have the dot. If you look at the Gibbons specialised catalogue for the controls for this issue (die 1b) it is actually shown ... albeit that they use a very small font and you do have to look closely ...

ALLAN
I agree with Allan's descriptions of the controls but the plating information in the Stanley Gibbons Specialised Catalogue, Volume 2, needs updating. The plates known to collectors as Plates 3a, 9a and 15a are Official Plates 44/106, 39/101 and 40/102 respectively. These three plates were put to press only at Somerset House and were not delivered to the contractors (Harrison). Regarding the 1d Die 1b, the catalogue recognises 16 plates, but 18 were put to press. The three Somerset House plates should be added to the 16 to make 19, which means one too many, so one plate in the listing must be a state of another plate. The obvious candidate is Plate 1 which is described as having no printer's marking, and could be an early state of one of the other plates. However, I have a large block comprising the bottom two rows, with no marking, but I cannot match it to any other plate — this is where tiny "fly-speck" plate flaws are useful, but I can't find any!

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by Dani »

Hello all, hope this is the right place for this query.

I have this bluish green Downey Head, I believe SG 326 with a LEVANT overprint. It is not listed in my 2013 Commonwealth and British Empire catalogue. Is it listed in a more recent or specialist catalogue. Perhaps it is a forgery?

Image
Image




Regards.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by castores »

Firstly, sorry for posting while there is a current question (and add a new one).
I have few downey KG V heads, zero of the original (semi?) side-face.
I used the 'search' function, for the first time, on downey KG Vs and was astounded at how well it worked, I found this thread (Number 1!)
Kudos to all involved. I have to say the information here is just so thorough. Thank you to all that contributed with the various information, and of course the instigator of this thread.
What a fantastic thread! I have read it front to back, re-reading some parts, takes awhile but well worth it!
It was Australian KG V 1d red side face that first piqued my interest when I re-found my collection.
Now I see the English had something similar.
Prior to this I had posted under another thread regarding certificates and where best to obtain. This post ended up including a 1d red downey KG V SG 419 (watermark 111, block cypher and obviously... the date). Only problem was it had a very distinctive "Q" for "O" which is not listed. Only one listed for SG 419 = SG 419d and there is only an unused value listed.
I'm not saying mine is SG 419d, definately not, however, when you take into account 357a/ab/ac/ad you start to see why I find my stamp so interesting (of course there is also the nick on the bottom frame under the "O" of "ONE").

Image

Image

There are some very learned people who have posted here, I look forward to hearing what you think.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hit 'submit' Still Previewing...
Here is the back/reverse

Image

I have sent an email to SG with these same scans, see what happens... But I would love some input, please. Again, I say, considering the variations of "Q" for "O" this has to pose some questions...

Oh goodness, I just realised how old the previous post was.... glad to bump it.
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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by mozzerb »

castores, that's not actually a Downey Head -- those are the three-quarter face stamps. Yours is from the subsequent Profile Head issue (aka 'Mackennals', although that's probably not the best term as IIRC Mackennal worked on the Downey Heads too).

There are quite a lot of small varieties on the Profile Head stamps as there are on the Australian KGV heads -- yours doesn't look extensive enough to be the (or even a) listed variety. Also, the postmark date looks like 1925, so presumably this is the later issue on Block Cypher watermark, which has fewer variations listed anyway?

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by castores »

Apologies and thanks mozzerb, I really didn't know what a Downey head was specifically.

Yes it is the block cypher, which has inverted "Q" listed in SG (SG 419d) - only. The earlier type (SG 357) has (a) "Q" for "O", (ab) "Q" for "O", (ac) reversed "Q"..., (ad) inverted "Q"....

So, in terms of "Q" for "O" varieties, mine has as much or more trait of a reversed "Q" as the listed varieties so I'm not sure why you say it is not extensive enough to be listed. I will post SGs response when they notify me. If they agree with you I hope they give reason.
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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by mozzerb »

The so-called Q for O varieties -- because come on, they're not actually different letters, just breaks that give the (sometimes very) approximate appearance of a Q -- are identifiable as specific positions. Looking at the catalogue photos, on reflection yes this might be enough compared to some of them. However, SG are surely going to need at least one more example to suggest it's constant before listing it, and preferably have it identified by position and control.

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Re: GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discus

Post by castores »

mozzerb wrote:The so-called Q for O varieties -- because come on, they're not actually different letters, just breaks that give the (sometimes very) approximate appearance of a Q -- are identifiable as specific positions. Looking at the catalogue photos, on reflection yes this might be enough compared to some of them. However, SG are surely going to need at least one more example to suggest it's constant before listing it, and preferably have it identified by position and control.
I agree with everything you have said mozzerb.

However slim the likelihood is, maybe someone else has previously sent SG the same flaw as mine (or may in the future). Either way they now have this one on record.

Let this thread get back to 'Downey Head' stamps. Again my apologies for posting the previous thread here. I won 'Bushfire Auction 9. GB KGV Downey Heads *USED* Control Nos!' and one of the three pages is of these KGV heads so with the title I assumed all are called 'Downey Heads'.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=89392

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GB Downey Heads Identification - Help!

Post by McGlen »

Hi all.

With the aid of a rather old GB Edward VII - George VI SG specialised stamp catalogue (4th Edition!), I have my 1/2d and 1d stamps split into the various types ranging from N1 to N13.

Q1. How do you ascertain what the correct sg number is for say N11 where the numbers range from sg341 to sg343? I’m clearly missing something or need to invest in a much later catalogue!

Q2. Below are a pair of 1d N11 (crown wmk), so in addition to determining the correct SG number, I am also trying to establish whether the one on the left is the ‘no cross’ N11b. variety. What do you think?

Image

Q3. Just to digress ever so slightly, below is a fairly average 1d N10 (inverted simple cypher wmk). Certainly not the most aesthetically pleasing stamp to behold and a few poor perfs! I’m scratching my head trying to decypher the postmark - box on top of a cross? Any of you guys know what it is?

Image

Thanks for taking the time to look at the scans. Any help/advice would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Glen

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Re: GB Downey Heads Identification - Help!

Post by AMark »

Hi Glen,

I am not sure if you have seen this thread, but I hope that it may answer a question or two. :)

GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discussion
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Re: GB Downey Heads Identification - Help!

Post by Goober »

Hiya, ref the postmark query, rotate the stamp to the left and what you have there is a GB roller cancel, probably parcel - I ran the image through Retroreveal, see below, what you thought was a box is clearly an E - the whole thing then becomes E.X - unfortunately I have no clue as to what office this relates to but it should give you something to work with if you wish to pursue it.
Image
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Re: GB Downey Heads Identification - Help!

Post by McGlen »

AMark wrote:Hi Glen,

I am not sure if you have seen this thread, but I hope that it may answer a question or two. :)

GB KGV 1d "Downey Head" stamps. A Detailed look & Discussion
Many thanks. I’ll take a look now.

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Re: GB Downey Heads Identification - Help!

Post by McGlen »

Goober wrote:Hiya, ref the postmark query, rotate the stamp to the left and what you have there is a GB roller cancel, probably parcel - I ran the image through Retroreveal, see below, what you thought was a box is clearly an E - the whole thing then becomes E.X - unfortunately I have no clue as to what office this relates to but it should give you something to work with if you wish to pursue it.
Image
Excellent. Thanks for the info Goober.

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