Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Australia?

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Post by apptec »

David
You are right, its not the condition of the stamp that varies, i did mean the Grading Number of the stamp.

And i dont doubt the auctions turn over a small fortune.

I would just like to see the grading companies using the same grading system, and a set of criteria where 100 means perfect, and anything less than perfect gets a lower value. Even if that means the Tre Skilling Blanco gets a value less than 50.
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Post by David Benson »

I would just like to see the grading companies using the same grading system, and a set of criteria where 100 means perfect,
It would never work, it would mean that every stamp of Nepal and most Indian States (and most early Victoria as well ) would be relegated to low grading because of the quality of the paper and the printing processes.


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Post by fromdownunder »

David Benson wrote:
It would never work, it would mean that every stamp of Nepal and most Indian States (and most early Victoria as well ) would be relegated to low grading because of the quality of the paper and the printing processes.

David B.
David, since everyone pretty much agrees that in an ideal system, grading and price are two entirely separate issues, I am curious to know why you think that it would really matter if the best known example of a stamp was only a '60' or even a '50'.

It would not affect the market (grading and price not being related in an ideal system), and there would be no future regrading issues for existing stamps. We would start off on a level playing field for all stamps, and stay there.

Norm

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Post by David Benson »

norm,

that's roughly what the US does believe too, it makes allowances or should make allowances if it worked properly for the variances that exist on different stamps. That is the problem with the variances in grading in the examples that Ken Lawrence submitted where different graders most probably didn't have the knowledge about the particular stamp submitted.

The only way for it to work is for experts of the items submitted having full knowledge of that particular stamp.

To bring it into an Australian context most serious collectors know that KGV definitives perf. OS were from sheets that were either partly defective and made up by pasting them together and/or badly off centered stamps. A perfect mnh. well centered example is virtually impossible and deserves a top grade.

I see nothing wrong with a faulty stamp being given top grades but that is only the grading and descriptions when is offered for sale must mention faults. The grade is only a 3rd. party opinion for the standard of that item against all other examples that have been graded or known about if they are not graded,

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Post by David Benson »

What happened in the US was a phenonomen, no one expected that it would open Pandora's box and the floodgates would open with the quantity of submissions of fairly modern material to attain high grades.

I doubt very much this would occur in Australia with the bulk of the submissions would be for classical States material and the better KGV items.

David B.

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Post by GlenStephens »

David Benson wrote:
I would just like to see the grading companies using the same grading system, and a set of criteria where 100 means perfect,
It would never work, it would mean that every stamp of Nepal and most Indian States (and most early Victoria as well ) would be relegated to low grading because of the quality of the paper and the printing processes.


David B.
But if knowledgeable collectors accept a 30 grade is high that's all that counts.

That is why the yanks have the "population report" listing all certified copies in each grade by Scott number. Good system.

There is *NO* 100 graded Zeppelin set in existence. Strange but true.

The 1856 1c British Guiana would maybe grade 25 as it is heavily defective.

Whether graded, 10, 20 or 30 it will it will still sell for ~$US10 million when it next comes on the market.

Grading a highly defective stamp as 100 as it is the only one presently known is plainly absurd!

Look at KGV inverted Wmks for OZ.

I personally have handled more 1920s 2d orange KGV inverts in the past years than were RECORDED known only 3 years back!

Why? As my articles bought many of them out of the woodwork as new finds. And this is a 5 figure stamp.

The BEST one 3 years ago is now the middle ranked one.

If the BEST one got a 100 grade 3 years back where do you rate the far Superior ones sold to me? 200 out of 100? 300? It is nonsense!

Hence you grade on what you see before you, not what you IMAGINE might be out there. :idea:

If the Guiana gets graded 25 - so be it.

This was sold by Prestige for $18,500 in 2004

Image

If that horribly off centred copy got graded "100" - how could these far better centred and lighter cancelleed copies found since my article not get a higher grade? Does not make sense.

The minute crud gets a 100 grade you have no room to move upwards. 8)
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Post by fromdownunder »

David Benson wrote:norm,

that's roughly what the US does believe too, it makes allowances or should make allowances if it worked properly for the variances that exist on different stamps. That is the problem with the variances in grading in the examples that Ken Lawrence submitted where different graders most probably didn't have the knowledge about the particular stamp submitted.

The only way for it to work is for experts of the items submitted having full knowledge of that particular stamp.
Isn't this more of a setting an industry standard issue, rather than expert knowledge of a particular issue. If there were standards for grading all stamps, as objective as humanly possible, there should be, at best, only very minor variations in multiple gradings of a single stamp (which if I recall in the Lawrence example, ranged from 75 to 90).

We have had a "sort of" standard for many years for imperf stamps - knock off 25% for each missing margin - yes, I know it is a simple version of the argument - but if this type of thing was to be formulated as the industry standard, firms would be required to comply, or lose their licence to grade. Within a tight knit community like philately, the wolves would soon be cut out, and grading would become almost self regulatory, and could still be a competitive business.

Norm

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Post by David Benson »

Glen, like I have already said, you have your ideas, I have mine.

I believe the best example known should attain the gold, you don't. Wait and see what happens in a few years and then we can discuss it. What the Americans did or intend to do has no relevance in what should happen here apart from learning from their mistakes.

I have many items that are unique and many where only a few are known. I don't intend to have them graded as it is waste of time for those particular items,

David B.

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Post by ozstamps »

David Benson wrote:Glen, like I have already said, you have your ideas, I have mine.

I believe the best example known should attain the gold, you don't. Wait and see what happens in a few years and then we can discuss it. What the Americans did or intend to do has no relevance in what should happen here apart from learning from their mistakes.

I have many items that are unique and many where only a few are known. I don't intend to have them graded as it is waste of time for those particular items,

David B.
As was posted elsewhere the Arthur Gray Kangaroo sale I attended in NYC earlier this year got $7¼ million.

https://www.glenstephens.com/arthur-gray-kangaroos.html

With barely a cert in sight, much less even ONE grading number. :D

The dealers and collectors there were guided by their eyes, not pieces of paper. 8)

That is how it should be at the end of the day.

Ugly crud like this below sold for $A118,000 even with a pinhole.

If you graded this 100 (under your system) ANY other copy ever found will 99.999999% for SURE be better looking!

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Post by David Benson »

Glen,

what are you trying to prove by shouting, I doubt grading will have any effect on rarities, it will only effect the realisations of material that have been hyped by the sellers.

Forget about rarities, discuss 5s. Bridges, items that are sold every day many with glowing descriptions but actually have minor faults.

You seem to have a vendetta with a few sellers, if their material was graded it would stop them selling second & third rate examples as top quality and clean up the marketplace.

David B.

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Post by admin »

David Benson wrote:Glen,

You seem to have a vendetta with a few sellers, if their material was graded it would stop them selling second & third rate examples as top quality and clean up the marketplace.

David B.
I just like to try and show folks a little about quality standards David .. not sure if that is a 'vendetta'. It saves them from themselves - and more important saves many newbie bunnies from believing the same dodgy grading standards are true. That has to be good for the hobby IMHO.

Sadly neither you or anyone else can or will force folks selling on ebay - or anywhere else - to have all their stamps graded, so your point is lost.

We had StampsAustaliaOnline join here a few months back, and argued against many many here that this ugly piece of junk below was "fine used."

These are his photos, from an ebay lot at the time - and he argued the stamp was in good condition. And was pricing it at the normal FU level at the time IIRC. i.e. $100s.

Now I'd call it based on these untouched photos from the seller - soiled, toned, scuffed, faded, off centred, with a pinhole and ratty perfs - with most likely a decent sized central tear.

If helping folks like that (hopefully) learn ugly things apparently held together with a stamp hinge are less than top grade, well something might have been achieved here. ;)

Me, I'd grade it 35 .. but what would I know about fine used Roos? :D

Glen

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Post by David Benson »

Glen, your being a bit generous with your 35, my estimate would be about 20 less.

Your right about there is nothing that can be done with Ebay listers but the better items are usually sold by Auction or by dealers and some buyers (particularly those will future resale in their minds) would like to know a 3rd. party grading. We are all wasting a lot of time and effort in worrying about grading rarities where the bulk of the grading will be in items that regularly turn up and are not for the specialist but for the general collector hoping to complete his collection but without the knowledge to evaluate condition and price.

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Post by David Benson »

One of the most important comments made on this thread was,
We have had a "sort of" standard for many years for imperf stamps - knock off 25% for each missing margin
That statement is incorrect as it is only some buyers and sellers who use it. It varies according to which stamp it is and what the catalogue value is. In some cases the % may be much higher as 4 margin stamps are unobtainable whilst in other much lower where there are plenty of 4 margined examples available. What about 3 large margins and 1 heavily cut into or 3 close margins & 1 heavily cut into, , it would need a large table to give percentages to every permutation of small and large margins and close & cut into would drive any potential buyer batty and giving the stamp a grade would make life easier for the buyer but would annoy those sellers who hyped the material previously,

Look at all the examples of Queensland 1860 imperfs. where 4 margins are the exception and sellers quoting the huge catalogue value hoping to get a buyer at a percentage of catalogue value when some are only worth a tiny fraction and the low grades which they deserve would influence buyers in valuing the material,

p.s.
knock off 25% for each missing margin
does that mean 4 missing margins means absolute zero,

David B.

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The Ultimate Stamp-Grading Donnybrook

Post by doug2222usa »

Here is an image of the abominable "Jenny Invert" that the StampWants.com website is giving away. Yes, it's worth a ton of money, but I would not have this dog, if I won it, no matter how it's graded, more than one day before consigning it, somewhere, anywhere.

Here's a case where rarity and grading collide head-on, and of course condition and appearance and centering should take full precedence over rarity.

Image

I assume this copy is from the right-hand edge of the sheet; are there 9 more copies like this one??

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Post by fromdownunder »

David Benson wrote:One of the most important comments made on this thread was,
We have had a "sort of" standard for many years for imperf stamps - knock off 25% for each missing margin
That statement is incorrect as it is only some buyers and sellers who use it. It varies according to which stamp it is and what the catalogue value is. In some cases the % may be much higher as 4 margin stamps are unobtainable whilst in other much lower where there are plenty of 4 margined examples available. What about 3 large margins and 1 heavily cut into or 3 close margins & 1 heavily cut into, , it would need a large table to give percentages to every permutation of small and large margins and close & cut into would drive any potential buyer batty and giving the stamp a grade would make life easier for the buyer but would annoy those sellers who hyped the material previously
Perhaps I should have specified "approximate" standard. It is a partial rule of thumb for many relatively common stamps such as (some) penny blacks, (some) NZ Chalons etc. I thought that saying "sort of" would clarify, and I apologise if the intention of my comment was unclearly stated. In the future I will be more specific.
Look at all the examples of Queensland 1860 imperfs. where 4 margins are the exception and sellers quoting the huge catalogue value hoping to get a buyer at a percentage of catalogue value when some are only worth a tiny fraction and the low grades which they deserve would influence buyers in valuing the material,
DO catalogues make it clear exactly WHAT they are pricing? This is a definite issue with me, but not for this thread. Maybe we need a thread on what does a catalogue value really mean?
knock off 25% for each missing margin
does that mean 4 missing margins means absolute zero,

David B.
To me personally, yes. I would not purchase a zero margin imperf, especially if they are relatively common, and definately if they exist in perforated form which is otherwise undistuinguishable from the imperf variety. Again. for another thread.

Norm

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Post by David Benson »

Found this bit of misinformation on Ebay,

http://reviews.ebay.com/HOW-TO-GRADE-STAMPS_W0QQugidZ1000000 ... 1:SEARCH:5

Strange suggestion to trim off a wide margin on an imperf. stamp to make it balanced. Don't know where some people get their ideas from but it would be better to keep them to themselves,

David B.

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Post by ozstamps »

David Benson wrote:Found this bit of misinformation on ebay,

https://reviews.ebay.com/HOW-TO-GRADE-STAMPS_W0QQugidZ1000000 ... 1:SEARCH:5

Strange suggestion to trim off a wide margin on an imperf. stamp to make it balanced. Don't know where some people get their ideas from but it would be better to keep them to themselves,

David B.
Ha!

Well out of interest, I am offering this £650 stamp on my rarity page right now at 15% cat:

Image

And as per an earlier thread here many including Simon Dunkerley (and myself) agreed would look more attractive like this:

Image
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Post by SimonDunkerley »

As I have stated elsewhere, I still hold the view that rarity and/or value have nothing to do with the criteria on which any stamp is graded (full stop!).

The moment that changes you can kiss the whole concept of grading goodbye because grading by definition is completely about condition.

Quite apart from other problems, if this golden rule is broken, then each time a new example of any rare stamp is discovered every other example of that item that has been graded in the past would need to be resubmitted in order to adjust their grade and get the balance right. To have to do that would be mad and would never work.

If you were to consider three unique items each in differing condition and were to give them all 100 because they were unique, then you are saying that condition does not matter.

The reality is that when it comes to grading, condition has to be everything and that every stamp graded should be done so on it's own merits by a standard set of criteria. That must apply across all items that could be graded.

The only room for any variation would be that in hinged stamps (when compared to MNH stamps) there would be an added criteria to allow for the degree of hinging; for used stamps the gum factor is replaced by how the postmark is evaluated and if covers were ever to be graded, then factors such as how the stamp(s) are tied and the condition of the envelope are added into the melting pot. In other words, all MNH stamps would be graded on exactly the same criteria; all mint hinged stamps would be graded on exactly the same criteria; all used stamps would be graded on exactly the same criteria (remembering that cto are not used!) and if graded, all covers would be graded on exactly the same criteria.

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Post by David Benson »

Glen,

re your CGH 1d. cut into. It wouldn't make any difference if you trimmed the margin, it would still grade as an absolute zero because of the bite out of the left corner.

If you did it anyway it would be philatelic vandalism but many dealers & collectors have done that in the past for the commercial aspect of the item instead of retaining the item the way it was purely for financial gain,

p.s. nothing personal and if I go to Campbelltown I will watch what I eat and drink,

David B.

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Post by ozstamps »

David Benson wrote:
Glen,

re your CGH 1d. cut into. It wouldn't make any difference if you trimmed the margin, it would still grade as an absolute zero because of the bite out of the left corner.
David your argument is getting weaker and more absurd every moment. 8)

Firstly this CGH stamp can never be graded "absolute zero" by anyone, as it will always have 2¾ margins. A points deduction would be made for that, but not a severe one. The stamp is otherwise perfect.

And above you are trying to tell us that is this stamp was UNIQUE you'd be grading it 100 - as on your cloud cuckoo system that is how things would work. :P

So on one page here, you are conceding that your own grading on an identical and most collectible stamp can be zero or 100 - depending on the phases of the moon over your office?

So if this were a unique CGH you'd grade it 100 today, and when a 4 margin one turned up you'd then grade it "absolute zero" - it is a clearly absurd stance to take.

As I have posted many times, grading HAS to be done on the stamp in front of you. The VALUE of them the grading service does not set - the free market does.

As your silly example proves, to do it any other way is ridiculous. You'd need to re-submit every stamp weekly to keep updated!

Thank goodness you are not running, or participating on any grading services anywhere. ;)
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Post by ozstamps »

Out of interest re USA quality standards, this strip just sold for $US165,000.

The strip was cleaned, and the totally missing perf at top right was not even mentioned in the long gushy auctioneer's write up - or Cert!

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Post by David Benson »

Glen, stick to the facts, don't cloud them with " IFFFS ",

The stamp is not unique, it is readily available at any major auction with plenty of 3 margined examples, many of which would get high grading points. Comparing it with unique items is clouding the subject and proves to me that grading has plenty of merit. OK maybe I was tongue in cheek when I said zero but I was to trying to prove a point that 3rd. party grading by an unbiased grading service would benefit the buyer more than the seller who is trying to promote his material. I have no idea what the grade on that item would be and I don't care as the grader would have references to what grade it should be in that condition and that is the important aspect of grading, let them make a decision not you, not me,

David B.

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Post by ozstamps »

David - I am sticking to the facts -- you yourself have stated many times if ANY stamp was the only one known YOU would grade it as "100" - as no finer copy exists.

That position is absurd and unworkable. THAT is a fact. :D

A grade MUST be based on what you see before you, and has no connection whatever with value, or other copies that may or may not exist.

As my last post proves .. this USA strip of 3 just got found in a junk box - so never assume we have discovered every copy of every rare stamp. :idea:

IMHO.

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Harding Strip

Post by doug2222usa »

Glen, so that you and this forum do not clobbered with dozens of stupid 2c Harding queries, this is the ultra-rare US Scott #613 Perf 11 ROTARY PRESS, not Flat Press. In 2008 Scott, a used pair catalogs $95,000; a strip of 3 must be many times rarer. Needless to say, Perf 10 or imperforate disqualify this stamp immediately.

Rotary: 19.25 by 22.50 millimeters (rare)
Flat: 19.25 by 22.25 millimeters (common)

Obviously a hard variety to discern, with recognition clouded by wishful thinking.

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Post by David Benson »

Glen, you still are discussing iff's, there are finer examples in existance,

I repeat, let the graders grade, the seller's sell and the buyers buy,

re. the US, I am not sure if US graders grade multiples but consider each stamp by itself and that strip would have 3 grades, one for each stamp and the realisation would have been the same no matter what the grade was as it is a specialist item and the bidders weren't interested in a 3rd. party grade but by the rarity of the item itself, what the Europeans call " A Specialists Item " which depends on how deep their pockets were,

David B.

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Post by ozstamps »

Doug I have just written my piece on that strip an hour back, and said in part - let me know if you agree with my summation of these:

They were found in an accumulation of about 150,000 copies of this stamp that were stored in shoeboxes, by a USA east coast stamp collector.

This stamp design is very common and I imagine every single reader with a USA collection has at least one copy in their album.

Those stamps will be perforated rotary press (line perf) 10 x 10 (Scott 612) or flat plate perf 11 x 11 (Scott 611.)

For some reason some sheets were line perforated 11 x 11 from the ROTARY press printing (Scott 613) and they are very valuable. Only used copies are known.

Now this is where it gets tricky. Scott states that the way to differentiate between flat-press perf 11 and rotary press perf 11 is that the flat press versions measure 19.25 mm x 22.25 mm, and the rotary press printings are at least 19.25 x 22.5 mm.

Every tried to measure a QUARTER of a millimetre accurately?

To complicate things further - all three stamps on this strip are less than 22.5 mm high. This caused some experts to decide it was faked.

However after waiting 18 months for experts to make up their mind, the strip finally got a Certificate of Genuineness, and was auctioned October 20 as genuine Scott 613s.

The PF Expert Committee declared them to be "lightly cleaned" and the auctioneer Matthew Bennett vigorously disputed this. In their auction write up re that statement they: "expressed our emphatic disagreement."

As you can see the right hand stamp has a badly pulled perf at top right (not mentioned by auctioneer in his long glowing description - nor the expertiser apparently!) and given the American fetish for perfect centering all fall way short of the ideal appearance.

However it is the only strip recorded, and hence the very strong above estimate price of $US165,000.

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Harding 2c

Post by doug2222usa »

One or two confusions here.

#611 is the imperforate Harding 2c, of only moderate value.

#610 is the flat plate Perf 11, very common, 10c each at most.

#612 is the rotary plate Perf 10, 50c to $1 each, mostly.

#613 is the rotary plate Perf 11, as Scott notes: "No. 613 was produced from rotary press sheet waste. It is valued in the grade of fine."

I do not think the TYPE of perforation has anything to do with it, i.e., "line" or whatever. I believe ALL the US prior to the 1960s are LINE perf, I could be wrong on this.

But it is imperative to get the Scott numbers right.

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Post by ozstamps »

Doug thank goodness for my trusty proof reader!

You are 100% correct .. I boobed here from a key slip, and typed 611 and not 610!

or flat plate perf 11 x 11 (Scott 611.)

I was not going to mention the imperfs -- story was far too complicated for basic readers as it is! :)
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The rest of the 2c Harding story

Post by doug2222usa »

I have 3,000 to 5,000 used copies of the 2c Harding, accumulated over the past 50 years, UNCHECKED, in 10 or 15 big glassines. Reckon I should check them????

I was thinking of very carefully cutting out a black rectangle of 22.25 mm high, and one of 22.50 mm high, mounting them side by side on white paper, and merely sliding the unchecked stamps into position, to check the height.

This eliminates thousands of bleary-eyed measurements with the millimeter-scale of my perforation gauge. Since 99% of philatelists cannot spot the rare variety by "sight," this seems the best methodology.

No secrets here -- finding a copy and selling it would buy me a brand-new Chevrolet cargo van, pay the taxes on my windfall, and hire a craftsman to outfit the interior for camping, and still some money left over. That's exactly what I'd do.

Since I seldom drive over 5,000 miles a year now, this vehicle would last me the rest of my life LOL LOL.

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One last followup

Post by doug2222usa »

I also meant to say, regarding the rare strip of 3, that they do NOT look like they have been cleaned. I am surprised that issue came up.

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Post by ozstamps »

Doug that does seem like the faster way .. order one of Browny's USB magnifiers and it would be a fast job.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2383
Last edited by ozstamps on 28 Oct 2007 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One last followup

Post by ozstamps »

doug2222usa wrote:
I also meant to say, regarding the rare strip of 3, that they do NOT look like they have been cleaned. I am surprised that issue came up.
So are Bennett's I'd say! MOST outspoken.

Anyone that can't mention a missing perf on a VERY valuable piece is hardly in a position to nit-pick over light cleaning though!

The scan is appaling quality for an item of this value, and I have asked them for a better one.

http://www.mbiauctions.com/cgi-bin/viewlot.pl?site=1&sale=321&lot=1501&lang=1

Expertization: 2007 P.F. Certificate.

We have never, in these pages, expressed a strong difference of opinion with an expertizing body. And while the fact that it may or may not have been lightly cleaned is of no import on a unique piece such as this, we feel we must, for the sake of the strip's legacy, express our emphatic disagreement.

The strip exhibits no visual evidence of ever having come into contact with any cleaning solution and there are none of the signs of wear or loss of detail that would be consistent with attempts at cleaning. We feel that the strip is in the exact same state in which the owner found it when he plucked it out of one of his many shoeboxes full of 2¢ black Hardings.
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Post by fletches1 »

A nice easy way to separate Rotary from flat Plate is to make a template like the one below made from a Sc#612 Rotary. You them sort your hardings into 2 piles for Perf 10 & 11. Then you lay your template over the top of the Perf 11's and hope you get a match by lining up the frame lines. You can sort hundres accurately without a glass
Image
I wish it was my original idea but it isn't it can be used to separate all the rotary from flat plate issues, you do need to check both Vertical & Horizontal border frames to be accurate.
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Harding 2c

Post by doug2222usa »

Yes, that's even a better idea than my black rectangles. Most of us can separate Perf 10s from Perf 11s on sight.

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Post by ozstamps »

So any recent USA sales of things getting 5000 times Scott value that anyone can share with us?

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Post by David Benson »

Glen,

forget about the US as grading modern stamps whether US or Austalian was doomed to failure.

Why don't you grade the " infamous " zoned 10 bob Roo.

Personally I don't think it should be graded as it is stuffed as the " zoning " is permanent and whether it is unhinged or plastered with hinges makes no difference, it is a faulty stamp and faulty stamps are ungradeable,

David B.

(now how's that for starting a controversial subject, Grading or Certifying damaged stamps)

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Post by David Benson »

Glen,

forgot to add,


when you are grading do it through the eyes of a collector and not a dealer.

Dealers tend to overgrade material and look for positive aspects
and ignore negative aspects
never mind the zoning, look it's unhinged
whilst collectors tend to look for negative aspects which is what grading is all about,

David B.

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by admin »

The grading craze is still alive and well in the USA. :shock:

I keep reading of things selling for 1000s of times Scott value, for stamps most dealers here would leave in collections and allow zero value for,

I was looking for a photo to use as an avatar for a member here today and came across pages and pages of often cruddy looking common stamps priced at 3 figures:

https://www.gradedstamps.com/gallery/search.php?page=search&g ... &c1=1&c2=4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most of these stamps I would not bother to pick up off the floor if i owned them.

Here is one below.

If you offered me a dollar for it it would be yours NO problem.

A very common stamps with a smeary ugly parcel cancel, with some wonky perfs and poor corners, and it looks grubby. But it IS graded "XF-SUPERB"!

Price - $US250! (=$A350).

I'd still take a dollar.
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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by David Benson »

Glen,

$1, that's overcharging a bit, isn't it for a crap copy like that, however US collectors look at stamps differently than we do and evaluate stamps with the main criteria being on centering and not condition. What it does prove is that the graders were doing their job properly and realised that it is extremely well centered and gave it the thumbs up whilst we who use the main criteria of condition gave it the thumbs down.

I am still in favour of 3rd. party grading but not the way it is done in the US, it should be with commonsense and condition comes 1st., 2nd. & 3rd. whilst centering only comes into play if condition is good,


David B.

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by PeterS »

admin wrote:The grading craze is still alive and well in the USA. :shock:

I keep reading of things selling for 1000s of times Scott value, for stamps most dealers here would leave in collections and allow zero value for,

I was looking for a photo to use as an avatar for a member here today and came across pages and pages of often cruddy looking common stamps priced at 3 figures:

https://www.gradedstamps.com/gallery/search.php?page=search&g ... &c1=1&c2=4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most of these stamps I would not bother to pick up off the floor if i owned them.

Here is one below.

If you offered me a dollar for it it would be yours NO problem.

A very common stamps with a smeary ugly parcel cancel, with some wonky perfs and poor corners, and it looks grubby. But it IS graded "XF-SUPERB"!

Price - $US250! (=$A350).

I'd still take a dollar.
Image
Image
I'm with Glen, the craze is plainly ridiculous. I expect to pay a premium for well centered kangaroos and George V, since techniques were much less sophisticated in the early part of the 20th century.

However, just the IDEA of trying to implement such a numerical grading system makes my skin crawl. One day, people are going to wake up and decide that they don't need numerically perfect specimens, a well centred and clean stamp with good perfs will be fine. POOF! there goes the craze.

It is the inevitable result of all crazes, only lasts as long as demand. If the underlying stamp is common then the subsequent collapse will be that much more spectacular.
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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by doug2222usa »

I have always thought, or at least in the last 5 minutes, that
if you could place a stamp in a 50-ton hydraulic press, and get
an even SPLAT!, you could create some huge boardwalk margins.

Plus they would all be the ultra-scarce "thin-paper" variety! :lol:

Here is the stamp I want to send to Graded Stamp, Inc., whoever
they are; not one 3c Locomotive in 50,000 is a jumbo like this:

Image

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by admin »

Doug well one side effect of your 50 ton press on that stamp is that it will then appear to be Scott 114a ie the NO GRILL which is worth 5 times your #114 WITH grill. ;)

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by PeterS »

admin wrote:Doug well one side effect of your 50 ton press on that stamp is that it will then appear to be Scott 114a ie the NO GRILL which is worth 5 times your #114 WITH grill. ;)
Sounds like a win/win to me! :)
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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by David Benson »

3rd. Party Grading works perfectly well with classical and middle period stamps, it doesn't work at all on moderner material and I doubt it was even envisaged that modern stamps would be graded but it happened.

When & if 3rd. Party Grading starts in Australia I am sure it will be well received and utilised as long as it did a good job and the charges were not exhorbitant.

It will put an end to the various superlatives that certain unreliable dealers & Auction Houses use all the time to describe mediocre examples,

David B.

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by David Benson »

Doug,

I am not sure how US Graders will evaluate the strait edge at the left as it may pull the grade down,

David B.

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by doug2222usa »

It would never work in Oz.

This Company grades for centering ONLY -- no mention of minor
faults, blunt or torn perfs, hinge thins, fading, creases, crud, etc.

That's the overwhelming problem that I believe most of us object to. :?

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by doug2222usa »

For David,

That is of course a natural sheet-edge copy, but I don't
know how that would affect the grade either.

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by PeterS »

doug2222usa wrote:It would never work in Oz.

This Company grades for centering ONLY -- no mention of minor
faults, blunt or torn perfs, hinge thins, fading, creases, crud, etc.

That's the overwhelming problem that I believe most of us object to. :?
So, as long as the centering is perfect, the rest of the stamp can be sub-standard? I cannot see such a concept EVER being accepted in Australia. Centering is only one aspect of condition, much less important (as far as i am concerned) than perfs and thins etc.
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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by doug2222usa »

PeterS -- you are right. You are with us. You are in tune.
You are in touch with reality. You recognize the absurdity.

That's enough for one day. :roll:

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Re: Numerical Stamp Grading - will it ever occur in Aust?

Post by David Benson »

Doug,

agreed, that company would be laughed at in Australia but a Grading system that graded as per Australian collectors acceptability should catch on OK especially for early Australian States,

David B.

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