Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by GB 789 »

ViccyVFU wrote:
31 Aug 2021 08:36

e) Be visible - certainly... but the catalogue should remain "what they think their selling price is".
I think bringing the prices down systematically sends a bad message to the market, and if they do it over several editions, it actually looks like "A really bad investment / hobby for anyone".
Perhaps one way SG could satisfy both sides of this argument would be to start having a fourth price column for ‘good used’ for pre-1945 GB stamps, ie inferior to fine used.

SG state clearly in their catalogues that used prices are for fine used specimens but this gets completely misused by many sellers for stamps that are inferior. If SG had a fourth column with a reduced catalogue value for good used, this would make buyers more wary about seller claims of condition.

Doing this would prevent the possible negatives you suggested Viccy as genuine fine used would still be listed at the same higher value as previous editions of the catalogue. But having the additional ‘good used’ price would then allow a significant reduction in catalogue value for those stamps which would more realistically match the actual market value of them.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by MJ's pet »

ViccyVFU wrote: As I pointed out on 24th September last year (on this very thread) ... page 24.

ViccyVFU wrote:

If SG, or its current owner make profits in the next three years (or so), there is always the possibility that aggrieved losers from this earlier "guaranteed contract" may form an action to recover losses. The original prospectus used group emails, and even though it was not a regulated investment, there is certainly no clarity that a Group guarantee did not exist "at the time people invested their money". (Tranche 1, SG Sales and PFC Sales would not be covered by this guarantee - it was a very specific offer).


Excellent point you make Viccy. Does it say anyway what as the amount lost complained of in the legal letter?

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by MJ's pet »

ViccyVFU wrote:
29 Aug 2021 02:55
They might just as well sell tickets/shares for a pound. Hold a sweepstake, and let the winner take all.


selling 1 million tickets at £10 quid each - is this such a crazy idea? :geek:

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by David Smitham »

No, but assuming a) that they all sold, b) what would the "lucky winner" do with their winnings?

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by MJ's pet »

blue-within-blue wrote:
30 Aug 2021 21:48
As is well documented, the mad sheikh who bid crazy prices for all the du Pont lots died before paying, leaving Feldmans to sue his family to try and recover some of their costs. They then sold the whole collection to one buyer anonymised as "Imperium", who has added even more rarities and later items to the collection over the past 7 years.


Yes, noted this. The question is, is Imperium a "real" collection, or something accumulated for resale? Time will tell.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

GB 789 wrote:
31 Aug 2021 09:11

Has anyone seen recent figures of how the publication division is performing?

We all know well that reading and absorbing facts is not your strong point. The figures you ask about are fully outlined in the current lodged LSE detailed report, linked a few posts above. Perhaps they might send you one by carrier pigeon?

And no, your suggestion to them of adding a ''good used'' column in their catalogues is quite ill-founded.

For those who bothered to read the clear figures there, the publications' division has for years been performing OK - selling STAMPS is their big issue, as Vickky and other big picture experienced observers are pointing out.

As he and others wise in reading financial reports point out, SELLING 10 million quid of STAMPS a year is the bare minimum they must do. For those not good at Math, that is about 200,000 quid a WEEK - just to tread water basically. Anything more in sales than that starts to look like PROFIT.

Seems like the company total focus is on the sad and faded British Guano, and what colour and brand the case will be, and how many e-shares they should offer, and whether buyers can sign the back and so on, and not SELLING existing and fully owned stock.

THAT is the only way out of their current mess. It is the same for ANY sales business on the planet. SELL YOUR PRODUCT. The current board clearly have no idea how to do that.

If it were not for Phoenix, they'd be gone and finished 2 years back. And Phoenox patience must be wearing RAZOR thin, after years of Dad's Army muddling about, a share price sinking like a rock, and the same bunch of lame excuses from the SG board each report - "we hope things might improve NEXT Quarter". :?: :!:

No way to run a company.


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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by steevh »

What always worries me about anything that SG does is that there never seems to be anyone doing any quality control, checking that the output is doing what its supposed to do.

For example, they have produced a large series of videos covering all aspects of stamp collecting. I was watching one of them last night, about the forger Sperati.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyZKeAzrzBc

Its starts off with what is basically a recital of his wiki entry, and then comes the time to add some real value -- at 2:30 in, the SG expert shows you an original and a Sperati side-by-side, so you can see how good the Sperati really is. But he's just holding it up in front of a video camera, the lighting is all wrong, and he could be holding 2 copies run off a laser printer in the Ukraine for all anyone can see. How difficult would it have been to cut to a good scan at this point?

I've seen a few other of the videos, and they all had serious issues. For example the one about valuing a collection -- its supposedly for beginners, but basically says beginner collections are rubbish and they have no interest in them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyZKeAzrzBc

Whereas this video by a US company (which has 300K views vs. the 3K views of the SG video) tackles the same subject, but makes it clear its all about "How to sell your collection". And does a better job of trying to cut the wheat from the chaff without putting potential customers off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr0bQU2jeo4

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by fchd »

Global Administrator wrote:
06 Feb 2021 00:59
.

A real sale with the money in the bank, even discounted is what they need now. They have a ton of nice but DEAD stock. They need MONEY, not nice stock.

Ebay for THEM will work, as I pointed out here 5 months back -

Global Administrator wrote:
02 Oct 2020 13:19
.
SG have SEVENTY staffers .. so listing up a lot more stuff on ebay is not a bad idea. FAST.

However what they need right now are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$s hitting the till, and lots of them.

Selling Bermuda or Gambia sets now and again in the store for 6 quid that cost them 2 quid, will not turn around the 10 MILLION or so quid they need to see booked as real sales. SHARPISH.

To amateur armchair collectors I realise that is ''a 300% profit'' if you ever achieve it on ebay. To a real business, with huge overheads, you actually LOSE money on all such flea bite sales.

Transferring 1000 pricer lots onto eBay as Buy It Now will start that revenue path overnight. Just 1000 sales at 1000 quid in a few months is a million quid cash injection - simple as that. Bog Basic Sales Management.

The stock is on hand, plenty of staff are on hand to cope with it, the buyers are out there, the material is already scanned and described - they just lack the leadership to make it happen, and connect that material with those buyers - most of whom have never visited the SG website. And never will.

Glen

Unfortunately they never took your advice.

Their ebay sales are pitiful, checking over the last 6 months they've sold 73 items, virtually all India-related, none of them over £1000.

Today, there are 23 items listed, again mostly India, but with still no moderate to high ticket price items on there.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Yes, I looked at the hopeless eBay listings only yesterday.

WHY they are listing up 6 quid stuff, like the average brown cardigan amateur seller, who have zero fixed costs, when they need 10 MILLION quid in sales a year, only they know.

I can only repeat my strong advice of SIX MONTHS BACK - with SEVENTY staff despite all the predictable annual mumblings of "we have cut back staff numbers ruthlessly" SOMEONE in there should be assigned the task to SELL PRICEY STAMPS ONLINE - PRONTO.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by deltic1575 »

ViccyVFU wrote:
31 Aug 2021 08:36


b) Sell down non performing stock
Again, nice idea, and they have had some limited success with selling tranches, but its to the trade, and takes large discounts.

It actually aggravates their problems if they dispose of stock with a balance sheet value of 150k, and only rack up 100k sales for it.

Think about the stock they are holding ... some of it very old indeed (even pre-dating the last time the British Guano stamp was sold). There will be hope pricing in their valuations, and the market for high end collectibles, whilst buoyant for the right material, is punitative for those areas currently out of favour.

Recall also that some of their stock is only sold on commission (Phoenix own it), which means they are hamstrung on discounts, that will all need parent approval.
Effectively they are sitting on stock which is valued at £xm on their books but in reality is worth considerably less. Sitting on that for the next unknown number of years hoping that it will miraculously recover its value is not going to help the business. It needs to bite the bullet, take the hit and liquidate most of its present stock - it can only buy new stock if it can raise cash from what it has at the moment.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by mozzerb »

deltic1575 wrote:
31 Aug 2021 20:36
Effectively they are sitting on stock which is valued at £xm on their books but in reality is worth considerably less. Sitting on that for the next unknown number of years hoping that it will miraculously recover its value is not going to help the business. It needs to bite the bullet, take the hit and liquidate most of its present stock - it can only buy new stock if it can raise cash from what it has at the moment.
I presume Viccy means that if they write down the value, it immediately shows up as extra losses on the books, which depending on the amount could trigger various bad effects. I don't envy them this bind, but yes, at some point they surely need to take the hit. Unless the idea is to have a lot of nominally huge value but slow moving stock to increase the asset value on the books, and do the actual trading in more routine items.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by HalfpennyYellow »

steevh wrote:
31 Aug 2021 18:12
What always worries me about anything that SG does is that there never seems to be anyone doing any quality control, checking that the output is doing what its supposed to do.
Apparently they can't even list items on eBay correctly - this 1d black currently up for auction is described as "Mint" in the "Condition" field, and it is listed in the "Belgium & Colonies" category. :roll:

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by ViccyVFU »


UK law, or more specifically accounting guidelines by which all companies must abide (or state reasons for their departure from best practice) is quite prescriptive.

"All stocks must be shown (i.e. held in the books) at the LOWER of COST or NET REALISABLE VALUE".

And that means "on balance sheet day", not at some future date when (/if ;) ) the market recovers.

For most businesses, "cost" works fine, and assumes, in an ongoing basis, that you are turning stock over fairly regularly (i.e. in under about two years), so whatever you paid for it, that's the value.

SG have held some items of stock "way longer" than that. They may have paid top dollar "back in the day", but so long has elapsed that those areas are no longer "those that fly out of the door" (at least at present).

I think some of their stock MAY be overvalued "for the current market", and cumulatively it might amount a significant "hit to asset value", as you need to recognise that loss immediately.

Bearing in mind the words "going concern" have crept into documents (which only normally happens within about 12 months of a fall, or recovery), and the fact that they are pre-selling Part 1 Catalogues to get revenues into the first half of the year (ends 30th September), but with no firm delivery date assured.....

"Its going to be a bumpy few months".

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Cill Dara »

ViccyVFU wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:13
.......and the fact that they are pre-selling Part 1 Catalogues to get revenues into the first half of the year (ends 30th September), but with no firm delivery date assured.....
That should be classified as Deferred Revenue, a Liability, and not Revenue.........in my (rusty) books.

Very retired Finance Director.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by lesbootman »

Ebay lot 133860830613 is listed in the correct category but the picture does not tally with the lot description.

Set of 3 ??
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by lesbootman »

Lot # 154586170552 - again a set of 3!
Lot # 154586170552 - again a set of 3!
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by lesbootman »

Cill Dara wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:54
ViccyVFU wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:13
.......and the fact that they are pre-selling Part 1 Catalogues to get revenues into the first half of the year (ends 30th September), but with no firm delivery date assured.....
That should be classified as Deferred Revenue, a Liability, and not Revenue.........in my (rusty) books.

Very retired Finance Director.
Agreed.

Likely explanation (assuming that they are not cooking the books) is that they need some cash flowing inwards rapidly.
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by ViccyVFU »

Cill Dara wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:54
ViccyVFU wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:13
.......and the fact that they are pre-selling Part 1 Catalogues to get revenues into the first half of the year (ends 30th September), but with no firm delivery date assured.....
That should be classified as Deferred Revenue, a Liability, and not Revenue.........in my (rusty) books.

Very retired Finance Director.
"Should" being the operative word.

As long as its sitting in the rain, outside their warehouse, waiting for Royal Mail to collect they can scoop it into revenue for Q2 / first half results. (They need the cash).

That's why the 24th, the first day of Stampex (28th), and Derbyboi2's comments of "hopefully by" all have some significance to their first half results.

Not big beans, but hopefully enough to push the Publishing division into the black.

I suspect they will be re-using their coffee grounds "if it made the first half look less bleak".

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by lesbootman »

Lot # 154586167957 - Set of 8
Lot # 154586167957 - Set of 8


SG seem to have got their pictures and lot titles pretty well mixed up.
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

.
I mean REALLLLLLY ..... what on EARTH are they doing stuffing about with listing up a bunch of penny lots??

Leave that to the bottom feeders. It literally COSTS a real business way over a quid to scan, type, list and pack, and charge, and mail, and process a junk 99p order, and then pay the hefty ebay and paypal fees. They literally LOSE money on each sale like this.

For 45 years I have never advertised ANYTHING for sale at less than $40.
NEVER. It makes zero sense to anyone running a profitable business.

SG if you are reading = list nothing under 100 quid on ebay. It keeps them looking a cut above the riff-raff flogging off their swaps AND actually brings in some real money - they need TEN MILLION QUID A YEAR of sales, and landfill 99p lots will not do it!

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by norvic »

ViccyVFU wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:13



Bearing in mind the words "going concern" have crept into documents (which only normally happens within about 12 months of a fall, or recovery), and the fact that they are pre-selling Part 1 Catalogues to get revenues into the first half of the year (ends 30th September), but with no firm delivery date assured.....

"Its going to be a bumpy few months".
Part 1 is going to be published week commencing 22nd September. Stampex starts on 29th. Early Stampex sales also fall into the first half.
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by gavin-h »

Global Administrator wrote:
01 Sep 2021 00:00
.
I mean REALLLLLLY ..... what on EARTH are they doing stuffing about with listing up a bunch of penny lots??
Agreed! Utterly pathetic.

I still remember as a young collector nearly 40 years ago going into Gibbons' shop looking for hard-to-find but lowly catalogued items and having the staff there look down their nose at me. Not the way to encourage someone to come back when they have more to spend on stamps.

And now, all these years later I look at them listing 99p items on ebay, like a dosser scrabbling about in the gutter for something to smoke or eat. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stanley Gibbons, you are indeed utterly pathetic, you are getting what you deserve for your treatment of customers for many decades and I have waited a long time to feel so happy about your current plight. :D

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Nick777VVV »

It is very bizarre behaviour. Market positioning and credibility are critical to a business trying to sell £100,000 + items.

To list 99p lots on eBay almost seems to purposely undermine that strategy. It simply cannot be worth paying a salary and pension contributions to an individual listing items on the same terms as a collector making some pocket money by selling their dupes.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by emason »

HalfpennyYellow wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:03
steevh wrote:
31 Aug 2021 18:12
What always worries me about anything that SG does is that there never seems to be anyone doing any quality control, checking that the output is doing what its supposed to do.
Apparently they can't even list items on eBay correctly - this 1d black currently up for auction is described as "Mint" in the "Condition" field, and it is listed in the "Belgium & Colonies" category. :roll:

Image
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144173872318
Further down the page under categories, it states "used neatly struck by black MC, horizontal crease at left, otherwise a collectable example."
The 'horizontal' crease is in fact a vertical crease, and the black MC is actually a Manchester 'fishtail' cross, CV £900.
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by faro »

emason wrote:
01 Sep 2021 07:31
HalfpennyYellow wrote:
31 Aug 2021 22:03
steevh wrote:
31 Aug 2021 18:12
What always worries me about anything that SG does is that there never seems to be anyone doing any quality control, checking that the output is doing what its supposed to do.
Apparently they can't even list items on eBay correctly - this 1d black currently up for auction is described as "Mint" in the "Condition" field, and it is listed in the "Belgium & Colonies" category. :roll:

Image
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144173872318
Further down the page under categories, it states "used neatly struck by black MC, horizontal crease at left, otherwise a collectable example."
The 'horizontal' crease is in fact a vertical crease, and the black MC is actually a Manchester 'fishtail' cross, CV £900.


It would be useful to see the reverse to confirm there's no rebacking/reinforcement. Difficult to tell for certain with a possible white margin at the left, top and a "stub" at top-right, etc.

On the plus side, they correctly identified the piece of paper as a stamp... :twisted:

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by mozzerb »

The 99p start lots all seem to be "better" items (penny blacks, a Mulready, some decent cat Belgian sets etc), so presumably the idea there is to encourage bidders to pile in with the hope of a bargain. A fairly standard eBay tactic, although not guaranteed to work!

The Buy it Nows (at the time of writing -- they only have 27 lots visible) are mostly Bundi "Sacred Cow" sheets at prices that average about £25, and of the ones I looked at they are listed as having several available. So it looks like they're testing the waters with some stock that may be hard to shift (sorry Tony!).

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

Nick777VVV wrote:
01 Sep 2021 07:20
It is very bizarre behaviour. Market positioning and credibility are critical to a business trying to sell £100,000 + items.

To list 99p lots on eBay almost seems to purposely undermine that strategy. It simply cannot be worth paying a salary and pension contributions to an individual listing items on the same terms as a collector making some pocket money by selling their dupes.

Well, we all seem above to be in agreeable.

In the same week, they are listing things up at 99p on eBay, and trying to sell something for 8 million quid!

They have lost the plot. It is all about market PERCEPTION. You cannot have both ends of the market.

Gibbons as I have typed 1000 times have NEVER, EVER understood the Internet.

The eye watering 10 million quid loss of buying BidStart, and letting some of their material be listed alongside every dopey clueless average bottom feeder amateur American seller was beyond belief the board approved any of it.

They lost the entire 10 million quid, of course. EVERY cent, and only made a few sales themselves - insanity. I predicted right here at the time it is was an unmitigated disaster in the making, and so it came to pass.

When I see Tiffany & Co, New York allowing a few unwashed hillbillies rent out card tables for $10 a day in their Fifth Avenue showroom to sell $2 costume jewellery, I'll agree this might be a good idea.

SG seem so totally internet clueless, they do not know ebay Auctions can START at whatever level YOU choose. Start at 99p and DURRRHHHH - stuff will often sell for that.

Indeed, you can have an ebay AUCTION with a minimum bid of 50 quid and a Buy It Now of £75, if there are no bids. Gibbons do not seem aware of that.

List up a Fresh Mint 140 year old Sweden classic cat £95 at 99p, and guess what - it might just sell for 99p. Idiots.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133797800650

Start a 1d Black at 50 quid or something sensible, and no risk then of a similar disaster.

MEMO TO SG - the clueless 18 year old listing your stuff on eBay at 99p must go. Listing used 1d Blacks as MINT, listing them only under BELGIUM COLONIES, and not mentioning a distinctive £900 Maltese Cross cancel, has Amateur Hour written all over it. Like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
.
gavin-h wrote:
01 Sep 2021 05:56

And now, all these years later I look at them listing 99p items on ebay, like a dosser scrabbling about in the gutter for something to smoke or eat. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by satsuma »

.
It has often been suggested the catalogue division is an exemplar of the trade.

It has substantial market value in both intellectual property and goodwill.

I'm surprised the holding company's board doesn't create a stand alone independent subsidiary, and sell the catalogue division to it at the market rate.

This would sever the relationship between the held stamp assets and the catalogue output.

If the stamp business falls over, the asset of the catalogues is protected from fire sale and or rapacious liquidation fees.

It could then continue to publish and prosper or be divested of more appropriately.

It also opens the door for a re-appraisal of the pricing paradigm without internal conflict of interest issues.

The share price history is a fair indication that investors don't believe SG can trade its way back into solvency, at least not by just selling stamps.

The holding company board should be reflecting on whether they want the catalogues to go down with the ship or get on a lifeboat.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

.

Agree the CATALOGUE division surviving is essential for ALL of us -- even the zero big picture vision cheapskates out there (millions of them sadly!) who buy a new Catalogue ''each 30 years or so''.

It is the cornerstone of a stable global stamp market, and we ALL should buy SG catalogues as often as we can. And even despite the numbskulls in there losing mega millions on Internet fiascos, buying wine companies, autograph sellers, antiques businesses, and Investment schemes it remains steady, and makes money.

The value of it stand alone is pretty minor in the big picture of things in SG finances if you look at the accounts - sadly.

If the board sold it to a third party, it would be admitting they were doomed and about to fail. And indeed would be selling their only profitable division, for peanuts.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by ViccyVFU »

Global Administrator wrote:
01 Sep 2021 14:40
...

List up a Fresh Mint 140 year old Sweden classic cat £95 at 99p, and guess what - it might just sell for 99p. Idiots.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133797800650

Thought I'd screen print this one for posterity, as eBay listings vanish after 90 days.

sg_folly_top.jpg
sg_folly_bottom.jpg

If they have many more sales like this, they'll be disappearing too, soon after. :D

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by steevh »

The 99p eBay start strategy works in some circumstances, but SG clearly failed with their Swedish stamp.

I would suggest using 99p start for the following items:
1. junk, so you don't mind if 99p is all you make
2. Popular items that are bound to go for way more, but the 99p start can be guaranteed to pull in interest.
3. Things you have no idea what they're worth, and it would take a long time for you to find out.
4. You're using it as loss-leader, rather like no. 2 above.

The Swedish stamp looks like a classic case of what not to sell at a 99p start -- something that hasnt got a broad appeal, so will have few people searching for it, and not get a lot of watchers.

I would suggest that SG shouldnt be selling anything in this manner in any case.
1. SG should not be selling anything that they expect to only make 99p, or a few quid.
2. (and 4.) eBay bargain hunters are not going to the high-end stamp dealer in the hope they might grab a bargain.(Though looking at the Sweden result, maybe they should!)
3. If SG has no idea how to value an item, then who does?

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by 22028 »

The 99 cents strategy is not uncommon. I. e a Dutch seller always post his lots with 99 cents and for the last lot i purchased from him i had to pay € 808!!!
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by steevh »

22028 wrote:
01 Sep 2021 21:45
The 99 cents strategy is not uncommon. I. e a Dutch seller always post his lots with 99 cents and for the last lot i purchased from him i had to pay € 808!!!
I use it myself all the time, but I wouldnt have used it for that Swedish stamp.

But you have to question the wisdom of SG using it, when they produce the catalogues that set the benchmark prices for the stamps. The 99p start suggests "a stamp is only worth what someone will pay for it", yet their catalogue sends a totally different message.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by ViccyVFU »

In a way, what it shows is that currently "the SG name / brand is not a value added, prestige product on the internet". I can get 99p for that product, almost anyone can.

If they had it in their books at £10 cost (expecting it to be worth £50), yet sold it for 99p, then, ignoring all the other order processing costs, their balance sheet just went down (again).

And that's a mindset they have not really addressed in their recovery plan.

People are not sentimental about what went before ... they just want to know "what will you sell it to me for, today, right here and now", and lowest total costs usually wins over "any brand security you might think you are getting, when you pay a premium".

When the internet demands you trim the fat, you get lean, or die.

"Cash to cash. Lowest cost supplier, at acceptable quality".

Its also quite contradictory to their last declared direction, which seemed to imply that "they were pulling out of the medium low end stuff in their flagship shop, as there was no money in it".

Can't shift the high end stuff (had it for years)
Can't trade the low stuff at a profit.
I know, lets buy a stamp no-one really likes, and try to hype up its value "just like the good old days".

The flagship store only deals in photocopies in their cabinets, and then only M-F 8.30 - 5.50pm.
How on earth are they going to display "one real stamp, as a showcase", and for passers by not to get the mistaken impression its an art gallery?

I can see all the money flowing out .... I just don't see enough flowing in to cover this random collection of initiatives they are embarking on.

I hope they have not ordered next years desk diaries yet!!
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by The Pom »

SG is typical of many SME's (Small to medium enterprises) I see.

There is no requirement for any formal qualification to be a manager.

The further up you are, the less training you get.

The further up you are, the less you are subjected to scrutiny from within the organisation.

The further up you are, the less likely you are to have been through a formal interview process.

You get businesses set up by Joe Bloggs, who is free to employ clueless friends & family as directors who are entirely unaware of their shortcomings & the company's day-to-day running is largely organised by the staff.

None of the senior staff are in post on merit. If asked to apply for an equivalent position in a similar company, none of them would get past a decent interviewer.

SG's origins are different to this, but they seem to have ended in a very similar situation/internal structure.

Can't the shareholders stage a revolt?
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by norvic »

Sweden 1886-91 Oscar II 10o pale-rose with blue postal horn M/M SG 34 cat £95
Everybody, but everybody connected with Swedish stamps calls it a posthorn, not a postal horn. (It's printed on the reverse, and this distinguishes it from the ones that are earlier.)

As for their selling "description" it's worse than Samwells!
mounted mint, mixed centering otherwise a fresh example.
Now I know that spending more time on it would dent the profits further but the staff costs are sunk anyway. Why not describe it as if you are trying to market it!
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by GB 789 »

steevh wrote:
01 Sep 2021 21:49
22028 wrote:
01 Sep 2021 21:45
The 99 cents strategy is not uncommon. I. e a Dutch seller always post his lots with 99 cents and for the last lot i purchased from him i had to pay € 808!!!
I use it myself all the time, but I wouldnt have used it for that Swedish stamp.

But you have to question the wisdom of SG using it, when they produce the catalogues that set the benchmark prices for the stamps. The 99p start suggests "a stamp is only worth what someone will pay for it", yet their catalogue sends a totally different message.
Perhaps for less valuable items and those from ‘lower interest’ areas, SG would have been better selling these through a different named subsidiary. Quite a few larger main stream dealers trade on eBay and a number have more than one eBay selling account for this exact reason.

You sell the cheap stuff on one account and keep the more prestigious items for your main account. Then it doesn’t damage the companies main stream reputation yet they still are able to shift the cheaper stock - its win-win!

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by ViccyVFU »

GB 789 wrote:
02 Sep 2021 02:47
Perhaps for less valuable items and those from ‘lower interest’ areas, SG would have been better selling these through a different named subsidiary. Quite a few larger main stream dealers trade on eBay and a number have more than one eBay selling account for this exact reason.

You sell the cheap stuff on one account and keep the more prestigious items for your main account. Then it doesn’t damage the companies main stream reputation yet they still are able to shift the cheaper stock - its win-win!

I suspect they need to think bigger - not create another small subsidiary that barely covers its costs.

I would suggest they either partner with

A) A full time ebay lister / agent - One whose sales model fits that "99p flyaway" form of disposal, (such as Satholiday, or one of the myriad of others, from Hove to Home Counties). Then they can bulk ship, and just work out a formula for sales proceeds split.

B) Partner with Andrew McGavin from UPU Auctions, to effect a dignified exit from the areas they don't want to be in. Gavin is very hardworking, advertises a service that might be of use to them (Commercial stock shifting), and also, through his regular auctions, has a huge following that I'd imagine have swallowed that 99p bargain at "closer £20-30". That leaves significantly more real cash to divvi, and ensures their balance sheet valuations can be justified.

Either "would free them up significant time, to do the things we all know they should be doing".

They are currently "mistaking activity for progress",
..... (and that's the kiss of death, when the bills are not getting paid).

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by GB 789 »

ViccyVFU wrote:
02 Sep 2021 03:42

I suspect they need to think bigger - not create another small subsidiary that barely covers its costs.

I would suggest they either partner with

A) A full time ebay lister / agent - One whose sales model fits that "99p flyaway" form of disposal, (such as Satholiday, or one of the myriad of others, from Hove to Home Counties). Then they can bulk ship, and just work out a formula for sales proceeds split.

B) Partner with Andrew McGavin from UPU Auctions, to effect a dignified exit from the areas they don't want to be in. Gavin is very hardworking, advertises a service that might be of use to them (Commercial stock shifting), and also, through his regular auctions, has a huge following that I'd imagine have swallowed that 99p bargain at "closer £20-30". That leaves significantly more real cash to divvi, and ensures their balance sheet valuations can be justified.

Either "would free them up significant time, to do the things we all know they should be doing".

They are currently "mistaking activity for progress",
..... (and that's the kiss of death, when the bills are not getting paid).
It’s interesting you mention UPA. Their auctions are predominantly ‘owned’ items with only a few additional vendors. They have 1000s of bidders in their excellent sales. SG could do worse than replicate this model by selling off their own stock through SG auctions.

That name still holds some prestige in stamp circles and no doubt they have a substantial collector database to market the auctions too. They could also choose their minimum reserve price to prevent selling too cheaply. They could even be a bit naughty and add a buyer’s premium on to every sale too!

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Nick777VVV »

SG couldn't buy the pro bono consultancy they are getting on this thread.

Yes, there is understandable mockery of their (rather silly) own goals but there is also a genuine desire to try and help the old girl pull through.

Despite the lack of acknowledgement, I'm sure this thread gets read by the SG board. Will be interesting to see whether any of these ideas get adopted...or whether the head remains firmly implanted in the sand.

I hope not.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by ViccyVFU »

GB 789 wrote:
02 Sep 2021 03:50
It’s interesting you mention UPA. Their auctions are predominantly ‘owned’ items with only a few additional vendors. They have 1000s of bidders in their excellent sales. SG could do worse than replicate this model by selling off their own stock through SG auctions.

That name still holds some prestige in stamp circles and no doubt they have a substantial collector database to market the auctions too. They could also choose their minimum reserve price to prevent selling too cheaply. They could even be a bit naughty and add a buyer’s premium on to every sale too!
Nope, I think their current auction house is currently the laziest and most arrogant in the world of stamps.
They have absolutely no passion to shift stock. None at all, nada, rien.

If this year goes to plan, they will manage just three general sales, three india, and one online timed.
Results are not superlative either, both against estimates, and with quite a few unsolds.

Look at their upcoming sales:

SG_upcoming.jpg
SG Upcoming Auctions. (Not much in the pipeline! :D ).

Would you consign today, for a possible payout in late November?
..... And that's part of the problem. If they are not getting enough new material in through the doors to dilute their own "sell-downs", then people will start "wholesale ignoring" their auctions.

Best if they partner with someone that can handle high volumes, and knows the lower end of the market.
(And fly under the radar for those disposals).

This isn't the market it was.

In the old days, people beat a path to their door with serious old collections, (usually built up over years with them)

Nowadays, Aussies and I may be online to New York, both counter bidding the same materials, for people in China.

I don't care if its SG or Cherrystone (No disrespect to Cherrystone!!), its time "cash to cash" - that's all there is.

They may have an old black book of "connections", but they have a serious credibility in trust, at present.
.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

ViccyVFU wrote:
02 Sep 2021 03:42

B) Partner with Andrew McGavin from UPU Auctions, to effect a dignified exit from the areas they don't want to be in. Gavin is very hardworking, advertises a service that might be of use to them (Commercial stock shifting), and also, through his regular auctions, has a huge following that I'd imagine have swallowed that 99p bargain at "closer £20-30". That leaves significantly more real cash to divvi, and ensures their balance sheet valuations can be justified.

Might be a decent solution. I've dealt with Andrew McGavin for 45 years and he is quiet achiever in the UK trade. UPA is the face most see, but he has several different huge ebay accounts, then all kind of approvals services etc, topical companies, and last time we spoke, he told me how many staff he had - was several DOZENS.

His selling power and reach is most impressive. In recent years, I sold him a stamp accessory item that he sold for about 25 quid apiece, and took near 1,000 units of. THAT is successful selling. We both did very well. His businesses have global reach.

Gibbons will do far better with such an outlet offering a wholesale parcel of material not in their general orbit, for one or 2 or 3 million quid nett, rather than selling 95 quid Sweden classics fresh mint, for 99p, before eBay and PayPal fees, and staff costs are sliced away.

I could list that here today for 25 times that, and it would sell etc. Andrew would get MORE than 25 times that, but SG lost every cent of that 99p, in staff time and fees etc. It is a totally DUMB policy, and they MUST smarten up, or they are doomed.

And that would be terrible for the hobby. Keep their niche at the top end, and move out a bunch of the cheaper shrapnel in a wholesale parcel.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Nick777VVV wrote:
02 Sep 2021 06:08

SG couldn't buy the pro bono consultancy they are getting on this thread.

Yes, there is understandable mockery of their (rather silly) own goals, but there is also a genuine desire to try and help the old girl pull through.

Despite the lack of acknowledgement, I'm sure this thread gets read by the SG board.

Will be interesting to see whether any of these ideas get adopted...or whether the head remains firmly implanted in the sand.

I hope not.

No kidding. :) :lol:

I got heavily kicked in the head last week by SG Inc, so these things DO get read. Sadly for them, it does not deter me. Nothing does. :!:

Also sadly for them, I have accurately predicted all their disasters here as they unfolded, from the mad Investment Parcel Schemes, (that may STILL sink them) the obscene 10 MILLION Quid loss BidStart/Rosenberg Internet fiasco, that I warned them of many times here, and in my Stamp Columns, from Day #1 of the clear financial disaster awaiting them, which sold them near zero extra stamps. And many other dopey directions the various boards have taken.

That prize IDIOT Gibbons CEO Michael Hall oversaw many of the above, and the insane purchases or merging, of wine merchants, and antiques dealers, and coin, and autograph companies, other stamp auctions that left fade away, and stupidly buying Murray Payne, and other quite hare brained ideas.

I suspect having me on the Board for the past 10 years might have saved them a million (or ten) quid, but they do know best about how to sell stamps! And MAYBE their share price might still be near the 4 QUID as it was before the recent madness, not just 2 PENCE. Coff. :lol:

I have always strongly championed the BIG PICTURE vision that SG must survive, for the good of the hobby, and will always hold that view.

I was once right on the verge of buying Allan Grant's 10% stake in the company, decades back, and am very glad I did not!

To buy 10% even now, would only cost a bit more than a million quid. Sad. :roll:

I tried once to seriously talk Christoph Gaertner into buying Gibbons, and he just laughed.

This is crunch year. I suspect PHOENIX will dump them like a hot brick if they keep treading water, or going further UNDER water, and just pushing out the same old lame stuck-record - "We are cutting costs, and working smarter, and harder" malarkey, whilst announcing yet another quarterly or annual loss.

SALES are what matters, and blaming everyone and everything else for them NOT making solid sales is feeble. "Boy Who Cried Wolf". PHOENIX for some reason has saved them in recent years, thank goodness, but their patience must be razor-thin right now.

As I recall, their PHOENIX main entry level was at about 10p? So a LSE level of a QUARTER that now will be hurting them severely. Stock markets are booming right now, and if they had their 10 million or whatever quid back, to invest in well run companies they'd be seeing 20%-30% annual returns on those, not just ever increasing losses from SG, and an ever weakening share price.

This was from the GUARDIAN only 6 years ago!

All we have read since then are the same old lame ''we really must do better'' excuses. Report after report after report. :roll:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/marketforceslive/2016/m ... undraising



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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by steevh »

ViccyVFU wrote:
02 Sep 2021 06:27
GB 789 wrote:
02 Sep 2021 03:50
It’s interesting you mention UPA. Their auctions are predominantly ‘owned’ items with only a few additional vendors. They have 1000s of bidders in their excellent sales. SG could do worse than replicate this model by selling off their own stock through SG auctions.

That name still holds some prestige in stamp circles and no doubt they have a substantial collector database to market the auctions too. They could also choose their minimum reserve price to prevent selling too cheaply. They could even be a bit naughty and add a buyer’s premium on to every sale too!
Nope, I think their current auction house is currently the laziest and most arrogant in the world of stamps.
They have absolutely no passion to shift stock. None at all, nada, rien.

If this year goes to plan, they will manage just three general sales, three india, and one online timed.
Results are not superlative either, both against estimates, and with quite a few unsolds.

Look at their upcoming sales:

Image
SG Upcoming Auctions. (Not much in the pipeline! :D ).

Would you consign today, for a possible payout in late November?
..... And that's part of the problem. If they are not getting enough new material in through the doors to dilute their own "sell-downs", then people will start "wholesale ignoring" their auctions.

Best if they partner with someone that can handle high volumes, and knows the lower end of the market.
(And fly under the radar for those disposals).

This isn't the market it was.

In the old days, people beat a path to their door with serious old collections, (usually built up over years with them)

Nowadays, Aussies and I may be online to New York, both counter bidding the same materials, for people in China.

I don't care if its SG or Cherrystone (No disrespect to Cherrystone!!), its time "cash to cash" - that's all there is.

They may have an old black book of "connections", but they have a serious credibility in trust, at present.
.
I have never bought at SG auctions in the past, but was seriously considering giving it a go this past one. I'm no big spender, so don't think I'm under the illusion that my £500 or whatever spend would have made any difference to their financial black hole ...

Anyway, I liked the look of their catalogue, and every lot was going to have a video prior to sale day, but 2 weeks before the sale most of the lots I thought most interesting (large misc. box lots) had videos listed as 'coming soon'. So I waited, checked again, and kept checking. Even the day before the sale -- still no videos.

Even after the sale -- no video!!

How long does it take to make a 1-minute video of a box lot? Even a one minute video done by someone who knows NOTHING about stamps would take not much longer than a minute to make (and some minutes more to upload etc.) -- and would do wonders for buyer interest.

I see what Viccy means about SG 'arrogance' -- you think as buyer (or vendor!) your £500 box lot deserves a video -- think again!

https://auctions.stanleygibbons.com/5925day1-lot-700-collect ... tail&year=

Meanwhile they have time to list 99p items!

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by muttly2011 »

Steevh,
Click the link in the description to see the video.
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Allanswood »

I just watched the video.

But... adding an image to the lot description rather then "video coming soon" is a misleading oversight when the video is actually there.

No wonder potential buyers are chewing bricks and giving up.



Want to sell something???? - SHOW us a picture! Promote the sale!

Put the video link in a font colour that mortals can actually see and read and then click!

Click here to see video


Rocket science.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Aden »

LOL.

99p lots on Ebay.

They haven't got a clue and have been that way for a very long time now.

I won't shed any tears when they go into liqidation.

Some entity may take over the catalogue division but if not, too bad. My 2020 Part 1 will be good for my needs going forward.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by steevh »

muttly2011 wrote:
02 Sep 2021 18:41
Steevh,
Click the link in the description to see the video.
Sorry, its some time since the sale, and I attached the wrong link.

Many of the lots still had no video on the day of the sale.

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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by Global Administrator »

Aden wrote:
02 Sep 2021 18:53

I won't shed any tears when they go into liquidation.

Some entity may take over the catalogue division but if not, too bad. My 2020 Part 1 will be good for my needs going forward.

Thank goodness much of the stamp world is not endowed with your very short term blinkered vision. :roll:
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Re: Stanley Gibbons London share price tumbles ............

Post by timbromania »

As I recall, their PHOENIX main entry level was at about 10p? So a LSE level of a QUARTER that now will be hurting them severely.
Glen, Lombard Odier the previous principal shareholder was in to SG for about 10p a share.
Phoenix only 2.5p.
...a cash injection of £6.2 million by way of the Subscription for 248,000,000 new Ordinary Shares (or such greater number of Ordinary Shares as shall result in Phoenix UK Fund holding a minimum of 58 per cent. of the Enlarged Issued Share Capital) at a price of £0.025 per Ordinary Share (or such lower price per Ordinary Share as results from dividing an aggregate subscription price of £6.2 million by the number of Ordinary Shares actually issued to Phoenix UK Fund), of which it is intended £1.2 million will be ear-marked for the acquisition of trading inventory and the balance will be utilised to discharge transaction expenses, existing creditors and provide working capital. On completion of the Subscription, Phoenix UK Fund will own approximately 58.09 per cent. of the Enlarged Issued Share Capital

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