AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

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AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

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Current Scott Catalogue listing of Austria 2005 €1.25 withdrawn Dali Lama stamp
Had never seen this story before.

We know how hard China can lean on anyone - but I am amazed a country like Austria would wilt!

Anyone have any more of info on this stamp and whether the current Michel catalogue prices it?

Seems VERY cheap to me at today's current level of $A1500 or so, if only 30 or so exist.

A full pane was auctioned last year in Germany.

starling wrote:The Chinese authorities managed to 'convince' Austria to withdraw its Dalai Lama stamp.
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So, they know they can get their way by flexing their considerable financial power. Of course Austria denied this was a political decision, but if you're the victim of stand-over tactics you generally don't readily admit it.

Scott
Agree - China can be thugs when it comes to these things. :roll:

The stamp was printed and all ready to go. Only 30 or so stamps in total are known, and prices are amazingly cheap in my view - $A1500 or so a stamp. Should be over TEN times that.
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"The issue, which was planned on 6 July 2005 on the occasion of the 70th birthday of the 14th Dali Lama, was printed in miniature sheets of 10 copies and had to be withdrawn for political reasons due to the objection of the government of the People's Republic of China."
Felzmann Germany offered the only known sheet of 10 in an Auction last year.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

The first example auctioned in 2008 realised €5,683 = AUD $9,295 at today's rates.

Does the "30 known" include the sheet of 10, or did that leak onto the market. Uncertainty over the number known will drop the price.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

My note is from Scott 2019 so not sure when they updated it for the 30 copies!

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$A272,000 auction price for Germany Hepburn unissued stamp.
These Germany Hepburn unissued stamps - of which there is also a mint sheet of 10 (and quite a few were used on normal mail) gets far more hefty prices.

https://www.glenstephens.com/snseptember10.html

With commissions and taxes, the buyer paid a total of 169,000 Euro (then $A272,000). This realisation easily breaks the price record for a post-war German stamp.

Indeed at the time it was easily a price record for ANY single stamp or even multiple issued anywhere post-war I’d guess.

As a data point, my column recently reported the highest auction price for ANY British Commonwealth QE2 era stamp was achieved this year – and was “only” about $A75,000 for a Cyprus 1960 used 30 mil.

That Hepburn stamp #3, was the star lot in Ulrich Felzmann’s 111th auction held October 5-8 in Dusseldorf, Germany.

Felzmann is not to be confused with the similarly named David Feldman Auctions in Switzerland, who also sells many rare pieces.

The stamp was purchased by Gaby Bennewirtz, acting on behalf of her husband Gerd Bennewirtz, an investment manager and stamp collector - also living in the Dusseldorf area.

Gaby Bennewirtz later told the German press: “he would actually have been willing to pay a bit more.”

It is the most attractive of all the copies, and being on piece with the corner sheet margins, and with a superb dated cancel, is as good a copy as you could ever hope for!

Hence the massive price I imagine. Germans will always pay top money for top quality.

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Gaby Bennewirtz later told the German press: “he would actually have been willing to pay a bit more.”
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by Allanswood »

I'm reading conflicting information.

The stamp looks nothing like any normally accepted Austrian issue - it's all in English, the country and value are far to small, almost unreadable etc.

I've read that the authorities stated that it was just a design idea that didn't reach production and the sample printed were just that, samples.

While others state that China put the heavy on them to withdraw. But withdraw what? A design that had never seen the light of day? It was never released so how did China jump up and down before it was even ready?

Then again, they also said they were just testing a 'new colour' whatever that means.

But that 'stamp' is not really production ready.

The cert says 'no signature' - could that mean, 'not approved' or 'not signed off'. In other words, not an officially approved production ready issue that was subsequently withdrawn?

If most collectors have understood that it was not a ready to go production issue, beyond design stage and not approved, then that may be why the value is so low to buy one.


PS - What does the ghosted hand overprint signify?
Last edited by Allanswood on 13 Jun 2019 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Ulrich Felzmann, Germany, auction 5th to 7th July 2018

The sheet of 10, with creasing in the margin offered at a start price of 4,000 Euros.

Philately - International - 05.07.2018 14:30 #162, Auction - Lot 5340 Est: 4000 Euros Realised: 4000 Euros

https://auktionen.felzmann.de/Auktion/KatalogArchiv?intAuktionsId=601

"Almost 30" examples were circulated before being withdrawn.

Felzmann Auction 7 March 2019
Lot 5329 - corner single - Est 450 R: 510
Lot 5330 - sheet of 10 - Est 4,500 R: [Passed In?]
Lot 5331 - marginal single - Est 300 R: 360 Euros

https://auktionen.felzmann.de/Auktion/KatalogArchiv?intAuktionsId=683
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Felzman, 5 July 2018
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Lot 5340

Felzman, 7 March 2019
Image
Lot 5329

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Lot 5330

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Lot 5331
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Looking at the perf holes at the edges, the two sheets of 10 are different.

Not sure if the second sheet of 10 was passed in or withdrawn etc.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Would be a good idea if a graphics wizz can reconstruct the singles offered so far into a sheetlet of 10, all seem to have a margin attached. :idea:
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

M.Rosenfeld seems to have designed other Austria stamps -
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by satsuma »

Yes. There's more than 60 articles on Austria Posts wiki about the designs of Michael Rosenfeld, but this isn't mentioned.

Also a search on "Dalai", "Lama", turned up nothing and "70th" only turned up 1 item which was not relevant.

It would appear if there was any information, it's been purged.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

The Felzmann lower left corner single (Lot 5329) now appears on Ebay Austria (vendor from Germany) ebay item number 161603942096, Buy It Now US$1,340. (very bad scan!).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Austria-Dalai-Lama-Stamp-for-his-70 ... 1603942096

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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Allanswood wrote:
The stamp looks nothing like any normally accepted Austrian issue - it's all in English, the country and value are far to small, almost unreadable etc.
Looking again at Scott it seems a number of issues at this time are in English only and value and AUSTRIA are often in small font, and some of these are like Heidi Klum are also designed by Rosenfeld. :idea:
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

BDNews.24.com

https://bdnews24.com/world/2005/05/11/austria-scraps-plan-to-produce-dalai-lama-stamp
Austria scraps plan to produce Dalai Lama stamp

Published: 11 May 2005 06:00 PM BdST Updated: 11 May 2005 06:00 PM BdST

Austria's federal post office has abandoned a plan to produce a line of postage stamps honoring the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, a human rights activist who had campaigned for the stamps said Wednesday.

Vienna, May 12 (BDNEWS)- Austria's federal post office has abandoned a plan to produce a line of postage stamps honoring the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, a human rights activist who had campaigned for the stamps said Wednesday.

Heinz Stoff, a Vienna activist, told the Salzburger Nachrichten newspaper he was approached by postal authorities who said they had scrapped the idea of producing the stamps.

Stoff said the post office cited ''substantial interventions by the Chinese embassy'' as its reason for abandoning the idea of a stamp honoring the Dalai Lama, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, according to wire services.

Austria Post AG spokesman Michael Homola told the Austria Press Agency the post office reserves the right to cancel new stamp issues without explanation. He did not elaborate, and officials at the Chinese embassy were not immediately available for comment.

The newspaper said the idea for the stamp first was proposed last summer to coincide with the Dalai Lama's 70th birthday.

The Dalai Lama, who has frequently visited Austria, won the Nobel for his nonviolent struggle against Chinese rule of his homeland. China views him as a divisive force in Tibet, which it occupied in 1951. The Dalai Lama fled Tibet in 1959 after a failed uprising against communist rule.

In 2002, Austria's Graz University gave him an award for his contributions to human rights, an honor the school has bestowed only on a few people, including renowned Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Top marginal single for sale at Briefmarken Strasser GmbH, € 1.495,00

https://www.briefmarken-strasser.com/en/products/shop/cat/be ... l?mobile=0

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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

https://stampcollectingroundup.blogspot.com/2008/06/rare-dali-lama-stamp-to-be-auctioned.html
THURSDAY, JUNE 12, 2008

Rare Dalai Lama Stamp to Be Auctioned

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An extremely rare Austrian postage stamp showing the face of the Dalai Lama is to be auctioned in the German city of Dusseldorf this week. It is said to be one of only 30 of its kind according to a report on the Deutsche Welle website.

The Austrian post office designed the stamp to mark the 70th birthday of the Tibetan leader in 2005, but the stamp did not go into large-scale production.

"There were only a few test prints made by hand, because a new color was being tested," a spokesman for the Austrian post office told German news agency dpa.

The Austrian post office denied reports that political pressure from China had prevented the stamps from going into production. "Many designs are tested and not pursued," the spokesman is quoted as saying.

According to the article, Auctioneers Felzmann maintain there are only 30 of the stamps in existence. The stamp had never before been offered at auction, they said. The starting price for Thursday's auction was put at 4,000 euros ($6,200).
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dali Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Austria Post Spin 3 years after being printed wrote:
"There were only a few test prints made by hand, because a new color was being tested," a spokesman for the Austrian post office told German news agency dpa.
TEST prints by hand of a 4 colour offset print, all perforated and gummed - they must think every one is dumber than dirt!
The story at time of issue wrote:
Stoff said the post office cited ''substantial interventions by the Chinese embassy'' as its reason for abandoning the idea of a stamp honoring the Dalai Lama, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, according to wire services.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Well, yes the "test print" story sounded very dodgy. A face-saving PR story. The influence from the Chinese embassy was reported from very early on.

Has the "30 examples" part been verified? Can the known singles be reconstructed into 1 sheet? With the other 2 full sheets, that would amount to 30 examples. :?:
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by starling »

Global Administrator wrote:
Anyone have any more of info on this stamp and whether the current Michel catalogue prices it?
The Michel Catalogue lists this stamp, but just gives a "--.--" for the price. This usually means there is insufficient price history to establish a price. My edition is from 2017, so that may have changed.

There is also a version with Frankatur - Ungütlig (invalid for postage) stamped in a circle at lower right. This is also listed in Michel, again, no price.

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This was the best pic I could find. The sheetlet of 10 is available from https://www.briefmarken.co.at/ for 15,000 Euros.

I don't know what the story behind this version is though.


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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Thanks Scott -- can I trouble you to type the exact wording that Michel uses please?

That press ''Specimen'' sheet or so it it looks like, makes the PO claim look even more BS than it first looked!

It was all ready to be issued it seems pretty clear.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by starling »

Global Administrator wrote:Thanks Scott -- can I trouble you to type the exact wording that Michel uses please?

That press ''Specimen'' sheet or so it it looks like, makes the PO claim look even more BS than it first looked!

It was all ready to be issued it seems pretty clear.
Image


This is the entire entry in my 2016 Michel Austria Specialised catalogue for the Dalai Lama 70th Birthday issue. No explanation as to why it was withdrawn or quantities.

Kleinbogen = Sheetlet
Nicht ausgegeben = Not issued
Aufdruck = Overprint

The rest should be pretty self-explanatory.


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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Perfect, thanks Scott. :mrgreen:

That led me to this DIFFERENT numbered ''Specimen'' block to the one you show - -
Image
Sold by Gartner in 2012 for 5700 Euro plus fees - say 20% or so = 6840 Euro or $A11,100 on today's rates.

https://stamp-auctions.de/lots_en.php?LISN=276523&Pic=0
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

And to a discussion on these in German language for anyone who might be able to read it and summarise it briefly here what the story was.

https://www.philaforum.com/forum/index.php?thread/20745-dala ... /&pageNo=1

And a WARNING to all, the ebay spivs and shonks and lowlifes are forging these things already - :roll: :roll:
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https://www.ebay.de/itm/Faksimile-Osterreich-Dalai-Lama-2005 ... 7675.l2557
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Allanswood »

The German forum is easy enough when you press translate, but they talk about the original, and then the proposed, but also refused personalised stamps and then the forgeries and finally the overprinted sheets with numbers.

They say 'don't buy a real one without a cert' as many ebayers are selling fakes, mentioned or not.

An auction house named "Rapp" was mentioned as saying they believe there are about 20 of the original clean print sheets around, which seem to have been given to politicians/dignitaries as 'gifts', another had suggested maybe 100 sheets instead of the often quoted just 3 sheets.

Of the overprinted sheets quantities vary, but no one named what the last number on the sheet might be. The overprints are invalid for postage. Being 6 digits though would mean up to 99,999 sheets? But if there had been that many made, then they would be everywhere.

I guess the low, flat prices of the first genuine's might be because no one really knows yet just how many there are, even 10 years later.
Last edited by Allanswood on 13 Jun 2019 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Allanswood wrote:The German forum is easy enough when you press translate
Us Hillbillies that use low end browsers like Microsoft Edge and Mozilla Firefox have no such magic buttons. :)
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Allanswood »

Sorry thought it was pretty well generic by now, not just in Chrome. But the forum discussion is 9 pages long.

Edit: using MS Edge, '---' (top right) then Extentions, then Translator for Microsoft Edge (it's Free and very small), install, turn on, German is now English.


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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by satsuma »

There's an extension for edge which is a translator. Click on Settings then extensions choose translator download then launch. Mind you the English is shonky but better than nothing.


Oops. Allanswood got there first :!:
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

starling wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Thanks Scott -- can I trouble you to type the exact wording that Michel uses please?

That press ''Specimen'' sheet or so it it looks like, makes the PO claim look even more BS than it first looked!

It was all ready to be issued it seems pretty clear.
Image


This is the entire entry in my 2016 Michel Austria Specialised catalogue for the Dalai Lama 70th Birthday issue. No explanation as to why it was withdrawn or quantities.

Kleinbogen = Sheetlet
Nicht ausgegeben = Not issued
Aufdruck = Overprint

The rest should be pretty self-explanatory.

Scott
Seems like Michel have listed the sheets at 8000 Euro each from the 2017 Edition, now prices have settled -
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Global Administrator wrote:And a WARNING to all, the ebay spivs and shonks and lowlifes are forging these things already - :roll: :roll:
Image
Given the simplicity of the design of colours, I wondered how long it would be until these were forged and sold on ebay. Not not it turns out. :idea:

In a rather delightful ironic twist, it is not the mindless Chinese drones that are forging these en masse as usual, as they would get shot. :|
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Is there information re the quantities sold of the version with Frankatur - Ungütlig (invalid for postage) stamped in a circle at lower right.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

MJ's pet wrote:Is there information re the quantities sold of the version with Frankatur - Ungütlig (invalid for postage) stamped in a circle at lower right.
Well neither version were ''SOLD'' to anyone of course by Austria Post.

All VIP freebies or media Specimen type stamps it seems.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

Well yes. "Quantities leaked out" I mean.
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Re: AUSTRIA 2005 Withdrawn €1.25 Dalai Lama stamp discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Can't be many - precious few have been offered globally of either stamp, over 13 years.
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