Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Perf 11 1/2 only on Type 3 & 6.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Excellent. Is this a new addition in the Arge AM Post handbook?

Post any other interesting plate flaws that you cannot identify. I will be glad to try to find a match and establish if it is a constant plate flaw.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

maptrekker wrote:
10 Oct 2020 02:17
Excellent. Is this a new addition in the Arge AM Post handbook?
I don't understand your question. The 'T' error is not in Krogmann nor in the Arge AM Post 4pf catalog.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Then I didn't understand your answer correctly: "Perf 11 1/2 only on Type 3 & 6."

I thought you were citing Krogmann / Arge AM Post handbook.

You must be referring to sheets in your possession.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Sorry. The additional info that only Type 3 and 6 have the 11 1/2 perforation is in the Arge AM Post 4 Pfg catalog. Krogmann didn't mention what perforation combinations are found on each sheet type.
Krogmann noted 12 sheet types but the research for the 4 Pfg catalog determined 1 and 7, 2 and 8, 3 and 9, 4 and 10, 5 and 11, 6 and 12 were the same type. So only 6 types now. They were printed on one 6er Druckbogen.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Printing

Post by maptrekker »

So it appears that all of the 4pf stamps were printed using one Druckbogen, z paper, and a mix of 11 and 11½ perforator rows both horizontally and vertically. That generated all four perforation types listed in Michel.

Then it is reasonable to assume that if a 4-pf plate flaw or plate flaw set can be fixed to a Bogentype/position, that plate flaw / plate flaw set can only exist in one perforation combination.

I am really going to enjoy digging into this.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by Preach »

The first stamp and the last stamp in the 4 column and second in the 5 column
The first error is mentioned in the Krogmann Catalogue: Little fleck from the border to the P. Typ 6 Field 54😀
The other two I am on the search for.....Dot above the P and dot on the oval above the H

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Nice block Preach. Field 54 and 94 are listed in Krogmann catalog as well as Field 65 - dot in lower right ornament.

I also have noted Field 55 with white dot on small M (Teilauflage?) and break in trellis left of G. The dot over the P is also on my copy.

The Krogmann field 94 error may be a Teilauflage. It is very small on one copy I have, and pronounced on 2 other copies.
94 detail.jpg
I look forward to when Arge AM Post puts out the 50 Pfg catalog to see how detailed they treat this denomination as there are several other plate errors on other fields.

Attached are 3 other blocks you can compare with.
Attachments
54-95.jpg
54-95 3.jpg
54-95 2.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by Preach »

Wow Thank You. That clears a few things up... :D

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Mi 32 Perf 11. Is this a case of being over-inked?

Mi 32 Brunswick Perf 11 Overinked.jpg

Close-up:
Mi 32 Brunswick Perf 11 Overinked Closeup Lower Left.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by johnrcrow »

2020 the launch.

John

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by Preach »

Oops sorry..had a practice run, all sorted now. Many Thanks 😃

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

maptrekker wrote:
11 Oct 2020 06:38
Mi 32 Perf 11. Is this a case of being over-inked?

I am unsure. It could be plate wear, over-inking, plate pressure or a combination.

Your example appears to be type 2, color variety schwarzgrün, Krogmann noted field 19, dot in left I.

I have two examples. One being with more wear(?).
19n.jpg
19b.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

It seems to me that plate wear would occur in the areas where ink is to be applied. The numbers, letters and decorations are without ink. Such wear would cause the numbers, letters and decorations to become thicker and white spots would appear where the wear took place.

Overinking and pressure (ink squeeze) would cause the numbers, letters and designs to become thinner and colored spots would appear where they are not supposed to be. I think that is what is occurring here.

Comparison with a normal stamp:
Mi 32 Brunswick Perf 11 Overinked Comparion to Normal Stamp.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

I have been looking at the Krogmann handbooks.

Not much explanatory text so translating it should not take long.

The images are excellent. No need for descriptions of the plate faults.

Some of the entries are cryptic. Tomorrow I will identify some plate faults and get a better sense of what the handbooks contain.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Maptrekker- That was a quick delivery. I'll be glad to help with any questions you will have. You may find that some illustrations are incorrect. For instance left 16 illustrated with the error when it is the right 16. First N rather than 2nd N, etc. Not that many really. Overall, indispensable.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Not listed in Krogmann nor the Arge 4 Pfg plate error handbook - position 63 with a mark in upper right ornament, Q7 with perf 11 1/2 and another copy 11 1/2 x 11. This position was identified by field 64 break in lower left ornament E17, a Multifehler occurring on all sheet types (1-6). A full sheet I have, Type 3, has the field 63 and 64 errors. It may also occur on type 6 but I do not have this sheet.
63-74.jpg
63.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

johnrcrow wrote:
08 Oct 2020 23:56

Here are a number of Brinswick printings where the position can be established.

Any flaws please do tell.

Scan 6. Break in white line to the right of 2nd D of DEUTSCHLAND


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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

I cannot find a match for this plate fault nor for the 4pf position 63.

Michel sometimes indicates that a plate flaw is found in a "Teilauflage" -- "partial editon" in the English-language Michel. To me that means the fault developed after the plates were made.

I do not see any indications of plate faults being in "partial editions" in the Krogmann handbooks.

Could it be that Krogmann and the Arge AM Post only list plate flaws that existed at the time the plates were made? That would explain why the 4pf position 63 dot in ornament and the damaged "T" are not listed. We do know that at least two of each exist and therefore are constant plate flaws.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

maptrekker wrote:
14 Oct 2020 07:53

I do not see any indications of plate faults being in "partial editions" in the Krogmann
Krogmann notes on the 10 Pfg Type 7 field 9 a 'T'; 12 Pfg Type 29 field 99 as well. Just a quick glance through a few values.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Thanks. I see them.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

johnrcrow wrote:
09 Oct 2020 00:01
Scan 7.

Image

This is the "broken nose" variety termed by Arge. Upper left serif on large M broken or stunted. At work now but I recall it occurs on several positions on one(?) type. Uncertain if it would be considered a Teilauflage or a Druckzufälligkeit. Krogmann also notes several types on the 5 Pfg with deformed letters. Your example also shows many specks, some collectors refer to this as 'dirt'. It would be interesting to see if they are constant or whether they progressively get worse. Many sheets would have to be compared to come to any conclusion.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Another copy of the "broken nose" perf 11x11½.

There is a nice white dot to the right of the "I" in the left "PFENNIG" among others.

Krogmann lists it under Type 4 Position 5 +. I take it that the "+" means additional positions.

Mi 19Bz Typ 4 Pos 5+.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

maptrekker wrote:
15 Oct 2020 05:40
Another copy of the "broken nose" perf 11x11½.

There is a nice white dot to the right of the "I" in the left "PFENNIG" among others.

Krogmann lists it under Type 4 Position 5 +. I take it that the "+" means additional positions.


Image
I believe the "+" in Krogmann's catalog indicates another plate error on this position. He uses x-y position indicators on some fields though. He usually just re-illustrates the plate error if it is on another type.

The 5 Pfg gets quite confusing as Arge AM Post renumbered the plate types. They found there were 2 Druckbogen of 3 horizontal panes making 6 types in all. Krogmann's type 4 was found to be the same as type 1. Krogmann's type 5 was found to be the same as type 2. His type 6 same as type 3. Krogmann's type 7 is now designated as type 4. Krogmann's type 8 is now type 5 and his type 9 is now type 6.

Arge AM Post notes a number of Teilauflagen (Druckzufälligkeit?) on Type 1 as Variant I or II.

If you translate Krogmann's intro to the 5 Pfg he does say he was not certain.

Arge notes the broken nose appearing on type 4 position 54 as a Teilauflage Variant II and on Type 3 Fields 94, 95 and 96 as Teilauflage.

I believe your used example is Field 95 Type 3. The line to the left of the right P is noticeably constricted; small dot in upper left ornament at E9: small M in middle below is short.

I only have a poor resolution scan of an inscription block but it even shows small dot to the right of left I as in yours.
IB.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Field 95 Type 3 by itself
95.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Wow. So Krogmann is just the beginning of this magical journey.

If I understand correctly, the original example you identified is now: Type 1 field 5 +

I will really need to absorb this information. Can I ask two questions?

Krogmann indicates a type 10. Where does that fit into the new numbering?

What are the Type 1 Variants I and II? ...variants caused by Teilauflagen as time went on? Something like the original plate and then a "damaged" plate?

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Glad you find it more magical than frustrating. I hope my explanations aren't too confusing as I am still trying to decipher it myself.
JohnCrow's example I just noticed is position 9, not 5! The Arge handbook notes this error also on positions 5 thru 10 on type 3!

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

maptrekker wrote:
15 Oct 2020 11:06
Wow. So Krogmann is just the beginning of this magical journey.

If I understand correctly, the original example you identified is now: Type 1 field 5 +

I will really need to absorb this information. Can I ask two questions?

Krogmann indicates a type 10. Where does that fit into the new numbering?

What are the Type 1 Variants I and II? ...variants caused by Teilauflagen as time went on? Something like the original plate and then a "damaged" plate?
I am going to go through my notes and re-examine my sheet types as I have them listed with the old Krogmann type order. I also better re-translate Krogmann's intro as well as the Arge reasons for the reordering and reasons for Variant I & II, but your reasoning is along my understanding.

When Arge reworked the 5 Pfg in 2010 they put out an APB for any member with a Type 10 sheet type. I guess no one had one so the 3 errors Krogmann notes were anomalies??? Mysterious as well as magical. LOL!

I only did well in school when I reread the lessons at least three times and these lessons are in a foreign language which I have but a basic understanding of.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

The three 5pf plate faults Krogmann shows as being from type 10 are not repeated on the other types.

Therefore they may well be from an additional type.

Unfortunately I have no 5pf blocks so I cannot go any further in that direction.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Thin trellis lines are noted by Krogmann and Arge on most denominations. Not sure how this occurs but it seems to be the opposite of over-inking described by Maptrekker in previous post. The ornaments, letters and numbers also appear to be thicker.
thin.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Note all the while spotting in the color fields.

I think it is an under-inking caused by insufficient ink and/or insufficient pressure.

The missing ink along the inner and outer borders of the letters, numbers and designs make them appear wider.

The missing ink in the trellis makes the colored white lines appear thicker and the colored lines correspondingly thinner.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Mi 28Az Type 1 corner block with red Bogenzähler.

I gather from Krogmann that the press sheets containing types 1-3 were printed in August and September of 1945 and have red Bogenzähler.

The press sheets containing types 4-6 were printed in November of 1945 without Bogenzähler.

That fact and the F9 plate fault pretty much define it as type 1.

Mi 28Az Typ 1, 4 PF F9 in UR Corner Block.jpg

Closeup of F9 with nick in second "N" of right "PFENNIG"
Mi 28Az Typ 1, 4 PF F9 from UR Corner Block.jpg

Mi 28Az Type 1, 4 corner block with plate fault F89.

Mi 28Az Typ 1, 4 PF F89 in LR Corner Block.jpg

Close-up of F89 with colored spot in upper left ornament
Mi 28Az Typ 1, 4 PF F89 from LR Corner Block.jpg

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Germany AM Post 5 Pfg Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Interesting block from a Joe Bush Reconstructed plate page showing positions 1-16. The left positions have the thin trellis characteristics while the right positions have extreme extra ink bleed. It is from Type 2 having the Michel noted plate error on position 3, line break right of right G.
1-16.jpg

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Germany AM Post 5 pfg Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Better image Left vs right
1 11 6 16.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

A copy of type 2 (Krogmann type 5) field 48 perf 11x11½ indicated by the plate fault.

Break in the line to the right of the space between the "N" and the "I" of the left "PFENNIG"

That would make it one of the right-hand stamps as you illustrated.

Mi 19Bz PF T2 (Krogmann T5)  F48 Overinked.jpg

A comparison to some other stamps.
Mi 19Bz PF T2 (Krogmann T5)  F48 Overinked Comparison.jpg

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Germany AM Post 5 Pfg Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

If you check Krogmann catalog, this error on position 48 is also noted on his Type 8 (Arge Type 5) though somewhat smaller. It is also in the Arge handbook on Types 2 & 5 but neither are noted with additional plate errors.

Here is field 48 from my Type 2 sheet. It has the Leitfehler on position 27. I do not have much from a type 5 sheet for comparison.

The different shades of green amaze me.
48.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Things are starting to click into place.

Arge AM Post says that Krogmann Types 2 and 5 are really one type.

Krogmann illustrates the F48 flaw on his Type 2 and a larger F48 on his Type 5.

So these flaws actually get bigger over time!

That makes identifying faults like this on individual stamps much more difficult in that the faults can change over time.

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Germany AM Post Wandering Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Interesting occurrence on this Krogmann noted Teilauflage plate error on Type 6 and 12, Field 14. Krogmann illustrates this as a large white dot on top ofthe S but you will see on these examples it likes to travel. The AM Post Arge has not published a 24 Pfg handbook yet.
3 14s.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Type 5, 11 Field 70 colored spot on "S" of "DEUTSCHLAND"

Mi 27 PF T5, 11 F70.jpg

Type 4, 10 Field 48 clipped upper horizontal in "F' of left "PFENNIG"

But it also looks like it has the colored spot on "S" of "DEUTSCHLAND"

Mi 27 PF T4, 10 F48.jpg

Comparison of the bottoms of the two stamps. It appears that the spot on the Field 48 stamp is just a result of over-inking.

Mi 27 Comparison.jpg

Over-inked example showing the "dirty" spots all over.

Mi 27 Overinked Dirty.jpg

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Germany AM Post 25 Pfg Plate Error Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

This plate error is not in Krogmann's catalog. It may be a Teilauflage but it is on all three sheets I have on position 81, Type 3/6. White dot and line lower left on left 2.
81.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Interesting. Since Krogmann says he looked at over 40,000 sheets it is strange this would be missed. I'll bet his notes, if they still exist, would be a gold mine of information.

Do your sheets have Bogenzähler? That would indicate if you are looking at Type 3 and/or Type 6.

The presence or absence of Bogenzähler would also provide some other information. For example, if the plate fault appears on both the August/September and November printings, it would be less likely that the fault was just a Teilauflage.

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Germany AM Post 25 Plate Error Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Good points. Two of my sheets are without BZN. The other is missing the tenth column.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Hold the presses! Krogmann does associate sheet types and perforations.

According to the SCHALTERBOGEN section, the 25pf
- type 3 has a 4-digit red Bogenzähler and is perf A (11) or C (11½x11)
- type 6 has no Bogenzähler and is perf B (11x11½)

That's enough to determine which type(s) has the plate fault.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

I have 2 singles having this plate error and both are 11 x 11, meaning they appear on the earlier and late print runs so less likely it is a Teilauflage :!:

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

What is the perf of your type 3/6 sheets?

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

It appears I only have one complete Type 3/6. It is 11 x 11 1/2.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

From what I can gather, a Type 3/6 sheet perf 11x11½ is Type 6; Type 3/6 perf 11 is Type 3.

So it looks like the plate fault occurs in both printings and may well be more than just a Teilauflage.

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by 2 a.m.post »

Most Likely.

Druckzufälligkeit - break in line under T of DEUTSCHLAND (once) with inscription and margin bars thin (three times but different intensities). There is a small constant flaw - small white dot in 3rd margin bar und 'm'. I wonder if they progressively get worse or better?
Attachments
94c.jpg
94.jpg
94b.jpg
94a.jpg

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Re: Germany AM Post 1945-6 Plate Errors Brunswick Printing

Post by maptrekker »

Perf 11x11½ and no sign of the Type 1/4 F84 and F94 plate faults.

Must be Type 2 or 6.

Mi 28Bz PF White Dot in Margin Bar Under m of amps.jpg

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